Dwarven paladins and the unremarkable dungeon?

[quik]

Not really reaching the HMV but getting a waterproof blanket and possibly some nice items through the UD.

[Grumbledwarfskin]

Well...I've now lost Artum to that vault on level 10.

I'd leveled up to 14 in the ID so I could get precrowned, and was planning to sacrifice creatures from that vault to help get the piety needed...it turned out to be a mixed vault, not a quickling one, when I poked my nose in via the opposite entrance.

Everything was going pretty smoothly, seemed all the creatures were cleared out from the first room, decided to grab the silver wand lying on the floor that I'd been wanting to get my hands on for a while.

It was a master mimic, and stepping next to it was game over. In the future I'll have to be a bit more paranoid about items in vaults that I didn't see drop.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

What is the benefit of reaching the HMV so early in the game?

As quik said, it's not so much reaching the HMV as going through the SMC and UD. What's the benefit?
- The fun: it's just much more fun than starting in mediocre dungeons like the VD or DD.
- The loot: a waterproof blanket, and good weapons from the UD vaults. Typically you have a couple of adamantium weapons when you hit the HMV, which will take you to the early game nicely.
- The selection: if you have a weak character, you'll likely die early. On the other hand, if your character survives the UD, he is likely to make it through the early game without breaking a sweat. No more losing time doing several early-game quests, just to end up killed by a throng of spiders in the Big Room or something like that.
- The risks: you can usually pool-sip if you're into it. Early pool-sipping is the best pool-sipping, for the same reason as above: if things get terribly wrong as they are wont to do, you won't lose a character in which you've invested much time. But if you're lucky, you can get some really nice intrinsics.

[grambert]

I always do UD runs. With a dwarven paladin it's not hard, you just have to know your UD.

Some tips:

- It's well known that you shouldn't get too many levels in the SMC. But you'll increase your survivability if you get at least to level 3 or 4 before going down into UD:1. At level 1 or 2, it's not hard to find a monster or trap in UD:1 that one-hits you.
- Get missiles ASAP, even if it's rocks. They'll help against karmics, and they'll help soften tough monsters.
- Do orc, gnoll/hyena and undead vaults, with dwarven paladins it shouldn't be too hard (if you're careful and run when on low HP) and you'll get lots of loot. Loot is good and helps you survive.
- Don't try weapons if you don't have a means of curse detection and they don't seem (by their weight) like mithril or adamantium. You will surely get some mithril or adamantium weapons in your UD trip, especially if you do vaults, so it's not worth risking ending stuck to a cursed standard iron spear. Only try mithril or adamantium weapons (or eternium if you're lucky to get one, which is possible in the UD too).
- Avoid mixed vaults and mixed tension rooms unless you're very confident that the generated monsters are safe (but that will seldom be the case). Stuff like werewolf lords can be generated in mixed tension rooms and vaults of the UD, werewolf lord at that level usually means death.
- Don't walk around with low HP because the UD has an above average trap generation rate.
- I usually explore levels 1 to 6 thoroughly (unless I find mixed vaults or mixed tension rooms). With levels 7 and 8, the DL starts to get a bit hairy and you might want to skip parts of those levels if you find yourself unsafe, although with dwarven paladins there shouldn't be too many problems if you're careful... just scout and if you see something like a quickling tension room, don't engage.

how do you know what is in a vault until you open it? how do you know its a vault when you go to a door?
I am having success with a drakeling paladin in UD. I do it to find an altar to get crowned. it takes me about an hour or so to get crowned at level 7 or so since you get more for offering lower level mobs at low levels. its made easier if the altar is on a high level since I can go coward run to Cave and get higher level mobs to follow me. Took offering 1 mob to convert a chaotic altar to neutral.

another huge advantage to drakelings early on is the spit. This does NOT seem to be affected by tactics. So I can go coward and spit. works for aging attacks and other hard stuff. It can also hit 2-3 mobs with 1 shot in a row. I do this with Candle.

btw, with a paladin you get a holy symbol, so if you are resting you should pray for piety. one prayer should take you from starving to satiated.

[SirTheta]

There is no quickling vault.

[anon123]

how do you know what is in a vault until you open it?

Zap a non-cursed wand of monster detection, or read the equivalent scroll. Also, if you hear certain sounds (distant wind, hurumph) but can't find the corresponding monsters on the part of the level that isn't a vault, you can know it's a mixed one.

how do you know its a vault when you go to a door?

Vaults are always located in a corner of the map, and have special designs. Once you get familiar with the designs, you'll know how to locate them. For example, certain designs will be connected to a staircase room (if generated above or below one) through a long corridor on the side.

