The 'treasure hunter' talent sucks.

[Grey]

gut:
> I believe you just made my point for me : ) Cicero did not get the
> 'treasure hunter' talent until reaching exp. level 9, and he was only at
> exp. level 13 upon reaching the HMV. This means that he missed out on
> most of those extra items, and was still quite well equipped.

Oh come now, you're smarter than that. The majority of his kills would have been after level 9. He only had 108 kills at level 6 for instance. Anyway, my point was not necessarily that he got good items from it, but simply to demonstrate the sort of kill count (and thus the number of possible items) you would have before the game starts getting easy. I don't think 120 items is to be scoffed at during that stage of the game. Casting Create Item 120 times will likely net you several items that would come in handy for a level 13 character (I'll maybe test this some time to demonstrate but can't be arsed right now).

> This is *way* off topic, but any PC that can throw a rock can kill Hotz
> very easily.

Indeed, but it's not something I do. It's also fairly dangerous for early characters. Of course the extra speed talents I'm sure could help, heh... Anyway, I was just making the point that initially all my gold comes from item finds, so even junk is very handy to me early on.

> Tune in next week, when I declare PoGA's over-rated : )

I'd agree with you there actually - in terms of wishing for them at least. Better off wishing for potions of your favourite stat. In any case I tend to hoarde all my PoGA till I've maxed out stats from other sources like herbs, corpses and training, meaning they're more an added nicety than any use for survival. Their one good use is getting Pe higher, since it's hard to train otherwise without some lucky carrot rooms (which I very rarely get).

> It is this notion, that 'items are hard to come by', that
> causes me to constantly refer to other (scummy) methods of generating
> items.

It's not about "hard to come by" - it's about "nice to have". Nothing's necessary, as has been said many a time - it's just handy to passively gain more useful items. Or even more general items like holy water - it's just useful to have more without having to think about it. As for the "lottery" chance of getting very good items, well even it is more than useless. Misleading you can maybe say - some people perhaps put too much faith in the talent to give them nice stuff.

> I have noticed in our shared games, having to constantly drop heaps of
> worthless items (heap of 2 grizzly bear corpses!). Getting more items
> is just redundancy most of the time, and when it's not, the gains are
> mostly marginal. If you hit the AoLS grand prize, then congrats.

Annoying, isn't it? I think that's just down to individual playstyle though - I'm always extremely strict with my inventory myself, in spite of heavy pickpocketing, lots of killing/looting, and of course Treasure Hunter. I suppose you could argue that late in the game TH becomes a nuisance with the extra junk it generates, but you're gonna find plenty of junk anyway - it's not like it forces you to pick up more. And what little non-junk you find is still nice. Not in the least bit necessary, but nice.

> Seriously, I have done the tower with 99 HP's before, but there is
> a big difference between doing it, and recommending it.

Well, the fact is people were doing the Tower numerous times before TH was ever invented. I seem to remember teleportation being allowed in the top floor back then though... Still, I don't think there'll be much real argument here that any talent will really make a significant difference in the tower. Well, maybe Immune to Pain if you're pathetic enough not to get proper fire resistance (and the tower itself holds plenty of enemies for that).

> We simply do not agree on that. Which PC would you have a better
> chance with? One that starts with 3 extra HP's and +2 PV, or one
> without. Grey says without, I say with.

Now you're just trolling :P However low HP/PV really does make you much more cautious in the beginning... The chars that die more for me are the powerful ones that I don't prepare as much with due to overconfidence.

> I did a test with an orc
> barbarian (with no TH talent), just to see how many kills one can
> expect to have, upon completing the carpenter quest.

With very careful play I'll normally kill a couple of hundred monsters in the VD. Combined with PC, UD and early CoC I'll have racked up a very high kill count before Dwarftown. Before the Tower I'll easily pass 5k kills. Of course perhaps others aren't as bloodthirsty as me, but in my games TH cannot be seen as something that sucks - it adds a very decent number of items, not all of which are junk. In the early game even the junk is useful.

In summary my opinion is thus: Treasure Hunter makes the game more fun. Why? Well there's a few reasons:

1) TH gives more items in general. We can argue about how many and how useful, but the simple fact it gives more is undeniable. In general this can open up more tactics. Just your starting equipment gives you very limited options - every extra item widens your abilities somewhat.

