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Thread: Alechemy for JADE

  1. #1
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    Default Alechemy for JADE

    I've been thinking about how to better the ADOM alchemy system some time ago, and I though about sharing my thoughts with you guys.
    I must confess that I was really satisfied with what alchemy looked like in the last two Elder Scrolls series games, so some of the inspiration comes from these. However, this is JADE and it can be done better than that (-:

    As you remember, in ADOM you had the Alchemy skill, which gave you 1 recipe per 10 skill points, each one of these being a utility potion of sorts. The recipe usually consisted of two potions or a potion and a herb. Ingredients and the recipes were randomized (or rather, items were selected from a list).

    Now, I like the bare bones of the system, especially the random factor, and I think this one would greatly benefit from expanding it.

    So what do we need:
    INGREDIENTS: Potions and herbs work well, but the herb list should be definitely expanded.
    I would also suggest monster body parts to be used as possible ingredients. Whenever a -foo- leaves a corpse, you can use your Alchemy on it, to hopefully extract something useful. From bat's wings, to viper's venom to dragon bones.
    Gemstones, when powdered, could also be used as ingredients. Base metals are also popular in this business.

    While Alchemy shops seem a must, so that the PC has access to the needed tools and materials of his trade, it should be definitely possible to be able to find all of the ingredients on your own. That's where other skills appear:

    Metallurgy & Mining: If you need to find that powdered silver for your Elixir of youth, one way is to find a good spot and start digging. Instead of simply identifying metals Metallurgy could be used to find ore veins.

    Herbalism: So far it allowed to ID the herbs, and increase the chance of them being uncursed and blessed.
    How about if it could be used like survival, in order to gather herbs from a wilderness tile.

    Food Preservation: If you want to cut open monsters for ingredients, you need a corpse. FP makes it so that the fallen foe remains useful.

    Some organization of these ingredients should be in order, so that the recipes do not seem entirely random, and some of these actually can make sense (like using fire beetle gland for fire-based effect, etc.)

    RECIPES: Gaining recipes by increasing your alchemy skill represents the research you do on your own, and the deeper undestanding of the alchemical pinciples. This works, but we need more: recipes for sale in alchemy shops for you to learn (would work as a scroll of gain recipe), they could also be learned from books, npc, during quests.

    There should be basic and advanced recipes, for beginners and master alchemists. There should also be recipes that allow more than two ingredients to be mixed, possibly for a more powerful effect.
    There may be requorements to learning them (Alchemy, Literacy, maybe character level)

    Oh, and I think there should be multiple reipes for the same thing. Wy not? You just learned that the recipe for the PoGA is PoCC + ! of Wonder? Tough luck, maybe you'll find an advanced recipe using plain water, devil's rose and dragon's teeth. Of course some moderation here, up to three different recipes for the same thing seems just about right.

    TOOLS OF THE TRADE: Some things could be new, sometimes why not add a new use for an otherwise underused item. Some form of alchemy set would be the bare minimum requirement to conduct alchemy. We could have advanced sets for advanced elixirs. What else?
    The good 'ole scalpel could be the tool to extract those precious things from fallen -foo-.
    And the mortar & pestle for making powdered gems etc.

    PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER:
    So you have it there, the basic goal is to make the pure alchemist a viable class, on par with the other spell-slingers.
    Also, all characters would benefit from alchemy to an extent. Oils that increase weapon's effectiveness? Thrown projectiles for thieves & assassins (Explosive, Confusing, Blinding).

    Another wild thing, with a little magic and a little smithing, why not use all these ingredients for enchanting weapons.
    There's already a request for item augmentations among the features, why not do it like this:
    you all the smithing gear, a forge, the works. Now, instead of adding hit&damage bonuses to an item, you imbue it with the spell in your spellbook. You know Acid bolt? Then make your longsword deal bonus acid damage. Be sure to have a sample of viper's venom around, or perhaps black dragon gizzard for a greater effect.

