The 'treasure hunter' talent sucks.

[Molach]

I'll throw out my opinions as well, looks like the Gut is all alone here.

The TH talent is a matter of convenience, not life-or-death.
Some other talents are life-and-death for semi-weak characters.
The prereqs for TH are useless 99% of the time (apart from missile weapon mastery, I guess)

I'll agree that "The 'treasure hunter' is unneeded", not that it sucks.

[Silfir]

Killing monsters at all is gambling, if you so will - I mean, the XP gain is fixed, but getting items is a game of chance. Treasure Hunter just improves the odds. Is that improvement worth three talents, considering that the other effects are largely useless? For me, it is, because I kill monsters to get the items I want. I don't WANT to restrict myself to guaranteed items or artifacts, even though it is possible to do so, or resort to scumming tactics.

[gut]

Lich:
> archer had to wish for an amulet of light in the Mana Temple, and
> then there's my character who had to wish for wands of door creation

It's hard to believe that no wands of door creation were generated in
a whole ADOM game. Call me a skeptic, but I think that's just too
improbable. As for no amulet of light before the Mana Temple, I don't
believe that either. I will not mention non-wish (and guaranteed)
related ways of generating those items, because it bothers Silfir : )

I would say it is possible, that the players made a mistake at some
point, and got their equipment roasted. In such a case, TH wouldn't
have helped in the slightest. Four wands of door creation can be
melted as easily as one.

> complain about having too many potions of booze, holy water, or
> scrolls of identify

Do you see?! It is this notion, that 'items are hard to come by', that
causes me to constantly refer to other (scummy) methods of generating
items. My dear Lich, all the items you shall ever desire, are right
before you. You need no talent to provide them. If you need them, *get*
them, in the most effective way possible. If you don't, then don't bother
with them, talent-wise or other-wise.

Moloch
> I'll agree that "The 'treasure hunter' is unneeded", not that it sucks

But I'm trying to prove that it sucks : )

Silfir:
> Is that improvement worth three talents, considering that the other
> effects are largely useless?

If your skills are such, that you consider an extra starting +9 speed,
or 'immune to pain' useless, then yes.

> I don't WANT to restrict myself to guaranteed items

You keep saying 'I'. The TH talent may be more useful to you than most.
I say repeatedly that if one is uber-skilled, and hates scumming, then
TH is a feature of convenience. That doesn't keep the talent from
sucking though, as there are few players in that catagory. I honestly
put it in the same catagory as 'strong legs'.

Let me approach this from a different angle. Go to the HoF, and choose
a random (winner's) flg. Scroll down to the equipment list, not the worn
items, but the 'stuff'. I put forth the idea that 95% of this is junk.
The game could have been completed *just* as easily, without all of these
(sometimes) 10,000's of stones of junk. That's what I'm thinking when
I'm saying 'unneeded items', that you won't notice much difference at
any point in the game, if you don't have all that useless stuff.

If the junk was needed, it wouldn't have been there, it would have been
used. The fact that it is left over, rather proves it's uselessness.
Some items like -death amulets are understandable, because they are
sometimes needed (and here is where I won't mention *other* ways of
getting those specific benefits). Most of the stuff is worthless, and
just serves to weigh one down. I think 'more items' does not = great, or
even good, over 90% of the time it just = more bloat.

Of course, one never knows what is needed, and what isn't, but 'being
prepared' doesn't account for (almost) universal inventory bloat. I
have noticed in our shared games, having to constantly drop heaps of
worthless items (heap of 2 grizzly bear corpses!). Getting more items
is just redundancy most of the time, and when it's not, the gains are
mostly marginal. If you hit the AoLS grand prize, then congrats.

[Elone]

Meow. Men...

[meh]

While TH does help in getting rare items, I think it's main use is creating more of the items that you want to have many of. The extra stat increasing potions alone make it worthwhile IMO. Then there are potions of water, scrolls of defense and protection and slaying missiles just to name a few.

[Soirana]

in past i posted arguments both pro and contra TH.

In general TH is better early on. If i understand right killing 100 rats will give you 10-15 extra items. Killing 100 blue dragons give you nothing.

Overall TH:
early on you need 200-300 kills with TH to feel real difference. if you kill 300 mobs you rolling anyway. on other hand with conservative tactics i can reach with any race class combo (and as bit of luck).

ToEF: honestly i do not need any talents to go through. Extra wand of stunning with some booze or ring of ice will do difference although. And i've been on 4k gremlins mark without seeing ring of ice (even with TH).

later on: i usually find having not much to do with 2-3 talents anyway, so taking TH is not a loss and it serves as supply of water, booze and scrolls.

TH vs starting talents:
i do not find any talents being much of help. Or rather not being replaceable.
Speed - quick scouting in areas of herb growth (PC, dusty dungeon, upper CoC) gives you good DX(at least 30 with sickness) which gives some speed boost. Throw in long stride and you have enough. Installing tp control and fetching guaranteed wand is more important escape way anyway.
PV - quick descend to dwarftown, purchase smithing instead of detect traps, kill some dwarfes for pickaxes (nice use for TH), smith for anvil and forge that PV yourself.

