Tunnel between Dwarfton and surface

[Lasher]

Hmm I don't know. I like the idea of being able to go from dwarftown to the surface, but I don't know about other waypoints. It'd also help explain how the dwarves go outside without going up through the dungeon. As for other waypoints, those I'm not sure about.

A big part of the game is deciding whether to use the Dwarf Halls or the Forest, and only having to do that once or twice would take something away. Also, even though Corruption isn't really an issue too much right now, maybe it'll be toned up in the future.

[Mobius]

and yeah, how do the Ogres get in/out of their cave before the dwarven city opens the stairs? It makes no sense!

[gr3ybird]

Hmm I don't know. I like the idea of being able to go from dwarftown to the surface, but I don't know about other waypoints. It'd also help explain how the dwarves go outside without going up through the dungeon. As for other waypoints, those I'm not sure about.

A big part of the game is deciding whether to use the Dwarf Halls or the Forest, and only having to do that once or twice would take something away. Also, even though Corruption isn't really an issue too much right now, maybe it'll be toned up in the future.

Right, so, the details of implementation are important here. The waypoint wouldn't be right on the other side of the animated forest, for instance. I think a decent place would be the water temple (perhaps appearing after the Snake from Beyond is killed), although as I said Jellyslayer suggested it be all the way down in the casino. Either way, the point is that by the time you have either reach the casino or killed the first orb guardian there is a pretty good chance you can cross either the dwarven halls or the animated forest without much problem.

Again, if you are really concerned about making things too easy for the player we could just go with the conservative implementation and place the waypoints at Terinyo, HMV, Casino, and Dwarftown.

[Tyrnyx]

How would waypoints deal with time? Unless you have SLB trudging through the wilderness counts towards the 90/180/etc day corruption time a lot more than not.

Also waypoints at those points would almost make the fact that Guth gives out potions for the big boss corpses - not a huge deal but currently it feels like I have to trade something (time, possibility of losing the corpse) for the PoCC. Dunno, maybe they should be easier to get. However I envision getting one corpse, trading it in, using the potion to kill the next boss, repeat. But that's just me.

Most of those places you mentioned already have shortcuts in/out. HMV has the wilderness exit (can you even imagine having to through small cave and UD every time? ug.) and the casino is pretty close to D32. I'm just not sure that instant travel to Terinyo should be a thing.

I'm of the opinion that the DH/Forest choice is now, and should remain, important. Going back between dwarftown and the objectives (quest, portal, khelly, graveyard) below DH/Forest frequently shouldn't be a cakewalk.

[gr3ybird]

I feel I have already addressed some of what you are objecting to and you seem not to realize it.

How would waypoints deal with time? Unless you have SLB trudging through the wilderness counts towards the 90/180/etc day corruption time a lot more than not.

Most games would be completed sooner. That's the whole point: to be able to traverse distances in a less time consuming way.

Also waypoints at those points would almost make the fact that Guth gives out potions for the big boss corpses - not a huge deal but currently it feels like I have to trade something (time, possibility of losing the corpse) for the PoCC. Dunno, maybe they should be easier to get. However I envision getting one corpse, trading it in, using the potion to kill the next boss, repeat. But that's just me.

The trade-off for the PoCC is that you do not get to eat the orb guardian corpse. They give very substantial benefits now. And moreover, I suspect that by the time most people confront the second guardian they have multiple PoCC (you get four or five as a reward for the first ice queen quest).

Think about what your objection is here. You are concerned it will be too convenient to get back to Terinyo. But that's exactly the here goal: to streamline gameplay. We cannot be this afraid of change just because it is different. You are seeing even clear improvement as something that is undesirable, because the game will be different afterwards. But again, that's the whole point. To improve things, something has to be changed. Otherwise we would be in the exact same place we started from.

Most of those places you mentioned already have shortcuts in/out. HMV has the wilderness exit (can you even imagine having to through small cave and UD every time? ug.) and the casino is pretty close to D32. I'm just not sure that instant travel to Terinyo should be a thing.

