Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: ADOM and the Angband Effect

  1. #1

    Default ADOM and the Angband Effect

    The view of an outsider:

    The frequently alluded-to "Angband effect" which might occur in the event of releasing the ADOM source - resulting in many and possibly mediocre variants - fails to take into account the many advantages of the Angband model of development.

    1. It is transparent: through the SVN players are kept abreast of current developments and can comment upon them, make suggestions, and contribute to further development.

    2. It is constant: new versions are constantly released, resulting in continual improvements, both to UI and gameplay. At the very least, bugs are ironed out instead of being left to stew for years and years and years.

    3. It is diverse: through variants, new ideas are generated, which can be adopted and/or modified by anyone. This may be seen as an unnecessary virtue for Mr. Biskup, his palette of ideas being so inspired (and it is). But anyone may benefit from a fresh perspective.

    Some vicarious outrage:
    1. JADE/ADOM development is obviously not a high priority for TB. If it were, at the very least a bugfix would have been released at some point in the last 8 years.

    2. It is deplorable that TB has not made a decision concerning the source-code of ADOM. This latest tease of creating a separate forum is a case in point. It won't result in a decision. So I implore: either release the code, declare ADOM dead, or begin private development anew. It doesn't matter so much what choice is made:

    *Make a choice.*

    Stringing along loyal fans for all these years with half-promises and eternally broken deadlines is nothing short of despicable. They put up with it because ADOM is a great game, and they still believe that if they keep TB happy with flattery and heroic levels of understanding, somehow development will start up again. He is humiliating them.

    This post will draw a lot of criticism, clearly. It will be objected that TB made ADOM for free, that it's a great game, that he owes us nothing, that we should be grateful, most of which is true. But I say that TB's behavior since the last release of ADOM has long since dried up what gratitude his fans owe.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Esslingen, Germany
    Posts
    3,973

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    This post will draw a lot of criticism, clearly. It will be objected that TB made ADOM for free, that it's a great game, that he owes us nothing, that we should be grateful, most of which is true.
    No shit, Sherlock.

    I'm not sure what else to reply with, after you've already said it all yourself.

    Let me put it this way: Apparently you have *no* idea what kind of accomplishment ADOM is. It's one of the damn best roguelikes ever, created ALONE, in a CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS (maybe not the last part). Years upon years of blood, sweat and tears have gone into this, and he never asked for anything but a friggin' postcard in return.

    He's got wife and kids. He's head of an IT company. By all measures of reasonableness, it's practically lunacy for him to still devote any of his time developing roguelike games.

    It's his goddamn right to take his time.
    ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!

    Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    5,014

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    The view of an outsider:
    And a wannabe troll by the looks of things. Your views on releasing the source and the Angband effect are welcome, but there's no need for your ridiculous insults or your presumptions of the rest of the ADOM community. Most people are fully aware that there will likely never be another version of ADOM. We half-believe there might be JADE at some point, but we're not hanging on the edges of our seats for it. We're here because we enjoy ADOM, bugs and all, and even if there's no new version we'll be quite happy to play the current one for years to come.
    Platinum Edition ADOMer
    http://gamesofgrey.com - check out my roguelikes!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    199

    Default

    Many people here are zealously protective of ADOM/TB, and so I suspect your comments won't be received warmly by those who reply after me.

    However, though your post was unquestionably provocative (and no doubt intended to be), I personally didn't believe it to be either insulting or the work of a troll. It's an opinion; obviously a contentious one, but not an unjustifiable one.

    I had trouble with that word 'insulting', because I felt that it was and it wasn't at the same time. I finally realised that it only felt insulting to me in context]. Most references to TB on the forum are extremely flattering, as you say. Though I wouldn't expect such a post to get an overly hostile reaction on many other development forums (I'm not saying it wouldn't be countered and disagreed with, of course), before I'd even finished reading it I knew it would receive one here.

    I can't help but think of this group as something as a cult at times, just in its little ways. The ever-persisting faith in the coming of JADE, the spirited defence against those outside the group who wish unspecified harm (such as making ADOM variants), and terms like 'The Creator' - well, it strikes associations in my head, anyway.


    And last thing, purely because self-contradictions annoy me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey
    Your views on releasing the source and the Angband effect are welcome, but there's no need for your ridiculous insults or your presumptions of the rest of the ADOM community. Most people are fully aware that there will likely never be another version of ADOM. We half-believe there might be JADE at some point, but we're not hanging on the edges of our seats for it.
    Surely your latter two sentences are themselves presumptions of the rest of the ADOM community, just as much as The Outsider's post was?

