Level advancement question.

[Berserker]

I understand Trolls level a lot slower than other races, does anyone have a percentage on that? Also, do all other races level the same? If not, which races level the quickest? I just rolled a cup with the falling star message, and I want a super fast leveling character that I can save as a template.

[JellySlayer]

I understand Trolls level a lot slower than other races, does anyone have a percentage on that? Also, do all other races level the same? If not, which races level the quickest? I just rolled a cup with the falling star message, and I want a super fast leveling character that I can save as a template.

Trolls level at 3x the rate of "normal". Most of the other races are pretty much the same... I think orcs and drakes are little slower, and gnomes and hurthlings are faster. Some classes level slightly faster--farmers do, for example. All of the non-troll bonuses are on the order of 10% increase/decrease. So a gnome farmer would probably be the fastest leveller.

Taking the good learner talent also gives a 40% (not 2%) increase.

Falling star is not experience bonus, IIRC. I think it makes missile weapons level faster.

[Berserker]

So being born in the month of the cup (10% quicker), with the falling star message (10% quicker) and taking, "Good Learner," (40% quicker) I should level at 40% of what it normally takes? I had heard about Good Learner being messed up, but I never bothered with it, or believed it (I was skeptical anyway). Damn, if that is true, Good Learner should be a top choice for everyone. Do you all take it everytime?

[Dudley]

I do. In the same conditions as TH : when i have reasonnably chances of surviving without a new talent. Level isn't "much" of an issue, xcept if you want to ultra a troll.
IIRC, growth rate are (increasingly) troll, dwarf, drakeling, all elves, orcs, hurtling, gnome.

[Soirana]

let say you gain 1 mil xp to advance x levels.... As troll you need 3mil instead.

Cup +buggy talents gives you 50% so 1,5 mil... You still advance twice as slow.... as non troll without cup and so on.

[Soirana]

I do. In the same conditions as TH : when i have reasonnably chances of surviving without a new talent. Level isn't "much" of an issue, xcept if you want to ultra a troll.
IIRC, growth rate are (increasingly) troll, dwarf, drakeling, all elves, orcs, hurtling, gnome.

Lot of people are messing race xp percents and seemingly increases due to some races having better physical stats at start [stats are a factor too].

IIRC, very is only four groups:
gnomes and hobbits
humans
all others
trolls.

[Dudley]

Not twice as slow. 3/2 as slow :p

[psy_wombats]

Fairly sure the math's not right anywhere. Multiply, not add.

Cup = .9
Gnome = .9
Farmer = .9
Birth message = .9
Good Learner = .6 (effectively)

So the fastest is about 40%.

And troll with Cup, birthmessage, etc would be at 130% the normal cost.

[Dudley]

Fairly sure the math's not right anywhere. Multiply, not add.

Cup = .9
Gnome = .9
Farmer = .9
Birth message = .9
Good Learner = .6 (effectively)

So the fastest is about 40%.

And troll with Cup, birthmessage, etc would be at 130% the normal cost.

That's quick. Gomish Cup farmers with a fallen star/two-headed calves with good learner level up more than twice faster.

[Berserker]

Ok I kept restarting ADOM until I had a gnomish bard born in the month of the cup, with the falling star message and ANOTHER one with all of that and I took the good learner skill. BOTH took in the low 12 millions to get to level 50.

THEN! I realized the good learner skill adds +40% to the EXP that you EARN, so of course it's not going to reflect it visually in the screen where it shows the EXP it takes to gain a certain level. All the same, I took Heir, and then Alert, I will pick up Good Learner at level 3.

[Dudley]

Bards are awful to make survive. They're all a matter of luck, so you'll keep dying. Of course, from me saying that, you'll find an eternium two handed sword in SMC..; and from me saying that you'll probably die of carelessness*goes on rambling*

[gut]

exp is easier gained through other means. prolly 1% of mobs
give 99% of exp. or something like that. gnomish farmer of
weakness levels one million times more slowly than a wizard
that starts with a darkness spellbook. 1 shoppy = 1K goblins.

on a side note, there are also tactics like slowing self with
food, wieght, spells. casting invis on mob right before kill.
maybe a few others that escape me.

