Candleborn troll assassins... Healing or herbalism?

[santamaria]

Being trollish and candleborn should (I guess?) probably be enough to survive long enough to get spenseweed, depending on the usual luck it takes to not die regardless.

I really like having herbalism, but I'm not sure how much damage I do to my character's career when I make that decision. And herbalism can be wished for, if I'm lucky enough to get a wish.

In favour of taking the carpenter quest, I get access to the healer's mercy reward, and a way to train up that eyesore bridgebuilding skill. Seeing another high number in that skill list will make me feel better.

How effective is the healing skill? For a candleborn troll? How effective is a candleborn troll's regeneration without healing?

Save the carpenter?

Or..

Assassinate the black druid?

Any thoughts on the topic?

[Soirana]

I think correct answer is do not play troll.

Natural HP and MP regen is massively overrated.

Let me see troll assassin arround 1HP per 17 turns, drake assassin 1hp per 28. Per 1k turns natural regen would give somehwere 58 and 35 HP. In other words troll gains 1HP each 43ish turns over drake. I seriously believe spitting down couple hard monster here and there saves way more HP.

As Candle goes after fixes it is 2HP per 20turns . It is matter of taste but I'd stil6l go for Healing since herbs are still farmable without herbalism - just need to uncurse them once or twice.
[so candleborn troll recovers ~158 in 1k turns which is good in early levels but in teens one probably needs source of regeneration -- healing at 100 would add another 83hp [that is roughly 1/12 chance per turn] per 1k to total of 238].

Now if I get through Malte's postings correctly [which was not like ever checked in modern times] - he claims that candle does not simply get 2 hp xturns, but rather they get 1hp xturns and each time they get hp from healing/natural regen/Candle trigger [not rings/bracers/crowns/artifacts] they get another +1.
So if this true candleborn troll would get roughly 216 hp without healing and 376 with maxed healing [as far as I've get Malte if natural regen and healing triggers same turn char gets not two but just one extra point of HP].

I'll probably check Malte's theory and fix wiki data if I have time on Sunday.

[persy]

I'd go for herbalism. I see candle/healing/regen as something discrete - good if you have at least one, bad otherwise. If you have to rely on magnitude of it then you are doing something wrong. Like constantly meleeing things you shouldn't. Herbalism will give you on-demand healing, which is a lot better than more powerful regen.

Also I believe that current herb system is bad - you shouldn't be able to identify herbs by coordinates they grow in. Traps system was reworked for a reason

[SinsI]

Healing skill is completely irrelevant to trolls, Candle-born or not - it serves to slowly restore health during exploration, and Trolls are already great at it. Burst healing via spenseweed and pepper petals is way, way more important, since crystals of health are too rare to rely on and spellbooks are so hard to read for trolls. What are you gonna do if you are down to 25% health in a boss fight and all you have is Healing skill?

[divij]

assasins must take herbalism always cause it goes so well with their alchemy.....in around 5-10 minutes of scumming with herbalism approximately on 40/100, and 2 squares of herbs, you will get around 75-100 herbs.. that means a wand of fireball with 40 charges! after this, i ALWAYS do the bugswil cause it is so easy with an assasin with alchemy...more so with a troll assasin....especially if your Wi>32, which is easy with water orb....then i use the magic mapping scrolls to do the maze and once i get me assasini hands on AoTME, i can one hit splatter a greater titan or greater moloch!

[Soirana]

What are you gonna do if you are down to 25% health in a boss fight and all you have is Healing skill?

Use that nice heap o uncursed spense which I've got without ever bothering with Herbalism... Or if it serious fight I drink healing potion anyway.

It is certainly not like one can not pick herbs without herbalism and loosing blessed ones is like superminor issue.

Edit: If some do not parse main point of Malte's version - Candle makes Healing about 2x better than for non Candle borns. [better a sin giving 2x amount of HP per same time frame]

assasins must take herbalism always cause it goes so well with their alchemy.....in around 5-10 minutes of scumming with herbalism approximately on 40/100, and 2 squares of herbs, you will get around 75-100 herbs.. that means a wand of fireball with 40 charges! after this, i ALWAYS do the bugswil cause it is so easy with an assasin with alchemy...more so with a troll assasin....especially if your Wi>32, which is easy with water orb....then i use the magic mapping scrolls to do the maze and once i get me assasini hands on AoTME, i can one hit splatter a greater titan or greater moloch!

And in which part Herbalism is a must? Cause it seems only replacing 5-10 mins with ~20 for giving character better long term survivability.

[littlebrather]

Healing skill is completely irrelevant to trolls, Candle-born or not - it serves to slowly restore health during exploration, and Trolls are already great at it.

Nope, there is another vital option of Healing, and healer, accessible via that quest. Sickness is of great danger for early chars. Usually having less than 12To AND Healing and become Sick is near 100% death, while high To chars (as TrAs surely is) may hope to heal naturally.
That may be just my hasty play style, but any time I decided to get Herbalism from this pair, wererats and corpse fiends become my best friends, and ofc certain herbs become near as rare as amulet of hunger %)

[Blasphemous]

I think that healing is only better than herbalism early on and only when it's past 70-80 or even maxed.
At a later point, you just find enough PV and healing herbs to offset slower regeneration.
Past 20 PV you really don't need natural regeneration/healing that much and for emergencies you have potions and prayers (which you should have aplenty by this point).

Farming herbs without herbalism is painful and very ineffective, no matter how you look at it.
Blessed spense is so much better than uncursed, plus you get plenty of other useful herbs and in a fraction of time it takes to farm similar amounts without herbalism.
Preferably if you can get gardening too, you will maximize gains from herbalism with quickly farmed hundreds of blessed spense and little time lost.
If I have a choice, I will always go with herbalism+gardening versus healing, even if I'm not candle.
For herbalism alone, you're left to take the little scraps that RNG throws at you - one patch here, one there, 3-4 in the big room once you clear the rat infestations, worms, spider factories etc. so it's a bit harder.
If I were a candle troll assassin, I'd definitely go for herbalism and then wish for gardening at some point, sooner rather than later.

[Dlightfull]

I never used herbs more than RNG threw at me and i end up with stupidly overpowered chars anyway. Even if i have Herbalsim, i never get gardening, i just cba to take care of a farm. But i am also lazy and i love the Healing skill, that just makes me push less buttons.

So, as with almost everything else, it's a matter of choice. If i ever have to choose from those 2 skills, i will always choose Healing, no matter what.

[Soirana]

So I've checked some stuff:
Theory was of Twinge [I guess most know what this means]
Theory is mostly correct - so Candle borns get 2HP each time healing/natural regen triggers.
Part about adding once per turns does not seem correct - healing+candle bonus same turn -- is 4 hp not 3.

Conclusion is obvious more testing not involving messing with memory editor is needed. In other words volunteers are wellcome.
[chuckles]