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Thread: Guidebook work

  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    The guidebook stat listings don't include changes from character background or the random/questions choice, so of course real results will be higher on average. Overall they are accurate enough as a general comparison between character types, but shouldn't be relied on to predict real stats for chars.
    Again, some of them are pretty far off. A troll barbarian gets ~10-12 points higher To than the predicted values, and a similar amount of St more. In less extreme cases, you still see fairly consistent differences of several points in all stats. An average human fighter starting with an average 17 To instead of a predicted 14 is a fairly significant effect. Also, it's worth pointing out that background and questions should only affect the scatter, not the averages, since some of these will lower your stats, not raise them. The Guidebook values don't predict the averages correctly though--they systematically underestimate the PC's stats.

    More to the point, as I've described in the indicated thread, I think that the algorithm used to generate the table is incorrect, and have demonstrated a method that seems to correctly predict the starting stats of a given race/class combination with significantly higher accuracy. Given that we can predict the starting stats with much higher accuracy than the Guidebook table, I don't see any reason not to take advantage of that.
    Last edited by JellySlayer; 11-03-2009 at 06:32 PM.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer View Post
    Again, some of them are pretty far off. A troll barbarian gets ~10-12 points higher To than the predicted values, and a similar amount of St more. In less extreme cases, you still see fairly consistent differences of several points in all stats. An average human fighter starting with an average 17 To instead of a predicted 14 is a fairly significant effect. Also, it's worth pointing out that background and questions should only affect the scatter, not the averages, since some of these will lower your stats, not raise them. The Guidebook values don't predict the averages correctly though--they systematically underestimate the PC's stats.

    More to the point, as I've described in the indicated thread, I think that the algorithm used to generate the table is incorrect, and have demonstrated a method that seems to correctly predict the starting stats of a given race/class combination with significantly higher accuracy. Given that we can predict the starting stats with much higher accuracy than the Guidebook table, I don't see any reason not to take advantage of that.
    Not really on topic but about your signature... What if you were attacked by 2 quickling queens, a greater moloch, and an ancient karmic wyrm all at the same time?
    Also, do you know why some class/race combinations get more stats?
    The RNG is the source of chaos and corruption.
    "You talk to molest, the female dwarven child. Molest, the female dwarven child, grunts: "Me wanna sugar, please?"

  3. #503
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    The table numbers are all absolutely completely correct. They are not averages - they are the starting baseline stats for those races, that are then modified by Class, Birth Sign, Background (Which is also specifically different for Barbarians), starting questions, etc.

    It's kind of awkward and complicated. I'll maybe look at your algorithm later if I have a chance.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by DumbleDoor View Post
    Not really on topic but about your signature... What if you were attacked by 2 quickling queens, a greater moloch, and an ancient karmic wyrm all at the same time?
    Then it would still be your fault for wishing for one on a non-teleport level. AKW's [1] are never generated randomly and are by default non-hostile, so you should make sure you can teleport _and_ the coast is clear before trying to kill one. And if you're under fire by two quickling queens, a greater moloch and a great red wyrm on the air temple level - well, quickling queens don't have all that many hitpoints: fireball them and use the opening to escape melee range of the greater moloch and wyrm. And even then, it's usually possible to take out the Master Summoner before he summoned something _useful_.

    [1] which for a german-speaker is an odd abbreviation, since that's short for 'nuclear power station' round here. You certainly wouldn't want to attack one of those, let alone succeed in destroying it.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinge View Post
    The table numbers are all absolutely completely correct. They are not averages - they are the starting baseline stats for those races, that are then modified by Class, Birth Sign, Background (Which is also specifically different for Barbarians), starting questions, etc.

    It's kind of awkward and complicated. I'll maybe look at your algorithm later if I have a chance.
    Racial numbers are correct, I agree. Class numbers are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbledoor
    Also, do you know why some class/race combinations get more stats?
    Increases? Or base stats?

    [edit]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbledoor
    Not really on topic but about your signature... What if you were attacked by 2 quickling queens, a greater moloch, and an ancient karmic wyrm all at the same time?
    What I mean by that is that after 4000 turns, you should have enough health/resources to safely keep yourself out of trouble if you play smart. Prior to a certain point in the game (about 4000 turns, IMHO...), your PC can still occasionally be killed by random acts of unavoidable RNG cruelty--instakills by traps, sickness deaths, nasty wilderness ambushes, lucky hits by paralysing monsters, getting run down by vortices, surprise instakills by invisible ogre magus, etc. Beyond that limit, your PC should have enough resources at their disposal that with smart, careful play, death can be avoided. A better part of that is understanding how not to get yourself into nasty situations in the first place. If I end up surrounded by 8 emperor liches, yeah, I'm probably going to die. But that doesn't mean it's the RNG's fault--it seems pretty implausible that the series of events that led to me being surrounded by 8 emperor liches, especially for a PC deep enough in the CoC to encounter emperor liches, was entirely due to random chance. In all likelihood, those events probably offered a way for me to recognize the danger and escape before it ever became a problem.
    Last edited by JellySlayer; 11-03-2009 at 10:44 PM.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  6. #506
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    I once opened a door and died. It was in the Mana
    Temple.

