Scroll of Omnipotence...

[Elone]

Creator doesnt like code diving because he created a free and a huge and a hard game for past several years of his real life; and instead of playing to finish it, we try our hardest to cheat in it.

Creator knew that his game will be dissected by a large community, and everyone will share info and tips and exploits in between themselves. The thing that Creator did was to create an overly complex game with too many features and possibilities, in the way so that a GB is a neccessity. In other words, game was made suitable for a community, not single players. Guidebook is a good thingy, but Creator had to know that the GB writer cannot offer people observations and thoughts, but exact data. Which gets obtained from code diving. ADOM GB is already pretty-much complete, and available to people. It's unfair to ban it and remove it from The Internets, because people who literally know the whole GB (like me) will have a complete advantage over those newbies who potentially wont have access to GB anymore.

I took a look at a plenty of executables, and they're fun to look at, and that's how I sometimes satiate my programmer spirit. At times, exe can also be altered to gain benefites, but in games, we call that phenomenon 'cheating'. I have read somewhere that ADOM has all the textual data in plain text (go look, or dont. i dont care). One pretty interesting use for diving would be to alter the text to your needs (meaning, supressing the 'cursed' and 'blessed' messages, as they are already colourcoded in your inventory; also to suppress some overly long names and messages into something more readable) which actually sounds extremely tempting to me, since I play MUDs; in a MUD, you can usually colour any text into any colour you want, and substitute it with text of your choice, which always makes for an easier experience and less 'more' prompts and less eye strain.

Altering some of these messages is a minor neccessity, but altering dice is cheating. Do it at your own risk, and keep it private. If it makes the game nicer for you, go for it. But no one will want to hear about your heroic conquests, where your main equip was a mutated (+99,9d9+99) dagger, or where wands of wishing were made as common as wands of light.

Enjoy.

[Grey]

Also, where did TB say that he did not want discussion of old existing information to occur, _anywhere_ (as there is no right forum otherwise you would've mentioned what it was to be nice), not merely no more actual code diving activity?

He never stated such a thing. He'd have no control over anything like that anyway - freedom of speech etc. He's only stated that code-diving is to stop. Obviously it's still going on, but it's kinda rude to talk about how to code-dive or about new discoveries here. As for whatever's in the GB already, I can't see there being any problem talking about its contents - TB links to Andy's GB himself, so he's evidently fine with what's already there.

Finally, it's clear that the history keep some data as code-diving because they was originally got from code diving, but nobody have collected it by testing just because someone did it before from code-diving. A good example is the monster table, the numbers can be get from testing and probably would be more right or complete than by code diving. The immunities and special abilities can all be get by testing and often it's very very sample and just requires that someone collect data from testing.

Most of the ADOM info out there isn't from code-diving, but from real testing. If you ask me that's the only info that can be 100% trusted. Code-diving requires a lot of skill to do right, and amateurs attempting it can easily return a lot of dud information. It's not always obvious from the code what a value means and how it ends up affecting the game. Only with real experimentation can you properly see what effect different things have on the actual gameplay. Look at the GB's final score calculations for instance - I'm guessing these results must have come from code-diving, because it takes some very simple testing to show that it's mostly very wrong.

Also, I'm personally quite glad there's not too much code-dived info easily available about the game. It ruins the mystery of a lot of elements, and can make you too focussed on numbers rather than tactics and careful play (which for me is what ADOM is all about). I try my best these days to play without even glancing at the GB - you learn things better from real experience after all. (I'll admit I can never learn the bloody herb orders though - I always have to look those up.)

But historically code-diving got the information first and now newbies can't have it because of that? Sorry but that is highly not fair.

Sorry but I think you must be misunderstanding something here - no one's holding information back from anyone else. The Guidebook is sufficient for anyone to play by (and isn't even necessary). Any less scrupulous information can be achieved through Google.

also to suppress some overly long names and messages into something more readable) which actually sounds extremely tempting to me, since I play MUDs; in a MUD, you can usually colour any text into any colour you want, and substitute it with text of your choice, which always makes for an easier experience and less 'more' prompts and less eye strain.

You don't need to dissassemble the executable just to do that. ADOM Sage performs such functions through simply modifying the terminal input and output, and is customisable to boot.

[mike3]

He never stated such a thing. He'd have no control over anything like that anyway - freedom of speech etc. He's only stated that code-diving is to stop. Obviously it's still going on, but it's kinda rude to talk about how to code-dive or about new discoveries here. As for whatever's in the GB already, I can't see there being any problem talking about its contents - TB links to Andy's GB himself, so he's evidently fine with what's already there.

