were pickpockets nerfed too much?

[Stingray1]

This is a difficult aspect to [BALANCE], as it has 2 desires. Access to guild and greed. I did use the skill a lot directly after p7 was released and as I've said, am happy with the change.

But, that's me and I'm not the only person to consider. I can tell you this however, if a player is persistent enough to get it to 100, I think he/she deserves to succeed on almost every attempt.

I'll document the items stolen.

[Stingray1]

This is a difficult aspect to [BALANCE], as it has 2 desires. Access to guild and greed. I did use the skill a lot directly after p7 was released and as I've said, am happy with the change.

But, that's me and I'm not the only person to consider. I can tell you this however, if a player is persistent enough to get it to 100, I think he/she deserves to succeed on almost every attempt.

I'll document the items stolen.

In the mid 40s success averages about 4 attempts on normal hostiles. The failure rate on tension room and vault monsters are extremely high, I give up on those monsters.

Sidenote - Andor gave me =Fire and boots which the PC cannot even carry. They probably don't contain the essence anyway.

Edit - Success rate seems to be very close to 100% in DT with skill in 40s.

Edit2 - If a monster spawns on a vault tile it counts as a vault monster wrt success rate. Sidenote - I think it also affects item drop chance.

[asdf]

Detect traps isn't essential. That's a Guidebook-propagated myth. Alertness and/or high Dx/Pe (Sixth Sense helps a surprising amount as well) will mean you'll avoid most traps anyway. Except for ceiling traps in the Temples, most other traps are pretty harmless by midgame so you can just walk through them if you want.

Suddenly a stream of acid pours down from the ceiling! Your blessed girdle of greed [+0, +0] is destroyed! Your uncursed amulet of free action is destroyed! Your blessed helm of water breathing [+7, +5] is destroyed! You uncursed fencing gloves of fidelity [+3, +1] {Ch+6} are destroyed!
54 alertness/27 dex.

If you managed to ate giant slug corpse - that might be different for you:P

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Yeah, not essential, i.e. you can win without it. But lacking it does make heavily trapped areas way more difficult. I don't typically die to traps except in the very early game, but heavy equipment loss as in the example by the previous poster is relatively common.

I definitely think that Detect Traps is important enough that the way to get it shouldn't be through massive tedious grinding. Making the player choose between extreme boredom and playing with a rather serious handicap is not right.

[JellySlayer]

Suddenly a stream of acid pours down from the ceiling! Your blessed girdle of greed [+0, +0] is destroyed! Your uncursed amulet of free action is destroyed! Your blessed helm of water breathing [+7, +5] is destroyed! You uncursed fencing gloves of fidelity [+3, +1] {Ch+6} are destroyed!
54 alertness/27 dex.

If you managed to ate giant slug corpse - that might be different for you:P

Most PCs can get acid and fire resistance quite early in the game, which mitigate the effect of trap damage significantly. And if you lose a bunch of gear, well, it happens. Most gear is replaceable. There's very few items in your inventory that are likely to lead to a crisis if you lost them unexpectedly. I rarely bother with detect traps anymore... except for the Mana Temple, the trap density in other areas isn't so big of a deal that I miss not having it (and in the MT, I'd prefer to use the wand).

[grobblewobble]

Suddenly a stream of acid pours down from the ceiling! Your blessed girdle of greed [+0, +0] is destroyed! Your uncursed amulet of free action is destroyed! Your blessed helm of water breathing [+7, +5] is destroyed! You uncursed fencing gloves of fidelity [+3, +1] {Ch+6} are destroyed!

- heavily trapped areas: go in without any vulnerable items on you first, set off as many traps as you like, go back, heal, equip items (if you need them). Zero need for the skill to detect the traps without any risk of the above happening.

- random traps in other areas: detect traps doesn't help to prevent the above, unless you apply it before every move..

Detect traps is completely useless, except in the very early game maybe.

[asdf]

- heavily trapped areas: go in without any vulnerable items on you first, set off as many traps as you like, go back, heal, equip items (if you need them). Zero need for the skill to detect the traps without any risk of the above happening.

Detect traps is completely useless, except in the very early game maybe.