Conclusion: I think everyone should try wit and without TH. Somehow i landed on TH side (untill i roll bard with three starting talents anyway). But i am huge fan of missile weapon master anyway.

[Silfir]

Not that this is related in any way to the topic at hand: Four wands of monster creation are not as easy to get destroyed as one. Wands don't stack. You have to have ALL FOUR wands chosen by the game to be destroyed, which is a lot rarer to happen.

"> Is that improvement worth three talents, considering that the other
> effects are largely useless?

If your skills are such, that you consider an extra starting +9 speed,
or 'immune to pain' useless, then yes."

I'm sorry for being unclear, I never intended to imply that the Speed talents are useless. They aren't, they rock. The PV talents less so, but that is not the topic at hand. I was talking about the other effects of taking the Treasure Hunter talent, i. e. increased gold drops, +1 perception and Missile Weapon Master possibility - the latter isn't actually that useless, as Soirana has pointed out.

"I think 'more items' does not = great, or even good, over 90% of the time it just = more bloat."

If you can carry more items without burdening yourself, is there any reason why you shouldn't do so? If anything, they help protect your valuable items from being destroyed. Sure, if you don't want to train strength, you should strive to keep yourself below burdened, but again, not the topic at hand.

"You keep saying 'I'. The TH talent may be more useful to you than most.
I say repeatedly that if one is uber-skilled, and hates scumming, then
TH is a feature of convenience. That doesn't keep the talent from
sucking though, as there are few players in that catagory. I honestly
put it in the same catagory as 'strong legs'."

WE KNOW YOU THINK IT SUCKS. You know I think it doesn't suck. Tell me what you mean by "sucking" and we can continue discussing that definition.

From what I can see, you seem to think the term "sucking" regarding talents is dependant on the amount of people for whom the talent should be seen as useless. I have trouble with that view. If anything, if skilled players of the game think a talent is convenient for them it should be an indication that it does not, in fact, suck (skilled players are people too! Well, most of them, anyway). The higher chance to get helpful items earlier means that it is nowhere near useless for beginners, as you seem to claim. Depending on playstyle and character (Orcish barbarians have NO need for any of the Skin talents, wizards could want more spellbooks) Hardy + PV, or the speed talents, are probably the better bet for early game survival, but that point was made clear long ago. It still doesn't make Treasure Hunter useless. Intermediate players, who know enough about the early game to survive most of the time, often switch to Treasure Hunter because they want those items, and they oftentimes get something worth the investment - good drops in the early game make the later, as of yet unknown, parts a lot less stressful.

Sucking starts (in my most humbly humble opinion of humbleriffic humbleness) when a talent is useless to everyone, as, say, that talent that gives +1 to Appearance I don't even want to bother looking up the name of, or Affinity to Thrown Hammers and Axes. Treasure Hunter is not useless to anybody except gut.

@Elone: We know. We can't help it.

[Molach]

By the way, I once did an experiment and concluded that pickpocketing is not affected by TH. I am a known pickpocket, so but do not pick everything in sight. Non-lethal monster, of course. I do not always pick. Because I can't be bothered. And since there are some very useful item-groups to be had, we all should. Scrolls, potions, amulets, rings.

Why don't we?

Not enough (real) time?
Can't be bothered to press the keys?
Think it is scummy (I imagine TB knows just how the skill works, and it is in the game still)?
Worry about align? (now this could be a reason)

...or do we simply have enough items and just need to get on with the game?

I'll go as far as call TH overrated and unneeded, and players might try to go without it and see if they really need it. Not that there is any way to tell, RNG is wicked that way.

[gut]

meh:
> The extra stat increasing potions
<snip>
> potions of water, scrolls of defense and protection and slaying

Yes, I know about all of those. I have said that I know about all of
those. Also, what I'm saying in addition to that, is:

1. You don't need them.
2. There are better ways of getting them, if you do want them (why?).

Soirana:
> ToEF: honestly i do not need any talents to go through.

Brag! But you have a right to : )
Seriously, I have done the tower with 99 HP's before, but there is
a big difference between doing it, and recommending it.

> wand of stunning with some booze

Agreed, tactics are far superior to talents.

> later on: i usually find having not much to do with 2-3 talents

Talents in general are a rather small part of the game. I'm just
comparing the benefits within this small part of the game.

> TH is not a loss and it serves as supply of water, booze and scrol

Yes I know that. I have already sai- oh never mind...

> i do not find any talents being much of help

We simply do not agree on that. Which PC would you have a better
chance with? One that starts with 3 extra HP's and +2 PV, or one
without. Grey says without, I say with.

> Speed - quick scouting in areas of herb growth

Dreams. Herbs are not guaranteed.

> tp control and fetching guaranteed wand is more important

Agreed indeed.

