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Thread: Two Questions: Kitty Karma and Game Difficulty At Beginning Versus End

  1. #1

    Default Two Questions: Kitty Karma and Game Difficulty At Beginning Versus End

    First things first. I was playing a trollish barbarian. He has really hilarious stats. This is how he got rolled:

    St: 38 Le:1 Wi:8 Dx: 13 To: 31 Ch: 8 Ap: 2 Ma: 4 Pe: 11

    Somehow after drinking Thrudarr's potion of literacy he got 63 literacy off the bat. Wat?
    Anyway, since this guy had no musical abilities whatsoever and seemed like he was on the brink of starvation, the first few cats the game threw at me I simply killed with impunity. I'm level 8, and my kill log says I've killed 3 cave lions and 5 cave tigers. The weird thing is, up until around the 7th cat kill, I never got any message about the cat's spirit doing that thing where it rises up and plunges pathetically or whatever. When I reached my 8th cat kill, I finally got that message. I hadn't been crafty about killing the other cats. I just berserk'd them in the face. Do you not need to get that message about the cat's spirit rising up and plunging pathetically to have ruined your kitty karma? I always thought that was how you were supposed to know that you weren't getting the ring of the master cat.

    Second question:
    Does nobody have an issue with the pacing of the game? The most hardy character I've rolled was a drakish fighter. I usually like to play with archers, wizards, thieves, and assassins. The beginning for those classes (although less so with archer) is really tough. You can die at any moment. This barbarian seems to just roflstomp through everything in the beginning of the game. Regardless of class, though, it seems like the game peaks in difficulty around the time you get Thrundarr's quest to see the other side of the Dwarven Halls or Animated Forest. Both are deadly without the proper items. Without invisibility or controlled teleportation, you might make it to the other side of the animated forest, but good luck getting back. All the hostile trees are waiting for you at the stairs. Going through the Dwarven Halls is the biggest crapshoot possible. If you don't have controlled teleportation, invisibility, magic mapping, or something, you're not going to make it. Sometimes even with invisibility and magic mapping you won't make it. My last Barbarian had shit in the way of scrolls/wands and wasn't going to make it through the animated forest. He got swarmed by a horde of teleporting hostile Unicorns last game. It seems like when you get to that quest, there's a very, very strong incentive to raid darkforge - a pretty cheap tactic in my opinion. I feel like I'm cheating when I raid DF. Without those items, though, going through the Dwarven Halls feels like I'm completely at the mercy of the RNG god. The difficulty ramps down for a bit once you've gotten through (or really, lucked your way through if you don't employ any scummy item generation methods) the Dwarven Halls. The Tower of Eternal Flames is tough, but really not that bad if you disable the ACW. Between the Dwarven Halls and the ToEF, leveling comes to a virtual halt.

    After the tower, though, the rest of the game becomes a complete cakewalk compared to the beginning of the game. For some reason you start gaining levels at an absurd rate. It's not unusual for some enemies to give you multiple levels. In most video games, the later levels come slower than the earlier levels. In ADOM, for some reason, levels 1-10 come incredibly quickly while levels 10-20 come at an unbelievably slow rate. Levels 20-50 you can pile on in the span of an hour or two. To me, that's a serious pacing issue. Sometimes, after beating the ToEF, I kind of lose the will to keep playing. It feels like I've won. The casino shouldn't exist. It gears you up in an absurd way that takes all the challenge out of the rest of the game. Even without using the casino the rest of the game is still a cakewalk. It's incredibly rare to lose a character once you've beaten the ToEF, unless you do something stupid and essentially suicide yourself. I feel like the game post-ToEF needs to be just as challenging as the beginning of the game.

    I know I'm new to the community. I also know that I don't know shit. These are just my thoughts, and I expect some pretty intense criticism of them - which I don't mind. I'd love to hear your perspectives. Especially people like Soirana, Gut, Grey, Silfir, Jellyslayer, anon123, etc.
    Last edited by sytar6; 05-01-2012 at 03:19 AM.

  2. #2

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    Minor correction about my cat killing record.

