PDA

View Full Version : iADOM Discussion



Grey
04-05-2010, 07:09 PM
Don't want the bug report thread being cluttered up, but I imagine people are wanting to share their thoughts on this...

Firstly, I have to say I really have no interest in getting an iPad, not even for ADOM. I'm guessing a lot of others are in the same boat. Still, in the longer run whatever successors there are of the iPad could well be appealing to me, and it may well be that iADOM will be easily ported (or natively supported). The more important thing really though is it's great to hear talk of a bugfix update of ADOM. Any sort of update is brilliant to see, and may even spur on some new content. We seem to be losing sight of any hope of JADE being completed in the near future, and even if it were there's no guarantee it would be half as fun as ADOM is. An update to ADOM seems like a much better use of TB's time to me now.

I'm not sure how the interface would work on the iPad. Movement and meleeing monsters would be simple enough with the touchscreen, but all the menus would be a lot more complex. I can only assume that there'd be buttoned commands at the side, which lead into sub menus for skills/spells/inventory etc, but it could end up being horribly complex. Still, would be interesting to see. Thomas may wish to look a little at NethackDS (http://blog.b-ark.ca/NetHackDS) for some inspiration on how to add touchscreen control to a roguelike. It has a touchscreen keyboard but it tries to limit most commands to context based screen touching rather than cumbersome key commands.

Also, in terms of features, I'm not too fussed about new content to the game, but there are a few interface things I'd be interested in. In particular integration of many of ADOM Sage's features, especially message highlighting and suppression.

Any thoughts on what people would like to see in a Deluxe version? Starsign selector would certainly be nice.

Nezur
04-05-2010, 07:19 PM
I'm also much more excited over the possible future bug fix than the iPad port.

Al-Khwarizmi
04-05-2010, 08:25 PM
+1 to what you both say. Also not going to buy an iPad, but excited about the update and bugfixes. I wish TB made an ADOM Deluxe for PC, I'm sure many of us would pay.

Powder (http://www.zincland.com/powder/index.php?pagename=about) is another example of a roguelike that does a lot with a quite simplified interface, I guess ideas from it could be applied to the touchscreen.

Albahan
04-05-2010, 10:20 PM
I also believe this is awesome not only for this community of ADOM players but also for TB himself. Especially if he can get some sort of sponsorship he would probably be able to devote a lot more time into making ADOM even bigger and better.

Things I'd like to see in a deluxe version:
1) More Artifacts; especially cloaks, girdles, boots, bracers, maybe an instrument, and a boomerang or javelin.
2) Larger variety in the blanket department (as suggested in the features section)
3) A question system that impacts more than just starting stats, things like alignment and starting equipment.

The Metro Gnome
04-06-2010, 02:38 AM
Will it work for the Itouch/phone?

meekrab
04-06-2010, 04:21 AM
Not sure how this will work, given there's no keyboard on the iPad...

JellySlayer
04-06-2010, 04:25 AM
Not sure how this will work, given there's no keyboard on the iPad...

Doesn't the iPad have a touch keyboard on the lower third or so of the screen?

gut
04-06-2010, 07:12 AM
I still say Biskup would make more $$$ by simply adding some
banners to this forum. Nobody is in love with banners, but I
for one would definitely not stop visiting just because of a
few ads. At least it would pay site bandwidth, maybe.

EDIT: Just a good natured jab:

> adom-admin Posts: 40
> Ok, so I fumbled. In the first thread of this subforum I asked for the most pressing bugs to be fixed
...
> I forgot about one thing:
...
> the project management tool for ADOM

Noob.

Grey
04-06-2010, 07:18 AM
I have an ad-blocker on anyway... I personally don't like the idea of it though, and I'm not sure how much income he'd really get. None of us would ever click on the links.

Universal
04-06-2010, 09:28 AM
To be honest I'm not excited with idea of iAdom, I'm not going to get any iPhone or iPad in any predictable future. However new adom version, bug fixes and new features(though probably I won't live long enough for that one) sounds really cool.

Still I'd rather like to see some JADE related updates, but oh well, you can't have everything I guess...

gut
04-06-2010, 02:44 PM
Of course none of us would ever click on the links. Pfft. :D

I don't think all ads work that way though, some are based
on site traffic alone. At least I think so. Considering the kind
of visitors we have here, TB could prolly feel comfortable
allowing the much maligned pop-up ads that pay a higher
rate. We would all just have them blocked, so no one would
be annoyed. If a newby complained, I'm sure we could/would
enlighten them quickly enough.