2) TH reduces the need for scummy tactics. Everywhere you've said "but you can stairhop" or whatever you've ignored the fact that it's a very boring way of doing things. TH is not - it's completely passive, and can reduce the need or desire for boring ways of acquiring things. Thus it increasees the fun of the game (or reduces the unfun stuff at least). It won't get you an AoLS (though I could maybe argue it increases the chance of an early RoDS drop, since that's something I've seen happen in several games - but such small chances are fairly irrelevant, most of the time you'll still end up pool-sipping) but it will get you other items that are helpful. It cannot be considered equivalent to scummy tactics, since they are both more limited in item scope and take away from the fun of the game. Of course you can argue that dying isn't fun either, but that depends on how much you die... and how much you like death Most deaths are from player mistakes anyway. And only through accepting death can you really enjoy ADOM...

I'll also point out that when it comes to scummy methods for finding items (other than pool-scumming and general pickpocketing, and of course late game BDC scumming) what I'll do is kill things in the ID or the High Kings dungeon. TH thus doubles the rewards from the only tactic I will use to get specific items. So if I want to use my scummy boring tactic it (theoretically) cuts the time I have to spend in half.

3) Profit. In the long run TH will give sufficient improvements to the char (stat potions etc) to make it worth more than any other combination of talents. You constantly compare it to early talents but there's nothing to stop you getting those as well, as long as you choose Alert at the start. The early levels come quick and fast, so delaying TH till L12 or 15, or even 18, will still mean it'll apply to the vast majority of your kills in the game. It will pay itself back overall. Remember that even in the late game it means a greater chance of eternium eq from chaos knights. It can take just a few significant items to make it profitable overall. Everyone likes having an optimised character by the end of the game, and TH is a good choice for that compared with other talents (which are for the most part very worthless - I'd only consider the speed, carrying capacity and fast missile talents to really stand their ground late game).

[Alavir]

3) Profit. In the long run TH will give sufficient improvements to the char (stat potions etc) to make it worth more than any other combination of talents. You constantly compare it to early talents but there's nothing to stop you getting those as well, as long as you choose Alert at the start. The early levels come quick and fast, so delaying TH till L12 or 15, or even 18, will still mean it'll apply to the vast majority of your kills in the game. It will pay itself back overall. Remember that even in the late game it means a greater chance of eternium eq from chaos knights. It can take just a few significant items to make it profitable overall. Everyone likes having an optimised character by the end of the game, and TH is a good choice for that compared with other talents (which are for the most part very worthless - I'd only consider the speed, carrying capacity and fast missile talents to really stand their ground late game).

When you go to levels 15 or so, those other talents (extra speed, extra PV or DV, etc) dont improve your chance to staying alive by much, and TH is useful to gain extra pots that can be life saving in the late game. As Grey said, you just need to choose Alert as starting talent, but many people would choose that to get missile weapon master...
TH can be overrated, but it doesn't suck and i get it almost always.

[Soirana]

Soirana:
> ToEF: honestly i do not need any talents to go through.
Brag! But you have a right to : )
Seriously, I have done the tower with 99 HP's before, but there is
a big difference between doing it, and recommending it.

I didn't say i do that without stats. In normal game my toughness is at 33-35 at moment of entering tower. Somehow i am not in love with anemic wizards.

> i do not find any talents being much of help
We simply do not agree on that. Which PC would you have a better
chance with? One that starts with 3 extra HP's and +2 PV, or one
without. Grey says without, I say with.

I said I do not care. [I mean with 15 Toughness i will get away if i keep myself careful. Technically even stone blocks might be avoided by some ultraconservative tactics]

> Speed - quick scouting in areas of herb growth
Dreams. Herbs are not guaranteed.

1. Big room (okay that is dangerous place)
2. Quick scouting and restarting char.

I don't agree with that. I don't call a dwarftown PC 'early-game'.
Sprinting to DT is a meat grinder.

And spending Talents on PV is plainly boring... we won't get nowhere with these arguments.

[Elone]

If you keep this up, I'll start posting my Casino slot result dumps in this thread. You all know how lengthy they can be. Beware.

