ADOM tutorial

[Silfir]

"The early game is impossible for wizards, here's a shortcut"

[gut]

> "you need to change this internal game file or you won't be able to play properly"?

I didn't impliment the 100 deaths rule, I just account for it.

> Also, when I first started ADOM, my characters were always human
> paladins. Following your guide, however, I seem to be constantly
> getting killed

Huh? You followed a wiz guide while using a paladin? I suppose that
would work quite nicely actually. As long as a PC has access to a bolt
spell, BUGWIL should be an efficient use for it.

> What am I doing wrong?

That's what *I* was asking. I can't really concieve of someone not being
able to clear most of BUGWIL with a guide, some demos, and a few tries
to get the hang of it. Have any newbies posted something on the forums
of which I'm unaware? Where they say something like " Hey gut, I read
your wiz guide, and still can't make it through BUGWIL."

In fact, to be honest, near half of the YAFV posts I see in the forum these
days quote gray elven wizards as the PC that did it for them. In addition,
some even quote my original wiz guide as being help and inspiration to
get that win. It was only after hearing some posts about how hard it was
to get them off the ground that I realized I prolly made a goof in the wiz
guide. I shouldn't have advised a 'normal' start, because that's certainly
not how *I* do it. Nothing beats BUGWIL for a power start. Nothing beats
gray elven wizards for giving a player the best chance at a victory. Add
restrictions and grinding later if you wish, but play an interesting game
and get a victory first!

> "The early game is impossible for wizards,

Then why did you and everyone else rate wizards so very highly for
your ADOMpossible challenge rankings? The same reason I didn't even
bother to try for them, because everyone knows they are best : )

> here's a shortcut"

If a game with action and rapid character developement isn't for you, you
are more than welcome to play as grindingly as you wish. Have fun with
your farmer on level 1 of the village dungeon. A guide that would allow
newbies a reasonable chance at victory would invariably involve some
type of grinding. The difference is, I cast off hours of farming/smithing/
pickpocketing/gremlin genocide/Si carrying in exchange for 10 minutes in
BUGWIL and 10 minutes in the ID, which is actually fun.

Having said all that, I got a couple more pages up. I've decided to continue
commenting what I have : )

[Silfir]

>Nothing beats BUGWIL for a power start. Nothing beats
>gray elven wizards for giving a player the best chance at a victory. Add
>restrictions and grinding later if you wish, but play an interesting game
>and get a victory first!

You are making several assumptions here.

a) The player has nothing against a power start using a location that is meant for higher level characters and contains a large amount of monsters that can kill him instantly, possibly only because you previously modified an in-game file.
b) The player wants to play a gray elven wizard, or a similarly powerful spellcaster.
c) Only the mid- to lategame is interesting.
d) Getting a victory is the first goal you have to reach before you are allowed to learn to play the game your way.

It's not about the validity of these assumptions, it's that you're making them in the first place.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

A guide that would allow
newbies a reasonable chance at victory would invariably involve some type of grinding.

The thing is, who says that newbies need "a reasonable chance at victory"?

I think one of the first things that anyone who wants to play roguelikes should learn is what they use as a motto for Dwarf Fortress: "Losing Is Fun".

The exciting thing about roguelikes (IMO at least) is being in danger, learning things by dying and by losing, and noting them to live longer next time... until *eventually* you win. Anyone who wants to win from the get go should not be playing a roguelike, they probably should be playing Oblivion or something like that instead.

[JellySlayer]

> "you need to change this internal game file or you won't be able to play properly"?

I didn't impliment the 100 deaths rule, I just account for it.

> Also, when I first started ADOM, my characters were always human
> paladins. Following your guide, however, I seem to be constantly
> getting killed

Huh? You followed a wiz guide while using a paladin? I suppose that
would work quite nicely actually. As long as a PC has access to a bolt
spell, BUGWIL should be an efficient use for it.

But this isn't a wizard guide, it's an "ADOM tutorial"! Why should it matter what class I choose if I just want to play ADOM?

That's what *I* was asking. I can't really concieve of someone not being
able to clear most of BUGWIL with a guide, some demos, and a few tries
to get the hang of it. Have any newbies posted something on the forums
of which I'm unaware? Where they say something like " Hey gut, I read
your wiz guide, and still can't make it through BUGWIL."

Sorry, where did you say this was a wizard guide again? Why can't my hypothetical newbie play his human paladin?

Add restrictions and grinding later if you wish, but play an interesting game
and get a victory first!

Playing a non-wizard is a restriction now?

10 minutes in the ID, which is actually fun.

Surely you jest.

[gut]

> But this isn't a wizard guide, it's an "ADOM tutorial"!

The PC I chose for the tutorial is a wizard. If you want
to follow along with a troll farmer, be my guest.

>Sorry, where did you say this was a wizard guide again?

Sorry, I thought it to be common sense that one would
follow a guide that uses a wizard... with a WIZARD.

> Playing a non-wizard is a restriction now?

Yes, you've really hit the nail on the head with that one.
There are about a dozen guides out now, most have been out
for about a year. Wouldn't you agree? Now why do you suppose
that ~half of all 'Yet Another First Victory' posts are of
grey elven wizards? Coincidence? You can say non-wizards are
more powerful if you want, I will continue to make sense.

> Surely you jest.

Stairhopping gets dull when one does it for a long time,
but so does anything else. Seriously, ten minutes in the ID
is all one needs to find a blinkie, and it is not boring.