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    And a wannabe troll by the looks of things.
    I truly was not attempting to troll, although I can't say I'm surprised that that was the effect. I felt it needed to be said. I don't plan on replying any further.

    I believe ADOM to be a masterpiece, or at least something very near one. Otherwise I wouldn't bother myself with this business. Clearly there's room for improvement - improvement that isn't forthcoming - which is frustrating, and not a little sad, given the remarkable potential.

    As Silfir points out, TB has the right to develop or not, spending as much time as he likes on the project he created and shaped single-handedly. He has the right to do nothing at all (which I think I might actually prefer to the status quo). He has the right to do exactly what he's doing at present: receiving praise and doing the barest minimum to continue receiving it. That may or may not be a fair assessment of his motivations, but it's a truthful representation of the reality.

    Your views on releasing the source and the Angband effect are welcome, but there's no need for your ridiculous insults or your presumptions of the rest of the ADOM community. Most people are fully aware that there will likely never be another version of ADOM. We half-believe there might be JADE at some point, but we're not hanging on the edges of our seats for it. We're here because we enjoy ADOM, bugs and all, and even if there's no new version we'll be quite happy to play the current one for years to come.
    I shouldn't have presumed to speak for the ADOM community, but I think it is being wronged by its leader. I stand by my harsh assessment, which is aimed entirely at TB. He receives remarkable loyalty from this community and does not deserve it. My problem is not so much that he chooses not to develop or not to release the source, but that he has led everyone on for so long without committing to one side or the other. The subtitle for this forum section reads: "For all discussions concerning a release model and community structure for the ADOM source code... if it ever is going to happen." What is one to do with that? If the community is happy with TB's non-committal disregard for the well-being of his fans, then there is little left to be said.

    This brings me back to the Angband model, which you were right to chide me for departing from. It struck me as incredible that TB brought it up as a cautionary tale, when it is the very thing that would serve ADOM best. When fans come together with input that is taken seriously by a developer, they are afforded more dignity as enfranchised *members* of the game community, which in turn thrives, and the game benefits enormously as a consequence. What is so objectionable to me is that TB constantly acts for input that he doesn't seriously intend to put to any use. He's just throwing us bones. It's insulting.

    As a result ADOM has a dwindling community, which is becoming increasingly more defensive and resigned. TB may or may not care, and I suppose that's all that really matters, and that's the problem.

    Again, I apologize for causing offense to anyone save TB. The futility I feel in writing this post is palpable, and sadly that, not ADOM, is for me the legacy of Thomas Biskup. Please prove me wrong.
    Last edited by The Outsider; 02-03-2009 at 03:40 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Moreno Valley, CA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    I stand by my harsh assessment, which is aimed entirely at TB. He receives remarkable loyalty from this community and does not deserve it. My problem is not so much that he chooses not to develop or not to release the source, but that he has led everyone on for so long without committing to one side or the other.
    BS. Just complete, total, unadulterated BS.

    First off, TB deserves the loyalty. ADOM is the shining example of what a roguelike can be. He deserves every bit of praise and loyalty he gets, and more.

    Secondly, he has committed. For years on end, he has said, "No, it won't be open source. Ever."

    That's committment. It's committment that you probably disagree with, but you can't say that he's been wishy-washy on this. It's only recently that he's hinted at the possibility. It's obviously a huge decision for him, so he decided to create this forum to get more feedback. And you insult him, calling him deplorable for it? Seriously, you're an ass.
    The door suddenly falls in your direction! You are not nimble enough to evade the door. Your anvil is crunched!

    http://kandrewsmith.blogspot.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    5,014

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant
    Surely your latter two sentences are themselves presumptions of the rest of the ADOM community, just as much as The Outsider's post was?
    Heh, maybe, but at least I'm an insider And I said "most", not all. My statement was general enough that I think it's fairly accurate, at least based on my experiences here.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    I shouldn't have presumed to speak for the ADOM community, but I think it is being wronged by its leader. I stand by my harsh assessment, which is aimed entirely at TB.
    I think you have a weird idea of "leader" here. TB has never been particularly involved with the fanbase of the game. The blog and forums are both very recent, and he's made a few dozen posts at most. Before that he wasn't active on other ADOM forums or RGRA, and his only service to the fans was a web-site post once a year or so. This isn't a criticism though, it's quite what I'd expect. TB has no duty to us beyond what he's already done. We have the game, we play it, we love it. Nothing more is necessary. Whatever ideas you have about the fans needing regular releases are perhaps from your experience with other roguelikes, which are quite different in terms of both developer and community.