I feel like you are not getting what I am suggesting. The waypoints would let you travel from, say, Dwarftown to the HMV. They wouldn't just be about skipping from the over world to x village, they would be about going from one village to another. There are shortcuts to *some* of the areas, but there are not shortcuts *between* the areas.

If you are resistant to this idea, why do you think it is acceptable to skip the SMC? You could make the exact same arguments about that shortcut that you could about the one across the dwarven halls.

And this all ignores the fact that if there were waypoints in Dwarftown and the Casino, they could not be used to skip the dwarven halls any more than the darkforge short cut that is already there. You aren't even arguing against the idea of waypoints as a whole, you are arguing against *particular* waypoints, which I think are open to discussion.

Why shouldn't fast travel to Terinyo be a thing? There is no reason other than the fact that it would be different from what is currently possible. This is a completely arbitrary argument.

I'm of the opinion that the DH/Forest choice is now, and should remain, important. Going back between dwarftown and the objectives (quest, portal, khelly, graveyard) below DH/Forest frequently shouldn't be a cakewalk.

How many times, exactly, should the player have to cross those two areas? Sure, maybe the first few times are challenging, but should the player have to keep doing so without assistance for the entire game? That is pointless. Again, by the time you get to the casino, you can skip those two areas anyway. Even the creator of the game realizes there is no reason to have to trek through them indefinitely. Why can you not realize the same thing?

When we are talking about skipping particular floors, remember this also: pretty much every pc from midgame on can skip any floor where teleport is allowed after passing it once. The DH are trivial after the first time once you have a wand of teleportation, which is guaranteed, and teleport control, which is almost always acquired by mid game.

[mjkittredge]

I've dealt with this issue by using pickaxes/wands of digging and plowing through the most direct routes from each staircase to the other. Then I've got the ore ready to go for if/when I do smithing. And each return trip is fast and easy, just hold the arrow key and fly through each floor. Characters with lots of casting of teleport or teleportitis + control make it even faster. So it's not too bad.

You can even go crazy and cast earthquake, every room is the big room.

[wzq]

The dwarftown tunnel is a good idea. But Terinyo and HMW are places that you really don't need to visit that many times after you have found Dwarftown.

[manseman]

I really like this idea. Having it attached to one of the Thrundarr quests is thematically appropriate. You could even just put an extra up stairs in the Ogre Cave or something.

I'm trying to think of a nice way that it would be also accessible to CKs. Maybe speaking to Kherab would also reveal it? (uSe ThIs SeCrEt TuNnEl tO sNeAk InTo ThE hOmE oF mY mOrTaL eNeMy). There would be an interesting high-risk option of skipping the entire early CoC if you can get to Kherab early...

Maybe the ogre cave should simply always be accessible even if the quest and the rewards are only available to non-C:s.

[pblack]

OP has my vote.

There's no reason to walk through D:1-9 so many times. It is just a turn-count increaser.

I do not think going crazy with waypoints is the way to go thou. Tenryio is avillage in the middle of the forest. There is no reason to have a "shortcut" to it. Also, preservation of Orb guardian corpses is an aspect of the game that I see no need to mess with. It shouldn't feel like a corpse is just a free PoCC IMO.

[_Ln_]

I think it is possible to set up waypoints as an in-game activity.

There should be special glyphs in the necessary locations, but activating them will require some resources:
permanent stat, PP, HP drain
overcharged teleportation wand/blessed Spellbook of TP + ring/amulet of teleport control + crystals of power

Alternatively, using the waypoints might require the same things as above, although in lighter form. High-DL waypoints might induce significant amounts of corruption, wilderness travel might actually take large amounts of in-game time. Thus, the gameplay improves, but balance-related considerations remain untouched.

This way you can go through parts normally or speed up in exchange for limited resources or grind up to simplify further grinding. Seems like this way everyone should be happy.