Most of the ADOM info out there isn't from code-diving, but from real testing. If you ask me that's the only info that can be 100% trusted. Code-diving requires a lot of skill to do right, and amateurs attempting it can easily return a lot of dud information. It's not always obvious from the code what a value means and how it ends up affecting the game. Only with real experimentation can you properly see what effect different things have on the actual gameplay. Look at the GB's final score calculations for instance - I'm guessing these results must have come from code-diving, because it takes some very simple testing to show that it's mostly very wrong.

So then, paradoxically, if it comes from code-diving it is less accurate than from hard observation, correct?

Also, I'm personally quite glad there's not too much code-dived info easily available about the game. It ruins the mystery of a lot of elements, and can make you too focussed on numbers rather than tactics and careful play (which for me is what ADOM is all about). I try my best these days to play without even glancing at the GB - you learn things better from real experience after all. (I'll admit I can never learn the bloody herb orders though - I always have to look those up.)

I look at GBs all the time and the game is still fun Even if I knew everything in the GBs by heart (Hah! like I could memorize that whole thing!), I still don't think it would take away from the fun. I've never actually won the game without genuine cheating (i.e. savescumming), even though I've read the GB so many times, simply because I just get killed off.

Sorry but I think you must be misunderstanding something here - no one's holding information back from anyone else. The Guidebook is sufficient for anyone to play by (and isn't even necessary). Any less scrupulous information can be achieved through Google.

But from your post I got the idea that you were saying TB explicitly did not want use of this preexisting knowledge already obtained from old code-diving, which I really wanted to hear a source for. You said:

I agree that this is not the right forum to discuss code-dived information. TB has explicitly stated to the ADOM community in the past that he doesn't want it happening, and it's simply rude to openly present such information here.

Which sounds just like what I thought: you are saying TB has explicitly stated he does not want "it" happening, which from the previous sentence is "discussion of code-dived information". If that's not what you meant, are you saying you misspoke? If it is what you meant, I would like to see the explicit post from TB. And furthermore, you said "this is not the right forum", but if TB has said no discussions on it ever, then there is logically no right forum so that would be a given!

[gut]

Doalag:
> That said, I admit it's not cool to see "old" senior,
> stating you no "code-diving reference" but they keep
> the nice references for them

Is it THAT hard to search a bit? If someone doesn't
provide a direct link to a file, then it is hording?
I am no internet wiz, but with a bit of google use, I
tend to find what I'm looking for quickly enough. If
someone has trouble searching things out, they could
spend a bit of time to increase their searching abilities.

I would provide a link to the best 'searchlore(s)' sight
out there, but the webmaster used to 'reverse engineer'
software *hint* *hint*. I don't think the guy is into
that anymore, but I haven't been there in a while, so I
don't know for sure. I'm not sure about this sight's
policy of linking to pages that could be associated with
reverse engineering, so you will have to search it
yourself. It's very easy to find.


mike3:
> you are saying TB has explicitly stated he does not
> want "it" happening, which from the previous sentence
> is "discussion of code-dived information"

I think 'it' means code-diving, not talking about
code-diving. At least that's the way that I read it.
It's clear enough to me, that TB has not forbidden
the discussion of code-diving on these forums. In
fact, I haven't seen a specific 'RULES' section
at all. Perhaps courtesy and respect are more
effective than rules anyway.

Perhaps we are in an 'experimental' phase of these
forums. Waiting to see if it is neccassary to have
to post a RULES section full of things like:

Do not provide links to ADOM code=dived info.
Do not provide links to reverse engineering websites.
Do not provide links to illegal files.
Do not verbally abuse each other.
Do not threaten murder upon one another.

Do we really need a section like that, strictly
enforced by forum moderators, or can we manage
to be respectful without it.

There used to be a great cheat program available,
but the author stopped providing it. I'm no historian,
but I think it was respect and courtesy, (not a
lawsuit) that was the decision-maker.


> I've never actually won the game without genuine
> cheating

It probably takes years of effort to do that. It is
a sometimes painful journey, but at the end, you
will be amazed by the amount of enjoyment you have
gotten, out of this FREE game. It is really a very
small 'thank you' to just talk about code-dived stuff
elsewhere.

[Doalag]

Ok I agree that if the link is suspect it's not cool to provide it here.

Otherwise you are doing a lot of noise for very little. I'm surprised the author care so much of this. Are you sure of this? don't you have any link to that? Is it just a preference or something really important?

He should really relax about that. Some people want do some code-diving? Nice those are interested by the game. Some people want play the game by using some info get by code-diving? Again nice, some other people get fun with the game. Who can decide how they'll enjoy the best the game? Themselves or the author? Seriously, I don't see the problem with code-diving and using information about it.

EDIT: Side note, paying a few bucks or not isn't a difference for me. And really money or free shouldn't have any link with respect. He he!

[Grey]

So then, paradoxically, if it comes from code-diving it is less accurate than from hard observation, correct?