If TB can't make money off of ADOM though, there is little
justification to spend additional time on it.

Hate to say it, but iADOM doesn't seem exciting to me either.
Iphones, Ipad, Ipods, may as well be telling me we're getting
ADOM for XBox. Furthermore, I don't think there are enough
ADOM players in the world to make this worthwhile, even if
half of us bought Ipads and DL'd copies of ADOM from I-tunes.
The revenues would depend almost entirely upon folks who
already own I-nonsense, and somehow I don't see ADOM
being competitive with those proggies that have such nice
flashy graphics.

My 2 cents, fix the major bugs, (maybe include an auto-explore
feature), include new info in the documentation (advertising
these forums), and sell ads here. Graphics would also help, of
course, but I think ADOM tiles would be too small to be useful.

Al-Khwarizmi
04-06-2010, 03:09 PM
O
My 2 cents, fix the major bugs, (maybe include an auto-explore
feature), include new info in the documentation (advertising
these forums), and sell ads here. Graphics would also help, of
course, but I think ADOM tiles would be too small to be useful.

And sell an ADOM deluxe for PC. Many of us would buy it.

nathrakh
04-06-2010, 03:50 PM
Yeah, definetly release ADOM Deluxe in this year. ADOM has many hardcore fans out there and I for one would definetly buy a copy. Something like 10-20? is very reasonable for one of the best games ever. Heck, I'd pay even 50?.

gut
04-06-2010, 03:59 PM
For the time being, I hardly play ADOM. As I understand it,
Soirana is in kinda the same place, and many other long time
enthusiasts are as well. I wouldn't pay for ADOM, but I
would bet adom.de has a nicely targeted 18-34 year old
male audience, and that has to be enticing to advertisers.

EDIT: A quick sorting of the 'adom discussion' thread yielded:

minor things but undocumented 28,662 views
Guidebook work 23,580 views
The 'treasure hunter' talent sucks. 20,063 views (for shame!)
Roman Republic Challenge - revisited 19,890 views
SSH-accessible public ADOM server online 19,358 views
Ways to Die 17,228 views
The Weakest Link: Discussion Thread 15,151 views
Dwarf Merchant : Paint Picture. ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page) 15,105 views

Seeing that makes me think the next TWL challenge
should have a dedicated sponsor : )

Seriously, that has to be able to gen some $$$

Irinka
04-06-2010, 04:30 PM
I wouldn't buy ADOM for iPad either. Why? Because iPads are expensive. I don't have either iPhone nor any other Apple product and I'm happy with that. ADOM with fixed bug would be nice, but I wouldn't buy an expensive machine to play it.


For the time being, I hardly play ADOM. As I understand it,
Soirana is in kinda the same place, and many other long time
enthusiasts are as well
I think it's because after long years of playing, it has become a bit boring to do the same things, over and over. Even repleyability of the best roguelike has to come to end one day.

Banners and other pop-ups are reasonable, but I think counter-productive. Why should the Creator bother with creating a game/fixing bugs/anything, if he can just put a banner on adom forum and be happy with that small amounts extra cash he earns?
For us, the fans, creating a new game (JADE), or expanding the old one (ADOM Deluxe) for PC would be the best solution.

The Metro Gnome
04-06-2010, 04:37 PM
Ok, so it is agreed that bug fixes come first before ipad version, right? (Plus I heard it's just a big itouch, nothing really special)

But when (or if) the ipad version is created, will it work on itouch? (btw they have a 2 nethacks versions for the itouch, I kinda liked the one with the shortcuts at the bottom for common keys and the keyboard too.)

Al-Khwarizmi
04-06-2010, 05:36 PM
I hate to say this, but I think banners don't give much money, gut... some days ago I met an old classmate who now has a pretty popular blog. He told me that he was getting 10M visits a month, and that was paying him 400 Euro/month in ads. Then I offered him an euro cent, he rejected it and I said "hey, are you going to reject 250 hits just like that?" (yes, sometimes I can be evil too...)

Although to tell all the truth, he also said that he was going to look at more targeted ad campaigns, which apparently pay much more than generic ads. He was expecting to increase his revenue quite a bit with that. So maybe if TB could find some of those campaigns he could made it profitable. But I understand that it is probably more interesting to sell games than to go hunting for advertisers.

