ADOM download size

[Sami]

Distributing the graphics could be optimized quite easily though: if torrent format supports shared data between torrents (which i don't think it does) you could share the graphics/audio between the versions for different platforms to have more seeds for those larger files. And if it doesn't support that, the graphics/audio and actual binary may be distributed in separate packages to gain same advantage with minor extra effort for the downloader.

[jt]

Yes, sharing between torrents is possible, if we build separate packages for graphics and sound. The torrent then would not be a single file but a directory (with a binary package and those for graphics and sound). The only difficulty is that the installation is slightly more complicated because you need to extract more files and put them in the correct directory. This will become easier when we use our graphical installer, but I'm not sure if we will already use it for Prerelease 14.

[fooziex]

There are 1410 images altogether (maps, decals, etc.). They are kept in separate files so that they can be easily replaced/modded.

I'm sure there are ways to optimize the size of the graphics... but it has no high priority right now (for me at least). I'll take a note to try some of the PNG optimizers (e.g http://pmt.sourceforge.net/pngcrush/ or http://optipng.sourceforge.net/).

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I recommend PNGOUT. It has an author from the old school of gaming (Ken Silverman, of BUILD engine fame), and according to his site, "can often beat other programs by 5-10%. That includes pngcrush -brute, optipng -o7, advpng -z4, etc."
http://advsys.net/ken/utils.htm

An audio codec worth looking into is Opus. It's the newest patent-unencumbered, free codec. I imagine Vorbis is probably still your best bet, since Opus is optimized for lower-bitrate, but it's worth a look.
http://opus-codec.org/

If you do stick with Ogg Vorbis, I recommend the AoTuV tuned builds. They produce Ogg Vorbis files that work in any decoder, but apply encoder improvements.
"aoTuV versions improves significantly on Vorbis quality: Most people agree aoTuV beta 4 (and newer) achieves transparency at -q 5."
AoTuV homepage
AoTuV builds on hydrogenaudio
AoTuV builds on rarewares

[Mobius]

There are 1410 images altogether (maps, decals, etc.). They are kept in separate files so that they can be easily replaced/modded.

I'm sure there are ways to optimize the size of the graphics... but it has no high priority right now (for me at least). I'll take a note to try some of the PNG optimizers (e.g http://pmt.sourceforge.net/pngcrush/ or http://optipng.sourceforge.net/).

Optimize when it matters. But do try out the tools, it can make a difference worth the effort. Even for the folks hosting a torrent. Going from 150 MB to 100 MB would be worth it. Call it a p15 feature request.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Smaller is Better!

It depends. If the optimization/compression is lossless, yes. If it isn't, often smaller is way worse.

That's why I have my music collection in FLAC or in high-bitrate MP3. Many people think that 128kbps is "good enough", but that's only until you plug it into a good audio rig. Then the difference becomes obvious.

So my personal feature request for p15 is don't compress the music in a way that will degrade quality.

Of course, this doesn't apply to the PNG optimizer you cite - PNG is lossless (at least IIRC), so using that tool shouldn't affect quality.

[jt]

Sorry guys, for some reason I got the file size of the graphics wrong. Actually it's around 35 MB, not 100 MB. I've already tried optipng, but it did not decrease the file size of the PNGs, so I guess they are already pretty optimized.

The current ZIP file for OSX (with all graphics but some music missing) is 50 MB.

@Al-Khwarizmi no need to fear, we won't destroy Lucas' compositions by compressing them at a low bitrate

[fooziex]

It depends. If the optimization/compression is lossless, yes. If it isn't, often smaller is way worse.

That's why I have my music collection in FLAC or in high-bitrate MP3. Many people think that 128kbps is "good enough", but that's only until you plug it into a good audio rig. Then the difference becomes obvious.

So my personal feature request for p15 is don't compress the music in a way that will degrade quality.

Of course, this doesn't apply to the PNG optimizer you cite - PNG is lossless (at least IIRC), so using that tool shouldn't affect quality.

I feel like I'm contributing to the continued derailment of this thread, but whatever:
An option between lossless (FLAC, ALAC, WavPack, etc) and lossy (Vorbis, MP3, Opus) is LossyWAV+FLAC. LossyWAV dynamically reduces the bit depth of an audio file per-sample, so that FLAC can compress the audio even more. HydrogenAudio's wiki says it better than I could: "[A] method of carefully reducing the bitdepth of (blocks of) samples which will then allow the FLAC lossless encoder to make use of its wasted bits feature. The aim is to transparently reduce audio bit depth (by making some lower significant bits (lsb's) zero), consequently taking advantage of FLAC's detection of consistently-zeroed lower significant bits within each single frame and significantly increasing coding efficiency." So, basically, it's very close to lossless, but tries to skip any extraneous data. The people on HydrogenAudio generally know what they're talking about with regards to high-quality digital audio, and it's a project that originated with them, so I'm comfortable recommending it.

[jt]

Sounds interesting, but I think we should stick to OGG for now (and maybe release a FLAC upgrade later).

[SirTheta]

Vorbis is totally fine for this - very few people can ABX FLAC and ... gosh, I don't even remember the Vorbis equivalent of V0, but I think -q5? (assuming you're using q5!). It would be exceedingly unlikely to a) have someone who (theoretically) can ABX them and b) someone with the audio equipment to ABX them combined with c) someone who plays ADOM and d) someone who just won't stand for lossy audio.

P.S. IMO, (as much as most Hydrogen Audio people have their head screwed on right) LossyWAV really has no niche. FLAC is great for archival purposes (and what I have most of my classical music in), but realistically most people can't ABX FLAC and V0 MP3 (and MP3 is a pretty shitty codec!), much less have the audio equipment for it. Anyone who does shouldn't be worried about the space that FLAC takes up. There's definitely no point in using it for ADOM.

[fooziex]

Vorbis is totally fine for this - very few people can ABX FLAC and ... gosh, I don't even remember the Vorbis equivalent of V0, but I think -q5? (assuming you're using q5!). It would be exceedingly unlikely to a) have someone who (theoretically) can ABX them and b) someone with the audio equipment to ABX them combined with c) someone who plays ADOM and d) someone who just won't stand for lossy audio.

P.S. IMO, (as much as most Hydrogen Audio people have their head screwed on right) LossyWAV really has no niche. FLAC is great for archival purposes (and what I have most of my classical music in), but realistically most people can't ABX FLAC and V0 MP3 (and MP3 is a pretty shitty codec!), much less have the audio equipment for it. Anyone who does shouldn't be worried about the space that FLAC takes up. There's definitely no point in using it for ADOM.

You're probably right, and my intentions in this thread have been mainly small talk instead of "serious" suggestions. Continuing in that spirit, I do feel like this is the kind of situation where LossyWAV+FLAC might be appropriate. As you were saying, LossyFLAC doesn't really have a niche, and I haven't even done testing with it. My impression, however, is that it retains practical transparency with a resulting bitrate around half of that of the lossless FLAC version of the same audio. Since the ADOM files are going to be frequently transferred, and the intended use of a FLAC version of the ADOM audio is different from an archival copy, I think that in this situation the benefits of LossyFLAC outweigh the negatives. On the other hand, this is over the top speculation, and really, distribution with BitTorrent, considering the proliferation of broadband, is the best / most realistic solution.