Swear This Game is Needlessly Stupid Sometimes

[Whiskiz]

Twice in a row and another time not long after i get a creature turn into a writhing mass of primal chaos on the first, village dungeon and it gets about 30 hits into my crazy healing troll but just keeps going til i die, in one turn basically.

Go mist elf and of course, the same starter dungeon, 1 of the floors has (at least) 3 acid traps and i happen to hit all 3 and die.

Only time ive ever randomly been hit by balls of fire (not from the floor, any traps i can see or enemies, just walk into a room and suddenly a ball of flame with no (: m)essage to explain it) is when i went the squishy elf races a couple times.

Once was doing stuff with a chaos coaligned altar being careful not to stand on it for more than one turn at a time, but still a kobold randomly in one turn spawns off to the side and still close enough to sacrifice me killing me instantly in that same one turn so with no chance to react.

I have a pet that ends up killing karnach the raider, for the quest and am then not acknowledged as the slayer to receive the reward, because coding that in would be too smart.

The worst thing so far? since said run-in with a pet on karnach, seriously the next 4 games (***so far***) i have farmed the fuckin forest outside of town after picking the quest up from like level 2 until i am no longer elgibile for the quest (around level 6) using tons of food, making it dangerous and getting shit rusted from raining etc etc and have not, seen him, one time, in those hundreds, and hundreds, of turns..................... Plenty of bandit run-ins, plenty of bear fights even wizards jackals and dogs, what is even the point of having the fucking quest if the chance to do it is what 0.05%?

What other quests are so stupid you won't get them 99% of the time? it'd be great to know before wasting a life/time/character on said quests later on down the track, that would seriously, be stupid...

Game is so stupid in so many areas, im all for challenge and perma death, but as long as its death from not being good enough, making a mistake, not having the knowledge, making the wrong decisions, not factoring quite everything in etc etc

Thank god this 1.2 version was free, even though i would have gotten the torrent anyway, to try out cause im not paying a cent for a game this poorly designed, even for a proper hardcore roguelike (instant unavoidable death, not-so-instant but still *unavoidable* death and quests that dont even fucking work does not make a game more hardcore/better, it is a major design flaw.)

What a waste of space time and unfortunately effort, cause the game even though i haven't gotten far in from this stupidity and my own stupidity which im learning from but the former i can't do anything about, it really does look like it does some awesome stuff too, especially in the roguelike sense and it being an RPG roguelike, but what a shame parts of it are game breakingly retarded.

[heavensblade23]

Yes sometimes you get some bullshit deaths but it's really not that hard of a game once you learn how things work.

[GordonOverkill]

Twice in a row and another time not long after i get a creature turn into a writhing mass of primal chaos on the first, village dungeon and it gets about 30 hits into my crazy healing troll but just keeps going til i die, in one turn basically.

Well, the thrid time you will hopefully avoid it in melee. Just run away and come back later when you've got some jelly slaying ammunition.

Go mist elf and of course, the same starter dungeon, 1 of the floors has (at least) 3 acid traps and i happen to hit all 3 and die.

If your char was able to survive two acid traps, he must have been quite tough for a mist elf. Did you already use all your healing prayers before stepping into that last trap?

Only time ive ever randomly been hit by balls of fire (not from the floor, any traps i can see or enemies, just walk into a room and suddenly a ball of flame with no (: m)essage to explain it) is when i went the squishy elf races a couple times.

There are no enemies which cast ball spells, so it must have been a trap, probably activated by a monster.

Once was doing stuff with a chaos coaligned altar being careful not to stand on it for more than one turn at a time, but still a kobold randomly in one turn spawns off to the side and still close enough to sacrifice me killing me instantly in that same one turn so with no chance to react.

Did you close all the doors of that particular room? If you want to be 100% sure, create a small room made out of doors around that altar. That's what I always do when converting or just making use of one of the altars in the elemental temples.

I have a pet that ends up killing karnach the raider, for the quest and am then not acknowledged as the slayer to receive the reward, because coding that in would be too smart.

Well, that should probably be reported to Thomas and Jochen.