People like you and Soirana are a bit tired of ADOM after years and years of playing and that's normal (no game is THAT good! well, except perhaps Magic The Gathering, I have been playing that for like 16 years). But others among us would pay for ADOM Deluxe and I'm sure that many newcomers, finding a game with the bugs fixed and working flawlessly in their sucky Vista/7 OS's, would too. Especially now that sales of indie games are on the rise and there are platforms like Steam, etc. to make an indie game known.

If I personally were TB and I wanted to make some money off ADOM, I'd fix the bugs, make sure everything works smoothly in Vista/7, and upload it to Steam. I'm sure it would make quite a bit of money. Hey, they released X-COM UFO Defense on Steam a year ago and many of us hurried to buy it, and that's older than ADOM :)

gut
04-06-2010, 06:41 PM
> But others among us would pay for ADOM Deluxe

Exactly how would ADOM deluxe differ from ADOM + AdomBot?

> many newcomers, finding a game with the bugs fixed and working
> flawlessly in their sucky Vista/7 OS's, would too

Maybe, but Crawl works better than ADOM prolly will for a while to
come, has surprisingly nice graphics, has the most advanced user
interface of all RL's, yet people don't pay for it. I just don't see a RL
generating sales, but on the other hand, I'm no developer.

Al-Khwarizmi
04-06-2010, 07:45 PM
Exactly how would ADOM deluxe differ from ADOM + AdomBot?

To tell the truth I'm not really interested in the cheat modes planned for ADOM Deluxe, it would just feel like paying for all these years of fun with ADOM.

Anyway, the bugfixes would make a difference, and I'm sure TB could find some time to add some extra artifacts and stuff.


Maybe, but Crawl works better than ADOM prolly will for a while to
come, has surprisingly nice graphics, has the most advanced user
interface of all RL's, yet people don't pay for it. I just don't see a RL
generating sales, but on the other hand, I'm no developer.

Um, the version of Crawl that I played didn't have graphics, it was ASCII like ADOM. But anyway, the question is, have they tried to sell it and failed?

Unforgiven82
04-06-2010, 07:50 PM
I was just talking to my friend about Adom (courtesy of my newest win). He was really exited about the iPad adom and frankly so would I be if I didn't have such a deeply rooted hatred for Apple ;) I honestly think this could open up a whole new Adom boom. If I understood correctly the core adom would still be free/postcard-ware and you'd only pay for the deluxe properties. I have a lot of friends who know about adom but will never take the time to play it in their homes. Several of them however are planning on getting iPad and I bet most of those would definately prefer to play Adom on it (in a buss, subway, bored at work whatever) compared to the propable tetris, mario and such clones.

gut
04-06-2010, 08:23 PM
Crawl has tiles.

http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/downloads

To my knowledge, they have never tried to sell it,
but since it's open source...

Al-Khwarizmi
04-07-2010, 07:02 AM
Then it's not a valid example of why you can't sell roguelikes. A valid example would be someone trying to sell a (good) roguelike and not succeeding.

I think 5-10 years ago it would have been all but impossible to sell something like a roguelike. But now, with things like Steam, and with many gamers angry with big companies due to intrusive DRM and supporting indie gaming, it's different. There's many people paying $10 for things like Audiosurf or $4 for Geometry Wars.

grobblewobble
04-07-2010, 09:07 AM
To be honest, I personally wouldn't buy ADOM Deluxe if it was for sale. Not because
I don't want to pay, but because I don't have a credit card and I don't think ADOM
would make it to local stores..

Then again, there is this alternative called Ideal. This is another way of transferring
money online, I think it's mainly used in Europe. It lets you transfer the money directly
from your bank account, without needing a credit card. If I could buy it using that
system, I'd do it.

fazisi
04-07-2010, 09:09 AM
I'm not getting an iPad.

Al-Khwarizmi
04-07-2010, 09:38 AM
Then again, there is this alternative called Ideal. This is another way of transferring money online, I think it's mainly used in Europe. It lets you transfer the money directly
from your bank account, without needing a credit card. If I could buy it using that
system, I'd do it.

If my suggestion were followed, the Steam distribution system supports PayPal which also allows payment by bank account without credit card, like the Ideal system that you describe.

gut
04-07-2010, 09:41 AM
Mention Steam to TB then, if you haven't already. It
sounds better than ipad to me, but I just don't see
people paying.

rmcin329
04-08-2010, 12:04 AM
I'm not getting an iPad.