    "You open the door. The Great black Wyrm breaths
    acid at you. The Great black Wyrm breaths acid at
    you. The Great black Wyrm breaths acid at you."

    Wash, rinse, repeat.

    "You die. Would you like to see the last messages
    before your death?" y/n

    My fault for not getting =acid with my crowning?
    I don't recall getting a 'tension' message first either.
    I've read too many sad deaths to agree that the RNG
    is ever powerless to kill almost any PC.
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  7. #507
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    And then there's the wand of teleportation, which lets you not die from getting surrounded by 8 emperor liches, and escape from pretty much anything. Combined with beggar booze...

    Being aware of strategic and tactical options in any situation is the key, starting with the initial equipment and the tactics settings and your choice of how to start out (UD dive for the gamblers, VD/DD/PC/ID:1 for those who play it safe). The longer you play, the more options you accumulate, until you have so many solutions to so many problems that it becomes nigh impossible for others to pin you down and finish you off. At this point, it's the obstacles you have to overcome on the way to victory that have any chance to kill you, and since scumming is so retardedly easy to do in ADOM it's always possible to prepare to a point that you won't get into serious danger even then.

    What does this theory leave out of the equation? Human weaknesses, namely the susceptibility to mistakes and the tendency to become bored if the game they play isn't fun. In a sense, playing ADOM is a constant battle between theoretically perfect, risk-free strategies and fun. And all things considered, you can never go wrong if you go for the fun.
    ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!

    Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.

  8. #508
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    In response to gut's initial mega-posts

    (I have not read the whole tread yet so these may have already been covered)

    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    I think the best source of
    on-demand teleportation is the guaranteed TP wand from the VDDL. All
    a PC needs to get it is a scroll of magic mapping, or a wand/scroll of
    item detection, or a crystal of knowledge.
    I did this one a current save on Jaakos - went to VDDL, explored the whole level, then used a blessed crystal of knowledge. Annoyingly I got the 2 Le, but no down location -.-

    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    > The only monster found here who sees invisible is the Snake from Beyond.

    Of greater importance is the use of darkness. That is the safest way
    I know. No monster in the Water temple sees in dark.
    When invisible, chaos servants are definitely aware of your presence, I am not sure if they attack though.

    Other tidbits which may or may not be in the GB

    When a creature fires a barrage of glowing balls at you (i.e. a Lich) it will melt the wax in your ears. I remember that YASD well :-)
    Last edited by goldaryn; 11-04-2009 at 01:35 AM.

  9. #509
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    > I did this one a current save on Jaakos - went to VDDL, explored the whole level, then used a
    > blessed crystal of knowledge. Annoyingly I got the 2 Le, but no down location -.-

    Crystals only map a small area centred on the PC. If the staircase isn't within the radius, it won't get mapped. Item detection almost always allows you to find the wand, which is adjacent to the staircase. If no wand shows up, you'll have to resort to monster detection: there's a monster in the stair alcove, which of course has picked up the wand.

    > When invisible, chaos servants are definitely aware of your presence, I am not sure if they attack though.

    They do. They see invisible, just like Greater Chaos Servants, Chaos Mutants and Chaos Wizards.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    "You open the door. The Great black Wyrm breaths
    acid at you. The Great black Wyrm breaths acid at
    you. The Great black Wyrm breaths acid at you."

    My fault for not getting =acid with my crowning?
    Oh yes, should have equipped the rune-covered trident and Grod and the Staff of the Wanderer <g>.

    No, it _may_ have been your fault for not getting Stealth. Getting greeted with such a barrage strongly suggests you didn't have that skill. Or you could have used a wand of monster detection on this level, seeing how monster rooms seem to be quite frequent there.

    But honestly, i think this was a case of rare bad luck, yes. If you can't come up with a plausible way you could have lived, the 'stupid' part of a death isn't there, but that just means it's the game's fault, which is a lot worse in my book.

    I don't recall getting a 'tension' message first either.
    You wouldn't. Those things come in 'threat rooms', which don't give continuous messages. There's a _chance_ you get the 'You feel threatened.' message upon first entering the level, but chances seem to be quite poor, even with good Pe/Listening/Luck (don't know which of these influence the chance).

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