P.S. It wont be lengthier and more dull than this topic so far.

[Grey]

P.S. It wont be lengthier and more dull than this topic so far.

We're just getting started :P

[gut]

Here come another wall of text! : )

The value of most any item decreases drastically with time. For
example, starting with a potion of cure poison is very valuable,
finding one at exp. level 3 is still very nice, at level 6 it's
still nice, at level 9 it's fair, and at level 12 it's nothing
but junk. A metal cap to start is nice (but highly vulnerable),
at exp. level 12 it's also just redundant, perhaps you find a
+2 one, but you won't notice the slightest difference in game
play from it.

Maybe that is a more clear way of expressing my thoughts on this
miserable talent. What difference would you notice in game-play,
if you played without it? Maybe this is what makes me think so
differently from most players, I have played the *vast* majority
of my ADOM games, before TH ever existed. I think this gives me
a good perspective to evaluate the usefulness of TH. I can
honestly say I notice no difference in game-play, at *any* point
in the game.

With or without TH, the begining quests are just as difficult
as they ever were, and are accomplished in the same time frame.
TH does not provide *any* noticable benefit at that point in
the game, so why have it? I reach Dwarftown within the same
time frame, with no noticible effect on game-play. I reach the
Griffyard at the same time in the game, with no effect on game
play. I reach the pyramid, the TotHK's, the Water temple, the
ToEF, the Cat Lord and so on, *all* at the same points in the
game as I am able to WITHOUT THE TH TALENT. It makes no
noticable difference at any given point in the game.

Let us compare that with my thoughts on some other talents.
I only switched from ADOM 1.0.0 in the last year (I found it
more stable, and really only switched because that was the
version that everyone else seemed to be playing). Upon
switching, I *did* notice the GAME-CHANGING differences that
some talents made. Of particular note is 'long stride'. I was
really blown away by that one. After playing this masochistic
game for nearly a decade, without being able to outrun early
game monsters, a talent like that makes a big impression and
a big difference in game-play.

The speed talents also made a *huge* difference in game play.
When chosing these, after nearly a decade of doing without
them, one can not help but notice big benefits. The PV talents
also provide a real difference in game play. Chosing these
will actually allow me to do things earlier than I previously
could, they actually *noticably* increase my rate of survival.
Some missile feats like (but not limited to) 'fling the bling'
or 'kill Terinyo', I think, are only practical with the missile
talents. Chosing these talents actually provides a difference
one can feel, TH simply doesn't do that.

The PP's talents also provide game changing benefits for
spellcasters. With low PP's and concentration skill level,
getting the WP blanket from the SMC can be really dangerous.
With extra (sometimes double) starting PP's, it makes the
blanket a much more viable task for an exp. level 1 PC. Talents
like the HP's line, the DV line, and even the carrying capacity
line, all provide benefits that do impact game play.

Silfir:
> no surprise you didn't find anything noteworthy

Granted.

> You can't quantify stuff like this with just one game

I wasn't really trying to quantify anything. Really I just wanted to
find out how many kills it takes, to get to the center of a healing-
skill-based, mad-carpenter-quest : )

> what kinds of item you deem useless...

Items that grant no difference in game play. Items that I would
happily throw away, and thus hinder myself, not even the tiniest
iota. Items whose only purpose to exist, would be as fodder for
fireball traps. Items that when dropped on the floor of a shop,
makes the shopkeeper giggle. Those kinds of items. Worthless junk.

> Want to debate the value of your measly PV talents in the endgame?

Happily. After reaching the casino, TH = 0. The PV talents are still
indestructable. That means, unlike my nice 7LB's, I can actually take
my PV points through every trap in the game, into all of the temples
in the game, face every annihilator, and eye of destruction in the
game, and they will even survive the occasional divine smiting : )

> most, if not all items are apparently useless to you

That was funny : ) Seriously, I know the value of items. At least I
can say I have a good idea of what is needed, and what is not, at
most given most given points in any game. Anything that is not needed
is bloat, as you would notice no difference were it not there. Some
bloat is fine, it's for a margin of error, but all of that is nicely
provided for without the TH talent.

