ADOM and complication

[Blasphemous]

I think that more variation should be possible for bows, crossbows etc., instead of missiles.
It is the missile weapon that really gives the momentum, adds the kinetic energy and sends the missile flying.
Missiles themselves vary, yes, but the variation should be minimal because the specific way an arrowhead is designed has much less impact than the weapon you shoot it with.

Yes, historically, there were all kinds of arrowheads and they all served different purposes.
However, adom has a simplified armor system and missile damage is calculated against a regular number, without counting material, density, thickness, slope, angle and a number of other things.
Hence, missiles should likewise be simplified and their variation greatly reduced, because that goes in line with the simplified combat system.

It doesn't matter if the manufacturing process differs depending on craftsmen in question.
The ultimate result is that a missile will be shot and its combat effectiveness will be determined in 99% by the PC's skill and weapon in question, not the missile itself, however fancy its design.

Instead of to-hit and to-damage variation (which should be removed entirely, for a fixed added number depending solely on material and affixes) I'd see more prefixes and affixes added, though not too much.
To reflect arrowhead design differences depending on the mode of use, we could have arrows that are ineffective even against lightly armored targets but deadly against unarmored ones.
This is the case of arrowhead shattering upon entering the body and becoming several sharp pieces, damaging a large volume of soft tissue.

Conversely, penetrating missiles should exist which reliably penetrate armor 50% of the time but don't have added damage against unarmored enemies.
Of course we already have penetrating missiles but I'd advocate either removing them or making them much rarer.
Similar variation could be introduced for chance to hit, which would depend on fletchings.

[auricbond]

Damnit, this forum's search function doesn't work. I distinctly remember writing a post talking about an idea for grouping items into units that can be interacted with like regular items, with the top-most item being the one actually interacted with by a certain sorting/filter criterion. You can, if you wish, expand that group into the individually contained items, resort them, etc. This would allow you to equip different piles of arrows as one, among other things.

But a search is not turning it up. In fact, I did a search by my name and the word 'menu' which I know I said before, and nothing came up. wtf.

[gr3ybird]

First of all, yes, I love ADOM "for all the obscure, convoluted, and dated features and mechanics". I love ADOM because it's the most rich and complex game I have tried. I also love some minimalistic games (e.g. Brogue) but that's a different kind of experience. When I play ADOM, I want to have a zillion items interacting in a zillion ways. That's what makes it special, and adds a lot to roleplaying. Brogue is masterful as a game of tactics, skill and careful thought, but it's very poor as a role playing game, ADOM excels there.

Second, what you say is a false dichotomy. The pace of development doesn't have that much to do with complication of mechanics. If you have a look at the features that are currently marked as required for the Steam release milestone ( http://www.adom.de/forums/projectmil...&filter=active ), you will see that they don't have anything to do with this. Most are pure UI issues, some of them quite simple (e.g. race and class suggestions being cut off) and still aren't being addressed. TB himself has often commented on the reasons for the slow pace of development and they are mostly related to personal issues. Furthermore, if you have been following the progress long enough, you will know that when he gets some days off that he can devote to ADOM, he addresses a lot of issues in short periods of time. So from what we know it's not like he starts working on an issue and he gets stuck for hours and hours because it's very difficult to implement, but rather that he just has very little time.

Finally, even if the dichotomy were real (which it isn't), then yes, I'd rather not simplify and have development proceeding at a glacial pace than simplify and have development proceed at a faster pace. OK, I can put up with some reduction in the variety of boni that ammo can get (although it wouldn't be needed with a quiver feature). But definitely the release where the game starts getting rid of throwing clubs, modifiers, hand crossbows, etc. as suggested above will be the release where I save the previous version of the game, disable Steam updates and ignore all subsequent versions.

First, I would like to steer this discussion away from being exclusively about missiles and their modifiers. That was meant to be a particular example of a much more general problem. Second, I understand that *right now* it is the steam release that is taking up all TB's resources, and I understand that the milestones he is addressing right now have nothing to do with this particular issue. This is a separate problem from the steam release, and even when it is finished, this problem will very much still be around.