    Before I got the message about the cat's soul plunging pathetically, I had killed

    3 Cave Lions
    4 cave tigers
    3 Wild Cats

    That brings me up to a whopping TEN cat murders. It was only as I murdered the eleventh cat that I got the message about its soul plunging pathetically or whatever. This seems really, really odd. Usually I get that message after I kill my very first cat and then never again. What gives?

    edit
    I started googling this question, and I found the following in an FAQ:
    "Not getting an obvious message doesn't mean your Kitty Karma is unstained; it just means your character didn't notice the negative effects of their actions. "
    http://www.adomgb.info/adomfaq.html#3.5.2

    Is it possible that your learning or perceptions stats influence whether you note your loss of kitty karma?
    Last edited by sytar6; 05-01-2012 at 04:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sytar6 View Post
    Do you not need to get that message about the cat's spirit rising up and plunging pathetically to have ruined your kitty karma?
    It's based on a perception check. I think happens pretty much all the time if Pe >20. Regardless of whether you fail the check or not, your kitty karmic is ruined.

    Quote Originally Posted by sytar6 View Post
    Second question: Does nobody have an issue with the pacing of the game?
    Your perception here is pretty much accurate. It depends a little bit on character--squishy characters with low starting To and PV like thieves, mindcrafters, non-BUGWIL casters are very likely to find the beginning of the game very tricky and will die very frequently, and will find the game gets steadily (or, in the cast of power casters, quickly) much easier. Personally, I feel that the difficulty of the game decreases dramatically as soon as you find a stable supply of morgia. Doubling or tripling your HP is a real game-changer for most characters. I don't notice a particular hump around the DH/AF quest, myself, although, I normally sidetrack at that point to do the Griffyard, Pyramid, and Darkforge raid if I can. I almost always do DH if I can--as long as I've got a wand of monster detection and a wand of teleport, I'm fairly confident I can get through (having 110 or more speed helps too). If there's a bad tension room or one that I can't avoid, then I'll grudgingly do the forest. With dual shields and coward, it's not so bad, and it's downright easy with invis or darkness. Just tedious. You may find things slowing down a bit as you progress with your troll, since the leveling rate is going to start to hurt in the late teens, and other classes/races will surpass you. There's also the ever present danger of a ghost lord killing you in 1 hit.

    There's a difficulty spike around the ToEF, although it depends a lot on how much time you've spend grinding and how lucky you've been with resources. Some characters, it's a cakewalk. If you've had bad luck with weapons, it can be a bit of a gong show. I normally consider the game won once I'm passed the ToEF, although the cat lord and Archmage can still kill high level PCs if you aren't careful. Or if you have really bad luck and hit a threat room of emperor liches or great black wyrms or something. But overall, yeah, the post-ToEF game is much, much easier. Your character is strong, you have a lot of resources at your disposal, you've got sources of invisibility, speed enhancements, and controlled teleportation. Also, you don't spend a lot of time on each level--in the endgame, unless you're clearing a vault or temple, your goal is normally to simply find the stairs ASAP and descend. It just isn't worth looking around because the experience from random mobs isn't worth it compared to big scores like the cat lord and the Archmage.

    I blame it partly on the way danger levels work. At DL 50, it draws from a random pool of monsters ranging from rat to emperor lich, but there's only maybe 5-10 monsters in the pool that are actually dangerous, so the chances of running into many strong monsters even at high DL is pretty low. If it heavily weighted stronger monsters as you increase in depth, I think that would increase the challenge. Nerfing darkness and invisibility would help too... and maybe a couple more uber-monsters would be nice. I'm still waiting for the wall-walking ghost vortex that adds 1000 years of aging when it blasts you.

    Although all that said, I've had the odd character--again, typically one with bad luck with gear, lowish stats, or poor class abilities like a druid--to have a really difficult time in the endgame.
    Last edited by JellySlayer; 05-01-2012 at 04:28 AM.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  4. #4

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    Hm, doing the Griffyard before the DH seems like it would boost your chances of success by an incredible margin. Feel like you're not supposed to know about the portal until you've seen the other side of the DH/Animated Forest, but it sure doesn't feel as shitty as raiding DF. The main issue with getting through the dwarven halls is having resources like magic mapping, invisibility, digging, teleportation, monster detection, darkness, etc. at your disposal. If you're like me and rush herbalism at the lowest possible level so you can get through the SMC into the UD (avoiding the ID), the resources you have by DT are a total crapshoot. My last troll was not going to stand a damn chance against the animated forest, and you'd be pretty hard pressed to get the resources you'd need to get past a horde of teleporting unicorns. They weren't locked in a room or anything. They just kind of spawned in a horde out in the open. Moment I saw them they flanked me. Had no way to get out and was dead in a few hits. If I'd done the Griffyard, things most likely would have gone much differently. Maybe hit up the Puppy Cave for the vault on the last floor while you're in the neighborhood. Guess that should fix my temptation to raid darkforge. Feel like this advice will really help my survivability. Besides the snake traps I mention later, my #1 and #2 sources of death are trying to get through the SMC after rushing through the DD, and trying to get the Dwarven Halls. The latter more than the former.

