Late game still unchallenging

[Kordianus]

And you'd be throwing newbies at it too - I'd never recommend that someone who had never played XCom play Long War...

You have completely missed the point. People complained that long war is *too long*... not that it is *imbalanced*.... The game maintains it's difficulty from the beginning to the end - BY DESIGN. If you set it to max difficulty then yes, it will be hard as f..k to play, but it will be hard as f..k to play from the beginning to the end.... You also have options to spice it up and customize however you like but that's beside the point. The point is that the core of the game is well balanced. Whenever players found something that was considered a universal strategy and that was applicable in most situations, devs made an effort to balance it. As a result there were hundreds of different strategies to win the game but none of them was considered predominant. No one had to put artificial restrictions on oneself not to use some functionalities not to spoil the game... You were actually forced to use all functionalities to deal with various situations as there is no "out of jail free card".

In Adom right now the situation is different. Late game I do not give a f... about 90% of skillset. Why bother if I can teleport or heal. Sure I can do something fancy once in a while but mostly it is pressing forward to victory and healing whenever you need to. No real planning involved. If something goes wrong you simply react to it with those two mentioned "universal keys".

P.S.
In long war devs explicitly advise not to play max difficulty... it is in the game manual.

[manseman]

I have even easier one... pick a drakeling with alchemy.... avoid ice queen... go be OP everywhere else...

Or don't. Just like you don't need to play XCOM on the easiest difficulty level.

[Kordianus]

Or don't. Just like you don't need to play XCOM on the easiest difficulty level.

Seriously man... I am already limiting myself to mist elven thiefs (wolf born) that were considered hardest race/class combo to play when there was a thread about it some time ago... The choice was between mist elven thief and chaos knight with bad starting corruptions. I believe that in the end thiefs were considered more difficult because of the starting stats and equipment... I do not even consider playing anything else than mist elves as I would have to start complaining even about early game as well....

When I picked the game back some two weeks ago I chose a random char. It was trollish something (do not even remember)... I got bored after an hour at level 11 or so...

[manseman]

Seriously man... I am already limiting myself to mist elven thiefs (wolf born) that were considered hardest race/class combo to play when there was a thread about it some time ago... The choice was between mist elven thief and chaos knight with bad starting corruptions. I believe that in the end thiefs where considered more difficult because of the starting stats and equipment... I do not even consider playing anything else than mist elves as I would have to start complaining even about early game as well....

Well, then it seems that perhaps you've simply grown out of this game. It's an adventure game, not chess. Once you know all the secrets and all the mechanics you can't really expect it to magically remain challenging forever.

[Kordianus]

Well, then it seems that perhaps you've simply grown out of this game. It's an adventure game, not chess. Once you know all the secrets and all the mechanics you can't really expect it to magically remain challenging forever.

Hence this thread... there is a reason why I put *still* in the subject. Since the game is still in the development there is still possibility to make changes that can satisfy even such an "old timer" as me.

[Harwin]

Whenever players found something that was considered a universal strategy and that was applicable in most situations, devs made an effort to balance it.

Except... you're a spoiled player. One of the joys of playing strategic games is figuring *out* which strategies lead to superior outcomes. PoCC are super powerful against various enemies, to the extent that I've heard at least some people say they're too powerful and should be nerfed. But if you're an unspoiled player, and you figure *out* that you can do this... wow, that's pretty great. There's definitely a balancing act to that, of course. If a strategy is too obviously predominant, then it isn't interesting to discover and just warps everything else. Teleport is powerful, but it doesn't solve the mana temples - so you still have to figure out how to survive situations without it. You can't do everything with it.

Strategies are also not always balanced across different play skills. When making 'Magic: The Gathering' Richard Garfield didn't try as hard to balance every card because he didn't expect people to see all the cards, much less collect as many of them as they did. The Power Nine (the 9 clearly best cards in the base set) weren't so bad if you couldn't collect all of them and/or 4 of each. People playing in one game environment (with a few friends) had a good play experience with these, people who collected lots of cards to play in tournaments had a different play experience.

