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Thread: Late Game Difficulty

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbreath View Post
    Fighters are a pure melee class, but they have shitty skills and, unlike other melee classes that get huge bonuses to damage output and/or DV as they level (see Assassin, Barbarian, Beastfighter, Monk, Duelist), their damage doesn't really scale well over time, either. There are weaker melee classes, like Thief, Merchant, or Farmer, but they generally get a bunch of interesting or useful skills and abilities to compensate. Also, rangers are pretty much just fighters but with much better skills and class powers, which makes fighters seem kind of redundant.

    Honestly, I love most of the classes in ADOM - to the point where I've had a Merchant UNE, an Assassin UNE, and a Farmer ULE and am trying to ascend a Hurthling Thief at some point - but the one class I've never spent much time playing is the fighter. Fighters just kind of suck, IMO.

    ---

    For the casino: the carrying capacity from the girdle of greed increases with the amount of gold carried.

    This conversation is a bit off topic but I couldn't resist as fighters are a favourite of mine.

    Very nice physical stats AND starting equipment add archery, find weakness and dodge to make a good chance of reaching HMW w/o healing with elves, humans, dwarves and orcs alike.

    DV/pv bonuses aren't huge but they help, and benefits from smithing/enchanting eq to make 2h use more viable.
    Vanquisher is a very strong weapon, (grod is good but the dv penalty on top of no shield is a shame).
    If you go big punch+shield you'll get monstrous defensive stats.

    Sure, no alertness or concentration but thats not a big issue.

  2. #22
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    Fighters are alright. Yeah, they are not the best, but they are decent (if slightly boring).
    Inbuilt Archery, Dodge, FW, Athletics. Plus more DV, PV and crits from class powers. Good St/To and starting equipment.
    These are not top of the line bonuses, but that's a head above merchants and thieves when it comes to combat.

    Edit: people pray on Assasins as combat class, but let's compare them to Fighters when it comes to pure fighting: +10% crit chance, +5 DV, Alchemy, but they don't have Athletics and 1/4 PV bonus. Overall Assasins are superior, but not by much.
    Last edited by AlterAsc; 09-17-2017 at 09:34 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlterAsc View Post
    Fighters are alright. Yeah, they are not the best, but they are decent (if slightly boring).
    Inbuilt Archery, Dodge, FW, Athletics. Plus more DV, PV and crits from class powers. Good St/To and starting equipment.
    These are not top of the line bonuses, but that's a head above merchants and thieves when it comes to combat.

    Edit: people pray on Assasins as combat class, but let's compare them to Fighters when it comes to pure fighting: +10% crit chance, +5 DV, Alchemy, but they don't have Athletics and 1/4 PV bonus. Overall Assasins are superior, but not by much.
    don't forget backstabbing which is huge in the late game when you have invis. Assassin backstab multipler is insane (like x6 or something)

    assassin's crowing gifts are also far superior, since they have access to serpent's bite, executor and kinslayer (all top notch weapons where you can wear a shield). Plus farslayer + cloak of oman aren't bad either.

    Fighter has vanquisher only for a good weapon, and protector/BoW as backup. Which means you are starved for damage a bit. The fighter's i've played have always struggled for damage.
    Wins:
    Gnome Assassin / Dwarven Paladin (ULE) / Ratling Duelist (UNE) / High Elf Archer / Gnomish Wizard x ~5 / Gray Elven Wizard (UCG) - Archmage / Gnomish Weaponsmith / Grey Elf Elementalist / Dwarven Priest / Trollish Barbarian / Drakling Farmer / Mist Elf Wizard / Human Beastfighter / Ratling Archer (UNE) / Gnomish Mindcrafter

    Classes Left
    Many!

  4. #24
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    If one needs good weapon, there's always AotME. Solves all damage problems. Since assasins get only 1/3 chance for good melee weapon (Serpent's bite is lacking in damage for late game), i often go there too anyway.
    Also Grod is not bad. Slaying powers are useful, more crits are useful, and damage is high anyway, since it's 2handed weapon. At least it's no worse than SB when it comes to rating weapons.

    Backstabbing is good for killing critters, and there are some cases where it's good for dangerous opponents too, but mostly not, as they usually notice you.

  5. #25
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    No they don't. Give my assassin UNE I linked earlier a read... I was one-hitting Ancient Dragons, Molochs and even a Balor with Serpents Bite. Almost nothing noticed me. As Carter said, the damage multipliers Assassins get mid to late game are just nuts. SB is easily one of the best weapons in the game - if you're an Assassin.

    (FWIW, Assassin class powers + FW + Backstabbing + Assassin bonuses for wielding daggers + SB's bonus for criticals was giving me a 10x multiplier for backstabbing ~90% of the time, and a 5x the remaining 10%. There were only a handful of monsters that took more than one hit to kill, and once I got the twin daggers I killed just about everything in one turn. (Fisty took 2 hits instead of 1))
    Last edited by Dogbreath; 09-18-2017 at 08:43 AM.

  6. #26
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    Ancient Dragons and normal molochs do not count as dangerous opponents for late game characters. I'm talking chaos archmage/ACW/AD/EM/you-get-the-idea, becase that's where danger is.
    SB has low damage. Having class backstab multiplier is not a property of the weapon. Otherwise you can backstab with a scalpel with 99 St and say that scalpel is a good weapon (when it's wielded by strong Assassin).