[JellySlayer]

I understand Trolls level a lot slower than other races, does anyone have a percentage on that? Also, do all other races level the same? If not, which races level the quickest? I just rolled a cup with the falling star message, and I want a super fast leveling character that I can save as a template.

Just to point this out... levelling doesn't matter much in ADOM. Even with a fairly ridiculous PC set up to level like crazy, you still will probably be doing the Tower around level 20. Certainly no higher than 25 unless you scum a ton, and the difference between a level 20 and level 25 character isn't that big. Better off taking a race/class that you find fun, and the Candle starsign. Candle makes such a huge difference, nothing else is really worth considering (well, Raven might be for some types of PCs).

Gnome bard or farmer will be much harder than a wizard, priest, or archer, regardless of how quickly your bard or farmer might level.

[Silfir]

A level 1 wizard with a Magic Missile spellbook probably has better chances to survive any given encounter than a level 10 farmer.

[Dudley]

Actually, leveling up is VERY important for bards, because it's where there only power comes, save pets : skills. Besides, the bard class powers look and ARE awesome. those i managed to get

[Molach]

With good learner you will be 1 level higher around level 13, mabye 2 at level 25, 3 for level 40.

What this will matter in the game is next to nothing.

Being 1-2 extra levels when fighting wyrm...so what? Might as well have +2 speed or +1PV or +2 DV or something.

I never take the talent for a normal game. Might consider it for a "level up to 50 in the ID"-type game.

[Silfir]

Have to agree with Molach there. Perhaps if you've got a very powerful level 6 or 12 class power and need to reach it as quickly as possible in a restricted game (imagine Weakest Link), Good Learner is a worthwhile investment. What can make a real difference are silly experience amounts such as those gained from the AKW, which are silly whether Good Learner or not.

How well substantiated is the 40% figure? When the bug was discovered I remember people qualifying the amount with saying "at least in the beginning"; do experience gains stay significantly higher even later in the game, or does the bug's influence decrease over time?

[JellySlayer]

How well substantiated is the 40% figure? When the bug was discovered I remember people qualifying the amount with saying "at least in the beginning"; do experience gains stay significantly higher even later in the game, or does the bug's influence decrease over time?

The 40% figure is pretty well established. It's easy enough to test. I've ADOMBotted a PC through levels 1-50 with good learner on and it doesn't seem to stop working. IIRC, the latter was suggested in passing by Grey back in the day, and has been repeated as gospel ever since.

[Silfir]

What happened is that Grey (or whoever) checked it for the first couple levels and told people he wasn't sure if it kept. All I was asking is if it has been checked now.

[Berserker]

Thanks for all the replies. To some that mentioned it, I know bards are hard to keep alive, but I've played and continue to play every race/class combination, so I don't care. If he lives, cool, if not, no big deal.

[Grey]

What happened is that Grey (or whoever) checked it for the first couple levels and told people he wasn't sure if it kept. All I was asking is if it has been checked now.

I emphasised that I wasn't sure if it kept because as far as I could tell there was no difference in the total xp gains over a whole game between my Good Learner and regular chars. This is very difficult to compare directly, of course, but I would have thought a 40% difference would be way more noticeable. I don't think anyone's gone to the effort to check.

I must agree with those that say the difference in actual levels is very small. Only over the first 10 levels will you notice a big difference in all these xp bonus factors. After that the xp differences between levels are so big that they don't make much difference, and it's only the slow troll levelling that's particularly noticeable. Later in the game it's mostly bosses that provide the vast wealth of xp, and as gut says using abuses on them factors in a lot more than certain character builds.

[Sadface]

Regarding the "You don't need levels, you just need items" thing...
I'm beginning to see how this can be true; normally levels seem to
bug me, but I'm clearing Darkforge with a level 12 healer at the
moment, so...:p

[Berserker]

What are the tricks to get more XP from big XP enemies (bosses)? Turn them invisible right before the kill? What else?

[nathrakh]

Turn them invis, slow yourself & have good learner talent.

There are atleast two exceptions: cat lord, which gives more exp (and is more dangerous!) the more you've killed cats.

