Are you guys happy now? - game getting ultra-hard-core now

[Alucard]

Unfortunately, I think it's p3 where (a) all altars tend towards lawful and (b) dual wielding shields and walking into someone crashes the game.

[tootboot]

Unfortunately, I think it's p3 where (a) all altars tend towards lawful and (b) dual wielding shields and walking into someone crashes the game.

Ouch, forgot about that one. Well, nix that idea.

[Mobius]

Isn't part of the whole 'beta' cycle to try out the new game balance, see if it's crazy, possible, etc.

So let's do it. See if the game is do-able with new stat potential rules. Granted, it's hard with new releases coming out rapid fire...
But approach it with some view to finding (and communicating well) when the game difficulty has crossed from 'hard and fun' to 'impossible and frustrating'

And that means we better be testing the 'boring old classes and races' because they better be fun to play still. Yup. Testing code is work, and it gotta get done.

So when do we get a mithral anvil for Mist Elven weaponsmiths?

[gut]

> I actually believed that TB would read them and chuckle. Didn't think he'd take some of the seriously!


I have made comments almost exactly like this on irc. I somehow refrained from
mentioning them on any official channels though, as I am not dedicated to having
things my way. Like you, I also worried that 'bugs' wouldn't be sifted through
properly before 'fixing' them, but rather just tweaked upon request. I am not so
worried about that anymore though, as I consider Biskup to be quite protective
of ADoM, and wouldn't allow permanent changes that take the game in a direction
he doesn't want. Let us keep in mind that all of these are PRE-releases.

[JellySlayer]

And that means we better be testing the 'boring old classes and races' because they better be fun to play still. Yup. Testing code is work, and it gotta get done.

Good point. I'll roll a couple grey elf thieves this evening.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Someone asked why we hadn't commented on the RFEs when they were made. I looked through a few pages of them a year or so back, and I actually believed that TB would read them and chuckle. Didn't think he'd take some of the seriously! Also bear in mind that ADOM was supposed to be a finished work... until this summer started.

Why would TB chuckle at the RFE's? Do you really think that when he coded stat potentials, he really meant them to be totally meaningless? Or that when he coded the Banshee, he was thinking about the possibility of taking her to the AF? Or that when he coded gremlins and pickpocketing, he was thinking about bombing? Or that when he coded the casino, he was thinking about infinite gold with no drawbacks at all?

Come on, all those are clearly unintended effects. Most of those things were probably never meant to be possible, they were only possible due to oversights.

My impression is that some of you have adapted and construed your gameplay around the oversights and limitations of version 1.1.1, which was around for ten years. Self-delusion made some of you think that those things were intended or not bugs (I've even read people in the forums thinking that dragon gold doubling was intended, when it was an obvious bug as was later announced - any coder would tell you).

And now that those oversights and limitations are fixed, some of you feel uncomfortable. I can understand that but I do think that you need to move on and embrace the changes ("adapt" is not a bad word in a game, it's fun!). And I do think that if you funded a resurrection of development, you should have been prepared for changes. We didn't gather $90K just to fix the ingot bug.

I hope I don't sound too harsh, but I honestly think you were highly deluded thinking that bugs, exploits and unintended features were intentional and wouldn't be changed. The delusion is so strong that you even seem to think (reading between the lines of some posts) that TB is thoughtlessly implementing RFE's in a whim. When it's obvious that TB has a vision for the game (has always had it) and implements the RFE's that fit that vision, just as he's rejecting some others.

By the way, if you really want to play a stable version with the old scumming methods, I think 1.2.0p4 is your version. It was very stable, it was around for some time and as far as I know no one reported any crashes on it.

[Qui]

I think it's important to point out exactly how overpowered were 7lbs and herbs disregarding potentials.

Seven league boots(blessed): best boots in the game, no question. And by far. Effectively doubling movement speed, which trivializes many encounters, allowing to run away from/kite most things. A prime candidate to use a wish for for many players. And guess what? They probably still are the best boots in the game (I'd still pick them over Divine Messenger or whatever that's called), and probably still will be wished for. Just running away/kiting will be a bit slower. Also, to put it into perspective - Long Stride talent. It gives 1/10 effect of old lbs, or 1/5 of new. And personally I still find it very useful. Makes running away from things easier.

Herbs: now, ADoM is all about finding random things and utilizing them. But exactly how much use can you get out of a nice, 2x2 square with morgia and moss? Depends on your character. Let's consider a PC with Dx=15, To=15 and Wi=15. In this case it's +10 to 3 stats, +30 in total. I don't think there's any artifact giving that much. Now consider an (un)lucky PC with Dx=10, To=10 and Wi=10. +15 to 3 stats, +45 in total. Nothing gives that much. It's like 5 blessed PoGAs. And I didn't even take into account fooling around with potions of exchange and things like that. And, surprise, the herbs are still powerful. Just not as much, but I don't think gaining +20 from them will be uncommon. Also, potions of potential <stat> might finally get some love - raising a potential of a herbable stat will be quite beneficial.

[gut]

> Come on, all those are clearly unintended effects.

Biskup knew of (most of) those before updates stopped. I can personally
remember chat about casino gold exploit as far back as gamma 15, and there
were many updates after that. He never chose to fix any of those known
'bugs' back when he was still fixing even typos. Things like dragon $
doubling, on the other hand, were discovered after updates stopped.

> The delusion is so strong that you even seem to think (reading between the lines of some posts) that TB is thoughtlessly implementing RFE's in a whim


Maybe this is just my delusions talking, but I seem to remember Biskup
saying he isn't so good at playing ADoM, so it is not unreasonable that
he would take on faith advice from the community about what is
'unbalancing' ADoM (especially if there aren't counter posts to argue).
Anyway, it was my understanding that j.t. is doing much of the current
ADoM coding on the pre-releases.

[Carter]

Casino gold has been around since at least gamma 12. Its nothing new, and the new release doesn't change it anyway.

[mike3]

> Come on, all those are clearly unintended effects.

Biskup knew of (most of) those before updates stopped. I can personally
remember chat about casino gold exploit as far back as gamma 15, and there
were many updates after that. He never chose to fix any of those known
'bugs' back when he was still fixing even typos. Things like dragon $
doubling, on the other hand, were discovered after updates stopped.

> The delusion is so strong that you even seem to think (reading between the lines of some posts) that TB is thoughtlessly implementing RFE's in a whim


Maybe this is just my delusions talking, but I seem to remember Biskup
saying he isn't so good at playing ADoM, so it is not unreasonable that
he would take on faith advice from the community about what is
'unbalancing' ADoM (especially if there aren't counter posts to argue).
Anyway, it was my understanding that j.t. is doing much of the current
ADoM coding on the pre-releases.

Which is not necessarily the same as doing it just "on a whim". He could still use what he does know, and also the knowledge he has as the game's designer, in making a decision despite not being the best ADOM player in the world.

Also, as for the first point, about Biskup not implementing it earlier: Two things -- one, he could simply just have not gotten around to it (not thought it too high a priority), two, just because he may have a "vision" for the game doesn't mean that that vision is not subject to change and alteration as time goes on. Indeed, I'd expect it, as a matter of fact.