IGB update

[Soirana]

So, it's only natural that people, which do play it, on a regular basis, came to know and love the game, have a right to know exactly how it's being changed

I gave you example of sucessful game (KoL) which essentially ignores players self-entitlement for in depth 'knowledge'.

Some games do it one way, some do the other. I fail to see something fundamental, why TB can't choose how this is handled in his game.

[SirTheta]

Nobody here has the "right" to anything about ADOM, and I'm mystified as to how anyone can realistically claim something like that? One of the reasons that ADOM is closed source is this exact type of attitude (specifically with respect to the "right" to the source!).

TB has made his position about code-diving extremely clear. He's also maintained for many years, including today, that ADOM being closed-source means there is a certain aspect of mystery to it—he doesn't want players to be able to plumb the sources of every new release for the precise new things that were added and exactly how they work. I had little problem with code-dived information when ADOM hadn't been developed for 10 years, and this is just my personal view on things, but it strikes me as rather gauche to directly ignore TB on his own forums when he & the dev team are actively developing things! (even when ADOM wasn't being actively developed, doing this kind of thing on the forums would've been out of the question)

Take what position on the matter you will, but the idea that TB has not been clear is bunk.

[Jack the Ripper]

Yes, that's where I'm going with this - if he persists with this pointless mysteriousness, there will be code-divers that will get that info the hard way.
As for me, I will fully support them.

It's not pointless if he has a reason for doing it. It's just something you don't agree with.

I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen another one of his vague comments after implementing some of his own ideas, only to be followed by lots of people asking for specifics.
Not to mention people's own RFEs which he introduced into the game in a somewhat changed form, without saying what exactly diverges from the proposed implementation.

RFEs aren't a divine right of the person proposing to change the game in exactly that way. They're a way to signal a problem, to help TB decide if and how to tackle an issue in the game. Why is it so extraordinarily important for you to understand exactly what has been changed? Sounds like a need for control

But as far as I know, he doesn't play ADOM. So, it's only natural that people, which do play it, on a regular basis, came to know and love the game, have a right to know exactly how it's being changed, personal preference of the creator for disclosing that info or not. If they don't get it from him, they will get it from code-divers, which gives them full legitimacy.

We play regularly, he has an overarching vision about the game and how he wants it to work. RFEs and replies to RFEs help him calibrate exactly what changes to make. Sounds like a fair "trade"

Bottom line, for me, is this: if you can't trust The Creator to manage and develop his own game, while integrating community ideas and preferences, despite his track record of having done this for years and years...that's kinda sad. And it doesn't really explain why you're choosing to play in the fist place :P

[JellySlayer]

I do think this approach is a bit problematic with beta testing by players. It's hard to exhaustively tests features if you don't know what they're supposed to do in the first place, and doubly so if they take place in the endgame where you have to invest a substantial amount of IRL time just to get there. There's definitely been bugs, some fairly major, that probably would not have been uncovered without code-diving.

I do like the added mystery of trying to figure things out from a player point of view, certainly, but it does run cross-purposes to the idea of the semi-open beta.

[Carter]

the bug with critical hit modifiers was found with code diving + the artifact pool being wrongly coded so certain artifacts couldn't spawn would be some decent examples.

[SirTheta]

A great many important bugs have been found, yes (mostly due to sorear's excellent work). And JellySlayer is certainly right that beta testing is made harder when testers don't know exactly how and what is supposed to happen.

Imo, that's a very different situation from the IGB. I have no animus towards Pavel and am glad to see a GB-esque source being updated, but I strongly disagree that TB has not prohibited code diving.

[Soirana]

I do think this approach is a bit problematic with beta testing by players. It's hard to exhaustively tests features if you don't know what they're supposed to do in the first place

Personally, I think more of problem is small pool of testers.

Between wiki and reports it looks like healers get their lv6 power at lv1, which is... since 1.1.1. Class powers are well documented in manual, nobody cared fro 10+years.