>who says that newbies need "a reasonable chance at victory"?

I say that if they read my guide they will get one, not that
they need one. If they don't want one, then don't read it.

> "Losing Is Fun".

There is plenty of that in ADOM for all of us. I die 100 times
more often than not. Few people stop playing ADOM because they
were winning too much, and just couldn't make any progress
toward losing, no matter how hard they tried.

> exciting thing about roguelikes (IMO at least) is being in danger,

Then enter the ToEF's with a PC that has less than 100 HP's.
That's plenty dangerous. Kill some shopkeepers, that's kinda
dangerous too. Now for Silfir's nonsense:

>>Nothing beats BUGWIL for a power start. Nothing beats
>>gray elven wizards for giving a player the best chance at a victory. Add
>>restrictions and grinding later if you wish, but play an interesting game
>>and get a victory first!

>You are making several assumptions here.

No I most certainly am not. I meant what I said, and will say it again.
Nothing beats BUGWIL for a power start. If you know of a better start, for
ANY PC, then tell it. If one wants to play a melee PC, they give up an early
visit to BUGWIL. I'm not assuming it, I'm stating it as an irrefutable fact.

>a) The player has nothing against a power start

Then don't do BUGWIL, duh. Players don't need me to spell out for them, "Hey
everybody! If you don't like power starts, don't read my strategy guide!" That's common sense.

> using a location that is meant for higher level characters

I'm glad *you* know for whom it was 'meant'. I must have missed that somewhere
along in the versions. I remember when the bugs were granted the 'see invis'
intrinsic to make it more difficult, and it seems to me that if TB shared
your vehemence that it was 'meant' only for high level PC's, he would
have allowed them to 'shrug off bolts' at the same time.

> and contains a large amount of monsters that can kill him instantly,

Do players need me to spell that out for them as well? Or just you. OK, for
the record "If you are afraid of being killed, you will not have access to
the biggest power start in the entire game of ADOM!" There, happy?

> possibly only because you previously modified an in-game file.

I am supposing you meant 'possible'. No, it is not possible ONLY because
you modified a file. BUGWIL used to be accessable after only 3 PC's died,
then it went to 100. It is quite possible to just kill 100 PC's if the player
wants to scum for an hour, but this guide is not written for those who
want to scum for an hour. It is written for those who want to play to win, now.

>The player wants to play a gray elven wizard, or a similarly powerful spellcaster.

Absolute nonsense. If a player doesn't want to play a spellcaster or wiz, then
don't. Just don't try to pretend that the ability to do BUGWIL at exp. level 1
doesn't give archers and wizzies a BIG advantage over melee guys. It does.

c) Only the mid- to lategame is interesting.

Never said that. I do early game all the time, but don't try to pretend that
the puppy cave is a power start.

> d) Getting a victory is the first goal you have to reach before you are
> allowed to learn to play the game your way.

This is by far the most irritating of all the jibberish you typed. On the
issue of people being 'allowed' to play the game their own way, I think I'm
being quite conducive to 'allowance' by posting a guide for players to read
if they choose. By stark contrast to a-certain-German-who-shall-remain-nameless
that never misses an opportunity to shout things like "If one uses the ID,
that's scumming! If one smiths, that's scumming! If one precrowns, that's
scumming!" Not everyone in the world worships the idea of repetitive monster
killing in the cavernous levels of the tomb of the high kings. Indeed, by
the definition of scumming, that is possibly the most scummy tactic possible.
Spending 3 hours trying to get exp. levels and/or items is much worse than
10 minutes.

>It's not about the validity of these assumptions, it's that you're making
> them in the first place.

I assume that if a person reads a wizard guide THAT IS FOCUSED ON HELPING A
STRUGLING PLAYER GET A WIN, that they would be open-minded about learning
effective tactics and strategies for doing just that. Read your own words
and see if they even make sense to you.

[gut]

On a somewhat more pleasant note, I have posted
all pages now, and have only the comments left to
finish. Of course that's about 800 screenshots worth
of comments, so it'll be a while...

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I say that if they read my guide they will get one, not that they need one. If they don't want one, then don't read it.

Well, I think you could make that clearer, perhaps by calling it the ADOM Powergaming Tutorial for Newbies, or the ADOM Way to your First Win, or something like that.

It's not that I think that your tutorial is not useful, I'm sure it will be very helpful for some people. I just say that it's not good for every newbie.

[Laukku]

I think that going to BUGWIL is a bit advanced for people who just want to know HOW to play ADOM... after all, there is a reason why 100 character deaths are required for entering. :P Telling newbies to go straight to the bug temple implies that it is the proper way to play the game - you should emphasize a bit more that it's a quick and dirty way to gain levels for impatient players like you :P. Or perhaps you should make the BUGWIL part of the tutorial some sort of a separate "bonus" optional tactic. Also, editing a file and abusing a game location meant to be difficult is a bit cheating IMO.

Looking at your tutorial, I see that you also advise players to stairhop to get a blinkie corpse, and how to raid Darkforge... that's not a newbie guide, that's a spoily scumming/exploitation guide.

EDIT: What Al-Khwarizmi said.

[Silfir]

We don't particularly take offense at you using the wizard for the tutorial, but making this tutorial all about tactics that only work with wizards or other spellcasters. Like Al-Khwarizmi said, it's an ADOM Wizard Powergaming Tutorial.