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Thread: Guidebook work

  1. #621
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    Sorry about the "hundreds of players".. my attempt at humor for the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    I mean, am I seriously out of touch with the noobish world outside the forum because I think most ADOM players that stick with the game for more than like three characters - for that matter, all the way to the Mad Minstrel (takes generally more than three) - generally are not stupid?
    Well, I do think that the forum is breeding a sort of mentality that tends to dismiss any ADOM mission other than iron man as trivial, forgetting that things are not that easy for newer players. Not surprising in a group of players who have all finished the game several times and discussed the details over and over.

    Yes, the bug wilderness CAN be done reasonably safely with wands, IF you are very careful and know what you're doing. And yes, this is explained quite well in the guide.

    But taking the Mad Minstrel there and using him for corpses is a different matter. How do you pick up the corpses before they rot? Do you simply follow him, waking up bugs left and right? Is there some other trick? The way it is worded now suggests you may need to kill just one bug. How does that work? If this is trivial to you, please explain it.
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

  2. #622
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    It doesn't need to be trivial to not kill new players attempting it. 'Cause they're not that stupid. You can be (yet) bad at ADOM but decent at reading comprehension.
    Last edited by Silfir; 01-11-2012 at 01:28 PM.
    ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!

    Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.

  3. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by grobblewobble View Post
    But taking the Mad Minstrel there and using him for corpses is a different matter. How do you pick up the corpses before they rot? Do you simply follow him, waking up bugs left and right? Is there some other trick? The way it is worded now suggests you may need to kill just one bug. How does that work? If this is trivial to you, please explain it.
    Play a bard. Actually, because of the requirement to have a pet to make this work anyway, bard is probably the only class where this might be seriously worthwhile. By the time a PC is high level enough to make this work otherwise, they can probably get corpses in easier ways.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

  4. #624
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    > How do you prevent the Mad Minstrel from walking all over the place

    There are ways, but that goes beyond the scope of just
    telling players that the manuever is possible. The
    guidebook isn't like my wiz guide, where I explain
    tactics step-by-step. The more information I give
    about the tactic, the more it would seem like I'm
    endorsing it.

    Since you asked though, it gives me a chance to
    elaborate. There is an odd feature about the MM and
    many other NPC's (which you would possibly know already
    if you had actually tried using the tactic before
    complaining about it), the MM often doesn't move at
    all after entering a new location. It is possible to
    just stand by him as he is idle until he drops a
    corpse, :s with him, pick the corpse, and repeat.

    > At least I assume you're supposed to follow him to pick up the corpses

    assuming

    > but at least a little extra explanation would be good. The bug cave is deadly,

    I refer you to the section in the gb dealing with bugwil,
    which is different from bugcav (as you mention).
    http://www.adomgb.info/adomgb-2-27.html
    "The bug-infested temple consists of two parts: the bug wilderness (BUGWIL) and bug cave (BUGCAV). The wilderness part's outer limits are scattered with greater claw bugs, that low-level spellcasters can bolt to death (be very cautious!). Around the down staircase, there are eight killer bugs.

    Note that both greater claw bugs and killer bugs have high speed, breed, have multiple attacks and bypass the PC's PV. This means that they are what they're called - killers - in melee."


    That is a section of the GB I didn't write, and notice how it
    doesn't tell EXACTLY how a spellcaster should bolt/move in bugwil,
    it just mentions that the tactic is possible and safe with
    practice. The player is expected to die several times before
    mastering this tactic, goodness, I still die doing it...

    > The target audience, if there is such a thing,

    There is no such thing. The GB is not a cohesive thingie,
    which would be mandatory for such an idea as 'target
    audience'. It is an assemblage of random adom related data
    that has been gathered by dozens of nerds over a timespan
    of a decade. The only reason the data has any organization
    at all is because of AW.

    > I'd just add another line "This, by the way, is a colossal waste of time by any reasonable estimation.

    You'd have to put that line all over the GB, especially
    by the part about smithing. The player can try the
    tactic they may not have thought about by themselves
    (which is the whole purpose of putting it in the GB)
    and if it doesn't work for them, then they know.

    I should note that of all the people I mention this
    tactic to on irc say it is interesting, even though
    it isn't exactly piety scumming level of useful.

    > I bet there are hundreds of noobs around the world, killing themselves as we speak because they read about this

    They SHOULD kill themselves if they read any part of
    the GB. Anyone reading all this junk I'm typing now
    should do the same. I should do the same for writing
    it.

    Let us examine your thoughts: You think it is difficult
    to set up, as the MM isn't easy to lead to bugwil, and
    I didn't explain how... yet noobs will, of course,
    figure that out, then die to the GB that can be killed
    with 2 zaps of a fire wand or just TP'd away with 100 percent
    effectiveness.