> While you kill more monsters, go stairhopping, gremlin bombing
> and what have you, I get on with the game

Now you are just being silly Silfir. Remember who your typing at : )

> The effect of the talent is not replacable

I don't agree. Not in the slightest.

> for you, Treasure Hunter is redundant. Fair enough.

What I am hoping to prove, is that TH is useless for the average
player, not me. It would actually rise above the level of 'suck'
for me, as I can survive extreme situations, and hate scumming.
It is the average, 'haven't won an ADOM game yet' player that is
being mis-lead by the illusions (delusions) of TH. OTHER TALENTS
WILL SERVE YOU BETTER!!!!!!

> Thrown Axes and Hammers suck? Yes? But why? It isn't expensive
> - it costs only one talent after all!

Lottery tickets only cost 1$. 'Someones got to win, it might as
well be you'! Do not pay something real, even if it's small, in
exchange for dreams. The one talent does cost, it will delay the
point at which you obtain the really cool talents like 'immune
to pain'. As one approaches the ToEF, exp. levels do come more
slowly.

> (Hardy - Tough Skin - Iron Skin, right?).

Right.

> Which one is more expensive? Why, that which is of less use to
> us. However, there is no us.

Barring restricted games, there is an us. I am refering to the game,
as it is, not with scum restrictions, as played by the majority of
ADOM players. TH does not change game-play, and if pursued, will
delay the point at which nice talents are available. I think the
popularity of the TH talent, is due to the guidebook saying that it
is great. People read it, and think it's true, but I don't think so.

> You want the PV talents more, I want Treasure Hunter more.
> Scratch that criterion, it's useless.

To say that I want PV more is not always accurate. I sometimes play
games with extreme restrictions, that may cause me to benefit more
from TH, than PV. I'm not an amature, so I can do without PV, if
I have a good reason : ) This is not a real way of judging talents
though, as 'strong legs' could be useful in some 'extreme restriction'
games. Just because something has value under occasional, and *very*
narrow parameters, doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

> You find Treasure Hunter dull. Sadly, that does not make it Dull

Yes. Sadly the 'because I say so' argument is rather pathetic : )
I mainly included that as humor, but it is my viewpoint. I think it's
possible that a lot of players share it though, based on some of the
'wish' related threads I've read. The AoLS is the best, but it's not
a *fun* wish. It trades a cool and immediate benefit, for a dream of
a future payout that may never happen.

> you don't even need any talents.

Careful... using that word : )

...

I typed this in a text editor, and just pasted it into the form
field. I actually exceeded the character limit with this post! Oh,
I can't stop laughing! : )

[gut]

Oh, that was hilarious : )

Grey:

> Oh come now, you're smarter than that.

If only! : )

> majority of his [Cicero's] kills would have been after level 9.

Well that depends on what monsters he had killed before and
after getting TH, and I didn't check that. I was pretty sure
that Cicero did visit DT before the HMV, but didn't check the
kill count. Even if he did have fewer kills from exp. level 1-9
as opposed to 9-13, I still consider most items to be de-valued
as the game progresses, so I think my point still holds. Cicero
progressed just as nicely *before* getting TH as he did after.
There was no noticable improvement in survival rate (a clear
winner either way), or game play, after aquiring TH.

> It's [killing Hotz] also fairly dangerous for early characters

No it's not. Use the water as a shield.

> It's not about "hard to come by" - it's about "nice to have"

That's a phrase that has been used often here, when describing
TH. It's 'nice to have'. The problem that I have with that
phrase, is that it could be used for just about anything under
the sun. A heap of 6 fireproof blankets, 'nice to have'. I
can't reasonably say no to that, but at the same time I do
consider it redundant, and to have *no* bearing on game-play.

> it is more than useless

Near useless? Still sucks in my book.

> people perhaps put too much faith in the talent [TH]

Yep. Dreams full of wonders, a pack full of junk.

> Now you're just trolling :P

I meant to put a ': )' in there, but it got lost due to ineptitude.

> in my games TH cannot be seen as something that sucks

I have already conceded, that in the very limited parameters of
'uber skill' plus 'me hate scum', TH does rise (marginally) above
the level of suck.

> this [TH] can open up more tactics. Just your starting equipment
> gives you very limited options - every extra item widens your
> abilities somewhat.

