Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer View Post
Depends how early you hit it. I usually come in at level 11 or so for a non-troll, and almost always end up with a weapon and armor upgrade unless I've already found a killer weapon. You will almost always find at least one eternium 2-hander or halberd there, and a piece of armor with 8 or more PV. The golems aren't all that risky if you've got teleport control and halfway decent stealth. It's not like you're actually fighting them or anything.
I'll go around level 15, having done the pyramid already, and obtained +TCtr from blink dogs and the wand from VDDL. The armor is virtually never worth giving up the AMW (a bit more PV in exchange for the intrinsics?); with weapons I have slightly better luck. Of course you won't fight the golems at this point, but they might clutter the up staircase.

Something that makes me feel a bit better if I lose a PC that made it that far, is thinking I might actually have better DF loot with my next character

Worst is ghost kings, greater daemons, and unicorns, IMHO, because they can wander the level and trap you easily. Ancient dragons can be a problem too, I suppose.
Ghosts of any kind can't see invisible as far as I know. Ancient dragons can, except the karmic kind. I've had the audacity to make one of those pick up my gold while wearing a ring of invisibility, then bombard them with magic missiles.

Well, DV has an upper limit of effectiveness. I don't know exactly what it is, but some hits will always go through.
An interesting excerpt from the official changelog:
The internal mechanics for the melee and missile combat system have been rewritten to use different mechanics: attacks no longer need to surpass the DV of the opponent on a roll of 1d20 + bonusses but rather 1d(20 + bonusses) is rolled to surpass the DV value. This adds some randomness to combat (no longer will there be automatic hits in all cases). Also monster hit bonusses (at high levels) have been increased to counter the 'a DV of X is enough -- you'll never need more' effect observed in recent versions. Everyone still has a 5% chance to score an automatic hit (actually the chance is slightly higher, especially for extremely powerful monsters, but that's the baseline).

Greater molochs always pierce armor, IIRC
Wow, is that so? I thought they only punched through armor a lot.

Quote Originally Posted by sytar6 View Post
o_O All? I'm not sure what my success rate is with DH, but I know it's pretty much the only place that kills me after I've gotten a bit into the caverns of chaos. I mean, if the game has thrown me some magic map, invis, darkness, monster detect, DIGGING (to get around those "unavoidable" tension rooms) etc. I'm somewhat likely to make it, but it is far from guaranteed. Just feels like the area has a much larger degree of RNG dependentness than any other part of the game. I'm not just talking about the stairs and the monsters that spawn. I'm talking about the magic map, invis, etc. you're provided. With some classes it's definitely a lot more RNG dependent than others, imo. Though it is pretty notable if literally all your characters get the DH without problem. I haven't been playing for very long, but I've had a handful of DHs that were essentially impossible without some pretty substantial resources, like on demand teleportation.



Oh. Well that explains it. DH is very friendly to wizards by that time unless you've gotten ridiculously unlucky.
Well, I do have at least some potions of invisibility and controlled teleportation at that point. Also I'm not saying I've never ever died there, but those were occasions when I was playing recklessly or didn't care about that specific character (trying to melee a mixed tension room under darkness or deliberately entering while doomed and being critically hit by a titan quarrel spring to mind), i.e. definitely avoidable. With a character I was serious about, I don't recall dying, although there were some close calls. Again, I'll usually have the above-mentioned equipment, plus luck and Fate smiles from the ankh and enough piety for emergency healing.

Taking the wizard thing apart, teleport control is semi-guaranteed in the game, the wand is guaranteed. If you have magic mapping and monster detection on top of that, why can't you map the level, check which monsters are around, then teleport to the stairs if they're safe?

GM's are jokes IMO. As Silfir enlightened me, once you get the rune covered trident, you can pretty much melt their faces off without any resistance. It gives like +15dex? With some moss training it up to 27, 15 added on to that, and random bonuses you might have gotten from eating a quickling, potion of dexterity, PoGA, or something, you should be able to smack it two or three times, step back, then come in for the finishing blow. Hm. Wait, you play mages. Damn, don't know what you're supposed to do there. There's only so much slaying ammo in the world. Although I do think that Titans and Greater Titans can mess you up even if you're a fighter with executor/skullcrusher/vanquisher. Luckily they're slow as hell, so you can just kind of ignore them nearly all the time.
Sadly I'm a Candle fanatic, so the trident would arrive no earlier than level 36. When I can use the same tactic but from afar with magic missiles instead. They shrug bolts off somewhat often, but in time, you can clear a tension room of molochs by just bolting and taking distance as necessary. Just make sure you don't fumble and hit the wrong key when casting the spells...

Perhaps I'll try this. Only thing that would worry me about this strategy is what would happen if you started with a character with very low Wi (as in single digits). You'd be confused forever by Dopplegangers, the ACW, the Archmage. My troll started with 8 Wi. Pretty much anything with mindcraft is going to completely destroy him. What's the workaround for that?
You can train with Garth, and of course you also have PoGAs and potions of willpower. To specifically resist confusion attacks you can wear a helm/rings of mental stability, or rings of the clear mind, all of which grant resistance (the intrinsic).