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Thread: global warming is a hoax

  1. #71
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    If you can access it, this paper offers a nice overview of the subject. The idea is essentially based off of the claim that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Crutzen
    In the stratosphere, chemical and micro-physical
    processes convertSO2 into sub-micrometer sulfate particles. This has been observed
    in volcanic eruptions e.g., Mount Pinatubo in June, 1991, which injected some 10
    Tg S, initially as SO2, into the tropical stratosphere (Wilson et al., 1993; Bluth et al.,
    1992). In this case enhanced reflection of solar radiation to space by the particles
    cooled the earth?s surface on average by 0.5 ◦C in the year following the eruption
    (Lacis and Mishchenko, 1995). Although climate cooling by sulfate aerosols also
    occurs in the troposphere (e.g., Ramaswamy et al., 2001), the great advantage of
    placing reflective particles in the stratosphere is their long residence time of about
    1?2 years, compared to a week in the troposphere. Thus, much less sulfur, only a
    few percent, would be required in the stratosphere to achieve similar cooling as the
    tropospheric sulfate aerosol (e.g., Dickinson, 1996; Schneider, 1996; NAS, 1992;
    Stern, 2005). This would make it possible to reduce air pollution near the ground,
    improve ecological conditions and reduce the concomitant climate warming. The
    main issue with the albedo modification method is whether it is environmentally
    safe, without significant side effects.
    (emphasis mine)

    For completeness' sake (or if the article is unavailable), I note that this paper is arguging that we might wish to add the sulfur to the upper atmosphere to compensate for the effect of our current efforts to reduce it from the lower atmosphere, an effect which will otherwise increase solar flux by ~0.10% per year, and is estimated would, alone, lead to a net 0.8K increase in global temperature. His estimate is that this would require about ~2% of the current global current SO2, and pegs the cost at a not-insubstantial $25-50 billion per year, although that claim is apparently based on 1992 technology.

    The wikipedia article on stratospheric sulfur aerosols discusses the topic in marginal detail.
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  2. #72
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    Whatever happend to those nice CO2 drinking machines
    called trees? I've heard that the world can compensate for
    increased warmth and CO2 with increased vegetation
    growth. Problem is, now trees are being reduced at the
    same time as CO2 is increasing. I'd be much happier
    funding reforestation programs as opposed to emmision
    reduction programs. Firstly, I believe they would actually
    work, and if they don't, well, at least we get the trees.

    EDIT: I was unable to find it, but I have seen a satellite
    photo of borders between certain countries that really
    puts this into perspective. Very green country on one
    side, a very brown one on the other. The side that
    deforests their land too much pays for it.
    Last edited by gut; 07-05-2010 at 11:01 PM.
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  3. #73
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    hmmmm, while I think that sulfur method might principally be working - the side effects in the long term may be devastating - Do You know the term "Waldsterben" ? One of the reasons for it is acidly rain...

    At the moment for me the most practical geo engeneering method with the least side effects is simply planting trees! That doesn't push the carbon out of the bio cycle but at least most of the time out of the air - at least if you doesn't fire them instantly afterwards and it's also good albedo-wise. There are a lot of places where historically should be more trees that should be reforested (northern mongolia, around the mediterrean sea, ... )

    EDIT - gut had the guts to present the same idea earlier
    Last edited by Nobbse; 07-05-2010 at 11:00 PM. Reason: gut had the guts to present the same idea earlier ;)

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    Whatever happend to those nice CO2 drinking machines
    called trees? I've heard that the world can compensate for
    increased warmth and CO2 with increased vegetation
    growth. Problem is, now trees are being reduced at the
    same time as CO2 is increasing. I'd be much happier
    funding reforestation programs as opposed to emmision
    reduction programs. Firstly, I believe they would actually
    work, and if they don't, well, at least we get the trees.
    You're forgetting one thing : trees have high albedo (capacity to keep heat instead of reflecting it). Therfore, planting trees would be useful only near the equator (which is mostly saharian belt) or if you planted WHITE kinds of trees. which is probably not what you were thinking about.
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  5. #75
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    > trees have high albedo (capacity to keep heat instead of reflecting it).

    So places that have lots of trees are hotter because of them? Science tell
    you that, did it? Prolly did. I don't believe it, not for 1 second. Trees cool,
    not heat.
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JellySlayer View Post
    More to the point, something like 20% of the world's fossil fuels go to making fertilizers to maintain food production. That latter point is probably actually a much more serious short term problem that needs fixing than global warming.
    the real solution to pollution is a change in diet.
    http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm


    and why did everyone forget about acid rain? we've got dead lakes up the wazoo here in NY
    http://www.adirondacklakessurvey.org/bigmoosefront.html

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    > trees have high albedo (capacity to keep heat instead of reflecting it).

    So places that have lots of trees are hotter because of them? Science tell
    you that, did it? Prolly did. I don't believe it, not for 1 second. Trees cool,
    not heat.
    you have obviously never been in a rainforest. the shade is nice but they make it freaking humid as crap

  8. #78
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    My property has many black walnut trees, some dating to over
    100 years old, I seldom curse their heating ways as I walk under
    them in the summer. All those times I walk across treeless
    expanses and feel overheated, I'll just be glad there are none of
    those nasty heat producing trees around, making things so much
    worse.

    EDIT: most rainforests tend to be around the equator, no? Maybe
    that has something to do with the temperature? I do believe
    deserts fare a bit worse than rain forests in the 'supporting-life'
    aspect.
    Last edited by gut; 07-06-2010 at 06:56 AM.
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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by gut View Post
    My property has many black walnut trees, some dating to over
    100 years old, I seldom curse their heating ways as I walk UNDER
    them in the summer.
    They absorb the heat. If you were to walk IN them (whihc you can't, unless you tweak some quantic physics laws) you would feel their bad effect over heat retransmission.
    And by the way, i switched the places where there should and should not be tree ... sorry.
    As for deserrts... they don't absorb CO2, but they reflect nearly all the heat back up. That's why many desert inhabitants live underground.
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  10. #80
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    I absolutely appreciate that we have an interesting discussion so far instead of a flamewar! I still have to do some research about the statements about tree albedo because they seem somehow counterintuitive. But it's probably more complicated anyway, depending on what the ground is and whether we are talking about coniferous forest or deciduous forest. It gets even more complicated as there seem to be a dependency between how much carbon can be absorbed and how much water is available, here are some of the recent papers:

    http://www.sciencemag.org/sciencexpress/recent.dtl

    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...cience.1189587

    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...cience.1184984

    And then You also have to take another side effect in account - the hydrology system! Clouds are one of the most important factors for the albedo - and a forested territory surely has another influence on cloud building than a not forested territory has (because of the ability to buffer water). So these indirect effects might have a greater effect on the albedo of the earth than the albedo of the trees itself. Now it's 40 years ago we were on the moon, but science still has to do a lot of homework about what is going on on earth...



    ... Thomas Biskup should invent an albedo system in JADE

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