    My main annoyance with your post was that you presume to know the community so well, and yet your statements indicate quite the opposite. Insult TB as you wish - I think it's silly, but you're welcome to do it, especially if you can back up your points. But honestly take a bit more time to think before telling a whole forum that they should feel humiliated by something you see differently.

    Anyway, back to the more interesting topic of the post...

    This brings me back to the Angband model, which you were right to chide me for departing from. It struck me as incredible that TB brought it up as a cautionary tale, when it is the very thing that would serve ADOM best.
    Many would disagree, especially ADOM fans that enjoy the game for its central theme and vision (something lacking from Nethack and many *bands). The Angband effect is often bandied about as a negative term. I'm sure Angband fans think differently of course... But ADOM especially would benefit little from it, in my opinion. Whilst some good games have come from the Angband variations (generally ones that depart from the original significantly) I can't see anything more than cheap rip-offs stemming from ADOM variations, or simply "ADOM Plus" games with extra features of dubious worth. ADOM's a fairly complete game as it is, and I don't see much benefitting it other than minor interface improvements and some bug fixes.

    Of course I said in another thread that I would like to see ADOM open source, and that the threat of variants shouldn't put TB off. Personally I think there's little chance of any variations of note - there simply isn't the same enthusiasm for roguelike variants as there used to be. Those who want to make roguelikes usually make their own instead, and want to use newer languages like Python or Ruby. When was the last new *band variant for instance? Besides, from TB's account it takes him hours to do tiny things with ADOM's spaghetti code - doesn't sound as palatable to amateur coders that want to muck around a bit, which is what really spurred on the Angband tree.
    Platinum Edition ADOMer
    http://gamesofgrey.com - check out my roguelikes!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    599

    Default

    While variants may be attractive in their own ways, and can be interesting if someone puts effort into a really good storyline plus quests, I wouldnt mind seeing them... as long as they are not the cheap ripoffs with dubious qualities. But I am more concerned about this which we all seem to want. Buxfixes and upgraded interface. What worries me, are the variants of these fixes. Several developers can make several good improvements, but the actual exe can only really be patched by one person. However, I'm not worried too much yet... In fact, we dont have the source yet to begin with. But I'm sure that if we get one, things will work out.

    I'm not siding with Outsider, instead this is a purely logical thing...
    As possible as it is that TB will release a source, it's also possible that we are a bit too early with our hopes. Either TB is only teasing us... Or, he is still only mildly considering the idea or releasing the source to us. Either way, can certain people please stop speaking as if we already got the source code?

    P.S. I'm not saying that we shouldnt talk about the Source. If TB likes/dislikes what he hears, that may make him at least a bit closer to the actual decision. But talking about the Source as if we owned it already...
    ▼ All their fault. ▼

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 3AM View Post
    BS. Just complete, total, unadulterated BS.

    First off, TB deserves the loyalty. ADOM is the shining example of what a roguelike can be. He deserves every bit of praise and loyalty he gets, and more.

    Secondly, he has committed. For years on end, he has said, "No, it won't be open source. Ever."

    That's committment. It's committment that you probably disagree with, but you can't say that he's been wishy-washy on this. It's only recently that he's hinted at the possibility. It's obviously a huge decision for him, so he decided to create this forum to get more feedback. And you insult him, calling him deplorable for it? Seriously, you're an ass.
    I'm trying to avoid getting into this argument, as it seems more bother than it's worth (and unlikely to change anyone's opinion), but I will point out that your above comment is misleading.

    Up to at least May 1998, Thomas Biskup had said he would release the ADOM source code once which he'd finished version 1.0. I don't know at what point specifically he stated that he wasn't releasing it, but for the majority of ADOM's active development, the fanbase was led to believe the code would be released (http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/featu...ews/adom.shtml).

    As an aside though, I am surprised at The Outsider's post in one regard; if he believes, as I understood his post to imply, that Mr. Biskup hints at the possibility of source code release (and JADE release, by extension of this idea) to gain praise and attention - why give it to him? I don't doubt the ADOM source code would be a useful educational tool, and the prospect of some long-needed bugfixes is a welcome one ('The Titan/ACW/anything decides to fight to the death in a blind rage! You are hit! You die.'), but it won't change the world; from everything that's been said about the source and its 'spaghetti' nature, it seems unlikely to dramatically influence the future development of Roguelikes in any significant way.

    My point: it's really not worth arguing about.
    Last edited by Covenant; 02-05-2009 at 02:09 AM. Reason: Forgot to include link

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Moreno Valley, CA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Covenant View Post
    Up to at least May 1998, Thomas Biskup had said he would release the ADOM source code once which he'd finished version 1.0.
    My mistake. That was before I discovered ADOM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •