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Thread: Is ADOM too rooted in an older generation of Roguelikes?

  1. #1

    Default Is ADOM too rooted in an older generation of Roguelikes?

    I was just thinking, while all the changes that have been made are great for us that already know and love the game, almost nothing has been done to make it more accessible to a new generation of players. If/When the game goes up on Steam it's going to be directly competing with more recent entries to the genre or meta-genre like Dungeons of Dredmor or Faster Than Light. How will ADOM fare when it still requires you to memorize a large number of individual key commands to play? I'm not at all convinced than adding a nice tileset and music is all it's going to take to prepare ADOM for Steam.

  2. #2
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    The tileset will probably help. A nice HTML manual would be nice (and not just for people new to the genre, but for every new player). But if you ask me all Adom needs is a tutorial. Something to get you past the whole how do I enter a dungeon, how do I buy from shops thing without having to read the manual and FAQ before your first ten deaths. I read the manual - the whole thing - in the first days since picking up the game, but I realize I might be showing my age there. If the manual and FAQ were all you needed, Adom would probably be already set - but you also need patience. A good tutorial would help those with less patience deal with the complicated keyboard interface until the Adom bug gets into them. I believe in this game's potential to lure people in after the first moments. It was my first roguelike, I had no experience in the genre, and it hooked me. I think it can hook crpg fans alright, and roguelike fans even more. So perhaps we ought to tell Jochen his idea of a tutorial, perhaps a playable tutorial (even better) really is a fine idea.

    On a totally unrelated note, I wonder if permadeath avoidance will be an optional feature of Adom Deluxe, and if so, how will the savegame mechanics be implemented. I shudder at the thought of ever using such a thing but I'm curious. Will they go the "savefile not deleted after death" route or the "restore a previous save at any point" route? I hope they go the first one - honestly, the possibility of "go back in time" savegame restoring is one of the most boring, grinding features of commercial games. The general gaming public is already used to the lack of time machine savegames because of games like Diablo.
    Last edited by aerol; 02-25-2013 at 08:14 AM.
    Playing since gamma 10, when necklaces looked like &s. Lithium man. Brass + Lithium. OCG. Illiterate barb. One race and one class to go.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerol View Post
    The tileset will probably help. A nice HTML manual would be nice (and not just for people new to the genre, but for every new player). But if you ask me all Adom needs is a tutorial. Something to get you past the whole how do I enter a dungeon, how do I buy from shops thing without having to read the manual and FAQ before your first ten deaths. I read the manual - the whole thing - in the first days since picking up the game, but I realize I might be showing my age there.
    The thing is, the only reason it occurred for you to look for/read a manual is because you've been gaming long enough to remember paper manuals. For the most part there's no such thing anymore, and I don't think your average person buying a game on Steam is nosing around 3-4 sublevels deep in the Steam directory looking for one (generally there isn't one anyway). Commercially released games are generally expected to be intuitive enough to learn by doing, or at least by doing the tutorial. Something like Crusader Kings II is considered a fairly difficult game to get into, and that's with a mouse-driven interface and helpful tooltips everywhere.

  4. #4
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    Presumably the tileset is going to introduce mouse-driven movements, at least to some extent, no? At least, that's what I've always assumed. I think that will actually help a lot in introducing it to new players.

    I agree a short tutorial could help people, though, and would be pretty cool to have.
    gate closers: GeWi GnMo(unarmed) DeAs/Pa/Mi(staves)/Ra GePr DrBb HrMo | p7: MeBf | p17: GnPr | p20: DrDu GnAs DeCk MeWp OrBf GnTh MeHe | R57: MeDu | R101: DrAs (26,674 turns) GnDu (26,748) DrAs (18,533)
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  5. #5
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    IMHO, there is no such a thing like an intuitive game interface. Remember Mass Effect or Gothic? All this fast-mouse-clicking games put you in the need of remembering actions. Sure, was it ever possible to run through the game w/o an hour to get familiar with it mechanic? And here I mean only FPSs and so on, there actual gameplay takes no more than one ore two dozens hours. Comparing with actual k/b oriented games like Starcraft or C&C, ADOM doesnt hit top positions of complexity. There is no rush for time, since game is turn based, there is no multiple units to control and ofc, its k/b layout is pretty much more familiar than NetHack one (Quaff , and Put on/Remove commands, Repeat # rounds... arghh). And last but not least, ADOM gameplay is much more than just two nights of another fantasy story about saving the world. If one had no force to remember hotkeys, he'd hardly ever start playing Roguelikes)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    This is a gameplay challenge, not an exercise in tedium.