    Also, on some level, I rather suicide my character than going through the Animated Forest. Even Thrundarr warns you that it's "tedious". The AF was designed to be an incredible pain in the ass. As in, Mr. Biskup sat down and said, "How can I make a level that will instill in the player a depth of boredom usually only reserved for Chinese assembly line workers?" I will not let my video games be tedious. Hell no. I rather die than do the AF. I'm glad those unicorns killed me. Gotta say that I feel like there is way too much RNG factor to the DH. There should be some things that can't show up. Emperor Liches. Balors. Greater Molochs. And especially fucking Unicorns. Actually, I'm alright with Molochs and GMs. They're slow. You can teleport them away. A horde of ultra powerful enemys that my alignment doesn't allow me to kill which can teleport? I was okay last game with the diamond golem tension room and death oozes. Teleporting near insta-killers that see invisible and in darkness? Lame. Very very lame.

    I will say that I used the ID for training when I played as my thief. I had cleared the first two levels of the DD and the first level of the PC (can't deal with the ants) but I swear I was still losing half my life to giant bats and getting murdered by rats. The SMC wasn't even close to an option. A bit of fighting on ID:1 and ID:2 just to maybe get a shield (why do thieves refuse to find shields?!) and something marginally better than a standard studded leather armor seemed required. Any attempt at the UD would have almost definitely met in failure. Biggest threat for a low level thief? Snake pits. You fall in. Pit vipers flank you.

    You miss the pit viper. The pit viper hits you. You are poisoned! The pit viper hits you. You are poisoned!
    /look in inventory for a potion, scroll, wand, pickaxe, anything that can get you out of this jam...nope, nothing.
    You miss the pit viper. The pit viper hits you. You are poisoned. The pit viper hits you. You are poisoned! You die...


    As a random aside, I love how you can kind of ID things based on the price shopkeepers will give you for it. No altar until DT? No problem, Leggot and Barnabus to the rescue!
    Last edited by sytar6; 05-01-2012 at 05:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sytar6 View Post
    First things first. I was playing a trollish barbarian. He has really hilarious stats. This is how he got rolled:

    St: 38 Le:1 Wi:8 Dx: 13 To: 31 Ch: 8 Ap: 2 Ma: 4 Pe: 11

    Somehow after drinking Thrudarr's potion of literacy he got 63 literacy off the bat. Wat?
    With Learning at one? I guess the skill score you get doesn't depend on your stats after all.

    Anyway, since this guy had no musical abilities whatsoever and seemed like he was on the brink of starvation, the first few cats the game threw at me I simply killed with impunity. I'm level 8, and my kill log says I've killed 3 cave lions and 5 cave tigers. The weird thing is, up until around the 7th cat kill, I never got any message about the cat's spirit doing that thing where it rises up and plunges pathetically or whatever. When I reached my 8th cat kill, I finally got that message. I hadn't been crafty about killing the other cats. I just berserk'd them in the face. Do you not need to get that message about the cat's spirit rising up and plunging pathetically to have ruined your kitty karma? I always thought that was how you were supposed to know that you weren't getting the ring of the master cat.
    The official ADOM FAQ states that killing just one cat is enough to forfeit the reward under any conditions, and that the reader is a fool to believe otherwise just because the message wasn't displayed.

    I recall reading something about the check to see the spirit rising from the ground depending on a Listening skill roll, rather than anything else - which would also explain why you get the full message if you kill a cat in a dark room and/or blind, for example. Anyway, you can say goodbye to the RotMC and hello to an angry cat lord (on the bright side, he can be disabled, and will give a nice chunk of XP when killed).