Second, how can you possibly claim that the high level of complication in ADOM's code could not slow development. Let's not talk about 'false dichotomies', let's look at the logistics of what is going on here. You think that if having x lines of code takes y amount of time to maintain, having 2x lines doesn't take *at least* 2y amounts of time? I don't claim to be an expert in programming, but we both know that the previous statement is absolutely true (and quite conservative). Maybe you don't care about development speed, but I really think you cannot deny the reality of what I am saying here.

You would rather play a game that for a long time to come is going to continue to be very unbalanced and devoid of the many amazing RFE's that have recently been suggested in exchange for the continued presence of hand crossbows, throwing clubs, and minor differences in missile damage? You have an absolute lack of vision. Read Jellyslayer's most recent RFE about new dungeon features. You can't tell me the minor details you are clinging to add more to the game than even *just that one RFE*.

EDIT: Brogue? Really? We take out throwing clubs and somehow that is what we get? Come on, it's totally absurd to even start down this road. Over time most roguelikes become more streamlined and only one that I know of has become Brogue (and that is of course Brogue itself).

[persy]

ADOM became what it is by being a complex and deep game for 20 years. If you want to take away my throwing club, you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands. And it's a club of doom...

+-1 deviations on missiles have to go on the other hand. The idea of different quality of equipment is really good and current implementation complements item destruction mechanics as well, but it just doesn't work with consumable missiles.

[asdalol]

For me, all those little random variations of item PV/DV/to-hit/to-dam make no sense. Yes, it is pleasing sometimes and can help with survavability greatly but not really that important. In the end you can craft those items on your own if you want (scrolls, smithing).

I too think that little variations do not add much to the game, and maybe they should just be dropped for semplicity's sake. Maybe they could be replaced by more frequent (and less significant) pre/suf-fixes.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

First, I would like to steer this discussion away from being exclusively about missiles and their modifiers. That was meant to be a particular example of a much more general problem.

I know, that's why I jumped into the discussion. Simplifying missile modifiers a bit would be fine. Addressing what you call the "general problem" would impoverish ADOM.

Second, I understand that *right now* it is the steam release that is taking up all TB's resources, and I understand that the milestones he is addressing right now have nothing to do with this particular issue. This is a separate problem from the steam release, and even when it is finished, this problem will very much still be around.

Second, how can you possibly claim that the high level of complication in ADOM's code could not slow development. Let's not talk about 'false dichotomies', let's look at the logistics of what is going on here. You think that if having x lines of code takes y amount of time to maintain, having 2x lines doesn't take *at least* 2y amounts of time? I don't claim to be an expert in programming, but we both know that the previous statement is absolutely true (and quite conservative). Maybe you don't care about development speed, but I really think you cannot deny the reality of what I am saying here.

It depends on what kind of code. Here we are not talking about core mechanics, we are talking about item variety and things of the sort. The code for that likely consists in little more than entries in tables, and it probably requires almost zero maintenance.

Also, I insist that there is absolutely no evidence of the so-called "problem" that you mention. TB has mentioned development being slow due to personal issues, lack of time, and the difficulty of coding the UI and integrating it with the ADOM code base. None of that has to do with the variety of items, monsters, etc.

You would rather play a game that for a long time to come is going to continue to be very unbalanced and devoid of the many amazing RFE's that have recently been suggested in exchange for the continued presence of hand crossbows, throwing clubs, and minor differences in missile damage? You have an absolute lack of vision. Read Jellyslayer's most recent RFE about new dungeon features. You can't tell me the minor details you are clinging to add more to the game than even *just that one RFE*.

It still is a false dichotomy. I want both. How exactly does having hand crossbows, throwing clubs, and minor differences in missile damage impact the difficulty of coding that RFE? Answer: it doesn't. In fact, wasting precious time in removing what is already there would probably delay the RFE much more than keeping it.