A good point here, about starting items. If TH gave some nice
starting items, then I wouldn't say it sucks, as that could have a
bearing on game play. It doesn't, so it does. By the time you find
that extra (TH based) item, you have already found several without
it. The extra periodic items, sprinkled throughout the game, will
not change what you can do, or when.

> TH reduces the need for scummy tactics

Is it possible to reduce something that small? : ) I suppose so,
but it doesn't do so drastically, TH's often lack items that
non-TH's have.

> you've ignored the fact that it's [scumming] a very boring way

I have? I say there is no need for either, but *if* one feels the
need (why?), then scumming is better. Don't pay too much attention
to the second part, as the first is more important : ) The need
for scumming is small, so reducing it means little.

> kill things in the ID or the High Kings dungeon. TH thus doubles

Would it still be double, by the TotHK's? Whatever you are looking
for is likely unneeded, or there are better ways.

> In the long run TH will give sufficient improvements

In my eyes, anything beyond the casino is moot. Up until then, I
believe TH benefits to be negligible, and impact game-play 0%.

> there's nothing to stop you getting those [other talents] as well

There is one thing that would stop me dead in my tracks. Items are
most useful early on, as the game goes on, items look more and more
like junk. If one delays gaining TH, they turn a sucky talent into
a waste of keypresses : )

> in the late game it means a greater chance of eternium eq

The benefit of which, (almost) all PC's won't notice even in the
slightest.

> talents to really stand their ground late game

Stand what ground in the late game? What difference would any talent
make in the late game? All talents depreciate with time, and TH leads
the pack. Upon reaching the casino (for most), TH = ZERO.

Alavir:
> TH is useful to gain extra pots

gut, sounding like a broken record: better ways

Soirana:
> I didn't say i do that [ToEF] without stats.

I didn't mean to imply that you did.

> 2. Quick scouting and restarting char.

A valid starting method, but in even in those games, extra PV can
help one survive until the herbs yield benefits. After the herb
benefits, victory is nearly guaranteed anyway, so extra items would
produce no game-play impact.

> spending Talents on PV is plainly boring

You find it boring for (nearly) all early game monsters to take (up
to) 3 fewer HP's, with every single attack?! That's not what I call
boring, that's what I call sweet.

[Grey]

I think that's the first time we've seen a regular discussion post loop over two posts - well done, gut, I'm sure Elone will be pleased with you ;P

> Even if he did have fewer kills from exp. level 1-9
> as opposed to 9-13, I still consider most items to be de-valued
> as the game progresses, so I think my point still holds.

Again, my point was about the number of kills. If you took TH initially you might expect around 120 extra items before HMV or Dwarftown. Decent chance that there are items in there that will give an edge in my opinion. Extra speed or PV is very situation specific. TH... well, it can be all things to all people, but mostly it relies on luck. I like to ride Lady Luck myself.

>> It's [killing Hotz] also fairly dangerous for early characters
>
> No it's not. Use the water as a shield.

For early chars assassins and outlaw leaders can be just as deadly as Hotzy. And it's quite lethal if you accidentally screw it up - most people aren't too experienced with the tactic.

>> Now you're just trolling :P
>
> I meant to put a ': )' in there, but it got lost due to ineptitude.

I got the message anyway! But it is still true that I think early PV can go to your head - a long stint in VD1&2 is still good for guaranteeing every character success. Start off with some fang-dangled PV and you might get stupid bravado ideas like going to the infinite dungeon! Not to mention the tomfoolery of trying to save that damn dog, or running after some worthless blanket, or descending down to levels where you can run into necromancers and ogre magi...

> I have already conceded, that in the very limited parameters of
> 'uber skill' plus 'me hate scum', TH does rise (marginally) above
> the level of suck.

I'm not uber skilled or anti-scum (well, not entirely). I just know how to be careful early on and don't like doing boring shit for items (or exploiting buggyish things - well, some of them). I also like items - the more the merrier. I'm sure I'm not in a complete minority in some of those matters.

> Would it still be double, by the TotHK's? Whatever you are looking
> for is likely unneeded, or there are better ways.

