Tackling the new quests & maps for ADOM

[Phoobnahr]

we can all agree that people have different definitions of what is "grindy", but to suggest that if you explore a level beyond finding the down stairs and immediately proceeding is "a grind" seems a bit overstated to me.

I see your point that you should be able to reach level 50 without having to gain the experience currently required, but I disagree. You say that you shouldn't be required to play more of the game to gain higher experience levels, but it seems to me that if all a player does is clear all the required areas presented to them in the game and still reaches level 50, that the problem isn't with the current experience curve, but rather with your expectation that you be rewarded with full experience for less than full completion.

Part of the challenge of speedy play is that you are less prepared for the dangers you'll face. Being under-leveled because you didnt fully explore all levels you traversed is part and parcel of this challenge.

[Grond]

Part of the challenge of speedy play is that you are less prepared for the dangers you'll face. Being under-leveled because you didnt fully explore all levels you traversed is part and parcel of this challenge.

Fair enough, although for me it is more about having fun with some of the higher-level class powers than the difficulty. Looking at your YAVP, I will note that even your post D:50 character was barely scraping by with 20 million experience (and good/great learner). A high elven priest or human fighter might have missed out on the last level, and anything slower-leveling than that would have missed out on several.

[Phoobnahr]

yeah, I was aware that as a human he was leveling up faster than some other characters might have, and he grabbed good learner somewhere around level 30, but great learner was one of his very last talents so it wasn't really that much of a difference maker...

However, as I also noted, he avoided several of the high DL areas in the game, completely eschewing visits to the Crumbling dungeon and Blue Dragon Caves. A character in his same position that felt underleveled when approaching D:50 would have had both of those places as a significant source of supplementary XP

[Phoobnahr]

Looking at your YAVP, I will note that even your post D:50 character was barely scraping by with 20 million experience

Actually my YAVP shows that he scored 20 million points, which is not the same as xp, but rather a function of many factors, including points of spells known, skills known, locations visited, gate closing conditions, piety, etc (of which Im sure experience is an important factor), but to my knowledge, character logs do not list experience points... I certainly dont see it anywhere in Cricket's .flg

[Grond]

Actually my YAVP shows that he scored 20 million points, which is not the same as xp, but rather a function of many factors, including points of spells known, skills known, locations visited, gate closing conditions, piety, etc (of which Im sure experience is an important factor), but to my knowledge, character logs do not list experience points... I certainly dont see it anywhere in Cricket's .flg

Oh whoops. I misread
You can check your exp total in your high score, if you'd like to share.

EDIT: My guess would be the actual exp total was even lower than 20 million, since you entered D:50 with something like 14 million.

[Phoobnahr]

You can check your exp total in your high score, if you'd like to share.

EDIT: My guess would be the actual exp total was even lower than 20 million, since you entered D:50 with something like 14 million.

19,453,276

I cleared D:50 in its entirety (though I handled and destroyed both levers beforehand just in case). Cricket's Acid bolt and teleportation made pretty short work of all the Balors, none of them really gave me any trouble. I didn't even have Acid Ball, I never found a book (though I did find and read a spellbook of wish). I didn't use my ball spells much on D50 anyway; after depositing the Water orb on D48 I didn't have any means of getting my willpower back up above 48. I was going to dual wield Purifier and the Sword of Nonnak, but somehow I lost the sword of Nonnak, it wasnt in my barbarian glade stash or in the shops in Dwarftown or Lawenilothehl. Honestly have no idea what I did with it.

All the talk i've been seeing about getting characters to D50 at around level 30 has really intrigued me and made me want to step up my game somewhat and try a variation in play style... The idea is exciting but also somewhat daunting... after decades of playing ADoM i've settled into a style that is to say the least, quite deliberate, in some cases downright slow, but I prefer my characters in the mid to late game to be completely prepared for an area before they walk into it. I play the early game with a real Devil-may-care attitude, but once I've invested the time to go beyond the Pyramid, the risk of losing a character causes such palpable anxiety that I'd rather take an extra hour or so leveling up than dive too deep too fast...

A lot of that I can probably get over by more liberally using my powerful emergency measures like wands, prayers, etc (Cricket asked for only two divine interventions, a crowning and a post crowning), but what I really don't know how to get past is not eating up huge amounts of time travelling through the wilderness... The way I currently play, it would be completely impossible for me to reach D50 before day 90 unless I find Seven League boots very early in the game (as was the case with Cricket).

I really wish the Beloved by Fate achievement wasn't bugged, as my next few characters will probably be selected class/race combos rather than my usual [f]ate decides, and I would really like to have that achievement (seeing as I earned it).

[_Ln_]

are you suggesting that fully exploring every level you come to is "an incredibly grindy slog"?

Since this discussion was prompted by my post, I feel like I should respond.

Yes, personally I believe this. I typically skip exploring (beyond finding the staircase) all common levels that do not have extra features. I don't really see the point as they are empty.