    Second question:
    Does nobody have an issue with the pacing of the game? The most hardy character I've rolled was a drakish fighter. I usually like to play with archers, wizards, thieves, and assassins. The beginning for those classes (although less so with archer) is really tough. You can die at any moment. This barbarian seems to just roflstomp through everything in the beginning of the game.
    The only race/class combination I've "seriously" played in ADOM so far is dark elven wizards. You have a tough early-game indeed, starting with 1 PV and often sub-par physical stats. This is why I usually go to Terinyo, then Holeinthewall to identify some gear and get Pick Pockets, then spend a lot of time in the ID leveling up, getting PV and spellbooks. I'd rather "overprepare" (if there's such a thing) than die - my number one rule when playing is having fun, and collecting items in this fashion doesn't spoil it (actually I'd say it's a bit more exciting, because you don't have tons of identify and uncursing scrolls, holy water from altars, etc. like later in the game, and must resort to creative means of "uncursing" armor for example ).

    I recall trying elven archers and trollish barbarians/beastfighters to see what all the fuss was about, and they're also very powerful in their own ways (archers have ridiculous bonuses, enough to one-shoot most early game enemies; trolls can do the same in melee and are sturdy, often having 7+ natural PV), but I missed things I always have with my wizards, like magic (obviously), Ventriloquism, or Literacy. I know it's not good to refrain myself to a single combo, but at the same time I don't choose other options because of not having the "expertise" of playing them. It's a sort of vicious circle. Nonetheless I hope I can provide some useful feedback on your question.

    Regardless of class, though, it seems like the game peaks in difficulty around the time you get Thrundarr's quest to see the other side of the Dwarven Halls or Animated Forest. Both are deadly without the proper items. Without invisibility or controlled teleportation, you might make it to the other side of the animated forest, but good luck getting back. All the hostile trees are waiting for you at the stairs.
    I used to take the animated forest route long ago. Hostile trees weren't a problem with Coward tactics and dual-shields. I hear they don't see in darkness either. The biggest nuisance was actually waiting for a route to clear. There's just too many trees in there, as it is logical.

    Going through the Dwarven Halls is the biggest crapshoot possible. If you don't have controlled teleportation, invisibility, magic mapping, or something, you're not going to make it. Sometimes even with invisibility and magic mapping you won't make it. My last Barbarian had shit in the way of scrolls/wands and wasn't going to make it through the animated forest. He got swarmed by a horde of teleporting hostile Unicorns last game.
    If you have any blessed scrolls of familiar summoning, you can read them here to get an uber-pet that can help you dispatch troublesome monsters, or at least delay them while you run away. I usually do this on DH2 as SoFSs don't see much use with my playing style otherwise. Greater earth elementals are nice.

    It seems like when you get to that quest, there's a very, very strong incentive to raid darkforge - a pretty cheap tactic in my opinion. I feel like I'm cheating when I raid DF.
    You shouldn't. It has its risks (namely, steel golems) and good rewards aren't even guaranteed, as in most of my games. You should actually be happy you get good stuff, and that takes me to the following point...

    Without those items, though, going through the Dwarven Halls feels like I'm completely at the mercy of the RNG god.
    I don't agree. I get mostly crap in Darkforge, yet all my "serious" PCs always take the DH route and manage to get through alive, if I don't do something stupid like attempting to completely explore both levels when I've already found the down stairs. I'll use invisibility from the spell, cloaks/rings, or potions if I have a source (potions of invis are probably the most common ones), set Coward tactics, and take this segment of the game a bit more slowly, so it could be skill. I haven't found a tension room of greater molochs between me and the down stairs so far, so it could be luck, but it's possible.

    After the tower, though, the rest of the game becomes a complete cakewalk compared to the beginning of the game. For some reason you start gaining levels at an absurd rate. It's not unusual for some enemies to give you multiple levels. In most video games, the later levels come slower than the earlier levels. In ADOM, for some reason, levels 1-10 come incredibly quickly while levels 10-20 come at an unbelievably slow rate. Levels 20-50 you can pile on in the span of an hour or two. To me, that's a serious pacing issue.
    I've noticed that's true, specially if you have any greater vaults generated.

    Sometimes, after beating the ToEF, I kind of lose the will to keep playing. It feels like I've won.
    That's a common source of YASD. You should never think that you've seen everything, can kill anything, or generally play recklessly, because the RNG will be happy to prove otherwise. Besides, the game obviously doesn't stop there. There's still a lot to explore after the ToEF and that's one of the things that personally keeps me going - you've dealt with one of the biggest dangers in ADOM, yes, but you still have 3-4 more temples, the lower CoC and unreal cave system to go, assuming you don't want to go to the minotaur maze, bug temple, library, or maybe do an ultra ending?

