"Lacking a computer science degree" does not equal "total idiot".
Yes!
I'm not sure.
No!
Only if it's available for the iPhone too.
"Lacking a computer science degree" does not equal "total idiot".
ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!
Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.
If you administer a computer and you're an idiot (you could even have a computer science degree and still be one), you fall into the category of people I just defined.
I said it before, and I'll say it again. If I knew scripture like you, I'd prolly be an athiest too.. -gut
/l、
(゚、 。 7
l、 ~ヽ
じしf_, )ノ
Oh, well, thats a problem right there, because Ubuntu ships a lot of those large programs, and Windows doesnt. These take a lot of space on that CD, I guess. But all you need to run it is included on the CD.
So does Windows: last time I checked the first thing you do with your new Windows install is "activate" it (let it phone home so that MS knows its out there).
What is the point then? It is a beginner distro, and the vendor seems to think that such an autoupdater that shuts up and just gets the job done is perfect... for beginners. I agree, you disagree. Who's right?
Which you'll have to activate before you can even use it. The net effect is the same.
I think it makes sense; the packages on the CD can't be the absolutely newest packages, because they have to freeze some time before they release that CD, so that they can guarantee that its stable. Every software vendor does it that way. (RTM version must be able to *run* standalone without any updates. And it does.)
Also, would you prefer not to get so much updates, and have more older versions? Try Debian/stable (I use that on my server because its rock solid. You get a new release every few years, and apart of that only security updates, only a few each week). Granted, they are a bit extreme about it, sometimes the version they ship are several years old (+ new security fixes). One way to look at Ubuntu is as a fork of Debian with the aim of bringing more up-to-date packages to the user.
Well that behaviour is a bit weird.
Anyway, as long as you are not going back to Windows, fine. I think I get the impression that you are not really part of Ubuntus target audience, so maybe you should try another distro. Still, what you just described sounds like a bug to me or something.
Thats optional as far as I see. As long as that is the case, I dont see where the problem is.
Now if it was "register now with some 3rd party and get the awesome XY toolbar for your browser" I'd see your point.
I have never used Mandriva myself and so can't really comment on it. (I've only used OpenSUSE, Ubuntu/Kubuntu, Gentoo, Arch Linux and Debian, and right now I use Arch for desktops and Debian for servers).
I'd try opening it in the console. Just like any other console program, it just dumps its output to stdout and gets input from stdin, which are of course not shown if you just doubleclick on it. Granted, that might be a bit confusing for beginners, but at least to me it makes perfect sense.
(Who plays console games these days? Aside from us, of course...)
Because thats a windows-only program, as it says at the home page (InfraRecorder is a free CD/DVD burning solution for Microsoft Windows. ). If I were you I'd try a linux program. Look in your start menu.
Well at least in linux there is only one central updater, programs don't have permission (yes, that is enforced by the kernel, users basically dont have write permissions outside of their home directory) to auto-update themself, so theres only one auto updater you need to look after. (Oh and you can uninstall programs cleanly. Isnt that nice?)
Well better than if it isnt even labeled (see Windows, which is, as far as I recall, known to send SOMETHING to MS behind users back. And I dont mean the stuff that is sent during product activation.)
But I havent ever experienced any of what you describe. I mean, yes, theres this auto updater, but I am relatively sure that it's always asked me before it began updating or tried to send some other info to the developers. (Crash reports, for example. Always optional. Windows has that button too, you know?)
Oh and in all fairness I must add that while you might have valid points (auto updates without your permission? might be, I dont know), Ubuntu is, as a matter of fact, geared towards beginners and seems to aim to "just work". Lots of people *I know* would just press [X] on any popup they see (such as "Would you like to update?"). As far as I see, its still better than with Windows.
And we are still offtopic.
Of course it's unfair - that's the whole point.
The Adom wiki: everything you don't want to know about Adom.
http://ancardia.wikia.com/
Try OpenSUSE. It comes in a DVD rather than a CD, and it contains everything you need without the need for getting anything from the internet. And as far as I can remember it doesn't ask you to register anything.
In my opinion it also works much better than Ubuntu. The first versions of Ubuntu were really good but latter ones are quite unstable, they seem to be living off all the hype and advertising they got. Also the update policy is crazy, even the so-called "long term support" releases are not quite so long term and when they finish supporting a version they move or rename the repositories (why they do this beats me) so your apt-get no longer works and you have to google for a while to find out how to fix it.
I'd recommend OpenSUSE over Ubuntu any day, both for beginners and advanced users.
Last edited by Al-Khwarizmi; 08-08-2010 at 06:44 PM.
> And we are still offtopic.
Nobody cares. We always go offtopic here, and I think the OT kinda
played out already anyway.