Another one is shambling mounds that grow bigger if they come intact with lightning. If you trap one inside a small room and bounce lightning bolts it can give humongouns amounts of exp when killed eventually.

[sorear]

There is a place in experience calculation where it comes up with 2 for good learner and 5 for good + great learner; it should do xp += xp * X / 100 but instead it does xp += xp / X. It's really 50%.

[gut]

> Just to point this out... levelling doesn't matter
> much in ADOM.

My exp. says otherwise. Even for the PC's that can
start clearing DF at exp. level 8, they are a lot
more dangerous (and safer) at exp. level 12.

> you still will probably be doing the Tower around
> level 20

Especially for a new player, an extra 2 or 3 levels can
make a big difference. It's not just HP's. The game
just treats you differently (better) in a number of
ways when you are higher level. XP level is involved
in many internal calculations, though personally I'm
mainly aware of the more magic oriented ones.

> Being 1-2 extra levels when fighting wyrm...so what?
> Might as well have +2 speed or +1PV or +2 DV or something.

Not so true. The benefits you list are each worth 1 talent or
less. Having the 10 extra HP's (alone) that would come with
2 extra levels would be worth 3 talents. I find that to be an
accurate estimation of their worth.

> Candle makes such a huge difference, nothing else
> is really worth considering (well, Raven might be
> for some types of PCs).

And cup/book for some others, and dragon/sword for
others...

[Dudley]

don't forget wand, book.

[Doorsfan]

From my own experience, LvLs can be important
dependant on your way of playing. For example
assume that you are levling a troll like i did a while
ago - now at times age is not that much of an issue
(i mean if you can blast ghost x/y/z to oblivion, then
there's no prob) - but there's only one clear problem
about trolls.

Levels - it's a fact of that if you play a troll, it's likely
that you'll have to re-do your whole thougt of stratergy
towards visting places due to strict number requirements
(For example, what troll would hit 30 before having cleared
D:50 for unicorn q? What Troll would hit even 22 before deep
dive to even START THINKING of Mino maze?) - even the pyr-
amid can be quite a problem in question.

But assume that you're not a troll then - that you are a gnome
instead. Then you could end up blasting your self to lev 10 or 11
when you just get out of Puppy Cave - now that's quite cool,
you'll be close to having your lev 12 perk, you have a bit of hp so
that even if you're a weak char you do stand a chance of living -
and you also get talents. So over-all, there is really no minus to
getting levels faster in any way, more then it is acctualy only +.

And thoose +'s are quite heavy - seeing as of how you'd say "Oh, yeah
i always go hardy/etc. line or quick/etc." line - where as of you acctualy
get thoose bonuses from just getting a bit more of levels. My 2 cents of
turning a blind eye towards Xp.

[Silfir]

Well, of course there is no minus to getting levels faster. (Well, amulet of order working.) Who said that?

The point that was made is that one level - which is all the difference between Good Learner and not Good Learner starting from about level 10 - is a minor difference. If you don't have the tools to beat the tower at level 20, you still won't have them at level 21.

[zasvid]

Well, of course there is no minus to getting levels faster. (Well, amulet of order working.) Who said that?


I disagree. I don't like leveling too fast in the beginning (before dwarftown), because it gives the ancient dwarf an opportunity to give you a crazy monster for the first quest. It makes me sad when it happens, because often I get my first fireproof blanket in dwarf's 4th reward. Also, wand of fireballs isn't bad either.

[JellySlayer]

> Candle makes such a huge difference, nothing else
> is really worth considering (well, Raven might be
> for some types of PCs).

And cup/book for some others, and dragon/sword for
others...

Dragon/sword I never play if I have the choice. I don't notice any benefit to either starsign. Cup/book I might consider on a healer, priest, or maybe druid, but I still think Candle/Raven would probably be better. For my recent stint of doomed PCs, I've found non-Candles are virtually unplayable. Healing skill just isn't good enough, and you can't raise it fast enough.

[Silfir]

If survivability is measured by the criteria "optimal play", Candle and Drakeling should win overall.

Me, I just don't like drakelings.

[Grey]

Blasphemy :(