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Thread: Ultra Paragon - possible?

  1. #1
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    Default Ultra Paragon - possible?

    I've got a few ultras under my belt and was thinking about trying this out as a challenge game. From what I read on the wiki completing Gaab'Baay's final quest to get the Amulet is a chaotic act, which would make getting and equipping the girdle impossible. A few questions:

    1. Does performing chaotic acts disqualify this, or simply moving your alignment towards C? The reason I ask is that Chaos Knights start the game at -10000, which is already the lowest you can be.
    2. Relating to the above, finishing GB's final quest drops alignment by -1000 from what I see... I wonder if it is technically possible to remain at -10000 alignment before finishing this quest. This would be extremely difficult as if would mean not saving Khelly and finding 6 artifacts to feed the ratling relatively early in the game. I would imagine this would be Phial, Crown of Science, Mummy wrap, Ankh + 2 more (possibly AoME). RoHK you would need to get past EG without killing/attacking it so that's a no go.

    Not killing lawful creatures would be a given, but I wonder if chaotic acts can be worked around if your alignment isn't technically dropping. Maybe you would still be able to kill lawfuls as your alignment isn't going to drop any more, but that isn't something I'd want to test

    I know it's possible to get the girdle and then complete GB's quest, but then you're not really a paragon of order - you just have a belt you can't use.

    I suppose I can try this in exploration mode by wishing myself incredible gear to plow through everything, but was wondering if someone knew the mechanics before I attempt this.
    Last edited by Booster; 06-20-2016 at 09:22 AM.

  2. #2
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    I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that it was changed to only checking if you killed any Lawful creatures, as otherwise it would be to much of a luck-check
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that it was changed to only checking if you killed any Lawful creatures, as otherwise it would be to much of a luck-check
    Requirements for Paragon (after the change) are that you can't kill any lawful creatures, and you can't do any chaotic acts. The problem here is with the latter requirement, since finishing Gaab'Baay's final quest is a chaotic act and there is no way around it.

    As for the original question, I doubt that would work. Even if it does, you would have to be really careful not to do anything to raise your alignment before finishing all of GB's quests. Being a chaos knight helps because they get only 1/10 of alignment gains compared to other classes, so killing minor chaotic creatures doesn't seem to increase their alignment at all. I'm not sure how alignment works exactly, but if stronger monsters give more alignment gains, that might be a problem.

  4. #4
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    I read an account of this done way back in the day by creating a wish engine, and dragging GB down to D:48. The player then popped down to D:50 to spawn to the Girdle, and went back to D:48 to hand in the final ingredient for the Amulet. Of course, that meant losing the Paragon status but the belt was acquired before completing the final quest.

    I may end up having to waste a few good hours on an exploration game to see if this is doable and then play a real game...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booster View Post
    I would imagine this would be Phial, Crown of Science, Mummy wrap, Ankh + 2 more (possibly AoME). RoHK you would need to get past EG without killing/attacking it so that's a no go.
    There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

    I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnothing View Post
    There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

    I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.
    Trident would be out either way, as rescuing Blurp would increase your alignment past the -10000. The only way I think it could possibly work is if you would remain at -10000 before handing in the final quest for GB

    Another item I thought about - does Filk always spawn friendly/neutral? Awhile back I remember dropping from NC to CN because I attacked him. If I kill him with a trap will that count or do I need to get the kill? I imagine a sqeaking board trap would suffice for that.
    Last edited by Booster; 06-20-2016 at 02:19 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnothing View Post
    There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

    I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.
    Definition of chaotic act program wise seems to be "alignment drop have happened"...

    I think most notable case is druid quest. It draws char towards N= and completing it as L, is actually chaotic act.

    RE Filk: You can read scroll of monster aggravation to turn monster hostile...
    Last edited by Soirana; 06-20-2016 at 02:23 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetnothing View Post
    There's a guaranteed trident, you could try, good luck.

    I don't think it would work though. The condition is that no chaotic acts performed, it doesn't say "no alignment drops have happened". So you should expect it is programmed in this sane way.
    How it is programmed internally is highly debatable.
    Completing the druid quest while lawful will move your alignment towards chaotic and it breaks the Paragon code.

    Consider the following implementation - there is a single routine ChangeAlignment that checks the current alignment, applies the required change and computes the resulting alignment. It might then calculate (newAlignment - oldAlignment) and break the Paragon condition if this expression is negative. This will allow you to automatically cover all situations (such as the druid quest while lawful which has specific internal logic). It seems reasonably sane to me.

    With this implementation and being a CK having -10000 alignment at all times might actually allow you to never commit a chaotic act. But probably not because you have to save Khelly. Unless you level to 50 before doing so and even then it will probably be enough to account for several dozen stones.

    EDIT: or you can satisfy the witch before saving Khelly. We won't know unless someone tries.

    EDIT2: Also, Soirana, do you read my mind at all times or something?
    Last edited by _Ln_; 06-20-2016 at 02:24 PM.
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  9. #9
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    That is precisely what I want to try:

    1. Don't kill any lawfuls + don't commit any lawful acts until completing GaabBaay's quest. I think this may be doable as a CK since any lawful act is 1/10th value - the only issues is if you kill a major dragon/daemon which does increase your alignment. I wonder if killing steel golems would also cause this to shift - leaving DF out of the equation will make getting 6 artifacts very difficult
    2. Once you complete GB's quest, start moving towards L+. At this point you can save Khelly, and crown L+.

    Could be interesting ...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Ln_ View Post
    How it is programmed internally is highly debatable.
    Completing the druid quest while lawful will move your alignment towards chaotic and it breaks the Paragon code.

    Consider the following implementation - there is a single routine ChangeAlignment that checks the current alignment, applies the required change and computes the resulting alignment. It might then calculate (newAlignment - oldAlignment) and break the Paragon condition if this expression is negative. This will allow you to automatically cover all situations (such as the druid quest while lawful which has specific internal logic). It seems reasonably sane to me.
    Indeed... But I don't want to change my bet! Let's imagine it compares (newAlignment - oldAlignment) before cutting it to -10000 It's actually more likely that this difference is passed directly to ChangeAlignment as an argument.

    Trident would be out either way, as rescuing Blurp would increase your alignment past the -10000.
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