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Thread: Late Game Difficulty

  1. #31
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    Fighters get dodge and use it a bit better than most. Fighters wear armor and they wear it a bit better than most. They get FW and they crit a bit more than most. They are also a bit more proficient in shooting things than most of the other classes.
    They do not have a strict specialization. Like base DnD fighter class - they are supposed to be decent all-rounder combat oriented class. And they...are. Call them dull all you want, they are still good at what they do.

    And really - why do people bitch about Fighters specifically?
    Look at rangers - what are they good at? Lots of skills, only one good class power. That's it? That's their specialization? And don't tell me about their TWF bonuses - they are largely irrelevant. Although people who used them to dual-wield BP and Sceptre of Chaos can raise their hands, i'll applaud them for using unique class feature.
    Or healers, right. More recovery, later more hp. Now those are clearly game defining powers. Oh, wait, not really, it's on the same level of uniqueness as more DV/PV/crits that fighters get. Yet Barbs have samish HP and Priests are more adept at healing yourself and others.
    Last edited by AlterAsc; 09-18-2017 at 10:34 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlterAsc View Post

    And really - why do people bitch about Fighters specifically?

    Look at rangers - what are they good at?
    Cause they are useless? I do have one win with HE fighter and it is my only win with HE and my only with fighter.

    From my PoV (might be rather specific) if I want easy non-caster game I select something like orc barb (or hobit assasin or duelist). I want to dual wield (for whatever my wicked reasons are) I opt for ranger. I want to be somewhat challenged I go thief/merchant. Spec is not for easy game, it is mostly for class identity and fighters have zero -- for me that is zero reason to play them.

    p.s. in 1.1.1 healers were pseudocaster class - they had enormous affinity for spellbooks (iirc, human healer could learn fireball at level one - if he could get the book), they have been nerfed with the updates.
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlterAsc View Post
    Your grouping classes into two categories is nonsensical.
    Dude, I'm literally just talking about the "melee" and "caster" groups from the game. It's not nonsensical to talk about a game using parameters defined in that game.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soirana View Post
    I want to dual wield (for whatever my wicked reasons are) I opt for ranger.
    Because that's what manual says for you to do it? Or because for first 31 level of your character - which is majority of the game - your only difference to any other character with TWF would be non-existence of -6 to-hit penalty. And bonuses you gain from TWF bonuses you gain at 32 and 50 are largely irrelevant. All hail master of TWF combat, The amount of class flavor is unstoppable.
    Face it - rangers are absolutely the same, with the only thing different to them is name and class description. Because in practice Assassins, Fighters, Monks make better TWF fighters due to their various bonuses. I suppose i should call Rangers useless since they can't even outperform everybody else in their chosen specialization.
    Hell, even CK will outperform Ranger, even though TWF for them is a bit silly choice. And Lawful Palading against Chaotic monsters.
    Last edited by AlterAsc; 09-19-2017 at 07:03 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlterAsc View Post
    Because that's what manual says for you to do it? Or because for first 31 level of your character - which is majority of the game - your only difference to any other character with TWF would be non-existence of -6 to-hit penalty.
    Cause if i want to dual-wield I want to do it whole game. So i want to start with two weapons and in early levels +6 to hit matters. I mean I truly do not want to miss while dual-wielding and true berserking or something like that. And all the fluffy flavor.

    Movement discount helps somewhat too -- step slash/slash,, step, but by the time it comes dancing like that is rarity. On other hand with pot scumming and smithing nearly anyone can do anything by midgame to some extent (well, crafters don't get to read books and stuff like that)

    However ranger class powers are rather horrible, true.
    Last edited by Soirana; 09-19-2017 at 06:43 PM.
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

  6. #36
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    @AlterAsc

    There are a lot of other perks to playing a ranger, too. Aside from the 750 base cost for movement class power:

    They start with Alertness, which greatly increases their chances of survival, especially against magic users and traps in the early game. But this is also useful for the most of the nastiest fights in the later game, too. ACW, King and Emperor Liches, Keriax, CA, etc.

    They start with Healing. Again, greatly increases chance of survival. Especially if you want to dive the UD first. Tactically speaking, one of the biggest reasons I love Rangers is because when I play I usually skip the Terinyo area entirely in the beginning and go straight to the CoC after reaching the HMV. Since rangers have all the skills granted by those quests already, I don't have to balance not getting healing or herbalism with wanting to play the way I do.

    They start with Herbalism. Once again, this skill is pretty great for the early game when it can net you a couple dozen blessed Spensweed and Stomafilla from (nearly guaranteed) herbs in the UD. Sure you can compensate for not having it later on with a blessed scroll of uncursing, but it can really make the game better before you have one and a source of holy water.

    They start with Food Preservation, which is a great skill. Over the span of the game this means you're a lot more likely to find useful corpses, both for valuable intrinsics and stat increases. Again, this makes a pretty noticable differences.

    All of these give rangers a pretty significant edge. Or, at the very least, make them different enough that my play style for a ranger is significantly different than it is for a fighter. You *could* play them the same if you wanted to, or find the advantages they provide are unimportant to how you play the game, but that doesn't mean that they are "absolutely the same" or are not, in fact, pretty intrinsically different classes or other people don't appreciate and take advantage of those differences.

    edit: cross posted with Soirana.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soirana View Post
    Cause if i want to dual-wield I want to do it whole game. So i want to start with two weapons and in early levels +6 to hit matters. I mean I truly do not want to miss while dual-wielding and true berserking or something like that. And all the fluffy flavor.