Not my ways. Not sure if it would still be double, but seems to me it should be. Only monsters with guaranteed drops and certain breeders seem to be unaffected by TH (haven't tested properly). Still, point is that if I do need to scum for something then TH actually becomes even more important to me. Killing things is part of the game, and going around a cavern level slaughtering critters is more fun to me than bothering with silly gremlins or the worthless ID.

> Stand what ground in the late game? What difference would any talent
> make in the late game? All talents depreciate with time, and TH leads
> the pack. Upon reaching the casino (for most), TH = ZERO.

Y'know, I don't see why you rate the casino so highly - it's not like it stocks every item in the game. Often it has very few things I can be bothered buying. Certainly by that stage you have a decent range of eq, but as said before extra things like holy water and booze are still nice to have more of, not to mention stat potions and scrolls of defense/protection. You could argue that there's less kills after then, but there's still the temples and whatever vaults, along with half the CoC. And yeah, you can say the extra items don't make much difference, but don't tell me you utterly stop picking items up after the casino...

Now imagine for a minute that at level 25 a new talent tree becomes available to you - at the cost of two talents you can have +1 to each stat, +2 DV/PV, 5 holy water and 3 booze. This is, as I see it, the absolute bare minimum benefit you would get from Treasure Hunter. Yeah, Casino and whatnot will give you all that too, but you'll get this as extra. Now, are there any other talents at that stage (after you've had at least 9 talents already) that you'd choose above this?

Useful talents in my eyes are speed and carrying, and both unimportant early on (speed is nice I guess, but not so useful early on - it's just nice to have at any point so it usually hits my priorities mid game). Missile stuff is good to have for non-casters, but not urgent unless really relying on it. So after level 24 or so every talent choice is just about character optimisation - a little extra DV here, some better missile damage there. Nothing important, nothing I couldn't improve by other means, but still worth picking up. TH in my eyes is at least worth these, even at that level. Of course I always choose it early to get maximum benefit from it, but if I really were so worried about getting survival talents initially then I'd still choose Alert at the start and save TH for later.

[Silfir]

"With or without TH, the begining quests are just as difficult
as they ever were, and are accomplished in the same time frame.
TH does not provide *any* noticable benefit at that point in
the game, so why have it? I reach Dwarftown within the same
time frame, with no noticible effect on game-play. I reach the
Griffyard at the same time in the game, with no effect on game
play. I reach the pyramid, the TotHK's, the Water temple, the
ToEF, the Cat Lord and so on, *all* at the same points in the
game as I am able to WITHOUT THE TH TALENT. It makes no
noticable difference at any given point in the game.

[more clarification of the point]"

The thing about Treasure Hunter is that the game doesn't rub your nose in it when it kicks in. We have seen the experiments made by Grey in the RGRA. They prove that the increase in drop rate is VERY MUCH noticable, if one bothers to pay attention. Which we don't do in a game - we accept the item drops we get as a given without thinking twice. Is that the fault of Treasure Hunter? No. So while the effect is not easily noticable, it is there, and it's not a small one.

It bears repetition, because that seems to be one of your key arguments pro Treasure Hunter suckage: It is not useless. It also is not "near useless". Just because the extra items aren't stamped "Brought to you by Treasure Hunter" doesn't mean you can just ignore them. (More precisely, since you don't need as many items as many other players, I guess you can ignore them. That's what I mean by differences in playing style.)

"> Want to debate the value of your measly PV talents in the endgame?

Happily. After reaching the casino, TH = 0. The PV talents are still
indestructable. That means, unlike my nice 7LB's, I can actually take
my PV points through every trap in the game, into all of the temples
in the game, face every annihilator, and eye of destruction in the
game, and they will even survive the occasional divine smiting : )"

I shouldn't have asked such a dumb question...

Yes, the extra PV points are indestructable. There's still only two of them, and they help you shit.

"What I am hoping to prove, is that TH is useless for the average
player, not me. It would actually rise above the level of 'suck'
for me, as I can survive extreme situations, and hate scumming.
It is the average, 'haven't won an ADOM game yet' player that is
being mis-lead by the illusions (delusions) of TH. OTHER TALENTS
WILL SERVE YOU BETTER!!!!!!"