[grambert]

As quik said, it's not so much reaching the HMV as going through the SMC and UD. What's the benefit?
- The fun: it's just much more fun than starting in mediocre dungeons like the VD or DD.
- The loot: a waterproof blanket, and good weapons from the UD vaults. Typically you have a couple of adamantium weapons when you hit the HMV, which will take you to the early game nicely.
- The selection: if you have a weak character, you'll likely die early. On the other hand, if your character survives the UD, he is likely to make it through the early game without breaking a sweat. No more losing time doing several early-game quests, just to end up killed by a throng of spiders in the Big Room or something like that.
- The risks: you can usually pool-sip if you're into it. Early pool-sipping is the best pool-sipping, for the same reason as above: if things get terribly wrong as they are wont to do, you won't lose a character in which you've invested much time. But if you're lucky, you can get some really nice intrinsics.

The small cave spawns monsters twice your level after you clear the first level. Also look up UD, it has a high rate of special areas spawned. I generally find an altar. If its not my gods altar, its easy to convert at low levels. I also found that its easy to get Crowned by just offering mobs at low levels since how much piety you get for offering mobs is relative to your level and the mobs. Plus if the altar is on the upper levels of the UD you can run up to the small cave, go coward and get much higher level mobs to sacrifice, increasing piety gain and quality drops on the altar. Plus an altar is real helpful for BUC so you can test out new weapons/armor, etc... easier.

The biggest reason is that taking a risk early and dying is not that bad. You didn't spend alot of time. HMV is nice due to the second shop. So you get to ID more items. You can pick up the items and bunch them up to improve respawn rate. Downside is that sometimes there is a Giant Lord and you are dead at low levels if you fight it. I recommend going straight for the exit when you get there. Search for hidden doors and open them. Before going to the shop and possibly killing and eating the oracle (you get stat bonuses, if you upped your piety at an altar you can do this and then just get rid of the doomed with a prayer).

It is annoying to get all the way to HMV, get to crowned then get cornered by the giant lord and die. If you go for crowned its about an extra hour or so to get to it. So your looking at wasting your initial 2 hour investment time.

[grambert]

Zap a non-cursed wand of monster detection, or read the equivalent scroll. Also, if you hear certain sounds (distant wind, hurumph) but can't find the corresponding monsters on the part of the level that isn't a vault, you can know it's a mixed one.



Vaults are always located in a corner of the map, and have special designs. Once you get familiar with the designs, you'll know how to locate them. For example, certain designs will be connected to a staircase room (if generated above or below one) through a long corridor on the side.

is this in the gudie? I didn't see it.

[anon123]

increasing piety gain and quality drops on the altar.

Sacrificing a monster on an altar doesn't yield any death drops or corpses - only items the monster was carrying or had equipped. In 1.2.0, this behavior was changed to allow dropping guaranteed artifacts as well.

is this in the gudie? I didn't see it.

It's just my personal experience, although I believe the Guidebook does give similar advice.

[Grumbledwarfskin]

Personally, I couldn't care less about the HMV, it's not like I'm going for an ultra, though getting to ID a few more items in the shop is always a plus.

It's definitely the loot that sends me there. I've found an eternium-shod quarterstaff, a sword of destruction, a brutal broadsword of penetration (plus an adamantium tower shield on the same character), usually multiple mythril or adamantium weapons.

Also, some characters have a very good chance of making it through alive...I was sure dwarven paladin should be one of those, but between not being able to eat orcs, not having food preservation, and not setting my tactics right I was getting into a lot of trouble.

I don't bother trying if my character doesn't start out with at least 5 PV...you could try and go straight for the down staircase, but you can't afford to just let everything pound on you while you explore the whole level like you can with high PV.

Before I started trying with dwarven paladins, my record was pretty good, as far as picking who could make it through and who needed to go elsewhere: I made it through with a dark elven priest (random, I've played only one), a gray elven weaponsmith (random, I've played only one weaponsmith), lost to an ogre magus with a dark elven beastfighter (random, first character to attempt the UD as I remember), made it through with a second dark elven beastfighter (not random), and only had three losses with characters I brought to the SMC, intending to make it through: that first ever attempt with a beastfighter, a gnomish paladin, and an orcish druid (this druid had unusually good starting PV, but lost his robe to an exploding door...I think it was [+2, +3]). That's 50 percent wins, despite not knowing the SMC and UD very well...and two of the losses weren't great race/class combinations.

I'm not counting two characters I knew had no chance that I attempted the SMC with because I wasn't really interested in playing them, or the monk that I decided to try to rush for the down stairs with, in part to see if the PV was really necessary. It was.

So, sure, it'd be suicide with the vast majority of characters, but if you pick ones that have enough PV for the SMC, and the right talents for survival in the UD, it's quite doable, probably with well over 50% success rate once you're used to it. It's doable with dwarven paladins too, I was just using the wrong tactics setting, buying the wrong food (blessed melons >> blessed large rations >> uncursed melons >> uncursed large rations), and spending too long clearing out the levels completely.