Not necessarily less accurate, but not as trustworthy. You can't be sure that the info gained from code-diving has that effect unless you test it out in-game. For instance by code-diving you might find out that it takes, say, 70 livesacs to get a precrown. But testing it in the real game will give you a higher figure because of gradual piety degradation, or switching alignment, or all sorts of other factors. You can't be sure that what you get from code-diving is the full picture.

I look at GBs all the time and the game is still fun

Damn straight it is But personally I had more fun before I ever saw the Guidebook, and I was discovering things for myself. That was a much greater esnse of achievement then. I think if I could have a victory without consulting the Guidebook once it might add to the fun a bit (though it has its risks). I'm in a dilemna in my mind about what to do when JADE comes out - read spoilers or not? I imagine the lure of knowledge will draw me in to spoiling myself...

Which sounds just like what I thought: you are saying TB has explicitly stated he does not want "it" happening, which from the previous sentence is "discussion of code-dived information". If that's not what you meant, are you saying you misspoke? If it is what you meant, I would like to see the explicit post from TB. And furthermore, you said "this is not the right forum", but if TB has said no discussions on it ever, then there is logically no right forum so that would be a given!

By "it" I meant code-diving of course. It's my opinion that code-diving shouldn't be discussed either out of simple courtesy. I especially think that discussion here of code-diving can only put TB off developing JADE as fast as I'd like. Of course there are no forum rules, or moderators (TB isn't around enough to moderate properly), and personally I prefer it that way. There shouldn't be a forum rule saying "no code-diving discussion" - it should simply be an act of courtesy and respect of members than an enforced rule.

[Grey]

He should really relax about that. Some people want do some code-diving? Nice those are interested by the game. Some people want play the game by using some info get by code-diving? Again nice, some other people get fun with the game. Who can decide how they'll enjoy the best the game? Themselves or the author? Seriously, I don't see the problem with code-diving and using information about it.

The link was provided above by Dougy. One aspect of it is cheating of course (which can be done) but he has specifically said he doesn't like people finding out game mechanics through code-diving. To quote what Malte Helmert said directly:

"Thomas is also very much against disassembling the executable
to discover game mechanics and secrets. He referred to the section in
readme.1st where it is stated that the good effect of ADOM staying
closed source is "that ADOM will remain the most challenging and
mysterious of all roguelike games, simply because you just can't take a
look into the sources and find all the secrets right away once a new
version is released". "

I agree myself - I like the elements of mystery in ADOM. Things like the riddle of the weird tome excite me. Of course you may well disagree with his opinion on the game, but it's still his wishes and I feel that should be respected.

Personally I think if people want to code-dive in private, that's fine, but they shouldn't release their discoveries publicly. That way (almost) everyone's happy.

[Doalag]

Well second hand reports are always highly suspect (and worse we have here a third hand report). In my country after a president change in the past some people didn't get welcomed anymore to some television. This same president said some time after to one of those 'unwelcomed' people : "The strongest censorship is coming from those who think to know what the 'king' wants".

A second point is that some code-diving data could be get by testing but as veteran have already the data they don't bother collect it through testing, nice example is the monsters table.

Third point, about playing with a walkthrough/guide or not, I never play a game with a walkthrough. I always give it a chance without any help and put some time solving the problems, and usually prefer asking some questions on forums. I gave Adom its chance, but when I saw the first answer I got, it became very fast obvious that the game hadn't enough hints for me, so I continue a little with guidebook and found it working.

Fourthly, in no way, freeware or not, great game or less great, long or short, you'll make me admit any player cannot decide by himself what's the best for him, using a guidebook or not, using some code-diving info or not, using help on forums or not.

[Grey]

Well second hand reports are always highly suspect (and worse we have here a third hand report).

Why don't you read the report yourself then? It's very clear on matters. Malte (a long-standing and trusted member of the ADOM community, who was by far and beyond one of the biggest contributors to the Guidebook) had a long phone conversation with Thomas, and communicated his abundantly clear wishes, which TB himself replied to in the same thread. It convinced the likes of Vladimir, inventor of ADOMBot and by far the best code-diver ADOM has ever seen, to hang up his tools. There aren't exactly many grey areas here.

Fourthly, in no way, freeware or not, great game or less great, long or short, you'll make me admit any player cannot decide by himself what's the best for him, using a guidebook or not, using some code-diving info or not, using help on forums or not.

And I don't think anyone has ever said that either.

[Doalag]

Mmm when reading again the last elone post I'm starting suspecting that this "famous" monster list "get from code-diving" is just the unauthorized adom guidebook, a link I have since a long time!

Honestly, I feel I get more from the adom data monsters list, also interesting is the Markku Rikola monsters list, I quoted some information not seen in other lists.