Average players, if anything, benefit more from additional items than advanced players. It is the total n00bs that should never get Treasure Hunter. I think you're overestimating the amount of skill required to survive the early game - average players are average players because they have stopped dying all the time, so why not Treasure Hunter to get extra stuff that will help you survive the midgame? The early game may be the objectively hardest part, but for average players, the parts that they haven't even seen yet should be considered hardest.

"Scum restrictions" are what we are assuming throughout all of this discussion (Nice try sneaking that "no scum restrictions" in again, though). Average players don't regularly find scumming a fun pastime. Some grow accustomed to using certain scumming methods on their way to victory; I wasn't among them, so I largely didn't scum at all. It's not only the "uber-skilled" that hate scumming that want Treasure Hunter - Average players can hate scumming just as much, and prefer the extra loot of Treasure Hunter, and if they feel they can afford getting Alert and later obtaining Treasure Hunter after getting some early game survival talents, why should they not get Treasure Hunter?

"Stand what ground in the late game? What difference would any talent
make in the late game? All talents depreciate with time, and TH leads
the pack. Upon reaching the casino (for most), TH = ZERO."

The whole point is that we didn't want to use scumming tactics. Casino restocking IS a scumming tactic. Nice job finding the one we didn't mention yet and using THAT as an argument, gut.

Talents that have very remarkable effects even in the late game include the Porter chain (for non-spellcasters), Quick Shot, Lightning Shot. Treasure Hunter still has an effect, because monsters never stop dropping loot (though later on the increase offered by Treasure Hunter may be lower - on the other hand, the quality of the drops is higher). It's not an easily noticable effect, but it is there.

"In my eyes, anything beyond the casino is moot. Up until then, I
believe TH benefits to be negligible, and impact game-play 0%."

Meep. Wrong. See the first paragraph I wrote in this post.

"gut, sounding like a broken record: better ways"

Silfir, feeling like breaking record completely: no other ways to get extra items without doing anything, therefore no better ways (I was unclear before. The effect of Treasure Hunter is replacable, but only through additional effort, which is what makes Treasure Hunter the much-lauded convenience feature it is.)



Sort of off-topic: When did pool-drinking start to be considered a scumming tactic? There's considerable risk involved (aging, elementals, dooming, losing intrinsics) and there's only a very limited number of pools. At most, you get one or two wishes, oftentimes you're left cursed and doomed with only some intrinsics to show for it. Hardly comparable to killing 2000 gremlins, or generating 10000 different ID levels through stairhopping.

[gut]

Grey:
> If you took TH initially you might expect around 120 extra items before HMV

You wouldn't even have to take it initially, as the first hundred kills (or
3 kills, if you chose) should get you to exp. level 6. Thus still allowing the
lion share of the extra 120 items (from ~1000 kills) to be found. However, you
would have also generated *naturally* thousands of items in that same time frame.
With each natural item found (the vast majority), the use for more is devalued.
Do you really need a heap of 12 potions of potential Ch?

> Extra speed or PV is very situation specific

I think it is quite universal. Well, maybe not against claw bugs, but still.

> most people aren't too experienced with the tactic.

Agreed.

> I'm not uber skilled

Oh, don't try to pull THAT one! : ) I would mention the space your name does
occupy in a certain hall.

> or anti-scum

!!![SARCASM]!!! OK !!![/SARCASM]!!!
*and every othter sarcasm mark in the world* : )

> and don't like doing boring

Back to what I said TH was 'unsuckish' for last posts.

> if I do need to scum for something

I just don't think there are that many items worth scumming for. If I thought
there were more, maybe I would think differently (still very narrowly though),
but I just don't think so.

> slaughtering critters is more fun to me than bothering with silly gremlins

Me too : ) I would have more fun killing things, if I decided to scum for
items... but I so rarely do that. Just because it's more fun doesn't mean it
is more effective, or as safe. I might also point out that most players do not
have 88 gazilion point victories yet, so a safer method might be prefered.
Monsters like gorgons can turn up in those cavernous levels, and even kill you
while out of sight.

> why you rate the casino so highly

The casino has such amazing benefits, I don't know where to start.

> it's not like it stocks every item in the game

Do you need every item in the game? Whoops, scratch the 'n' word. What I meant
to say, is that if you *had* more items, sitting right there in your pack,
would you notice a difference in game play? Even the slightest difference,
between that and a regular pack-full. My experience says no way. Leaving TH in
the 'sucks' catagory once more.