Same here. I would look at that steam thing however, and possibly buy it on there.

myrddin
04-09-2010, 02:20 AM
As someone who KNOWS that apple products are WAY WAY overhyped and doesn't really care for them at all - why can't we have ADOM for other/better devices? Maybe even one that embraces open source and won't make you jump through hoops to get it on their store - like Android!!

Make and Android app instead - in my opinion 100000000000x better!

The Metro Gnome
04-09-2010, 04:22 AM
Personally, I'd like to keep ADOM free. That's what makes it such a great game for me. It's simplicity added with it overly complicated junk make it a really worthwhile game. Sure, most people who already KNOW about ADOM would buy the paid version for whatever, but all those others who don't know about it will probably just ignore it (Like I do with apps for the Ipod that look weird or boring but aren't)

Over all, I saw "Keep ADOM Free!" or KAF for short.

prime
04-09-2010, 08:00 AM
Is there any chance of porting this to the iphone/ipod touch? I have an ipod touch and I would definitely pay for the app. I believe iphone apps make quite a bit of revenue and they're great for getting more exposure (with a pc game, you have to rely on online distribution or convincing retailers to stock it). I honestly don't see the iPad catching on, while the phone platform is probably here to stay.

The main problem is the interface (which is admittedly a huge problem and I'm guessing it's the reason for porting it to the iPad instead). But I think a simplified version would be just as playable, and since it's a phone game it doesn't have to be a full-length game. The nethack ports are ok, but having full-size levels and the entire command set makes even the best port really cumbersome. It made an effort to put the commonly used commands right on the main screen, but I still found myself constantly going into the menu to find a command.

That said, I think smartphones would be a much better platform. They have a built-in keyboard, and a nicer aspect ratio (the iphone is too tall, and fitting controls in landscape mode would be a pain). I don't know how much of the target demographic has a smart phone, but it could be worth considering.

Unforgiven82
04-09-2010, 11:18 AM
Personally, I'd like to keep ADOM free. That's what makes it such a great game for me. It's simplicity added with it overly complicated junk make it a really worthwhile game. Sure, most people who already KNOW about ADOM would buy the paid version for whatever, but all those others who don't know about it will probably just ignore it (Like I do with apps for the Ipod that look weird or boring but aren't)

Over all, I saw "Keep ADOM Free!" or KAF for short.

Adom as it is will stay free. This has been stated several times. You would only need to pay for "deluxe"-properties (whatever they may be) that would/will never be implemented without a price tag.

The Metro Gnome
04-09-2010, 02:13 PM
Oh, I hope "Deluxe" does not mean "Bug Fixed and Constant Updates" (What would be really cool is to choose your birth month)

jt
04-09-2010, 08:35 PM
Bugs will be fixed for all ADOM versions since they share the same code base and only differ in platform specific parts.

The new "multitasking" feature of iPhone OS 4 increases the chance for an iPhone release. :D

Angelus
04-10-2010, 02:30 PM
So this is why TB never released the source code. He was just waiting for some platform to appear which could in theory sell couple of ADOM deluxe or whatever. F U man.

gut
04-10-2010, 02:33 PM
Delightful contribution.

Qui
04-10-2010, 02:58 PM
Exciting news. But I hope it doesn't mean that new ADoM will be iPad only? I'm no fan of those "awesome" portable technologies, for gaming I use my PC and only that. My cellphone is 6 years old and not getting a new one unless this one is beyond repair. I'd have no problem with paying a reasonable price for ADoM deluxe, although I'm more of a Crawl player these days, I'm sure I'd play any new ADoM release. On PC. But if it's iPad only, well... it's new tech, but I'm sure there will be workarounds for that soon enough...

Silfir
04-10-2010, 11:34 PM
The iPad, as far as I understand it, provides a means to process microtransactions easily through Apple-applications-related shenanigans or somesuch. Hence the suggestion for Steam as a PC equivalent with similar possibilities. As an alternative you could look into Stardock's Impulse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_%28stardock%29), but Steam is definitely more popular.

Good things about the recent development:

- ADOM produced in a portable version at all
- Thomas getting back into ADOM development, which might spur him on regarding JADE down the road even
- Thomas making a bit of much-earned money as compensation
- ADOM receiving bugfixes in preparation for the release which are easy to implement in the free (as in: You don't have to pay any money) PC version. Something which the community has been dying to get since friggin' 2002.

Bad things about the recent development:

- You won't get the source code, like, ever.

