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Thread: Dwarven paladins and the unremarkable dungeon?

  1. #1

    Default Dwarven paladins and the unremarkable dungeon?

    So, I've been trying to take a dwarven paladin through the Unremarkable Dungeon, and I've lost about five in the attempt.

    On the surface, it seems like it should be a no-brainer: you start with 14 PV. I feel comfortable going for the blanket in the small cave if my character has 5 PV, with a dwarven paladin, I can even look around and make sure I've grabbed all the weapons before I leave, no problem.

    But I tend to still lose them later on, in part because they start with an abysmal weapon (2d3), and they sometimes run into something that has PV I can't get through (and can't hit without weapon skill using weapons found in the small cave), other times because they need to wait and heal up, but don't have enough food to do it, with the big pile of loot they grabbed and no food preservation. I usually buy two or three uncursed large rations from Munxip before I start the dive, but it's not really enough.

    I've made the dive successfully with a couple of other characters in the past...is dwarven paladin not a good race/class combo to do the dive with? Any tips on how to not starve to death in the process?

  2. #2
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    hmm, maybe I will roll a dwarf paladin and try this now


    EDIT: I rolled a raven dwarf pally with St:21 (no autoroller) and 10PV. I will edit this as I go.
    Things of note so far: Are you remembering to use your holy symbol for extra piety? Extra prayers help a lot.
    Are you remembering to milk orc spears out of the first orc scorcher you meet?

    challenge completed on first try, this indicates practice will fix your problems
    Last edited by gut; 04-08-2013 at 05:07 AM.
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  3. #3
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    Sounds like you might only need to pick your battles more carefully. If you can't get through something's PV, run from it. If you can't hit it and start taking damage through 14 PV, run from it.

    Starvation sounds like it's only a problem when you need to rest and heal. In that case, try rolling Candle, that should probably eliminate the need to camp and regenerate altogether. If it's still a problem, remember you don't need to exhaustively scout every floor.

    EDIT: got this guy through okay, though with the shield find it'd be hard not to. Closest call was an ogre magus, ran from it on sight. Forgot paladins had healing though, that's useful
    Last edited by psy_wombats; 04-08-2013 at 03:42 AM.

  4. #4

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    Wow.

    Tried a candle-born just now: Bambul. Level 4 dwarven paladin (F). She was aged to death by a ghost in an unremarkable dungeon on level 1.

    As usual, I couldn't hit anything. Decided to try out all the weapons from the small cave, to see if any of them might have random to-hit bonuses, even though they were all normal weights, but nothing was any good...the best, depending on how you look at it, was either the large hammer (-1, 1d10+2), with decent damage but even less chance to hit, or the cursed spear, (+1, 1d8)...at least I was stuck with one of the better ones. Or so I thought.

    There was a mixed vault on level one of the UD. Just one ghost, but I couldn't hit it to save my life. And, I suppose, cursed weapons vs. undead are sort of terrible.

    I think next time I'll try taking off some of the armor pieces first thing: -3 to hit can be pretty brutal starting out. I can't see giving up the plate mail's 7 DV, in spite of the -2 to hit, but those (-1, +0) [+0, +1] gauntlets could definitely go, if they don't roll an extra bonus.

    Also, it appears the normal starting PV is 11 with a horned helmet, plate mail, medium shield, iron gauntlets and boots. I just keep thinking it's 14 because my first dwarf got a couple lucky pieces of armor.

  5. #5
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    Try berserk tactics and make sure to skip any mixed vaults. Remember that DL of UD:1 is like 6, so if you're going in at lvl 1, you can be in for a rude surprise (mixed vaults are like +2 or more to DL and can be really dangerous) if you don't know what you're doing.
    gate closers: GeWi GnMo(unarmed) DeAs/Pa/Mi(staves)/Ra GePr DrBb HrMo | p7: MeBf | p17: GnPr | p20: DrDu GnAs DeCk MeWp OrBf GnTh MeHe | R57: MeDu | R101: DrAs (26,674 turns) GnDu (26,748) DrAs (18,533)
    ULE: HeRa — OCG: DeMi
    currently speedrunning DrAs.

  6. #6
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    What I usually do at the UD is to go down as soon as I see the stairs and come back later in the game to explore everything. I do this because of several reasons:

    a) Playing it safe. When I come back later, the character has some extra levels and is prepared to run through the UD confidently.

    b) Arriving to Dwarftown with few experience levels in order to get an easier random monster quest (as of 1.1.1. I'm not sure if this has changed in 1.2.0). Therefore, I descend the upper levels of the CoC in the same way, just looking for the downstairs. After I get the quest, I check the level below DT (in order to test this theory that says that the random monster is likely to be found at that level, although I don't believe it) and then come back up exploring all the previous levels, then the UD, and then the dungeons of Terinyo. In this way, if you get a difficult random monster quest, you can look for the monster while doing new content, which is more appealing than just scumming around to find it.

    c) Sometimes there is a stone giant lord at the HMV and sometimes it kills you. The sooner you lose a character the less time you lose and the sooner you can start a new game
    1 ULE, 1 UNE, 18 regular endings. Won with every race. Trying to win with every class. Never won with farmer, merchant, mindcrafter and thief.