    Movement discount helps somewhat too -- step slash/slash,, step, but by the time it comes dancing like that is rarity. On other hand with pot scumming and smithing nearly anyone can do anything by midgame to some extent (well, crafters don't get to read books and stuff like that)

    However ranger class powers are rather horrible, true.
    +6 to-hit bonus is laughable after lvl 5 for any semi-decent fighting class. Or right at level 1 for some of the stronger ones.
    All those classes that i mentioned earlier get more crits, more DV, more speed. All of which makes them better than rangers at TWF.
    I'll be sticking with that point right until the end - Rangers suck at their own on-paper-specialization. And there's no need to scum at all. Just by virtue of having class powers, other classes become better than rangers at TWF.
    That is - the only place where Rangers are TWF masters are in the manual.

    @Dogbreath
    Rangers start with this, they start with that...
    They also start without FW. Without slaying weapon(or other crit bonuses) FW can be roughly statistically transalted into +15-20% more melee damage. For the duration of whole game. The most valuable combat skill.
    If you gonna say - just start with Orc or DE, i'm gonna say the same about Alertness or Food Preservation - just start with drakelings and be done with it.

    750 base cost comes at lvl40. At lvl40 i've already killed all of the guardians, the only thing left for me to side-step is probably EM if i'm going for ultra or maybe balors on D:50. Most of the game happens before you're level 40. Most of the time where you need help from somewhere happens way before lvl 40. At lvl40 characters have already passed a lot of challenges and got themselves well equipped to deal with future ones.

    You *could* play them the same if you wanted to, or find the advantages they provide are unimportant to how you play the game, but that doesn't mean that they are "absolutely the same" or are not, in fact, pretty intrinsically different classes or other people don't appreciate and take advantage of those differences.
    Let me rudely rephrase it: blah blah blah blah
    You can change 'rangers' with any other class. For example:
    Oh, you could play fighters the same if you wanted to, or find great advantage in this 7% PV bonus, but that doesn't mean they are "absolutely the same", they are intrinsically different blah blah blah you just don't appreciate them and take advantage of them.

    If anything else, having more skills, one silly practical bonus to their on-paper-specialization and one useful class power (which is useful but not unique at all and comes super late) makes rangers an absolute zero specialization class.
    What is their specialty? 'I have more skills than average Joe making me a bit better than average'?

    And yet, you people scoff at Fighter's bonuses which are the same but at least those are thematically focused - they are bit better in one chosen field.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlterAsc View Post
    Let me rudely rephrase it: blah blah blah blah
    Oh get off it already. Everyone in this conversation has been polite and gracious with you, and you've repeatedly responded by being a condescending little prick. That's completely uncalled for.

  9. #39
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    Why don't you just admit that you wasted some words to say nothing of value? I didn't stop at rephrasing, i went and explained exactly why what you said is meaningless and can be used for everything ever happened.

    I'm getting tired about listening that 'Fighters get boring powers', yet i hear 'Look at it having 4 skills, it is such an amazing game-changing experience...'. Right, 4 skill nobody ever had! Except all of the other classes that have them too. Maybe not all together, but still.

    If you want to stick with rhetoric 'Fighters are boring because they have nothing unique or interesting', then it applies to Rangers twofold. The only 'fluffy flavor' they have is left in the description. Hell, we could've had them renamed to something like 'Adventurer' and have a description of 'those guys tried a lot of things, alas they never got good at anything, only proficient at some things'. And that description would be very close to what we have.
    Last edited by AlterAsc; 09-19-2017 at 08:56 PM.

  10. #40
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    Going to jump into this conversation.

    I'd agree that fighter is a bit bland, but you could say that for a lot of classes. There are few that have a unique, defining feature that really sets them apart. And about half the class powers in this game are in dire need of an overhaul as they are weak, redundant, or completely useless.

    But, having said that, I've had a lot of fun runs with Ranger and am currently playing one. They get off to fast starts with Archery, a ranged weapon & ammo (yet can melee better than archers), and a great combination of starting skills. Athletics to get some stat gains and a very helpful boost to speed. The aforementioned Alertness, Dodge, Healing, Herbalism, Swimming and Food Preservation give a big advantage especially in the early game. Even survival can be helpful as you hunt down Kranach or make your first trek to the CoC. It's all what you'd expect a fantasy/D&D ranger type character to have. A druid-fighter hybrid with a mastery of nature.

    Depending on the weapon drops or what shields you find (or don't find) twc can be fun and effective despite it's drawbacks. Also later on once you gain quality equipment and or smithing with high DV/PV the lack of a shield is much less painful. And that's when weapon options really start opening up too, leading to some interesting combinations.

    Would I like rangers to be more... ranger-y? Of course. And I think that would be a more fruitful discussion than the current one. In other games they get to choose specific type monster slaying specialties (like +3 to hit and damage canines or reptiles) or limited use of nature themed spells. A bonus to fighting in the wilderness due to their experience and training. Maybe even a limited ability to tame or calm certain animals, or just a higher chance to do so when giving lions tigers & wildcats some rat corpses & fish pieces & raw meat. I'm sure the forum goers here can come up with myriad ideas for making rangers more rangerish.

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