The Heads Up Display

[Greyling]

(Standard disclaimer: This isn't an RFE, I'm just tossing ideas out there for us to discuss.)

Currently, ADOM's HUD displays a lot of information that is relatively unimportant, and doesn't display information that seems much more important. Right now, it shows a lot of "input statistics", or the numbers the game only uses to calculate "output statistics", like melee and ranged to hit values, melee and ranged damage values, carrying capacity, perception distance, and so on. But it is the output statistics that really matter, and you have to go to the character sheet to see those. That seems backwards.

Veteran players often complain about how exaggerated the effects of stat drains are, and I think the current HUD is one of the reasons for that exaggeration. Because the value for the strength attribute is much more apparent than actual melee damage, for instance, changes in strength are probably seen as being much more pivotal than they actually are. Obviously, it is melee damage and carrying capacity that matter, not strength itself.

So, wouldn't it be better if attributes like strength and agility were just displayed on the character sheet, and the HUD was instead used to show more important information?

One thing that I would really like to see added to the HUD is the date and time. Currently, I don't think players feel very "connected" to the current time as they play ADOM. But it is a pivotal part of gameplay and the plot! The whole game is a race against the clock, and that clock should always be visible. I know you can look on the character sheet to see it, but it could also be substituted for plenty of less important information that is currently on the HUD, like the PC's perception score.

The point is that we have almost an entire line in the HUD that could be used to display other information if attributes were just shown on the character sheet. And isn't there a lot of relevant information that could fit on that line?

[Saracen]

I can't really support any of these ideas. Sorry

[Greyling]

I can't really support any of these ideas. Sorry

Saracen, I appreciate your frankness, but I think it's pretty obvious that none of these ideas are ever going to be implemented no matter who supports them. What I'd like to know are the specifics of what you do and don't like about them, how you think they could be improved, why you think they cannot be improved because they are completely beyond hope, etc.

Basically, I would really appreciate more than just one line of feedback.

Again, please remember this is not an RFE.

[Saracen]

Yes, I could have said more than one sentence... I had just woked up and my mind was kind of foggy...
Here goes.

One of the main reasons I like Adom so much is that I can develop my char. I like to see my stats as they go up.
I do not need to know my exact burden levels, to-hit modifier or view distance. If I carry too much stuff I'm strained, from the map I see how far I can see and if I miss a lot of hits, the to-hit modifier is low. Also, when you play adom as long as I have, you have an innate feeling about the time elapsed. And it's really important only when you are going for Keriax, or waiting for silvernight.
It's much easier to notice stat increases/decreases if you see them all the time. You might miss some drains caused by unidentified stat-abusing equipment.

[Greyling]

Okay, let me try to address some of you concerns here, Saracen.

One of the main reasons I like Adom so much is that I can develop my char. I like to see my stats as they go up.

Most people do. The trouble is, attribute changes just don't mean as much as you think. You see your strength drained by one point, and you think something terrible has happened, because you don't see how little that affects your PC's actual abilities. Look, "Strength" as an abstract quantity is meaningless. It's only when the game uses it in calculations that it has any impact on gameplay.

And this really is a problem. Periodically, players start RFE's asking to reverse or otherwise mitigate attribute drains because they seem so much worse than they are. Whey do they seem worse than they are? Because most players don't see what they actually do, they just see the change in their attributes.

I do not need to know my exact burden levels, to-hit modifier or view distance.

View distance as a terrible example, I admit. I was just trying to point out that more relevant information could be displayed. And if you don't need to know to hit modifiers, or melee damage, for that matter, then what do you need to know? These are values that actually have an impact on how the game is played. Tell me, how exactly does "Dexterity" affect to hit values? You don't know without checking or testing, and neither does just about anyone else. It's fun to see your character's dexterity score, but it tells you [I]absolutely nothing[I] about what they can do.

Again, the point is not that attributes should now be invisible or inaccessible. They are still right there on the character sheet. The point is that changes in to hit or melee damage are more important statistics that are updated more often than attributes and have a bigger impact on gameplay than attributes do. It's a matter of priority.

If I carry too much stuff I'm strained

Maybe burden was a bad example, although it's hard to think how it would hurt to show that instead of the PC's perception score.

and if I miss a lot of hits, the to-hit modifier is low.

That sounds like an argument against keeping track of exact values for any stats. You could argue you don't need to see DV or PV either by that logic, since you could just watch how rapidly your character's HP decreases.

Look, to-hit is very important (I mean, come on, it determines how often you actually do damage in combat). And I still don't understand how it is more useful to see a value for "Dexterity" than for to-hit. I mean, if you think to-hit is meaningless information, then dexterity should really be pointless to know, since it's main purpose is to determine to-hit. (I think it also affects DV and things like lock picking success, but I'm pretty sure it's main impact is on to-hit.)