So what, I say. There are tons of other open source roguelikes to look into. ADOM is not good because of its source code, it's good because a guy with a clue made it, and if the guy with the clue returns to making it glorious things will happen.

Won't buy an iPad for ADOM either, but I imagine close to anyone who enjoys playing ADOM and owns an iPad will get it, and possibly get whatever they can for it. God knows people who own iPads shouldn't have problems with the concept of paying with money for things. (50% more expensive than a Playstation 3? Seriously?)

JellySlayer
04-11-2010, 07:44 AM
Oh, I hope "Deluxe" does not mean "Bug Fixed and Constant Updates" (What would be really cool is to choose your birth month)

Just like you how can choose your birth month in real life? ;)

There's already some code floating around to let you do this, actually. Or you can play on the server, once it's back up, which has this feature enabled by default.

Angelus
04-11-2010, 09:26 AM
He was giving us hope to get the source code, but now it's lost. It's almost like Alan Wake. All that waiting and now it's available only for X360. Is money really that important?

Universal
04-11-2010, 11:32 AM
So this is why TB never released the source code. He was just waiting for some platform to appear which could in theory sell couple of ADOM deluxe or whatever. F U man.


He was giving us hope to get the source code, but now it's lost. It's almost like Alan Wake. All that waiting and now it's available only for X360. Is money really that important?

Actually I believe that there is one more reason why TB never released source code of ADOM. That reason is socially retarded(look at readme file) people like you. He spend hunderds/thousands hours on programming ADOM, and he's letting people play his game completly for free. And instead of appreciate his work and fact that he's letting you play his game for free, you're telling him "fuck you" just because he doesn't want to release source code of HIS game?

He didn't promised over a year ago that sources will be released - he was just thinking about it. Obviously he decided that they won't be released, it's his right. Instead of whining and cursing, why don't you write your own game like Adom?

Al-Khwarizmi
04-11-2010, 11:45 AM
Well, I personally would prefer getting the source, because there could be many more bugfixes and improvements and I would be able to have a go at it myself. But TB never promised to release the source, he was just thinking about it. So if we get some bugfixes and updates I'll be more than happy about that, a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush...

(in Spain we are more radical with that, we say "a bird in the hand is better than a hundred flying) :D

Elone
04-11-2010, 12:49 PM
-I'm not getting iPad. Ever. Even if it was free or if it rained iPads. I feel same about certain other technologies.
-The Deluxe version would have to have everything that Adombot has, and more, otherwise why would we buy it? Still, selling that "cheating enabled" version would be like getting some Creator's approval to cheat. You dont need approval for cheating. And if you dont plan to cheat, you dont need such a Deluxe version.
-If Deluxe version will hold bugfixes, I wont be paying for it as I've already learned to live with existing bugs.
-Heck, I'm not even looking forwards to bugfixes AT ALL. Most have been detected and ways around them found.
-I wanted Source Code out in the open SOLELY so that progress would finally continue somehow, but it isnt going to happen.
-JADE seems to be a hopeless wait in this case. Okay, I understand the Creator having some sort of actual life, but in the end, JADE progress will slow/cease, and players arent going to see much of it.
-I'm not very motivated about ADOM and JADE anymore, as (virtually) nothing else will (hypothetically) be done about them to make them better than they are right now. Or in case of JADE, playable.

Angelus
04-11-2010, 08:43 PM
Actually I believe that there is one more reason why TB never released source code of ADOM. That reason is socially retarded(look at readme file) people like you.

TB himself seems to be the socially retarded one. He doesn't understand that he could let ADOM go if he (obviously) don't have time to fix the bugs and make improvements. He is just too jealous of what might happen: that some people could make -better- ADOM. I don't like his personality. He is too busy to communicate with fans of ADOM, I mean look at his messages. Who acts like that? He could surely improve his social skills.

adom-admin
04-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Mention Steam to TB then, if you haven't already. It
sounds better than ipad to me, but I just don't see
people paying.

Yes, I'm looking into that.

How does Steam work with updates? I read something about an automatic update feature which sounds nice for normal games but for ADOM it poses one problem: Usually save files are not compatible with older releases and automatic updates in that case actually might be very annoying...

Feedback from Steam users welcome!

Thomas

adom-admin
04-11-2010, 09:23 PM
TB himself seems to be the socially retarded one. He doesn't understand that he could let ADOM go if he (obviously) don't have time to fix the bugs and make improvements. He is just too jealous of what might happen: that some people could make -better- ADOM.