The worst thing so far? since said run-in with a pet on karnach, seriously the next 4 games (***so far***) i have farmed the fuckin forest outside of town after picking the quest up from like level 2 until i am no longer elgibile for the quest (around level 6) using tons of food, making it dangerous and getting shit rusted from raining etc etc and have not, seen him, one time, in those hundreds, and hundreds, of turns..................... Plenty of bandit run-ins, plenty of bear fights even wizards jackals and dogs, what is even the point of having the fucking quest if the chance to do it is what 0.05%?

You do that once or twice, then you know that you need some luck to encounter Kranarch. (if you intend to do so at all)

Game is so stupid in so many areas, im all for challenge and perma death, but as long as its death from not being good enough, making a mistake, not having the knowledge, making the wrong decisions, not factoring quite everything in etc etc

If I play seriously, I think that I get round about... well, probably 60-80% of my chars through the early game... and I am surely not a perfect player. Alot of things that you described could have been avoided with careful playing.

What a waste of space time and unfortunately effort, cause the game even though i haven't gotten far in from this stupidity and my own stupidity which im learning from but the former i can't do anything about, it really does look like it does some awesome stuff too, especially in the roguelike sense and it being an RPG roguelike, but what a shame parts of it are game breakingly retarded.

There are people (like myself) who consider ADOM the best game ever made. It takes some time to learn how to play it, but in my eyes it's definitely worth the effort.

[Blasphemous]

Let me just say this: screw Kranach. Ignore the quest totally.
It's not worth the effort or time because of its randomity.
If the reward was 10k gold, I just *might* consider doing it but ultimately I would probably not.
Last time I did it was likely a single digit prerelease, that's how little it matters.
By the time I'm done with DD/VD and PC, I will have more than 10k gold usually so this once again obsoletes Kranach's quest.
The reward is not even good enough to buy an occasionally nice item in the black market.

To Whiskiz:

I have a suggestion for you. Play on the ancardia server (either .us or .eu) and let us veterans know when that happens so we can spectate.
We'll find out if maybe you're doing something wrong and give an advice or two.
It would be nice if you were on the irc channel at the same time.

[_Ln_]

The chance to encounter Kranach is 25% once you have acquired the quest.

[GordonOverkill]

Well, it's 100% if you run around in the wilderness for long enough, but of course there are good reasons not to do that ;-)

However, Whiskiz, if you'd like some survival spoilers, I have recorded a video where I play a very fragile char (mist elven farmer) through the early game on a rather unlucky run (very few good findings and quite alot of retreats). So feel invited to take a look, if you like!
(Well, I actually die once due to obvious stupidity after round about five minutes, but at least the second char made it through the early game ;-) )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6g2...ature=youtu.be

[_Ln_]

Well, it's 100% if you run around in the wilderness for long enough, but of course there are good reasons not to do that ;-)

I mean that every wilderness encounter has a 25% chance to be Kranach as soon as the quest is taken. The chance to get the fight as one of the first 10 encounters is about 94%.

[GordonOverkill]

Thanks, that's definitely intersting to know :-)

[Whiskiz]

@Gordonoverkill
"Well, the third time you will hopefully avoid it in melee. Just run away and come back later when you've got some jelly slaying ammunition."

As long as it's not, for example in one situation, in a corridor between me and the stairs going up, and that i not only have archery but am skilled enough to use ranged weaponry, and actually have ranged weaponry to use, again this was at the very start, the first dungeon...

"If your char was able to survive two acid traps, he must have been quite tough for a mist elf. Did you already use all your healing prayers before stepping into that last trap?"

Now i look back on it im not sure how i was able to survive the first 2 traps, im guessing since i only had around 10 hp the rolls on the first 2 were low for the damage, and i just (w)aited after the 2 to heal since 10hp doesn't take long, would have saved the prayers, hopefully.

"There are no enemies which cast ball spells, so it must have been a trap, probably activated by a monster."

That's weird then, i would go into an unlocked room with no monster nor trap and would be flame balled, it wouldn't kill me but would wreck my stuff, damage me, be completely random again from no signs of where it came from even from the (:m)essage log and again out of the 20 or so tries ive had so far was only 2 times when i played the squishy elf races (of course.)

"Did you close all the doors of that particular room? If you want to be 100% sure, create a small room made out of doors around that altar. That's what I always do when converting or just making use of one of the altars in the elemental temples."