> last time I checked the first thing you do with your
> new Windows install is "activate" it
Nosir. I've had 3 win machines, and even re-installed OS's
on 2 of them. No phone home to activate. Win also did not
'check for updates' before I could disable it.
> the vendor seems to think that such an autoupdater that shuts
> up and just gets the job done is perfect... for beginners.
Even beginners deserve a y/N option.
> the packages on the CD can't be the absolutely newest packages,
Don't need or want the newest packages. I like the stable older ones.
> Also, would you prefer not to get so much updates,
Prefer not to get any, but I'm changing a bit on that. It seems
that many linux gurus, even the security obsessed ones have a
more relaxed attitude than me about trusting linux distro vendors
to freely access their PC's and do as they wish with them. The
logic escapes me, but I suppose that I can tolerate it, just for
learning purposes.
> Still, what you just described sounds like a bug to me
It occured to me that it was a bug as well, especially the second
time.
> I'd try opening it in the console.
Next time I fire up the old desktop, I'll try it again.
>> I tried DL'ing InfraRecord.
> Because thats a windows-only program, as it says at the home page
Whups, my bad. I got confused from watching nixie pixel's linux
install vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhnLk...eature=related
She used infrarecord to put ubuntu on disk, in Win7, as did I.
Because it was a linux enthusiast vid, I naturally assumed all
the proggies used would be available for linux as well. I never
visited infraRecord's home page, only the sourceforge DL page,
so never saw the limitation.
> Well at least in linux there is only one central updater,
> programs don't have permission
That is very good news.
> Ubuntu is, as a matter of fact, geared towards beginners
Which is why I chose it, as I'm a beginner. I disagree with the
mentality of 'former win users are lazy and like shiny things'.
If that were true, we wouldn't be trying to switch. They really
wanna to make win-switchers happy, I say include help vids on
linux advantages, rather than duplicating win-flaws like 'aero'.
> seems to aim to "just work".
Can't complain there. A little help from a youtube 'how to' vid
and I had a pain free ubuntu install.
> would just press [X] on any popup they see (such as "Would you
> like to update?").
It's not even that bad. No popups, no nags, easy disable. The only
problems I had were the initial 'check FOR updates' before
I could disable, and the thing that I am now considering to be a
bug about 'you updated just hours ago'. I think I will try ubuntu
more, as I am still extremely impressed with how easy the install
was.
"Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."
@openSUSE: I used it before Ubuntu and didn't like it. Mayor reasons were probably a) RPM and b) that they even more than Ubuntu focus on graphical configuration. Acceptable if it works, hurts when it breaks. Also I was very scared of updates because they tended to cause problems more often than not. (Usually the fscking proprietary nvidia driver, but other things too.). Your mileage might vary.
Oh? Are you sure about the phone home thing, maybe it is just hidden?
I just looked it up on Wikipedia and it says activation is required... (ok, you can use it before activation, but still...). Well maybe you are right, I don't know, I'm not much of a windows user, also I've never actually bought anything from Microsoft, so I don't know how the versions they give out via MSDNAA differ from the ones you buy in a store.
This is what I addressed later on, the part with "users just press the [X]". But maybe you are right; but then the problem is that clueless people are allowed to use computers. Sadly they are, and they do hit [X], so the question is: what do you propose how we deal with them? (For Linux its not much of problem right now because their is not much linux malware right now, but still...)
Uh-huh, then Debian/stable might be just great for you.
Well I am split on this too -- I always do updates manually because I cant risk breaking things at the wrong time (especially on my desktop computer; like I said the server runs Debian/stable and so is unlikely to break because of an update).
But as for the actual contents of those update, realistically there is nothing I can do to make sure the vendor doesnt give me something malicious, so I just trust them. The good track record of the Debian project helps. Contrary to that, I don't trust Microsoft at all, because they have a bad track record of screwing their customers.
I know people who very much fall into the category of "oh shiny". They want to use Linux because of its price tag and/or to show off.
Gotcha.
Of course it's unfair - that's the whole point.
The Adom wiki: everything you don't want to know about Adom.
http://ancardia.wikia.com/
I eagerly await gut's progress report one year from now
ADOM Guides - whatever you wanted to know about playing a certain class, but have been afraid to ask!
Check out my youtube channel to see my ADOM videos, including a completed playthrough of the game. I try to give instructions, so if you want to see some place you haven't been before and get some hints on how to deal with it, this might help! There's also some other games featured there that you might find interesting.