Your priest win took 150k turns, which is more than 1.5x times longer than most of my games (except when I indulge in smithing or something like that). And your char still didn't reach lvl50.

I don't want to assume, but you probably didn't spend outrageous amount of time without combat (reading books, farming herbs, whatnot). My rough estimate for 150k turns is probably 15+ hours game time. If you can't reach max level in ADOM in this time, something is wrong. This isn't a plot-heavy western RPG title where reaching max level in a single game takes some effort. In ADOM you spend the majority of time in combat cause there is not much else to do; it's the only source of XP. I don't want to play games where late game powers (which are sometimes unique) never come into play.

[Soirana]

I don't want to play games where late game powers (which are sometimes unique) never come into play.

Play ultras in such case...

Moore seriously Cup-born gnome farmer going for ultra and Raven-born troll barbarian gate-closer have different experiences toward leveling and late class powers. Even if you cur out extremes, adjusting so that most chars reach lv50 somewhat before means ultras spend good chunk of their game 'without character progression'.

Honestly, in 1.1.1 xp situation wasn't much better it just that player could kill few XP rich monsters (cat lord, greater vault wyrms, Shadaar) to propel through progression thing.IMHO, late levels have a bit absurd XP requirements.

p.s. I also don't fully explore levels from ToEF onwards, since there is no real incentive to do that.

[Phoobnahr]

Your priest win took 150k turns, which is more than 1.5x times longer than most of my games (except when I indulge in smithing or something like that). And your char still didn't reach lvl50.

Well actually he did reach level 50, but he entered D50 slightly below level 50 which may be what you mean... If it had been important to me that he be level 50 before reaching D50 (which seems like a somewhat arbitrary distinction to me), he likely would have been able to cross that threshold by exploring the crumbling dungeon or the Blue Dragon Caves, both of which he avoided because I just wanted a win... its been awhile.
Also, since I wasnt really playing with concern for turncount, I did spend a great deal of time reading books and farming herbs, in particular I spent many turns after closing the gate reading every single book in my stash until it disappeared (including a spellbook of wish). I am something of a packrat so this may have been 40 or 50 books just in that one sitting. In retrospect it is possible that I would have received more points for the lower turncount than I did for the increased spell knowledge, but I really wasn't thinking of the turncount at the time.

In any event, to stay on topic, It doesn't seem unbalanced to me for a character who dives as fast as possible (which is to say, leaving random levels unexplored and diving as soon as you find the down stairs) to be somewhat underleveled by the time they reach D50. Again, that is part of the risk of diving faster. It would seem that for a player capable of surviving the deep CoC even without approaching level 50, that if they wish to have access to the late game powers, then that is what the additional challenges of an ultra ending are for. I am in no way criticizing players who play in this manner, but I don't see how players are automatically entitled to reach level 50 by the time they reach D50 even if they dive as fast as possible... It also seems to me that with the experience curve calibrated the way it is, that the development team feels the same way (though the balancing of the experience curve is likely such a complicated and delicate process that I would hardly bank on my views being congruent with those of Thomas and the developers).

In any event, I would assert that a character who fully explores most of the areas of the game and reaches level 50 just before or just after entering D50 is a good argument for a well-calibrated experience curve. Conversely, characters who dive as fast as they can being lower level when they reach the bottom seems like an appropriate and intended feature. Adjusting the experience curve to facilitate faster endgame leveling would amount to a significant across-the-board buff to all characters, which is not something I often see argued around here...

I would say that if the leveling curve should be adjusted at all it should be in the midgame, getting from level 20 to level 30 seems to take about half of my playtime for a successful character, and I have a tremendous amount of characters on my highscore list that die during this range because they get impatient and try to proceed even though they're unprepared (and I am apparently not yet an expert enough ADoM player to survive the deep CoC at the lower level range). Infact I have never lost a character past level 30 since 1.1.1, and have dozens of characters killed in their early 20s (usually in the tower of eternal flames or the Cavernous levels above the Tomb of the High Kings)

[Grond]

I would say that if the leveling curve should be adjusted at all it should be in the midgame, getting from level 20 to level 30 seems to take about half of my playtime for a successful character...

This is somewhat a consequence of how the exp curve is set up - the halfway point between 1 and 30 is ~26 - and it applies all the way up (halfway to 50 is ~38). Perhaps this would be okay if the monsters scaled up their exp to this extent, but they really don't. Instead you have a few exp piñatas (some of the elemental temple monsters, greater vaults, and of course, greater molochs), and the rest is worth very little. This is why fully exploring all the feature-less lower CoC levels is considered something of a waste of time, and why it's much less of a drastic speed strat than you are making it out to be.

JellySlayer sums this up quite well in his now-ancient RFE (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2488) - since the time of writing some of the bigger piñatas were toned down, and well, here we are.

EDIT: To be fair, we did get IQD and random dungeons since then, but that pretty much amounts to one piñata (greater vault) and a few more chances to get a greater moloch threat room.