Enemies still open doors, found this out early while (w)aiting in rooms to heal, they will spawn open the door and still come at you.

"Well, that should probably be reported to Thomas and Jochen."

It has already been documented on several siteson the net, its a known i guess, mechanic, lol...

"Alot of things that you described could have been avoided with careful playing."

Really? how so? how do you avoid death by wmopc at the start when you have no ranged capabilities yet and especially when its between you and the exit? How do you avoid multiple acid traps in one dungeon level without stepping on them how do you know they are even there to "avoid"? How exactly do you avoid an enemy spawning in one turn and sacrificing you to an altar you are dealing with in that same said turn? don't go on altars? don't get holy water and ID your stuff ever? no sacrificing items?

"Well, it's 100% if you run around in the wilderness for long enough, but of course there are good reasons not to do that."

That's just not true, i did say 4 different characters i farmed the forest outside of town from level 2 until the quest was no longer available.

Thanks for the offer of watching the video too but yeah i don't want to see any spoilers i wouldn't feel as accomplished if i ever passed the game having seen how others do it. But i have been dying to watch others play this just to see their playstyle and generally watching a game being played by others is more enjoyable, but i can't yet haha.

@Blasphemous
Thanks man, screw kranach indeed, it looks like either way i am not able to get the quest to pop again anyway even from farming the forest as i mentioned from level 2 until the sheriff says he has gone and countless encounters and food used, so i don't really have a choice in dropping it but knowing that while doing so helps.....

Also thanks for the offer, i might look into it, but i've always been one of those selfless people that don't want to take anyone elses time up with my problems unless you guys like to actually spectate people/new players and/or help them.

@Ln
"The chance to encounter Kranach is 25% once you have acquired the quest."
"I mean that every wilderness encounter has a 25% chance to be Kranach as soon as the quest is taken. The chance to get the fight as one of the first 10 encounters is about 94%."

Im sorry but although this may be how its intended it just isn't true, unless my mentioned pet killing him in one playthrough and me not getting recognition for the quest somehow has bugged future playthroughs which i doubt (again the pet killing quest and not getting reward is documented online, if it bugged kranach thereafter, others would have noticed and documented that also and it probably would have finally been fixed.) As i said, 4 times in a row, 4 characters, got the quest and farmed the forest from level 2 until the quest was no longer available, around level 6. I also forgot to mention this was mostly with a troll and the trolls much higher exp needed per level.... Waaay more than 10 encounters, per character. their 25% chance quest encounter is a joke, a poor, poor joke. Hoping again that quests further on down the track aren't this retarded, putting a hard earned and worked on characters life at risk from basically poor design.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys.

[GordonOverkill]

Like I said, I play this game for six years now and I got the impression that some skill can save most characters. Sometimes you have extremely bad luck and some chars are just doomed to die, but in my eyes it doesn't happen too often and definitely not more often than in other roguelikes that I play... actually even less since ADOM is the roguelike I am best at. If you don't like that at all, it's probably just a general chemistry-problem between you and the game/the genre.

For the Kranach quest...
"The First" meets Kranach as his second encounter after accepting the quest. After 588 turns and a little more than 6 days of game time the quest is finished successfully. The only thing he did for preparation was the beginners dungeon.
"The Second" meets Kranach as his third encounter. After 550 turns and a little more than 7 days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Third" meets Kranach as his eighth encounter. After 834 turns and 12 and a halve days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Fourth" meets Kranach as his third encounter, avoids the battle my misklicking and meets him again as his fourth encounter. After 522 turns and almost 7 days the quest is finished successfully.
"The Fifth" meets Kranach as his first encounter. After 385 turns and 1 and a halve days the quest is finished successfully.

All five test chars got a corpse from the raider lord, so probably that's guaranteed now.

What do we learn from this experiment?
1. _Ln_ was very likely absolutely right with his statistics.
2. Dwarven Paladins can easiely take out Kranach, even when they are only level 1.
3. I've got enough Dwarven Paladins to play for the months to come.
4. If you want to know what I suppose you did wrong with the quest, read this spoiler:

The quest has an upper level limit. As soon as you reach experience level 6, Kranach will disappear and leave the land. Just talk to the sherrif on that point and he will inform you about these news.