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Thread: Late Game Difficulty

  1. #1
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    Default Late Game Difficulty

    Does anyone think that the late game (R60) is a little... too challenging? I'm not sure - I get it, ADOM is an incredibly difficult game to balance. Between the learners and the experts there is just a vast gulf. I'd put myself in the middle having beaten the game with all the races and all but one classes. I find it very hard to believe that anyone new to the game could actually beat it without the experience I have - looking at the YAVP proves me wrong but dang. I've beaten R60 before but it seemed like every other floor past D30 had a monster that I practically *had* to teleport away from.

    Example: A surge of power on D30 had a named werewolf king who accidentally bumped into my invisible character (with a pretty high PV at 50) for a mere 250 damage out of my 350 hp pool - which is fine, I guess. It was a late-game artifact guardian after all. A few floors down I ran into two Dorn Beasts and a Gorgon from a random crumbling mixed room. I knew to run. Another few floors down there was a quickling queen who I had to actually use my wand of teleportation (as opposed to relying on teleportis) since I didn't have charges on other offensive wands. It just seems between the special monsters and the ultra-powered brawlers on those deep floors, they are more deadly than the monsters in the Orb temples. And I don't think those should be harder - I think those have been balanced to a healthy place of difficult but not insane. When they were rare it was "boring" I guess but at the same time reasonable. [This is the TL;DR] Some runs would be super challenging when you ran into a few of these guys. Now these mega-monsters are just commonplace. Too commonplace?

    This character is tough - I ran this character through the ToF the old fashioned way of dropping all my stuff and praying for pickaxe at the top since I had neither Rings of Ice nor Fireproof blankets. But he (and others I've run) cant stand up at all to any bruiser style monster to pops out of any given mixed room in the late game.

    Maybe I'm just too used to older versions where the late game was much more forgiving and I could get away with the melee heavy play-style I favor. Perhaps the era of my lazy speedy-ish runs just don't fly anymore...
    Completed: All Races, All Classes. Twice.
    Fastest Run: Dwarf Mindcrafter - 34803 turns. No wand of tele.
    Challenge Games: C- CK (stupid ending), Platinum Girdle x10, Westside Story, Team Teleport - illiterate troll barb, Scroll of Omnipotence obtained
    ULE - DE Archer

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrnyx View Post
    Does anyone think that the late game (R60) is a little... too challenging? I'm not sure - I get it, ADOM is an incredibly difficult game to balance. Between the learners and the experts there is just a vast gulf. I'd put myself in the middle having beaten the game with all the races and all but one classes. I find it very hard to believe that anyone new to the game could actually beat it without the experience I have - looking at the YAVP proves me wrong but dang. I've beaten R60 before but it seemed like every other floor past D30 had a monster that I practically *had* to teleport away from.

    Example: A surge of power on D30 had a named werewolf king who accidentally bumped into my invisible character (with a pretty high PV at 50) for a mere 250 damage out of my 350 hp pool - which is fine, I guess. It was a late-game artifact guardian after all. A few floors down I ran into two Dorn Beasts and a Gorgon from a random crumbling mixed room. I knew to run. Another few floors down there was a quickling queen who I had to actually use my wand of teleportation (as opposed to relying on teleportis) since I didn't have charges on other offensive wands. It just seems between the special monsters and the ultra-powered brawlers on those deep floors, they are more deadly than the monsters in the Orb temples. And I don't think those should be harder - I think those have been balanced to a healthy place of difficult but not insane. When they were rare it was "boring" I guess but at the same time reasonable. [This is the TL;DR] Some runs would be super challenging when you ran into a few of these guys. Now these mega-monsters are just commonplace. Too commonplace?

    This character is tough - I ran this character through the ToF the old fashioned way of dropping all my stuff and praying for pickaxe at the top since I had neither Rings of Ice nor Fireproof blankets. But he (and others I've run) cant stand up at all to any bruiser style monster to pops out of any given mixed room in the late game.

    Maybe I'm just too used to older versions where the late game was much more forgiving and I could get away with the melee heavy play-style I favor. Perhaps the era of my lazy speedy-ish runs just don't fly anymore...
    There are some nasty effects that can be problematic but I think most consider it somewhat easy after Tower of Eternal Flames have been dealth with.

    Some like the challenge of doing late game as fast as possible and then it's another can of beans.
    But a beefed up character while not spam attacking all over the place rarely struggles.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrnyx View Post

    Example: A surge of power on D30 had a named werewolf king

    for a mere 250 damage out of my 350 hp pool

    A few floors down I ran into two Dorn Beasts and a Gorgon from a random crumbling mixed room. I knew to run.

    Another few floors down there was a quickling queen who I had to actually use my wand of teleportation (as opposed to relying on teleportis) since I didn't have charges on other offensive wands.
    Most people view late game as rather boring.... unless you pose extra challenges through your determination to beat ADOM in specific way.

    Back to quoted stuff:

    350hp is a bit low, unless you are a caster. 400+ is something to aim for post Casino.