[Blasphemous]

RFEs aren't a divine right of the person proposing to change the game in exactly that way. They're a way to signal a problem, to help TB decide if and how to tackle an issue in the game. Why is it so extraordinarily important for you to understand exactly what has been changed? Sounds like a need for control

They aren't there to signal a problem, that's what bug reports are for. RFEs are suggestions from players and I believe that at least partially, a person that posts an RFE has the right to know how it was implemented in the game.

Bottom line, for me, is this: if you can't trust The Creator to manage and develop his own game, while integrating community ideas and preferences, despite his track record of having done this for years and years...that's kinda sad. And it doesn't really explain why you're choosing to play in the fist place :P

You misunderstood me. I do trust him in that, he does what he does and it's for free. I appreciate that.
The game's been around for so long and it still is and I enjoy playing it.
Doesn't mean I don't see room for improvement.

Integrating community ideas is nice and fine, without it I suspect the interest would have been half of what it is right now.
However, after witnessing a number of indie games and their development process, I can't understand why TB choses to withhold the specific, detailed information of his changes.
Maintaining "mystery" or "because he wants to" are not explanations.

It's not like we won't figure it out. It doesn't add mystery to the game in my opinion, because like I have mentioned earlier, that mystery is long gone.
You also fail to understand that creator's way of doing things is one side of the story, while playerbase is the second part.

I don't believe for a single second there would be any resurrection campaign or continuous updates, if not for people that still played the game ten years since the last release.
How long do you think an actor could perform on the stage without an audience?
If anything, implementing a transparent, detailed and exhaustive change log for everything added to the game would be a nod towards those people.
Seriously, ten years or more of play, you think any of the veterans care about secrets anymore? Not in the least, save perhaps for a few exceptions.
It's replayability and RNG unpredictability that make the game attractive after all this time.
It would also be a nice way to avoid having 'mystery' stand in the way of bug detection, which JellySlayer has already mentioned.

[IGB]

I strongly disagree that TB has not prohibited code diving.

There is nowhere mentioned code diving in the license, nowhere on the main site, and we only have single, indirect quote which is 12 years old. Moreover, the official website provides a link to HTML ADOM Manual, which is part of IGB. All of these contribute to my confidence, that TB's prohibition on code diving may be just a myth. Note that nobody here is trying to touch the source code - we all respect TB's decision on that subject - he has every right to never release ADOM source code.

About the mystery thing. Chapter 5 of the IGB summarizes it well. Rolf's quest, volcano, etc are mysteries and IMO they should not be revealed by code diving before they are explored by honest play. IMO that is what TB mentions as 'mysteriousness' in the license. However eg. exact workings of corruption traps, or simply all the stuff explained in chapters 0-4+appendices shall not be mysterious and code diving is appropriate there.

[Soirana]

There is nowhere mentioned code diving in the license, nowhere on the main site, and we only have single, indirect quote which is 12 years old. Moreover, the official website provides a link to HTML ADOM Manual, which is part of IGB. All of these contribute to my confidence, that TB's prohibition on code diving may be just a myth. Note that nobody here is trying to touch the source code - we all respect TB's decision on that subject - he has every right to never release ADOM source code.

About the mystery thing. Chapter 5 of the IGB summarizes it well. Rolf's quest, volcano, etc are mysteries and IMO they should not be revealed by code diving before they are explored by honest play. IMO that is what TB mentions as 'mysteriousness' in the license. However eg. exact workings of corruption traps, or simply all the stuff explained in chapters 0-4+appendices shall not be mysterious and code diving is appropriate there.

I wanted to wonder about limits of people lies, but remebered it's Pavel...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!se...0/2gpfZuQUvjYJ

for lazy ones:

And finally, I do believe people have right to know hidden game mechanics
even against the wishes of the Creator, the same way people have right to
know the principles of Life even against the wishes of the God ;-) Thanks
for listening!

Pavel Mencik on 4/11/06

What happened is since March 2006? Massive amnesia?