That's actually pretty moronic to say.

Why would I be jealous. If you feel you can write a better game just do it instead of posting stupid accusations - of which I really am tired.

I often enough stated that I just don't want to see chainsaw-wielding lasersword-enabled hamster ninjas in ADOM... something that likely would happen as in many other roguelikes just because someone thought that such a feature might be cool.


I don't like his personality. He is too busy to communicate with fans of ADOM, I mean look at his messages. Who acts like that? He could surely improve his social skills.

You pretty clearly prove that you never had to manage a community. Your lack of experience - and your lack of social skills - sadly shows clearly.

Just to give you an idea about what you are talking:


In the heyday of ADOM I spent about 4-6 hours per day (at least) responding to emails and working on the code.
When I was a student that was okay... because I usually could spent that time after 10pm until early in the morning and then sleep till 11am or 12am.
Nowadays I work 10 to 12 hours per day... computer-related. I can guarantee that this somewhat takes the fun out of turning on the computer once again in the evening.
And since my wife also likes to see me and I usually get up around 6am for work it's rather hard to spend time both responding to fans and do anything with the game.
Because every minute taken from doing some work (like communicating) is a minute not available for some kind of work.


And just that you don't misunderstand: I'm not complaining. I love every minute of what I am doing. And I'm sad for every time I start something with JADE or ADOM and don't manage to finish it. But I keep doing my best and I am pretty relaxed about what others might think about it since I can't do more than my best. It's that simple.

But you are welcome to support ADOM... by for example spending an hour per evening on transferring all the reasonable bugs from the old bug database to the new system... and cleaning duplicates... improving ncomprehensible messages... etc. Do that for two weeks - and try at the same time to have a full work day, a social life and fun and you will most likely recognize the stupidity of your post.

And for every such posting I feel reaffirmed about not releasing the sources either - just because it prevents some folks from annoying folks from harassing me with "Look am my c00l Uber-ADOM with chainsaw-wielding hamster ninjas... how do you like it?" statements.

Thanks for listening.

Thomas

fazisi
04-11-2010, 09:53 PM
TB, you shouldn't have even dignified that moron with a response. I checked out his laptop's webcam and this is what he was doing.

http://www.guitarsandaudio.com/extras/shite/Trolling%202.jpg

Al-Khwarizmi
04-11-2010, 11:02 PM
Feedback from Steam users welcome!


Well, I use Steam as a player, not as a game distributor, so I can only tell you what I see as a player.

The auto-update feature does exist. It can be configured in a per-game basis. In my list of games, I can right-click any of them, go to "Properties", "Updates", and choose whether I want to update it automatically or not. If I have chosen yes, it updates in a transparent way when I open Steam (if there is an update, of course). If I have chosen no, it doesn't. Updates can also be paused and resumed.

Unfortunately I don't know what happens if a game does not have backwards save compatibility. The games I have on Steam are either classics that don't update, or multiplayer games where one doesn't save.

By the way: please don't listen to the people that insult you for not releasing the source. I think I speak for 99% of the people in this community when I say that I fully respect your right to decide if you will release the source someday or not. But whatever your decision is, it would be sad if it were conditioned by the whinings of the 1% disrespectful ones. I think you shouldn't pay them that much heed.

gut
04-11-2010, 11:22 PM
I just looked through the guy's 16 (woot) posts.
All of them were trolls, except one about telescope lenses :P

Ybirk
04-12-2010, 02:35 AM
I think anything that moves ADOM forward is great. Although, would I be the only one that might still play 1.11? Because I'm finally getting good enough to use some of the bugs to my advantage.

Angelus
04-12-2010, 07:48 AM
I often enough stated that I just don't want to see chainsaw-wielding lasersword-enabled hamster ninjas in ADOM... something that likely would happen as in many other roguelikes just because someone thought that such a feature might be cool.

I think that is an excuse, a bad one. Angband might have suffered from poor variants, but who cares? No one plays them. Good things could happen to ADOM in open source development, as happened to Crawl which was saved from the oblivion by Stone Soup team. There could even be an official branch with bugs fixed and features added with your permission.

Nobbse
04-12-2010, 10:20 AM
Personally, I wouldn't like to see changed too much in ADOM anymore. Why? Because ADOM is not only the EXE-File and the good manual - it's also the heap of material You find in the internet to help You through the first steps (the famous guides, the forums, the wikis, ...) . And imagine a new ADOM version that is not compatible to the lot of since long existing information anymore.