    And i played Assassins - it was my first character that passed ToEF and later died in D:48 (and i too have UNE). They are good, i'm not arguing that and i like them.
    I'm arguing that Fighters are not much worse and have their upsides - like Athletics and higher PV. And if that's not enough for people to count is good, it's still shitton better than what Merchants have. Grouping fighters with them is nonsensical.
    Last edited by AlterAsc; 09-18-2017 at 08:58 AM.

  7. #27
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    I also 1-hit the ACW with Serpents Bite in that run. (I had switched over to the twin daggers for the rest)

    Anyway, you seem to be fundamentally missing the point from several different angles here. The claim wasn't "SB is a intrinsically high damage weapon", it was "SB is one of the best weapons in the game - for assassins". Claiming its damage output is too low for the late game in response to that is completely ridiculous. As is your claim that most monsters "usually notice you" before invisible backstabs if you're playing an Assassin. Anyone who has actually played the late game with an assassin knows the exact opposite is true.

    Likewise, the only reason way in which Merchants were grouped with Fighters was when I listed all of the melee oriented classes - with merchants being in the subclass that is weaker (though IMO, more interesting) than fighters. That's not "nonsensical", that's entirely logical.

    But more than that, you're missing the big picture, too. The point wasn't "fighters are the weakest class in the game", it was "fighters suck because they're the most boring class in the game, and don't have anything unique or interesting or badass about them compared to other classes." They also scale pretty poorly at higher levels when compared to others. Seriously, they're the most mediocre class out there - they aren't even weak in interesting or challenging ways. If you like fighters that's completely fine, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but saying things like "if you need a good weapon there's always the AotME" is what I'm talking about. Saying fighters can get the same guaranteed weapon every other class can is hardly a ringing endorsement.
    Last edited by Dogbreath; 09-18-2017 at 02:05 PM.

  8. #28
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    I killed all guardians after wall of flames with non-affixed eternium 1handed sword on my first run when i reached them. What now - 'basic eternium 1handed sword is a very good weapon if you're Assassin' ? No it's not. It still sucks, even if it works.

    I'm not gonna argue with you on backstabbing since you managed not to read what i wrote, then still didn't read when i clarified again. Might as well don't bother to do that again.

    By the way fighters have damage output about the same as monks(Fighters have more crits, monks more speed). I guess monks scale pretty poorly too, right? And having more PV than any other class (aside from CK and dedicated weaponsmith) is useless in late game too. Goddamn, now i know that when i won by relying on PV i was doing impossible things.

    You're also missing the picture about AotME. If Assassin doesn't get Executor or Kinslayer, his man weapon is meh. Same with Fighter with no Vanq or Grod. Which is not a big deal - get AotME. And yes, any other class can get AotME too if they wish too. It's not my problem that in terms of damage it is better than any other weapon, aside from twins and ToTRR which are available very very late.

    Your grouping classes into two categories is nonsensical, because inside one category there are wildly different power levels. Might as well use your logic to split all classes into 'Wizard' and 'Else'. All of those 'Else' classes are weaker, no need to compare them between each other, they are weaker than Wizard, that makes them about the same.

    Edit: also funny that you mentioned ranger which has exactly zero bonuses to combat. If only late-game two handed combat didn't revolve around two daggers. And you somehow called him better than fighter. Or i suppose in your worldview rangers don't scale over time at all?

    It's fine to consider fighters boring class. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. However as melee fighters they do not suck. And if to expand your list of good melee classes by two slots, one is for CK (who should be on the list anyway, but whatever). Second will go to Fighters, because he's noticebly better than anybody else. That's it.
    Last edited by AlterAsc; 09-18-2017 at 05:50 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlterAsc View Post
    What now - 'basic eternium 1handed sword is a very good weapon? No it's not. It still sucks, even if it works.

    Goddamn, now i know that when i won by relying on PV i was doing impossible things.

    You're also missing the picture about AotME.

    Edit: also funny that you mentioned ranger which has exactly zero bonuses to combat.

    Second will go to Fighters, because he's noticebly better than anybody else. That's it.
    Fuel time....

    Definition of non-sucky weapon is that it works For example, I mostly consider swords of sharpness sucky weapon, but if nothing else they do just fine. Of course, in normal game practical player should take Big Punch over non-ego eternium (and over SoS too). From practical point of view between BP and cowaxe you are so well covered for weapons that any (pre)crown ending in melee weapon should be considered waste.

    My AotME picture is that it is pain in ass to get and after getting few times it is also boring to use.

    Ranger has 7LB boots power which makes them good for melee kiting.

    IIRC, in manual any non-caster class is considered melee. How dare you put sucky fighters above mindcrafters? You know they have whole mindcraft thing over that bash with weapon attitude.
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

  10. #30
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    Back to the fighter thing - most melee classes have a specialty (something they are really good at) --
    assassins in theory poison, in practise alchemy fireballs (well, backstabbing too)
    barbs - tremendous hits in theory, HP in practise
    crafters -- well, mindcraft
    healers - recovery rate
    merchants - in theory shops, in practice coin throwing (maybe alchemy for potion ones)

    and so on...
    The thing is fighters are not even best at their dull specialisation. (CK are better early on, monks can outwrite them and smiths outsmith).
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

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