I hope no one assumes I am some linux guru. However, I can see the security threats of automatic updates. You are sharing with some "linux distro vendor" all the applications you are running on your machine and even asking if they have any changes they want to make to them. However, in a trusted community of linux developers where the code used is open source so if you were so paranoid you could review it yourself, it is an easier pill to swallow instead of Windows iron curtain of proprietary big brother bullshit.> Also, would you prefer not to get so much updates,
Prefer not to get any, but I'm changing a bit on that. It seems
that many linux gurus, even the security obsessed ones have a
more relaxed attitude than me about trusting linux distro vendors
to freely access their PC's and do as they wish with them. The
logic escapes me, but I suppose that I can tolerate it, just for
learning purposes.
Try Debian/stable. Ubuntu is just Debian's linguistically skilled little brother anyways.
I said it before, and I'll say it again. If I knew scripture like you, I'd prolly be an athiest too.. -gut
/l、
(゚、 。 7
l、 ~ヽ
じしf_, )ノ
> Are you sure about the phone home thing, maybe it is just hidden?
100%. Installed and used the OS's for months without even having
net access. I have only ever bought PC's that come pre-installed
with win. I realize now they didn't come with standard win OS disks.
Maybe MS has reason to believe all OEM install/recovery disks are
purchased, so treats them differently.
>> Lots of people *I know* would just press [X] on any popup they
>> see (such as "Would you like to update?").
You speak as though updates are a needed thing. I don't think they
are. I'll try not to be too boring, but here's why I think this.
Up until last year, I happily used a win98 (first edition), 300
MHZ emachine. I kept NO antivirus software regularly
installed for 12 years, though I would occasionally borrow a disk
from a friend for testing. I never had a single virus. Getting
virii is much more a 'user habits' thing than a 'lack of security
updates' thing.
> what do you propose how we deal with them?
Really, to my mind, the question you ask translates to this 'how
do we force users to update' or put a bit more gently 'how do we
protect users from themselves'. To my paranoid/skeptical mind,
this situation stems from the fact that users routinely give
themselves pr0n or WaReZ virii, then call/clog tech support
and loudly blame everything except the pr9n or themselves.
My solution would be to treat adults like adults. Tell them once,
I would even tolerate upon install, that some web sites and
softwareZ such as pR0n/haxor/craxor are full of virii. If they
plan to visit these sites and execute these WaREz, be prepared to
be mercilessly spammed, trojaned, phished, and crashed for all
eternity. Tell them that their only hope is regular updates and
uber antivirus software. Make these features easy to access, and
tell them how. Tell them, in any event, not to clog tech support
lines with their pron-virii problems.
Popups are the work of satan. I say design and advertise linux
as the OS for grown-ups.
Having said all above, ubuntu is better than a free thing has
a right to be, and I feel stupid for complaining about it now.
> realistically there is nothing I can do to make sure the vendor
> doesnt give me something malicious, so I just trust them.
On a scale of 1 - 10, I give that a 2.
> The good track record of the Debian project helps.
I'll give that an 8.
> I don't trust Microsoft at all,
I'll give that a 10.
>> , as I am still extremely impressed with how easy the install was.
> Gotcha
I wouldn't say I'm hooked yet, but I will say very impressed. I read
a bit before installing, about how many hardware manufactureres don't
provide drivers for linux, so sometimes linux authors have to even
reverse engineer them. I was prepared for a tedius process, yet it
was easier than some win app installs. If they are that good
in one area, they deserve the benefit of the doubt in others.
> I eagerly await gut's progress report one year from now
Too true. I use me laptop 99% of time, and it's still a win machine.
I won't switch it over until I know what I'm doing
> I hope no one assumes I am some linux guru.
I wasn't referencing anyone specifically. Just stuff I picked up
from leeching some linux help sites. Seems that sysadmins all over
(even google if memory serves) just trust linux update servers to
not misbehave. I don't believe it is the nature of man to not
misbehave, but I don't have sensitive data in general, and certainly
none on me desktop, so for now I'll go with the flow.
> the code used is open source so
I'll give that one only a 6, as I'm not sure the update code is
open source. Is it? If it is, and there is already a standardised
way of self-policing it, I'll happily give it a 10.
"Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."
Accidentally got adom to run through the terminal. Dragged the adom
icon to the terminal and it gave me the command I needed.
Lessons learned along the way:
'cd downloads' isn't the same as 'cd Downloads' (actually knew that one, but forgot)
'cd..' isn't the same as 'cd ..'
'cd downloads' + 'cd adom' + 'adom' isn't the same as 'home/w/downloads/adom/adom'
Ubuntu impressed me again, twice. First, I unplugged my wireless usb
mouse transmitter from my laptop and tried it in the desktop on a whim.
Worked immediately. Second, I timed Ubuntu's boot time. From power on
to desktop took 30 seconds, same system boots vista in 60.
"Whip me!" pleads the adom player. The rng replies... "No."