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Thread: Guidebook work

  1. #81
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    Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up!

  2. #82
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    Hey this thread is about helping mr. Williams update his guidebook, so if anyone wants to chip in, that is fine. If we spot someone giving incorrect info, the community should probably just point it out, quickly. It is obviously gonna be mistakes here, as further code-diving is discouraged, but so be it. Testing are only that accurate.

    Personally the Guidebook has been extremely helpful to me...I would have walked away from the game 6 years ago without it. (What, one can kick down locked doors? Aha. Also, reading spoilers ahead of time caught my interest). I still use it for occational reference, especially the monster list when I need to know if it safe to sac monsters as a N char (like dire wolf ok, wolf not)

    I have a question about ethics as well - code diving is out, as I understand, but what about AdomSage-engineered tests?

    I'll give an example:
    Section 2.5.3.1 (Thrundrarr's quests)
    "Slay a random creature. This can be a very annoying quest. Thrundarr can assign anything ranging from a goblin to a Ghost Lord."

    I can pretty safely add this :"There is a rumon that if your PC has visited a dangerous dungeon level, then the quest monster can be a higher level creature, but testing by Molach the Mighty showed that PCs going straight to Dwarftown and PCs who visited Dwarven Halls level 2 got same types of monsters. The PC also has to be at least level 6 to get the quest"

    This experiment did use save-scumming so it was basically the same character/clone who got the quests, but otherwise just regualar playing, However, a SAGE-rigged xperiment showed that the entry should in fact read. The level 6 requirement was not even save-scummed, just tested with a gnome and a troll, gnome needed 1437 xps and the troll 10177 xps, neither got quest on level 5, but both got it right after turning 6.

    2.5.3.1
    1) Slay a random creature. This can be a very annoying quest. Thrundarr can assign anything ranging from a goblin to a Ghost Lord, and the higher level of the PC, the higher potential level of the quest monster. A level 50 character got (Moloch? Balor? Greater Moloch? Don't recall) as quest monster. You must be level 6 to get the quest, which should not matter to most normal PCs.


    Now this info was gained using AdomSage, by some player on this or the other forum (sorry don't remember who) I guess one could have tested higher exp. level vs. the first quest with regular playing, but that would really be a pain in the butt, especially as you ideally should not visit many different locations as the low-exp "standard" PC.

    Items Danger levels are actually useful to know...there exits data about this, code-dived. Testing by regular playing should give most (at least non-rare items) levels, but be somewhat time-consuming....and why bother now that the truth is out...but using ADOM Sage I believe one could device methods to determine most items pretty fast. Mabye. Anyway, AoLS is level 2 and RoDS is level 8, this has at least been reversely-proved, or can be put in, mabye. This will enable the following update to this section;

    2.14.1
    "[...]Common methods of attempting to get an amulet of life saving include staying in the infinite dungeon until one is generated or draining every pool the PC has found in the hopes of obtaining a wish. A ring of djinni summoning may also be generated in the infinite dungeon, which provides a wish when blessed."

    Adding the "known" info that RoDS are level 8 and ID item level is level/3...means that this is somewhat innaccurate. Something like this


    "[...]Common methods of attempting to get an amulet of life saving include staying draining every pool the PC has found in the hopes of obtaining a wish, digging up the graves in the Griffyard, staying in dungeons of medium danger level (Coc level 8 or lower, but you have to be below dungeon level 24 in the ID to find a RoDS) to find the amulet or a RoDS, or dipping rings in blessed potions of exchange on D:8 in hope of transmuting it into a RoDS, or setting up a gremlin bomb. Gremlin bomb is basically a big room with a couple of water traps, where the PC lures in a gremlin or (more realistically) sets off a water trap with ctrl-t while wielding a fluff ball. Now there will be an unlimited number of gremlins to pickpocket and/or kill. Beware killing too many, as they will get tougher as your kill count goes up. Over 2000 kills make them mean. Some players let a pet do the killing, and only pickpocket the critters. This will keep them nice and low level. It can also be noted that gremlins do not see invisible, so an invisible PC using a bolt spell should not have much problems. Magic missile does not damage items. This method is by many players considered to be a scummy exploit of a game mechanic, but it is not cheating, as such."

    More updates I can think off, on the top of my head:
    2.5.6 (glod and smithing)
    "[...]It is possible to kill Glod without making the rest of Dwarftown hostile, thus making his smithy available for free. One method of doing this involves using the greater daemon generated by Thrundarr's fifth quest. If the greater daemon is lured near Glod, it will kill Glod."

    ADD

    "If you plan on doing your smithing in dwarftown, and the dwarftown is on D:10 or D:11, it is advicable to read a (blessed) scroll of peace to reduce corruption while engaged in time-consuming smithing. There is a guaranteed scroll from ratling rebel (see section 2.2.3)"

    And finally (for now)
    0.14.16

    "Treasure Hunter is generally accepted to be one of the most desirable (if not _the_ most desirable) talents, making Alert a populer Level 1 choice."

    and

    "[Treasure Hunter] Considered by many to be the best talent overall. Adds a chance for more monsters to drop items when killed. The quality of items is unaffected. Well worth the two prerequisites, in my opinion."

    Hehe. Insert, if you dare, "However a growing cult of ADOM veterans have raised serious questions value of this talent, claiming it to merely be a talent of convenience and not worth passing up 3 other, potentially life-saving talents. They claim early-game survival is very negatively affected by this overpriced talent, pointing to all the other great sources of quality items that exist"
    Last edited by Molach; 06-18-2009 at 09:07 PM.