> Often it has very few things I can be bothered buying

I would not attribute that to the results of the TH talent. I would be more
likely to think, that in that sort of a situation, some item scumming has
already occured. If not, then I assume you and I have a similar definition of
what constitutes junk. Rendering TH near useless again.

> This is, as I see it, the absolute bare minimum benefit you would get from
<snip>
> you'll get this as extra.

Extra is an OK word for it. I think another way of saying 'extra' would be
'near worthless'. You would not notice a difference in game play. I would
still have rather had the help I needed WHEN I NEEDED IT. A drink of water
is worth little in the kitchen, but in the desert...

> speed is nice I guess, but not so useful early on

Goodness. You don't think early speed is great?!

Silfir:
> the increase in drop rate is VERY MUCH noticable

Agreed.

> we accept the item drops we get as a given without thinking twice

Agreed, and nodding my head with enthusiasm!

> Is that the fault of Treasure Hunter? No

Agreed.

> effect is not easily noticable, it is there, and it's not a small one

... you lost me : )

I'm attempting to prove that it is a small one. A very small one, that pales
in comparison to the really good alternatives. I think every PC will get
hordes of items, regardless of TH, you will get far more than is needed.
Blah, I used that word again. Yes, I say the average ADOM PC does live in
abundance, as far as item generation is concerned. You won't suffer for
lack of that occasional 'extra' (aka needless, aka worthless) item that
will be sprinkled throughout the game as you progress.

> doesn't mean you can just ignore them

I'm not ignoring the extra items that TH 'brings to me'. I'm questioning thier
value. Here are some reasons why I think it is very low: You don't start with
these items, you have to earn them. They come to you slowly. They come to you
in a mess of other items, that are of equal value. When you do finally recieve
them, the game has already provided you other ways of gaining the same (or
better) benefits.

> There's still only two of them [PV],

I would hope by then there would be at least three. I count 'immune to pain' as
a PV point. In the late game, indestructible PV isn't fantastic, but TH is
still less, as it can't provide an indestructible anything.

> Average players, if anything, benefit more from additional items

Better ways. That won't cost you starting benefits.

> so why not Treasure Hunter to get extra stuff

See above post.

> "Scum restrictions" are what we are assuming throughout all of this discussion

We are? I wasn't informed.

> Average players can hate scumming just as much

If average players want to play with the 'no scum' restriction, then the TH
talent would gain some value for them as well. By the same logic, if they
want to play as blind monks, I highly advise taking 'strong legs' at the
earliest possible opportunity : )

> why should they not get Treasure Hunter

I would advise having (at the very least), one good 'no save scum' victory
under one's belt, before playing with the 'no item scum' restriction. I believe
that until the 'no item scum' restriction comes into play, TH is blown out of
the water by the other talents. I would probably advise speed.

> Casino restocking IS a scumming tactic

I agree. However, I did not mention the word restock. I think that is one more
example of our difference in opinions, of what constitutes 'enough', as opposed
to 'redundancy'. When I said the casino makes TH useless, you think that means
generating tens of thousands of items. Most of the arguments I use to bash TH,
could just as easily be applied to casino restocking. Does one really n--- that
many items?

> Meep.

Nanu nanu : )

> no other ways to get extra items without doing anything,

Well, how lazy can the average player expect to get away with being!? If they
think that 10 minutes is too much effort to put into finding those 'extra'
hurthling cakes, then I say: LET THEM NOT EAT CAKE!

> much-lauded convenience feature it is.

Replace the word lauded with over-rated, and I agree. It is a convenience, but
I say nothing more. Speed is better, as are other talents.

> When did pool-drinking start to be considered a scumming tactic

I don't consider it scumming. It's just an alternative to lucky finds, that's
why I mentioned it.


Hey, I got this one in one post! I wonder if Caladriel would be proud of me? : )
On a side note, why are females against long-winded-ness on forums? This seems
like it's the opposite of real life, where females are usually more chatty.

PS. I would like to see those slot machine message dumps. I have a theory about
the dragon + goblin + troll combination, but I have lost my own files : )