You forgot trapped doors, and while they are not required - rewards from Darkforge/Pyramid/Minotaur Maze greatly helps your character. Especially Maze with its +14 St/+12 To/+12 Pe/-2 Wi/+6 everything else/best melee weapon in the game/random artifact/4 PoCC reward. Doing Maze without Detect Traps... 1 char out of 100 perhaps could do it, but why do you want to do it, when you have guaranteed skill that will immensely help you there?

And you advice to heavily trapped areas... are you seriously drop your whole inventory + some items you wear near you (monsters could block you/pick up smth/kill you without those items) or on another level (every time?...) when you encounter row of traps/trapped area without wand of trap detection? Or would you rather get guaranteed skill and complete them without any hassle with traps?

[JellySlayer]

You forgot trapped doors, and while they are not required - rewards from Darkforge/Pyramid/Minotaur Maze greatly helps your character.

Pyramid and Darkforge do not have enough traps to be worried about. I just run through them. For the Maze... detect traps doesn't help much unless you are searching or applying it, so it's probably not all that useful in the Maze. Anyway, the Maze it's pretty safe just to leave 95 percent of your inventory at the entrance and just walk through the traps. Or, better yet, just use scroll of magic mapping and teleport and you shouldn't have that many trap problems..

Trapped doors can be opened with keys, which are readily available. Or just carry a couple pickaxes and dig around if you're feeling paranoid.

And you advice to heavily trapped areas... are you seriously drop your whole inventory + some items you wear near you (monsters could block you/pick up smth/kill you without those items) or on another level (every time?...) when you encounter row of traps/trapped area without wand of trap detection? Or would you rather get guaranteed skill and complete them without any hassle with traps?

This is really only necessary for the Mana Temple and the Maze. It's minimal hassle. You can certainly do this for the Pyramid or the Griffyard if you'd like I suppose.

[Stingray1]

I conclude, it is still a fair test of perseverance for a character to become a member of the thieves guild. If he plays normally and pick-pocket the easier pick-pocketable monsters (s)he should be eligible around lvl 10-13 depending on R/C.

Pump it a bit during leveling, only start practicing in the 30s and quit after ~5 tries. The success rate is good in the 40s, so most normal(not generated in tension/threat rooms, vaults, special levels) monsters will be picked in 5 or fewer tries.

I haven't noticed any increase in the quality/quantity of items.

Sidenote - Acid Blood is awesome in the Animated Forest, just go totally naked.

[sytar6]

I can't help but be somewhat perplexed by all the things Jellyslayer finds to be readily available. Acid resistance? It's very easy to kill an entire mound of ants and not get a corpse. Fire resistance as an intrinsic is a total crapshoot, especially in the early game. Just use a scroll of magic mapping and teleport... game before last I had to go through the ToEF without any SoMM because none dropped all game. In the lightning vortex thread I'm told that lightning resistance is easy to acquire from the Druid's cave. Don't know how many lightning lizards I've seen there, but I'm usually not up to killing them when I'm at that level and I suspect you'd have to herd a caravan of cats before you found one that dropped a corpse. Maybe around the time that you go beyond the Dwarven Portal keys are readily available, but even then I find myself having to kick down doors.

Not that I'm not firmly in the detect traps camp for anything other than the early game. The equipment damage can be extremely severe, but that's why I tend to always carry back-ups of every item which can be destroyed. Any valuable items like Spellbooks/PoCC/SoRC/PoGA/Scroll of Defense etc I keep stashed away in a door'd off corner in DT above Waldenbrook in the early game and later in the Ogre village heading to the mid-early game. If I'm playing an especially delicate character I might pop in to holeinthewall at level 1, train with Yergius, train the skill after I get to level 4~, and complete the quest around level 6-7~. It can be really helpful in early game survival when you don't have duplicates of each item. For the most part, I don't really bother with detect traps anymore. I'm playing an Assassin now (yay for not having to do the quest), and it's saved a bunch of his equipment, so it's useful, but hardly necessary. I'd have to admit it's a pretty significant handicap to play without it though, since you're almost definitely going to have some depressing times with those rune-trap doors.