    > slightly over-enthusiastically worded instructions

    So now I've explained it too well -_-

    > Yes, the bug wilderness CAN be done reasonably safely with wands,

    actually, it can't be DONE with wands (unless you have 100s of charges),
    but you CAN survive 1 GB with 2 fire zaps 100 percent of the time.

    > know what you're doing. And yes, this is explained quite well in the guide.

    The guidebook does not explain how to do that. My wiz guide does.
    The gb only says it is possible.

    > How do you pick up the corpses before they rot?

    Why don't you try the tactic, and find the answer for yourself.
    That was the purpose for presenting the information, after all.
    It may not be as difficult as what you think.

    > The way it is worded now suggests you may need to kill just one bug.

    With a tp wand or single casting point of tp, you technically
    don't need to kill a single bug.

    > How does that work?

    Have you ever been to bugwil?

    > If this is trivial to you, please explain it.



    The bug that is the most SE is the only one that will awaken
    upon PC (and NPC) entry. Therefore it is the only one that
    has to be dealt with (not necessarily killed). All others
    will remain sleeping unless you allow the MM to escape your
    control, then follow the MM near the bugs.

    > because of the requirement to have a pet to make this work anyway, bard is probably the only class where this might be seriously worthwhile.

    It is not worthwhile for anyone to corpse scum in bugwil,
    at least 99% (I am sick of editing out forum stupitity. any time you see #$%#$%#$%#%$#$% it means 'percent') of the time. It is a fun fact is all. If one
    is interested in gaining immunities or any of the other
    rewards I mention, then that is the 1% of the time when
    it is useful.

    > By the time a PC is high level enough to make this work

    One doesn't have to be of high xl to make this work. The
    requirements are minimal: 2 shields, ~5 large rations,
    a decent spare set of armor, and an offensive wand with
    2 charges is enough.

    > otherwise, they can probably get corpses in easier ways.

    Gaining access to karmic and ancient red dragon corpses
    isn't as easy as all that, but as I mentioned, the
    corruption is a deterant to playing corpse roulette
    with MM.
    Last edited by gut; 01-11-2012 at 04:29 PM.
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  5. #625
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    Now that is a thorough explanation, thanks a lot. Sorry for making false assumptions instead of trying it.

    I do think that adding parts of the above post would be a good addition to the GB.

    One question I still have is: do you really mean immunities, not resistance? AFAIK the only corpses granting immunity are giant slug and lightning lizard?
    You steal a scroll labelled HITME. The orc hits you.

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    ...but as I mentioned, the corruption is a deterant to playing corpse roulette with MM.
    Hmm, I just did some reading, and it seems that the Dwarven Graveyard level has the same DL as BUGWIL, but without the background corruption. Wouldn't that make the graveyard a much better place for this tactic?

  7. #627
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    It is difficult to believe that the griffyard is = bugwil, but I have heard that griffyard is the
    highest DL in the game with no background corruption. It would indeed be the best place
    to corpse scum, if one wanted to take the time to do that.

    As far as immunities go, you can get at least 2 from corpses, but 2 external sources of
    -fire plus corpse granted resist is the same as immunity.
    "Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."

  8. #628
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    It's enough reduction for the tower, but a breath attack (like, ancient red dragons or wyrms) might still deal one or two points of damage or so. The difference is small enough to not care.
    ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!

    Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.

  9. #629
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    On "2.22 The Rift", The Guidebook states that "Falling can be avoided by having the extremely thin and nimble and the very light corruptions. This needs further testing".

    I have just taken my very light, thin and nimble PC to the rift and, unfortunately, I got the usual equipment destruction. So I'm afraid these corruptions don't affect.

    I have a savegame available, just in case Andy is still around and wants to do further testing.
    Last edited by quik; 01-31-2012 at 05:50 PM.
    1 ULE, 1 UNE, 18 regular endings. Won with every race. Trying to win with every class. Never won with farmer, merchant, mindcrafter and thief.

  10. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by quik View Post
    On "2.22 The Rift", The Guidebook states that "Falling can be avoided by having the extremely thin and nimble and the very light corruptions. This needs further testing".

    I have just taken my very light, thin and nimble PC to the rift and, unfortunately, I got the usual equipment destruction. So I'm afraid these corruptions don't affect.

    I have a savegame available, just in case Andy is still around and wants to do further testing.
    IIRC, there is a bug that means that you will always fall your first time on the Rift. Falls in subsequent entries (for whatever reason you might wish to go back) can be averted. I think this is in sorear's list of heavily-coded-dived bugs, somewhere.
    Hoping to win with every class, doomed. Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Beastfighter, Druid, Elementalist, Farmer, Fighter, Monk, and ULE Priest down.

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