  7. #7
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    I always do UD runs. With a dwarven paladin it's not hard, you just have to know your UD.

    Some tips:

    - It's well known that you shouldn't get too many levels in the SMC. But you'll increase your survivability if you get at least to level 3 or 4 before going down into UD:1. At level 1 or 2, it's not hard to find a monster or trap in UD:1 that one-hits you.
    - Get missiles ASAP, even if it's rocks. They'll help against karmics, and they'll help soften tough monsters.
    - Do orc, gnoll/hyena and undead vaults, with dwarven paladins it shouldn't be too hard (if you're careful and run when on low HP) and you'll get lots of loot. Loot is good and helps you survive.
    - Don't try weapons if you don't have a means of curse detection and they don't seem (by their weight) like mithril or adamantium. You will surely get some mithril or adamantium weapons in your UD trip, especially if you do vaults, so it's not worth risking ending stuck to a cursed standard iron spear. Only try mithril or adamantium weapons (or eternium if you're lucky to get one, which is possible in the UD too).
    - Avoid mixed vaults and mixed tension rooms unless you're very confident that the generated monsters are safe (but that will seldom be the case). Stuff like werewolf lords can be generated in mixed tension rooms and vaults of the UD, werewolf lord at that level usually means death.
    - Don't walk around with low HP because the UD has an above average trap generation rate.
    - I usually explore levels 1 to 6 thoroughly (unless I find mixed vaults or mixed tension rooms). With levels 7 and 8, the DL starts to get a bit hairy and you might want to skip parts of those levels if you find yourself unsafe, although with dwarven paladins there shouldn't be too many problems if you're careful... just scout and if you see something like a quickling tension room, don't engage.
    Last edited by Al-Khwarizmi; 04-08-2013 at 12:19 PM.

  8. #8

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    Well, I got one through...though I was out of food by the time I reached the HMV, so if the shop didn't generate at least a couple rations I would be dead.

    But out of food ended up being moot this time: Ukosh. Level 8 dwarven paladin (M). He was killed by a ratling warlord in a remote mountain village.

    I got lucky with this character and started with a really great weapon: a battleaxe 1d6+5. Apparently you can start either with a battleaxe and no shield or that terrible 2d3 mace-class weapon and a medium shield, with the battleaxe plus an additional random +3 damage on it, I didn't have the usual trouble killing things, and I got quite a few good shields pretty quickly.

    Small cave had a lawful altar, so I built up a little extra piety and IDd both shields and all the weapons, but nothing was better than my starting axe.

    UD went pretty well, found herbs (but, of course, no herbalism yet, and even if I knew which scroll it was, it's impossible to read scrolls of identify in pre5, so no food from that).

    I'd probably have beaten the ratling warlord too, got past one attempt to disarm, but the second one sent my weapon onto the ratling warlord's square, and he sent my backup axe into the water. Tried archery at that point, but I hadn't trained it and couldn't hit him.

    edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Al-Khwarizmi
    ...just scout and if you see something like a quickling tension room, don't engage.
    ...how exactly do you not engage a quickling tension room, once you open the door and the walls crumble around you? You can usually take on a tension-room one-on-one, if there aren't ghosts, but with a speed consistently below 100, it's pretty hard to run away from anything, much less quicklings.
    Last edited by Grumbledwarfskin; 04-08-2013 at 01:03 PM.

  9. #9
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    Yeah, I do admit "don't engage" was a bit of an overstatement in the case of quicklings

    But you can try to run from the stairs and take as few quicklings with you as possible, as opposed to trying to kill them all (on a corridor or not). That was what I was thinking about when I said "don't engage".

    By the way, another tip: if you have 15 PV and you get promising two-handers, use them, you don't really need a lot of DV with such an awesome early-game PV. You can get DV later.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirTheta View Post
    (mixed vaults are like +2 or more to DL and can be really dangerous)
    +2 is a pretty conservative estimate. I once had a werewolf lord and acid vortex (both DL12) on PC: 5 (DL4), and a stone golem (DL11) in a pre-Dwarftown vault. A thrown PoEX saved my life in the latter case, but I was not so lucky in the puppy cave.

    By all means, mixed vaults can be really dangerous. If you're starting the game in the UD, specially with a melee character, it's better to just skip them entirely and come back later. Don't let the potential loot tempt you.

    Also, if you can create darkness, use it! Many early-game threats don't see in it. You can berserk them safely or just run away.
    "And light there be!"

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