    The casino shouldn't exist. It gears you up in an absurd way that takes all the challenge out of the rest of the game. Even without using the casino the rest of the game is still a cakewalk.
    It's incredibly rare to lose a character once you've beaten the ToEF, unless you do something stupid and essentially suicide yourself. I feel like the game post-ToEF needs to be just as challenging as the beginning of the game.
    It isn't exactly ridiculously easy either. You'll be more resourceful, but shouldn't get too overconfident. The other temples have their own share of nuisances. The Chaos Archmage is a frequent PC killer, for example. Also, you're deep in the CoC at this point and never know what the RNG will throw at you either. You should read some of the untimely deaths at the hall of fame to know how it's still possible to die at this stage of the game.

    A small spoiler: it IS true that you're never safe no matter what. I once hacked a character with 10000 DV and PV, among other outrageous values, to test some stuff. Turns out greater molochs can still hit, and hard, with such ridiculous protection, and the monster memory reflected their new ability to hit for 5-digit figures.

    I know I'm new to the community. I also know that I don't know shit. These are just my thoughts, and I expect some pretty intense criticism of them - which I don't mind. I'd love to hear your perspectives. Especially people like Soirana, Gut, Grey, Silfir, Jellyslayer, anon123, etc.
    Yay, I'm famous!
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    nothing better than hearing "I'd offer ye 1785 gold fer that crude spear..."

    Regarding game-pacing, just ignoring all herbs helps to balance the game tremendously.
    If one skips all scumming of any kind (ID, herbs, extensive monster killing sessions,
    pick pocketing, casino, etc...) the late-game remains challenging. I like having the
    option of scumming, as that is its own kind of fun, and can easily be ignored.
    Last edited by gut; 05-01-2012 at 05:24 AM.
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

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    Quote Originally Posted by anon123 View Post
    If you have any blessed scrolls of familiar summoning, you can read them here to get an uber-pet that can help you dispatch troublesome monsters, or at least delay them while you run away. I usually do this on DH2 as SoFSs don't see much use with my playing style otherwise. Greater earth elementals are nice.
    They're handy in the ToEF, I've found. About half the monsters you will generate will be fire immune, and a titan, ancient karmic dragon/wyrm, balor, etc. can drop the ACW in 1-2 rounds. Back when I was playing doomed a lot, I used this quite frequently to get underpowered PCs passed the Wyrm.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon123 View Post
    You shouldn't. It has its risks (namely, steel golems) and good rewards aren't even guaranteed, as in most of my games. You should actually be happy you get good stuff, and that takes me to the following point...
    Depends how early you hit it. I usually come in at level 11 or so for a non-troll, and almost always end up with a weapon and armor upgrade unless I've already found a killer weapon. You will almost always find at least one eternium 2-hander or halberd there, and a piece of armor with 8 or more PV. The golems aren't all that risky if you've got teleport control and halfway decent stealth. It's not like you're actually fighting them or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon123 View Post
    I haven't found a tension room of greater molochs between me and the down stairs so far, so it could be luck, but it's possible.
    Worst is ghost kings, greater daemons, and unicorns, IMHO, because they can wander the level and trap you easily. Ancient dragons can be a problem too, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by anon123 View Post
    A small spoiler: it IS true that you're never safe no matter what. I once hacked a character with 10000 DV and PV, among other outrageous values, to test some stuff. Turns out greater molochs can still hit, and hard, with such ridiculous protection, and the monster memory reflected their new ability to hit for 5-digit figures.
    Well, DV has an upper limit of effectiveness. I don't know exactly what it is, but some hits will always go through. Greater molochs always pierce armor, IIRC, so 10000 PV doesn't matter. If you tried the same test on killer bugs, you'd find them also doing 10000 damage per hit, according to the monster memory.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  8. #8

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    The Chaos Archmage is a frequent PC killer, for example.
    You know, I was going to edit in a blurb about archmage deaths essentially being suicide by overconfidence. If the Archmage death rays you, then that was a retarded death that you seriously brought on yourself. If you let a gorgon petrify you, you probably brought that on yourself. If you smack one of the orange eyes with a bunch of monsters around, you brought it on yourself. If you fight stone oozes and mimics without paralyzation resistance, you brought it on yourself.

