Ratlings are seriously underrated.

[Blank4u47]

I think you are grinding by your definition too. You are "repetitively performing some action"s with each new character to get your puppy and raider lord. That's rather typical, although, players tend to try force certain things (and blame RNG for not cooperating) a lot.

Not true, this is a quest. A quest is the main reason i play an rpg. I try to get 100% success in all the lawful quests as I play, because that's rather the point for me. It's more fun for me than just beating the game. I'm not playing chess, where I'm trying my best to capture the king in the least possible moves, I'm playing an immersive challenging adventure. I know you consider these 'quest' things as unnecessary 'grinding' but I don't consider the main storyline to be grinding. Going to the ID looking for loot is grinding, as there is no other goal besides getting stuff and xp.

[Soirana]

Not true, this is a quest. I know you consider these 'quest' things as unnecessary 'grinding' but I don't consider the main storyline to be grinding.

Saving puppy and killing raider lord is about as much main storyline as obtaining raw steel items. Essentially there is no main storyline except interacting with Khelly and old crone (okay, ultras essentially have storyline). People just ask you for help as you go through. (Kill the sheriff, Kill the Ice Queen, Kill the village druid... I don't see how these are less lawful than genociding Ogre tribe, which just happens to live nearly dwarves)

If you always force some things (and doing both puppy and Kranach is forcing)... well, my opinion is rather obvious.

[Kyreles]

It looked like teleportitis might be the issue that causes the next big separation in the community after Treasure Hunter (see my signature), but now I'm starting to think that Ratlings will do it instead. Someone will have to make a Ratling (Controversy) page on the wiki if this keeps up.

But seriously, everyone (including Soirana) should take Soirana's opinions in the context of a very very skilled player. I enjoy ratlings, but I think I prefer Hurthlings to them for pretty much any class. Perhaps you love detect item status. Don't let anyone tell you how to have fun. Figuring out how to have fun is part of the fun! (Also arguing on the forums)

[grobblewobble]

Best ADOM results are like 5k turns and a tad over 2h (not in the same run). So anything south of that could be called grind

Well to be fair, only a wizard could hope to achieve a 5k turn win before, and only with heavy rerolling and a lot of luck. I´m not sure that it can still be done at all after the changes to teleportation. Can it?

Totally agree that speedruns are more fun, though. Makes the game more interesting when you need to press on with a constant lack of resources. It forces you to find creative ways around all kinds of problems.

The nerf to background corruption was sad. Background corruption was a really cool mechanism, the way it acted like a slowly ticking time bomb. Now it's been nerfed to death.

[Blank4u47]

Saving puppy and killing raider lord is about as much main storyline as obtaining raw steel items. Essentially there is no main storyline except interacting with Khelly and old crone (okay, ultras essentially have storyline). People just ask you for help as you go through. (Kill the sheriff, Kill the Ice Queen, Kill the village druid... I don't see how these are less lawful than genociding Ogre tribe, which just happens to live nearly dwarves)

If you always force some things (and doing both puppy and Kranach is forcing)... well, my opinion is rather obvious.

Ok. I don't agree with that, but I get what you are saying and it's a solid argument.

So, onto a different topic, you've made me curious, so I guess I'll try a speed run for the first time ever, I'll even post it on yavp. Maybe I'll try it with a ratling, don't know how that'll go, but it's the only way that I can try to understand your points

[Dogbreath]

The nerf to background corruption was sad. Background corruption was a really cool mechanism, the way it acted like a slowly ticking time bomb. Now it's been nerfed to death.

I agree. In my latest runs I've noticed I almost completely lack the sense of danger or "oh shit, I got to get through here quickly" when I'm in highly corrupting areas or deep in the CoC. It used to be I had to plan out my runs into the CoC based on how much corruption removal I had, and could expect to get 3 or 4 corruptions in just a few levels if I spent too much time.

Now, in my last few wins, I just sort of stroll around at my leisure and end up with maaaybe 2 or 3 corruptions total by the time I hit D:50. I suppose if I went past the 90 day limit this might change a little, but honestly it's sort of ruined a lot of the "race against time" atmosphere the late game used to have.

[yhal003]

I love Detect Status. Sure, it is not as useful as Food Preservation or Find Weakness but it brings happiness by this wonderful colouring of the inventory. Happiness means calm and relaxing gameplay which is more important for success in adom than any in-game advantage. Alcohol helps too but it has side effects.

Background corruption has been reduced. Severely. (I think old behavior happens with like Appurtenance 1, but anything higher gives significant reduction, or something like that ).

With Ap 1 CK, I get first corruption in less than 10k turns, and the most corrupting area by that time is usually darkforge (sometimes ToEF but it is rare). Is that how background corruption worked in 1.1 game? Seems brutal.

Background corruption may be nerfed, but speedruns often result in getting close and personal with the wyrm and balors so there is still enough to worry about. The problem is not WMoPC death but rather the possibility of getting stiff muscles and the like. Without Khelly's gifts and mystic there is only one guaranteed scroll and this means two bad corruptions in a row may be the end. Weird tome and ice queen quests are too expensive in turns and bug temple is usually too dangerous to rely on corruption removal from there.

[Soirana]

With Ap 1 CK, I get first corruption in less than 10k turns, and the most corrupting area by that time is usually darkforge (sometimes ToEF but it is rare). Is that how background corruption worked in 1.1 game? Seems brutal.

Background corruption may be nerfed, but speedruns often result in getting close and personal with the wyrm and balors so there is still enough to worry about. The problem is not WMoPC death but rather the possibility of getting stiff muscles and the like. Without Khelly's gifts and mystic there is only one guaranteed scroll and this means two bad corruptions in a row may be the end. Weird tome and ice queen quests are too expensive in turns and bug temple is usually too dangerous to rely on corruption removal from there.

Yeah, if you killed bunch of stuff in DF you were getting at least one corruption in 1.1.1. Clearing gretaer vault on d40+ meant one or two extra.

IIRC, i was on ~6k pace when I decided to drop healing pots somewhere safe and got poison hands. I think it was not that bad game wise, but i never got into right mood to go on with controlled aggression.