    Phew, got a bit long-winded. Might be a bit chaotic here and there.
    Whaddaya think about it anyway?

    EDIT: Ghrrr... way to do it, a typo in the title :-/
    Last edited by spectre; 03-12-2008 at 09:40 PM.

  2. #2
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    HELL YES! I'd love this!
    I never won a Adom game...

  3. #3
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    Though I like the idea, I think the rarity of certain ingredients might make it too difficult to be easily applied. Silver veins for instance - how often would you find those? Mind you, I guess the amount of gems and eternium you can find in ADOM is a bit ridiculous. I still prefer the current ADOM recipe system to the system used in the Elder Scrolls game - it's much less open to abuse. Ingredients should still be somewhat rare, and the results not overpowered.

    Explosive potions would be great, as would more offensive ways of using alchemy (acid potion for instance, that can cause damage and dissolve enemy's equipment). An alchemist class would be brilliant - level powers could include immunity to fire (thus allowing easy offensive alchemy like ADOM currently has),
    better alchemy results (maybe double the production), greater range with thrown potions, etc.

  4. #4
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    Great ideas!

    My 2 cents: it would be great if some of the recipes wouldn't be available directly by finding the recipe, but some hints find during the game (much like fortune cookies in ADOM), for example: the healing potion can be done by mixing herb A, herb B and potion C. The player finds a book, reads it and gets a message: "you find a strange scribbling on the side of the text: >>recently I found out that using herb D greatly improves the power of healing potion<<". The player have to perform some experiments to find out if the "greatly improved healing potion" recipe is ABCD, ABD, ACD, BCD (or even try more combinations if the order of adding ingredients would matter) or he just need to read "Potionmaking 101 by Very Wise Alchemist" and find the text "the healing potion can be created by mixing three ingredients: herb B provides main healing factor, potion C is common alchemical base for minor potions (for the definition of minor potions read chapter 2) and herb A ensures the smooth blending of first two components". Then the player knows that the improved healing potion can be created using herb A, herb D and potion C (or try the recipe only to find out that herb D and potion C need other blending component than herb A).

  5. #5
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    @Grey

    "Though I like the idea, I think the rarity of certain ingredients might make it too difficult to be easily applied. Silver veins for instance - how often would you find those?"

    True, not often, but should you ever find one, it should last for long. That's basically why I want Alchemy shops in. If you can't find something, go any buy it. Also, that may help in balancing. It's not that you need silver for every item?

    "I still prefer the current ADOM recipe system to the system used in the Elder Scrolls game"
    Perhaps my inital statement was a bit misleading (and I must confess I changed a few ideas while writing it up eventually). Let's settle for something like this:
    I'd want JADE Alchemists to be able to duplicate most functions of a spellcasting class using recipes and ingredients, so that they're a viable class on its own.

    "Ingredients should still be somewhat rare,"
    Waybe not all of them, but those granting permanent effects definitely should.
    "and the results not overpowered."
    No more than in ADOM I guess. Overpowered potions can be nerfed by requiring unique ingredients. Want PoGA? Go hunt some Ancient Karmic Wyrms. Once you're a it, the moonstone you also need is sometimes found in the deepest sunken caverns. Have fun.

    @chalup
    Nice ideas. The recipe system is definitely something which cen be improved upon.
    How about something like this: the recipes gained fom rising Alchemy are always 100% complete and will always work

    Once you find a "scroll of recipe" and succesfully read it (or a book, which provides 1d4 hints), you receive a vague part of the recipe.

    For example, let's say that a recipe for Potion of Ultra Healing is a powdered Sapphire, Potion of Healing and Kobold's Tongue.

    You read the first recipe, and the entry in your recipes looks like this:
    Mixing powdered Sapphire and Kobold's tongue may lead to creating a benficial brew.

    Second recipe (they could are random, so it's not guaranteed. You could receive something else)
    Mixing powdered Sapphire and Kobold's tongue and a potion is sure to create a Potion of Ultra Healing.