  3. #83
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    >There was a guy posting about oil of rust removal and rust monsters....
    >Well, i would not call the result as nothing....
    >Leaving aside my impression of nerfed to hit and crits [never quantified],
    >I never got any item rusting after using oil to *weaken* rust monster.
    >even after dooming char seriously....
    >Given fact how PoCC removes corrupting hits i'd say it is as certain as i can detect.

    Sorry for bringing up inaccurate info. I was looking just for changes in monsters' stats, that are revealed by blessed stethoscope and in this way rust monsters' stats do not change. I thought I stated that I was looking only at these differences, if not - sorry again.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    Is the pit bug mentioned in the GB? The one about covering a
    pit with a regular blanket, in order to produce a different kind
    of trap in unusual locations? I don't think that was code dived.

    Forgot to mention something in the 'alignment' section.
    There is a bug in the game that allows a player to attack
    non-hostiles without an alignment hit. Just shoot a missile
    past your intended target. This will still result in an
    alignment penalty if you kill, say, a beggar, but you won't
    get penalized for starting the fight.
    OK, most of gut's stuff has been incorporated. I don't know about the pit bug, and I can't search these forums for it (three letter words). Simply dig a hole, cover it with a (plain only?) blanket, pick up the blanket and it has transformed into another trap?

    I remember the business about "accidentally" attacking a nonhostile. Why would an alignment drop occur for killing a beggar "accidentally"?
    ADOM Guidebook: http://adomgb.info/

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    2.9.1 The first two levels

    Perhaps mention the fact that this is the first guaranteed
    instance of a corruption trap in the game. These can often
    be exploited to gain highly prized corruptions such as
    'astral planes'.
    --------------

    -----------
    2.9.2.1 Rehetep

    Please mention that the warning that Rehetep gives to alert
    all the monsters on the level can be avoided. The warning is
    only produced when the PC FIRST enters Rehetep's line of sight.
    So if a PC teleports directly to Rehetep, he won't alert the
    level to the PC's presence. You still have to fight the two
    jackel demons though : (
    -----------------

    ------------------
    2.10 The Gremlin Cave

    Maybe mention the gremlin bomb tactic. Highly scummy, I know,
    but so many people ask about it...
    -----------------

    -----------------
    2.11.2 The VDDL

    > In practice, the easiest way to find the down staircase is to zap
    > a wand of item detection

    Please mention the effectiveness of uncursed scrolls of magic
    mapping. They have never failed to reveal the location of the
    wand for me.
    --------------
    2.9.1 What about Nonnak's lair? Surely there must be a corruption trap there?

    2.9.2.1 I tried this in 1.0.0. Entered top level, all silent. Teleported directly next to Rehetep on his left, he sang out. What am I missing?

    2.10 It is mentioned that it's a potentially endless source of pickpocketing. Are you talking about a full explanation with a pet doing the killing? Is the statement in the GB about "gremlins are not bad until the PC has killed thousands still true in 1.1.1?

    2.11.2 Are you looking for the wand or the staircase with the scroll? Why uncursed and not blessed? Clearly there's something I don't know here.
    ADOM Guidebook: http://adomgb.info/

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Williams View Post
    2.11.2 Are you looking for the wand or the staircase with the scroll? Why uncursed and not blessed? Clearly there's something I don't know here.
    I think the point is that it doesn't need to be blessed, uncursed has high enough probability to reveal either square in the room or at least one of the surrounding walls to locate the room.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Williams View Post
    I remember the business about "accidentally" attacking a nonhostile. Why would an alignment drop occur for killing a beggar "accidentally"?
    Because there are some monsters that will always cause a drop (or gain) in alignment when killed, and killing beggars is considered evil by the game. As is killing blink dogs and white unicorns - in instances involving slaying these creatures of pure good the ADOM Gods doesn't take into consideration the fact that your thrown anvil was indeed intended for the wall behind the beggar rather than his interposing skull which you *accidentaly* happened to crush.
    Suddenly a stream of acid pours down from the ceiling! The cute dog is horribly mutilated by the acidic fluids! The cute dog dies!

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necropassion View Post
    Because there are some monsters that will always cause a drop (or gain) in alignment when killed, and killing beggars is considered evil by the game. As is killing blink dogs and white unicorns - in instances involving slaying these creatures of pure good the ADOM Gods doesn't take into consideration the fact that your thrown anvil was indeed intended for the wall behind the beggar rather than his interposing skull which you *accidentaly* happened to crush.
    I thought this was determined solely by the alignment of the monster in question. Sure, killing blink dogs and white unicorns will cause an alignment drop, they're lawful. Beggars are neutral AFAIK. Is that incorrect?
    ADOM Guidebook: http://adomgb.info/

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sami View Post
    I think the point is that it doesn't need to be blessed, uncursed has high enough probability to reveal either square in the room or at least one of the surrounding walls to locate the room.
    I thought perhaps an uncursed scroll of magic mapping is *guaranteed* to show where the down staircase is. If that is true I am unaware of it.
    ADOM Guidebook: http://adomgb.info/

  10. #90
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    Wondrous are the ways of The Creator.
    Yeah, I believe beggars are neutral, but I also believe it wouldn't be beyond TB to implement such a feature seeing as the deed of slaying a poor beggar is somewhat synonymous to being 'true evil' in most cultures.

    BTW: It's great to see you taking up work on the GB again - keep at it!
    Suddenly a stream of acid pours down from the ceiling! The cute dog is horribly mutilated by the acidic fluids! The cute dog dies!

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