  6. #6
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    I'm hoping there'll be interface improvements in future, but it does seem a challenge. Modern roguelikes have come a great distance in retaining complexity whilst streamlining the input immensely. With some aids at least ADOM could at least let people pick up and play easily enough, even if the more obscure commands take a bit of dedication.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tootboot View Post
    The thing is, the only reason it occurred for you to look for/read a manual is because you've been gaming long enough to remember paper manuals. For the most part there's no such thing anymore, and I don't think your average person buying a game on Steam is nosing around 3-4 sublevels deep in the Steam directory looking for one (generally there isn't one anyway). Commercially released games are generally expected to be intuitive enough to learn by doing, or at least by doing the tutorial. Something like Crusader Kings II is considered a fairly difficult game to get into, and that's with a mouse-driven interface and helpful tooltips everywhere.
    I do remember paper manuals from my older brother's Sierra/SSI games, but I don't remember ever actually reading one - I just read manual.doc because it was right there in the Adom directory after I unpacked the zip file. I started playing Adom when I was a young teenager (I'm 29 now). I still think a tutorial can help bridge this high initial learning curve.
    Playing since gamma 10, when necklaces looked like &s. Lithium man. Brass + Lithium. OCG. Illiterate barb. One race and one class to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    I'm hoping there'll be interface improvements in future, but it does seem a challenge. Modern roguelikes have come a great distance in retaining complexity whilst streamlining the input immensely. With some aids at least ADOM could at least let people pick up and play easily enough, even if the more obscure commands take a bit of dedication.
    This is a bit problematic. Sure, you can go Brogue way with 'a'ction for all(well, almost) interactions. But you can't avoid some more intricate commands getting lost (at one point brogue forums discussed tossing 't'hrow, leave it as default action for darts/javelins and skip all together for rest). Buuut... do we want to throw away dipping? Nethackers would skip engraving? Sure you can get rid of most keybindings (w=s in Brogue for example is quite a good example of this, unless blinded/stunned/...), group the ones that share common base (wipe face/clean ears...), then again, a lot would be lost (lore knowledge... you don't swallow all herbs, some are better pressed/rubbed instead of digested which a single 'u'se command would not allow). Cataclysm does a good job of having not-that-many-keys to memorize while retaining different possibilities. Probably worth starting a separate thread

  9. #9
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    If you ask me the problem is not memorizing ALL commands (time spent playing is enough for this to happen and the keybindings can be consulted at any time), but learning the basic commands in the initial stages of playing the game so that you can get on your way.
    Playing since gamma 10, when necklaces looked like &s. Lithium man. Brass + Lithium. OCG. Illiterate barb. One race and one class to go.

  10. #10
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    Honestly, I think the #1 interface problem with ADOM isn't the keybindings, it's the [more] prompt. It makes certain parts of the game (spider factories, Mana Temple...) almost unplayable, and a lot of the game extremely frustrating. A solution would be to redesign the interface to have a special "notifications" tab that you could scroll through, but by default would show the last 3 or 5 messages, and most importantly, *not* impede gameplay. Having to kill 50 spiders and press spacebar 2 or 3 times a turn for 100+ turns is just terrible.

    Other than that, I'm completely behind the tutorial idea. Have it made into several sections:

    1. Movement and item interaction. (pick up, drop, kick, open and close doors, inventory, traps)
    2. Combat, monsters, and tactics. (how to fight, ranged and close, how to set tactics, PV and DV, armor, the 'l'ook command)
    3. Magic and Mindcraft. (Books, scrolls, potions, wands, gems, reading and casting, concentration, etc.)
    4. Skills, herbs, and pools. (picking locks and pockets, detecting traps, application of various skills, etc.)
    5. Towns, shops, and quests. ('c'hatting, paying for items, the quest log, haggling)
    6. The wilderness. (different sorts of terrain, climbing, climbing sets, wilderness encounters, survival, bridge building)

    That should be enough to make anyone a proficient ADOM player. You could maybe have an "advanced" tutorial with all the other miscellaneous crap (like smithing), but by that point they'll be hooked anyway and it'll be too late.

    FWIW, I'm 24, and fondly remember reading game manuals as a kid. Before I would even install the game I would read it from cover to cover - I really miss that.
    Last edited by Dogbreath; 03-08-2013 at 03:03 AM.

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