I'm concerned about changes that change the play experience too much for newbies. Right now, veterans have the tools to make the game harder, to "mod" it. But even if your proposed game is more balanced for veterans (which I'm not clear it is, but it might be), that doesn't necessarily make it more balanced for newbies, who don't know how to get all that booze, and don't even know what booze DOES.

[Kordianus]

Except... you're a spoiled player. One of the joys of playing strategic games is figuring *out* which strategies lead to superior outcomes. PoCC are super powerful against various enemies, to the extent that I've heard at least some people say they're too powerful and should be nerfed. But if you're an unspoiled player, and you figure *out* that you can do this... wow, that's pretty great.

And the problem here is the following: You have the *aha* moment that is great and fun that you have discovered this by yourself. Then you have another *aha* moment that elemental guardians are basically from now on completely harmless to you as they can be almost completely disabled this way - and this is NOT fun... Nerfing potions of CC so that do have some nasty effect on guardians but does not make them completely harmless will not take away the fun of first *aha* moment, but will still maintain the challange to keep playing next time.

I'm concerned about changes that change the play experience too much for newbies. Right now, veterans have the tools to make the game harder, to "mod" it. But even if your proposed game is more balanced for veterans (which I'm not clear it is, but it might be), that doesn't necessarily make it more balanced for newbies, who don't know how to get all that booze, and don't even know what booze DOES.

You are completely in detetachment to the core of this thread. I proposed to
a/ nerf teleport (I gave more suggestion than just potions of booze)
b/ decrease item drop rates
later I added
c/ make sources of healing more randomized/nerfed

Neither will be too dificult for new players to handle. All players have to deal with those circumstances in the early game, no healing, no teleport, loot is scarce. No reason why they should have trouble with dealing with them later on. Teleport is already banned in certain places and every player needs to know how to deal with it. Item rates nowadays are the same as they were for the past 15 years while the player has much more locations to visit... as a result game is longer and more is generated - that is why I suggested to tune them down. Healing being more randomized... yes, this will make the game overall harder, especially if teleport is nerfed... but still, there are so many options to choose from that it's nothing that can't be dealt with.

Edit:
Come to think of it... item drop rates were probably increased since when I started playing due to introduction of Treasure Hunter talent....(but I do not say that Treasure Hunter should be removed by any means).

[Harwin]

You are completely in detetachment to the core of this thread. I proposed to
a/ nerf teleport (I gave more suggestion than just potions of booze)
b/ decrease item drop rates
later I added
c/ make sources of healing more randomized/nerfed

I believe the amount of teleport charges you get with 0 potions of booze is absolutely not too high. Changing teleport mechanics would make these charges worth even less, affecting newbies.
I believe the amount of teleport charges you get with found potions of booze (no beggars) is possibly too high, possibly not, but probably ok for newbies.

If you believe individual features are unbalanced, why not just submit RFEs to address them individually? And split them up (beggar booze, teleport delay, PoCC, whatever)

[Kordianus]

If you believe individual features are unbalanced, why not just submit RFEs to address them individually? And split them up (beggar booze, teleport delay, PoCC, whatever)

Thinking in terms of individual features is will not solve the overall problem... i.e. Changing TP mechanics without changes to heal is probably worthless. Players will rely on sources of insta heal even more. Also the goal is not to tweak individual features of the game. The goal is to make overall end game more interesting/challenging. Making so that the player has to rely on the entire skillset rather than on particular features of the game....

I suggested nerfing teleport as it seemed like a quick fix, but nerfing teleport is not my ultimate intention... hence the thread... However, I see people are too accustomed to those easy solution that were in the game forever and are not really interested in making the game more challenging. Oh well... Xcom 2 will be released soon.

[pblack]

I guess that if you managed to break ADOM like this you deserve some props. But honestly, that is trying to beat the game, and not the adventure itself. IMO the one ruining your fun is yourself. No disrespect meant at all. TP is fun, it is useful and sometimes downright necessary. But if you make a point of exploiting the game engine like this it is no different than making wish engines. In fact, it is just regular grinding. Very effective, but common and IMO, acceptable grinding.