    Being post Casino, how you can have no extra offense? If anything you can resurface and milk beggars for booze, or use elemental gauntlets +fire orb. One quickling queen should not be a problem at this point.

    Gorgon might be aproblem if you have not got anything with petrification resist, rather unlikely after Casino. Dorn beasts can be shot, bashed in darkness or actually use some -para (which is good thing to use constantly in late game)

    Wereking... I guess artifact guardian being a challenge is okayish.
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

  4. #4
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    I mean my character is only level 24 and has 27ish toughness. However, I feel like I've done everything that I need to do so I tend to dive really quickly which I guess is just poor play style nowadays. I just hate grinding for items. I never milked beggars, I never did unnecessary quests, I never... etc. And I feel as though right now the grind is either too tedious or too dangerous. Probably a bad quality in a game like adom. I feel like the ice queen domain has really taken on the early-mid game pretty well without feeling like I have to grind so hopefully the volcano can do similar things in the mid-mid/late game.

    I dont grind for items so I'm often short something without para or petra resist as I am in this game. Also never use and constantly forget about elemental gauntlets + fire orb so that's just on me. I have played versions where the corruption is high so I always avoided it. Hard to change old habits I guess is what it comes down to. I just dont fit as well into the current iteration of the game as well as I did when I was really grinding out games (R5) and built up my habits.
    Completed: All Races, All Classes. Twice.
    Fastest Run: Dwarf Mindcrafter - 34803 turns. No wand of tele.
    Challenge Games: C- CK (stupid ending), Platinum Girdle x10, Westside Story, Team Teleport - illiterate troll barb, Scroll of Omnipotence obtained
    ULE - DE Archer

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrnyx View Post
    I just hate grinding for items. I never milked beggars, I never did unnecessary quests, I never... etc. And I feel as though right now the grind is either too tedious or too dangerous.
    Beggars are dangerous o_O?

    Robbing Casino is not grindy activity providing tons of items.
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

  6. #6
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    Beggars would fall under the other category: tedious.

    Robbing the casino always struck me as unnecessarily dangerous. I've only done it on a chaos knight with the OP missile thunderbolt. I tend to play pretty goody goody characters because I'm lazy. And don't like risking my L+ or N= status out going to an alter afterward. I think if I get to D50 on this character I might get the platinum girdle again but this time on accident.
    Completed: All Races, All Classes. Twice.
    Fastest Run: Dwarf Mindcrafter - 34803 turns. No wand of tele.
    Challenge Games: C- CK (stupid ending), Platinum Girdle x10, Westside Story, Team Teleport - illiterate troll barb, Scroll of Omnipotence obtained
    ULE - DE Archer

  7. #7
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    Can gamble instead, unless that's considered "too tedious". Costs maybe one corruption to get everything you would want.

    Dorn beasts and gorgons aren't actually very high DL, so I'm not sure they're more common in the lower CoC now relative to 1.1.1. Anyway, if you're not scumming, the inclusion of a greater vault in FJGC means you're usually more prepared for the final dive than you would be in 1.1.1. Versions after r64 include the tome of donors, which makes things even easier (something like 40% chance to have paralysis resistance by late game + other bonuses).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrnyx View Post
    Does anyone think that the late game (R60) is a little... too challenging?


    Example:
    - hate grinding for items. I never milked beggars, I never did unnecessary quests, I never... etc.
    -too dangerous. I dont grind for items so I'm often short something without para or petra resist
    -Robbing the casino always struck me as unnecessarily dangerous.
    -Also never use and constantly forget about elemental gauntlets + fire orb
    -I tend to play pretty goody goody characters . And don't like risking my L+ I might get the platinum girdle again but this time on accident.
    Well, for one I don't think game being either tedious or dangerous is a bad thing. Especially if it does not force the action either way.

    Platinum girdle is supposed to be challenging me thinks. Not something what could happen regularly on accident.

    Well, if you prefer to push, refuse to take major restock in mid-game and have extra-restrictions (goody-goody bash-only) game might be quite challenging, yes. The real question - why it should not be that way?
    So far rolled 15 casters with RoDS and shamelessly killed them within 200 turns. For eternium glory!
    (after 15 I stopped counting...)

  9. #9

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    I'm just going ahead and be a total dick about it: late game is not challenging nor difficult.
    Sometimes I wish I would have a smaller dick.

  10. #10
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    Relevant RFE aiming to adjust late game monster generation: http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2950

    Looks like it hasn't been implemented yet (hasn't been marked as such), although several related RFEs have been.
    You hit Andor Drakon, the ElDeR cHaOs GoD, and severely wound him.
    The greater balor summons some help!
    The ratling duelist disarms you. You drop your blessed Trident of the Red Rooster (+36, 6d12+18) [+12, +12]. It flies to the west.
    Andor Drakon, the ElDeR cHaOs GoD, picks up the blessed Trident of the Red Rooster (+36, 6d12+18) [+12, +12].
    Andor Drakon, the ElDeR cHaOs GoD, wields the blessed Trident of the Red Rooster (+36, 6d12+18) [+12, +12].

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