Also, when you play adom as long as I have, you have an innate feeling about the time elapsed. And it's really important only when you are going for Keriax, or waiting for silvernight.

Saracen, you can't tell how many days have passed or what time it is unless you look at the character sheet and you know it. The only exception to that is if you happen to be in the wilderness when a message about the day/night cycle is displayed, and there are plenty of times you can miss that. Even if you caught it every time, are you telling me you are going to count the number of days that have elapsed since you started?

Time is important because of background corruption, silvernight/darknight, and also because the game is about stopping the spread of chaos before it destroys the world. There is an intrinsic time element to that.

It's much easier to notice stat increases/decreases if you see them all the time. You might miss some drains caused by unidentified stat-abusing equipment.

You would still get messages like "your muscles soften". And you would see that an attribute had decreased, because you would have easy access to the statistics that the attribute actually impacted. Again, if you get a stat drain now, there is no way to see what it means. Even if you check to see what your melee damage is after getting strength drained, you are not going to remember what it was before hand, unless you had just looked at it.

[_Ln_]

like melee and ranged to hit values, melee and ranged damage values, carrying capacity, perception distance, and so on

Can't say I see any personal interest to see all of this values:
- Not sure anyone cares about to-hit?
- Melee damage is typically interesting for early game, in the endgame you either use absolutely top weapons (swords of sharpness, eternium two-handers) or slayers
- Knowing carrying capacity is absolutely useless, IMHO. You have Burden levels already, isn't it enough?
- Perception distance can be seen as-is.

In any case, I can't agree with your base assumption that players don't want to see their primary attributes from which everything else is determined. For me it's the other way around. Maybe it comes from playing experience, where I already know what stat determines what. It is also a matter of habit of course but I can understand the logic of such choice for the HUD and fully support it no matter for how long I've played.

The idea I liked is displaying game time. Perhaps we can set it as an option for dynamic display?

[gut]

i care about to-hit.

also, adom-tas even displays the rng state onscreen

[JellySlayer]

That sounds like an argument against keeping track of exact values for any stats. You could argue you don't need to see DV or PV either by that logic, since you could just watch how rapidly your character's HP decreases.

Look, to-hit is very important (I mean, come on, it determines how often you actually do damage in combat). And I still don't understand how it is more useful to see a value for "Dexterity" than for to-hit. I mean, if you think to-hit is meaningless information, then dexterity should really be pointless to know, since it's main purpose is to determine to-hit. (I think it also affects DV and things like lock picking success, but I'm pretty sure it's main impact is on to-hit.)

If I had the choice, I would probably have the following attributes always visible:
-Number of missiles currently in missile slot.
-Speed
-Energy cost for last action
-HP/PP (of course)
-PV/DV
-Melee/Missile to-hit and to-damage
-Tactics setting

There's probably a few more that I'd like to include, but having those accessible would be pretty nice.

Saracen, you can't tell how many days have passed or what time it is unless you look at the character sheet and you know it.

Ctrl-e.

[Greyling]

Can't say I see any personal interest to see all of this values:
- Not sure anyone cares about to-hit?

Your argument doesn't make sense. If you don't care about to-hit, you don't care about dexterity. It's the only visible stat I can think of that dexterity determines which isn't already displayed on the HUD. No one knows what dexterity does just by looking at the number that is displayed. Dexterity is only meaningful because of the calculations that use it.

- Melee damage is typically interesting for early game, in the endgame you either use absolutely top weapons (swords of sharpness, eternium two-handers) or slayers?

If you care about strength for any reason other than carrying capacity, you care about melee damage. It is logically inconsistent to say that you do not want to see carrying capacity or melee damage in the HUD but you do want to see strength. Strength is what determines these things (I think dexterity may also have a role in melee damage, but you see what I mean)

- Knowing carrying capacity is absolutely useless, IMHO. You have Burden levels already, isn't it enough?
- Perception distance can be seen as-is.

I already said perception distance was a dumb example. The point is not even that my examples are the best additions to the HUD, they may all be terrible. The point is that there are more relevant statistics that could be displayed there.

In any case, I can't agree with your base assumption that players don't want to see their primary attributes from which everything else is determined. For me it's the other way around. Maybe it comes from playing experience, where I already know what stat determines what. It is also a matter of habit of course but I can understand the logic of such choice for the HUD and fully support it no matter for how long I've played.

I never assumed players didn't want to see attributes. They do, but it leads to confusion about what those attributes do. Pretty much nobody knows how much impact an increase or decrease a point of strength or agility has on melee damage or to-hit. You may know what attributes affect what outputs, but I would imagine that the majority of people playing the game do not know the magnitude of these effects. That is why we periodically have RFE's suggesting stat drains be tuned down.

[Greyling]

Ctrl-e.

I thought Saracen was claiming he intuitively knew the time and date without checking any in game records. My point was that he did have to check something, and so would anyone else.