    I've never died at the Archmage before. You almost certainly have a wand of stunning. You might even have a wand of paralyzation. Wands of light? Definitely. You should have been saving unholy waters and cursed scrolls of uncursing to make cursed invisibility potions to disable him with if you've got nothing else, which is spectacularly unlikely. I have died to the floating eyes, though. Besides starving to death and being crushed by luggage, that's pretty much the only thing that's managed to kill me after the ToEF.

    I get mostly crap in Darkforge, yet all my "serious" PCs
    o_O All? I'm not sure what my success rate is with DH, but I know it's pretty much the only place that kills me after I've gotten a bit into the caverns of chaos. I mean, if the game has thrown me some magic map, invis, darkness, monster detect, DIGGING (to get around those "unavoidable" tension rooms) etc. I'm somewhat likely to make it, but it is far from guaranteed. Just feels like the area has a much larger degree of RNG dependentness than any other part of the game. I'm not just talking about the stairs and the monsters that spawn. I'm talking about the magic map, invis, etc. you're provided. With some classes it's definitely a lot more RNG dependent than others, imo. Though it is pretty notable if literally all your characters get the DH without problem. I haven't been playing for very long, but I've had a handful of DHs that were essentially impossible without some pretty substantial resources, like on demand teleportation.

    The only race/class combination I've "seriously" played in ADOM so far is dark elven wizards.
    Oh. Well that explains it. DH is very friendly to wizards by that time unless you've gotten ridiculously unlucky.

    A small spoiler: it IS true that you're never safe no matter what. I once hacked a character with 10000 DV and PV, among other outrageous values, to test some stuff. Turns out greater molochs can still hit, and hard, with such ridiculous protection, and the monster memory reflected their new ability to hit for 5-digit figures.
    GM's are jokes IMO. As Silfir enlightened me, once you get the rune covered trident, you can pretty much melt their faces off without any resistance. It gives like +15dex? With some moss training it up to 27, 15 added on to that, and random bonuses you might have gotten from eating a quickling, potion of dexterity, PoGA, or something, you should be able to smack it two or three times, step back, then come in for the finishing blow. Hm. Wait, you play mages. Damn, don't know what you're supposed to do there. There's only so much slaying ammo in the world. Although I do think that Titans and Greater Titans can mess you up even if you're a fighter with executor/skullcrusher/vanquisher. Luckily they're slow as hell, so you can just kind of ignore them nearly all the time.

    Regarding game-pacing, just ignoring all herbs helps to balance the game tremendously.
    Perhaps I'll try this. Only thing that would worry me about this strategy is what would happen if you started with a character with very low Wi (as in single digits). You'd be confused forever by Dopplegangers, the ACW, the Archmage. My troll started with 8 Wi. Pretty much anything with mindcraft is going to completely destroy him. What's the workaround for that?
    Last edited by sytar6; 05-01-2012 at 05:49 AM.

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    Getting a bunch of unicorns in the DH is monstrously unlucky. There's really nothing you can do about that. Unless you can get to the stairs in 1-2 turns of spotting them, you're probably dead.

    Thieves are the hardest class in the game (except maybe a really badly gimped bard). Don't feel bad if you die with them. You will. A lot. Best bet is play a hurthling, get your heir gift and true berserk until you can find some rocks.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

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    I'm pretty sure you guys will hate me for this, but I insisted on getting Treasure Hunter instead of the heir gift. I honestly think it is the one that that improves early game survivability the most. Maybe that's just all in my head. But after I get TH, I see a huge room of rats or something and I think "hell yes, I'm almost definitely going to get armor better than this [+0, +0] clothes. Maybe a shield better than my...oh wait I don't have a shield. And perhaps something better than a (+0, 1d8) Scimitar (40s)." Seems pretty normal to have a few iterations of the character die if you're playing a thief. Feel like TH just makes you wait a few less iterations. Eventually one of those thieves will find a shield, goddamnit. I mean, the heir gift is amazing and all, but I'm way more interested in having a large or tower shield than I am a nice knife that is gimping the shit out of my DV to cut through my low level enemy's nonexistent PV.

    One thing that could be said for thieves though is that they have amazing potential. My last thief found skullcrusher on D:4. I'm blaming TH for that drop. Then two Greater Giant Vaults later, executor. The class power that stuns on every critical hit? Yeah, that became insane. Shit, throw a PoCC and melee Nuurag-Vaarn if you want.
    Last edited by sytar6; 05-01-2012 at 06:15 AM.

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