Anyway, if the dichotomy was real, yes, I would definitely prefer the current state of the game. I want to roleplay trolls with throwing clubs. And drakelings with scurgari. And dual-wield whips. And throw coins with merchants. I want all that amazing universe of possibilities.

EDIT: Brogue? Really? We take out throwing clubs and somehow that is what we get? Come on, it's totally absurd to even start down this road. Over time most roguelikes become more streamlined and only one that I know of has become Brogue (and that is of course Brogue itself).

Brogue is just the extreme example. There are more moderate examples, such as DCSS or ToME, but they are a totally different beast from ADOM. More streamlined, yes, but for that very reason, less rich, less interesting as an RPG experience. I like ADOM for what it is, i.e., a really deep, complex, humongous roguelike, you are proposing transforming it into one more roguelike like all the rest of roguelikes that we already have.

[Tyrnyx]

I said that I'd be OK with the removal of certain things (hand xbows, spears, clubs) because I'm more of a power-gamer. I'm neither proud or ashamed of this, it's simply my style. I might be more of a rarity in this community, I dunno. I play ADOM primarily for the challenge. In no way do I really role-play - perhaps because I've never done D&D. So over time I've thinned out things that were worthless to my play style i.e. hand xbows, spears, and clubs. And if it would help development to have them gone, I would be OK to see them go. But, as many people have said, I don't think it would help development all that much. And, especially important for those interested in the RPG aspect, those things add flavor. The make it the rich game that attracts and keeps those interested in the role-play aspect.

One thing that makes ADOM excellent is it's appeal to multiple types of play-style (well, trending towards people who enjoy frustration). Losing that appeal in favor of speeding development, despite frustrations with the pace, I think would be a poor trade.

On the missiles front: I think that the suggestion of taking out B/U/C status makes so much sense. Minor loss and would cut down on piles a lot.

[gr3ybird]

I know, that's why I jumped into the discussion. Simplifying missile modifiers a bit would be fine. Addressing what you call the "general problem" would impoverish ADOM.

Anyway, if the dichotomy was real, yes, I would definitely prefer the current state of the game. I want to roleplay trolls with throwing clubs. And drakelings with scurgari. And dual-wield whips. And throw coins with merchants. I want all that amazing universe of possibilities.

I think removing code would take time in the short run to save time in the long run. Look, I've spent a lot of time over the past several years trying to learn to program, but I realize I am still very much a beginner, and I realize a lot of people on this forum have probably been programming for decades and/or as a career. So, maybe you are right, and these data structures are much simpler than I realize. But I can't help but notice that the more code I put in a program, the more weird and unintended things happen. And I can't shake the suspicion that the kitchen sink approach to game design that ADOM has really slows the introduction of new features. And I think you want to believe that isn't the case because accepting it would threaten the way you want the game to play.

I hate to go back to missile weapons, but sense throwing clubs are so important to you, the point is this: even if you removed throwing clubs, you could just throw normal clubs. Now, I know that you are going to complain that the missile damage is different for regular and throwing clubs. So, let's just bump up the missile damage for regular clubs a bit to 1d6. Now you have consolidated two weapons into one. And as an added bonus, the missile and melee damage is the same for clubs, giving you a nice symmetry.

You could do this with a lot of different systems in ADOM. A LOT. You're not really even taking things out, you are just removing redundancy. Can you really say the previous example I gave is unreasonable?

ADOM has to grow up one day, Al Khwarizmi. You seem to be so averse to any kind of change that I wonder why you even object to new versions making the alterations I suggest. What you really want is just to keep playing the old versions, forever.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I think removing code would take time in the short run to save time in the long run. Look, I've spent a lot of time over the past several years trying to learn to program, but I realize I am still very much a beginner, and I realize a lot of people on this forum have probably been programming for decades and/or as a career. So, maybe you are right, and these data structures are much simpler than I realize. But I can't help but notice that the more code I put in a program, the more weird and unintended things happen. And I can't shake the suspicion that the kitchen sink approach to game design that ADOM has really slows the introduction of new features. And I think you want to believe that isn't the case because accepting it would threaten the way you want the game to play.