> PV - quick descend to dwarftown, purchase smithing

I don't agree with that. I don't call a dwarftown PC 'early-game'.
Sprinting to DT is a meat grinder.

Silfir:
> Four wands of monster creation are not as easy to get destroyed

In my experience, they are. If a vortex explodes in my face, sometimes
I lose nothing, sometimes I lose hordes, it's all RNG. If one stashes
important items elsewhere, then redundancy is good, but not much
benefit (in my eyes) if carried.

> keep yourself below burdened, but again, not the topic at hand.

I was pointing out that most TH related gains are low value. Hordes
of low value items would rarely be missed.

> Tell me what you mean by "sucking" and we can continue

I'll try : )

gut's definition of suck: To suck, something must have the property of
being useless, or near useless. It should also be redundant, expensive,
and dull.

Oh why does TH suck? Let me count the ways:

1. Useless.

The benefit is 12.5 more items per 100 kills. I did a test with an orc
barbarian (with no TH talent), just to see how many kills one can
expect tohave, upon completing the carpenter quest. I cleared all
tension rooms, but did not fully explore each level. I also did not
encounter many breeders. I also know that a weaker PC would have more
kills by that point, this is just an example.

It was 57. This means that I missed out on < 7 items on my stroll
through the VD. I do not feel deprived in the slightest, as the items
I did find (~30 in all), were almost all of no value. I did not gain
a single point of DV or PV (or anything else) from any of those items.
The theory of more junk = more benefit just doesn't hold true here. In
fact, I think 'missing out' on more junk is not deprivation, it's a
benefit : )

2. Redundant.

Should I take a notion to feel deprived (why?) of those 7 (or any
number) of useless items, I could easily stai- I mean, find other ways
of aquiring them. Perhaps... just kill a few more monsters : )

3. Expensive.

To pursue this talent (that would have helped me precious little),
I would have had to give up 3 other talents to pursue it. My PC did
start with Wi and To stats both over 15. This means that he is
eligible for the 'immune to pain' talent as soon as possible. He
aquired it at exp. level 3, for a total of 3 (indestructable) PV
points.

Also of note, is that this PC did melee ghost bats on his trip. These
can be scary for an orc, but I always recieved the message 'the ghost
bat fails to hurt you'. I can't prove that my extra PV points had
anything to do with that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I also
encountered a few traps, and while my HP's never dropped to within 3,
they nearly did (7). Extra HP's aren't guaranteed to save your life
in every game... but they have a decent chance of it : )

4. Dull.

The ideas of 'more items' and 'sometime in the future' do not appeal
to me. I don't want more (junk) later, I want something *fun* NOW!
I want to run circles around my opponant as they watch in frustration.
I want to bash tough monsters, and laugh as they 'do not hurt me'.
I want enough PP's to bookcast! Infinite spells = very useful. I want
to heal faster, and have MORE HP's! I want my non-archers to be able
to inflict actual damage with missiles! To put it bluntly, I'd rather
have 'strong legs' to kick in some monster heads. Anything but that
dull TH.

To summarize, I think TH is like a bad piece of abstract art:
Useless, redundant, expensive, and dull : )

[Silfir]

1. Useless

The starting equipment of an orcish barbarian is pretty badass anyway, so no surprise you didn't find anything noteworthy that early in the game. You can't quantify stuff like this with just one game, with so few drops. Also, I have no idea what kinds of item you deem useless...

Besides, is its early game value the only thing relevant if you want to debate the usefulness? Want to debate the value of your measly PV talents in the endgame?

Treasure Hunter may be useless to you because most, if not all items are apparently useless to you. It's not useless on its own.

2. Redundant

While you kill more monsters, go stairhopping, gremlin bombing and what have you, I get on with the game... The effect of the talent is not replacable. Kill more monsters for the loot missed, and Treasure Hunter would still have gotten you more. Again, you don't rely on items much in general, so for you, Treasure Hunter is redundant. Fair enough.

3. Expensive

A strange criterion. Does Affinity to Thrown Axes and Hammers suck? Yes? But why? It isn't expensive - it costs only one talent after all!

A talent can only be expensive in relation to its value, which is exactly what we were discussing right here. Yes, Treasure Hunter costs three talents, while your PV chain gets you two points of PV and three HP with these three talents (Hardy - Tough Skin - Iron Skin, right?). So, both cost the same. Which one is more expensive? Why, that which is of less use to us. However, there is no us. You want the PV talents more, I want Treasure Hunter more. Scratch that criterion, it's useless.

4. Dull

What's dull about "more loot without lifting a finger"? Also, this was probably the criterion farthest removed from any kind of objectivity. So you're the guy who wants instant, visible benefits. Fair enough, I can respect that. You find Treasure Hunter dull. Sadly, that does not make it Dull, or make it Suck per your definition - it makes it Suck in your view, which was where this thread started.

Not to mention that out of all the nice perks you mentioned, you can only get ONE of those with three talents, and you don't even need any talents.