    Third Recipe
    You finally receive the full formula.

    Notice that the recipes give hints as to the nature of the ingredients and the possible results, so that the player can experiment.
    I would also do away with the explosions from using wrong ngredients. This should happen on a critical failure only.

    I am also thinking, perhaps some powerful elixirs should be tied to Law and Chaos. Learning about them, acquiring ingrediens, mixing them and using could be lawful/chaotic acts.
    For example, cutting up humanoids for ingredients might be chaotic. There could be an evil book filled with recipes for harmful potions (or beneficial potions, only easier to mix, using 'evil' ingredients such as human body parts, potions of raw chaos etc.) each read would be a chaotic act.

    SORTING the INGREDIENTS
    In order to put some order in the ingredients, i think they should be tagged somehow.

    For example: Parts of elemental creatures - tied to their respectve elements, Ingredients from strong creatures, tied to Strength, Eyes taken from creatures tied to PER, and so on. Some erbs tied to HEALING, other tied to POISON There should be a tag for every atribute, and every magical effect. And perhaps a few more.

    Potions should also be similarly categorized, the most basic division is HARMFUL and BENEFICIAL, for those which you imbibe, and those that you coat your weapon with/throw at -foo-.

    These tags should be fairly obvious, perhaps some books on this could be in game.

    These should also be rated with regards to the power of heir effect, for example:
    Fire Beetle gland, sulfur -> weak fire effect
    Hell Hound Tongue, Fire Lizard scales, Ruby -> moderate fire effect
    Fire Dragon Tongue, Fire Elemental Heart -> strong fire effect.

    It would then be used to randomize the recipes:
    Exploding potion => mix [random potion] with [moderate fire effect]


    I realize that at this point it may be getting a bit complex, and it may sound as if Alchemy starts to become an overpowered skill, however I believe in the scope of JADE, each existing ADOM skill should be greatly expanded, not just Alchemy.

  6. #6
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    I really liked alchemy in elder scrolls, although it had it's problems...

    For example, wander up to an alchemist supply shop, but all their ingredients, turn them all in to potions and sell them all back! Not only do you earn a fortune but you train the skill at the same time. Rather poor balancing if you ask me.

    I definitely think alchemy needs an overhaul for JADE and elder scrolls is a good place to start. More herbs, monster's organs, base metals etc all sounds bloody marvelous!

  7. #7
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    That sounds great. I really like how you'd also use body parts and minerals.

    If there are going to be diverse liquid types in JADE (see the river feature thread) the base of most potions could be clear water, swamp water, mud, sea water.

    I agree that alchemy shops would have to provide a more guaranteed (yet expensive) means for acquiring the more exotic ingredients.

    Finally, it would be good if there were a range of medical potions and salves to be made. Not just "healing potions" (add some HP) but potions that treat particular diseases, nausea, wounds. Perhaps the alchemist player type would be somewhat of an apothecary too, then, sharing some skills with healers (if the latter are not more mystically oriented).

    He could also just make potions to sell them dearly and buy an Ancardian ranch to party on.

  8. #8
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    I think what you all said would by far be too simple - after all, if its just mixing two or three things together, everyone could do it.

    Also, I didnt like the Elder Scrolls (ok, TES4, dont remember TES3) Alchemy system: again, too easy and not thought out very well. The "you know x of y effects, and these make it into your potion" is weak. If i *know* 2 of 4 effects, why should the other 2 effects *not* make it into the potion? stupid, if you ask me.

  9. #9

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    What about artifact recipes? Maybe you could find some kind of randomized artifact recipe that combined 3-4 random ingredients with one guaranteed drop from a powerful monster, to make an extremely powerful potion. The recipe would have to be complex enough that you would be unlikely to have stumbled upon it by chance.

  10. #10

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    Great Ideas! How about you guys are posting them in the JADE Project Management section?
    What a deliciously boring signature.

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