Code that has lots of coupling (dependencies, arrows in a UML diagram) with other code can have that effect. For example, if you introduced steel doors, that could cause a lot of unintended consequences and increase the need for maintenance because a lot of code would have a dependency relation to that: the code for throwing anvils, traps that explode and turn doors into wooden sticks, monsters that can smash doors, etc.

However there is no way that the examples you have been giving (modifiers for arrows, throwing clubs, etc.) can have that kind of effects. Even if from the point of view of the player these things make a richer world, from the point of view of code they are just numbers. Actually they don't even need to be represented as code, the modern way of doing that kind of thing would be to have a file in JSON with the statistics of all weapons, and each weapon would be an entry there. That requires practically zero maintenance. In the case of ADOM, as it predates XML, JSON and all that; and TB himself has often said the code is not as elegant as it could be, maybe the weapons *are* code - but in any case, it's surely template-like code with no dependencies that may have been cumbersome to write, but will still have almost zero maintenance.

I hate to go back to missile weapons, but sense throwing clubs are so important to you, the point is this: even if you removed throwing clubs, you could just throw normal clubs. Now, I know that you are going to complain that the missile damage is different for regular and throwing clubs. So, let's just bump up the missile damage for regular clubs a bit to 1d6. Now you have consolidated two weapons into one. And as an added bonus, the missile and melee damage is the same for clubs, giving you a nice symmetry.

But the thing is that clubs and throwing clubs are different things. Throwing clubs have a design that is optimized for throwing. They are typically short, often curved, angled or with a bulge on one side. Like these: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tXJWwHP3v5...inalWeapns.jpg

On the other hand, regular clubs have a design that is optimized for swinging them and hitting your enemy. They are longer, heavier and almost universally straight, and they may have thorns on the wrong end which later gave way to their descendant the mace: http://www.ringgame.net/SecondAge/weapons/club.jpg

As you can see, they are different weapons and each is optimized for one thing, so it wouldn't make sense to merge them into one.

You could do this with a lot of different systems in ADOM. A LOT. You're not really even taking things out, you are just removing redundancy. Can you really say the previous example I gave is unreasonable?

I think the problem is that you see the game as a symbolic abstraction where you have a set of rules and you have to apply tactics to win according to those rules, while I see the game as something that allows me to actually play a character in a fantasy world. A detailed fantasy world where there are weapons like clubs and throwing clubs, which are things that I actually imagine when my character is fighting in the dungeon, I don't only see them as math formulae and die rolls. This is why you have made an argument for unifying clubs and throwing clubs without even considering what these weapons actually look like, while this is the very first thing I would consider when thinking about such a thing.

Your view is respectable (and I also like to play games from that abstraction point of view, such as the game of Go, or in the roguelike camp, Brogue); but in the particular case of ADOM, its greatest strength and the thing that has always made it remarkable and special is the level of detail of its world from a roleplaying point of view, and not the pure tactical aspect in which Brogue, Sil or maybe even ToME are probably better. So you are asking that ADOM takes steps back in what makes it different, special and the favorite game of many of us, in order to (in theory, because I still call false dichotomy) take steps forward in areas that are perfectly served by other roguelikes.

ADOM has to grow up one day, Al Khwarizmi. You seem to be so averse to any kind of change that I wonder why you even object to new versions making the alterations I suggest. What you really want is just to keep playing the old versions, forever.

Not in the least. I hope that ADOM keeps being modified and I hope to play many new versions. It's just that I want more stuff, not less. Some things that I would like, for example: more whips, staves and scurgari, more artifacts including non-weapon artifacts, more quests for CK's, more spells, more dungeon features, more skills, more potions, more, more, MORE. Not less.

[Blank4u47]

I really wish I could vote for a favorite post. Thank you al-kharwarizmi.