The most important thing for a new ADOM version is not working on bugs most of the very new players won't ever see. The most important thing is cleaning up the terminology and information given in the Manual and in the game and thus help the new player. The greatest ADOM experts won't help much here, because they are too used to the strange ADOM world, so they don't see some of the hurdles for new players anymore.


Much of the help I'd like to give new players is quite simple:

- Make sure the reader does understand the difference in the manual between "Praying" for help with "_" and "Praying" with Using a holy symbol as god-o-meter. I would say for "_" command "begging" or "pleading" might be a better term. And is there any information about "crowning" somewhere? And that it only might happen if you are begging with very very high piety on an altar?

- In Play, every new class power You can Use with CTRL-X is introduced to the player at the time he is capable to use it. So why not introducing the special abilities that you can use with "m" ? I wonder how many drakelings died because they didn't remember or knewabout the special skill drakeling spit - it should be introduced to the player. Or what about the exhale sulfur - corruption? The information that the player can use drakel spit now should be given to him. Likewise the information CTRL-I to the new born mindcrafter...

- another thing I'd like to see is an "in-game-save-scumming-option" - after you died you will be given another (f.e.) 10 turns of play (if you want to) just to see what might have happened if You had zapped this wand or read that scroll or drank that potion - but the final outcome after these 10 turns won't be saved anymore

- what about two or three little standard savefiles (a barbarian, a wizard, ... ) , that are included or given with ADOM to have certain distinct situations that can be used in tutorials to explain the keybindings?

Al-Khwarizmi
04-12-2010, 10:34 AM
Personally, I wouldn't like to see changed too much in ADOM anymore. Why? Because ADOM is not only the EXE-File and the good manual - it's also the heap of material You find in the internet to help You through the first steps (the famous guides, the forums, the wikis, ...) . And imagine a new ADOM version that is not compatible to the lot of since long existing information anymore.

Well, I think the webs should follow ADOM and not ADOM follow the webs! But anyway, new versions being released won't stop you from keeping playing 1.1.1 if you want to use the current guides, etc. The current version will probably be archived like the previous ones: http://www.adom.de/adom/archive.php3


The most important thing for a new ADOM version is not working on bugs most of the very new players won't ever see.

Why wouldn't they see them? Thinks like the Khelly crash bug affect new and old players alike, as long as they are skilled enough to get to Khelly. And yes, perhaps you might consider that a player that gets to Khelly is not so "new" anymore... but if the first time you get there you get a crash, you're not likely to keep playing ADOM for long.


- Make sure the reader does understand the difference in the manual between "Praying" for help with "_" and "Praying" with Using a holy symbol as god-o-meter. I would say for "_" command "begging" or "pleading" might be a better term. And is there any information about "crowning" somewhere? And that it only might happen if you are begging with very very high piety on an altar?

Why should there be information about crowning in the manual? These are things that players were supposed to discover for themselves, and it's fine that way IMO. Players who wish to be spoiled about things like that already have the GB or the wiki to get as spoiled as they wish.

I agree the other features you suggest are quite cool, but to me, bugfixes are much more important. Cool features are nice but I'd rather have a stable, balanced game that always works than a game with cool features but with random crashes at some points.

gut
04-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Maybe he meant the bug I submitted. The one about
chatting with Thrundarr for the first time, while having
10K corruption points. Yeah, nobody but me had
trouble with that one for nearly a decade :)

Crowning and smithing are two of the most-asked
questions. A tutorial such as the one available with
Crawl, would be wonderful for new ADOM players.
Took me a long time to figure out how to enter Terinyo
when I first started playing, and only kicked monsters
for the first few days because I didn't understand to
just bump into them.

I've also come to regard some ADOM bugs to be features.
The uber-foo is the best example. I'd honestly hate to
see it go...

The Metro Gnome
04-12-2010, 02:16 PM
I agree with gut (for once) that a cute little window would pop up when you start ADOM for the first time explaining simple commands like < > e T "bump into monsters to attack" "to equip junk press 'i' and then the letter that corresponds to the equipment" and the ever so popular "? then k for the list of commands"

Silfir
04-12-2010, 02:39 PM
Smithing is summarized quite sufficiently in the manual. To every player who comes to a forum with the desire to have something spelled out and explained to them, there's dozens who'll figure it out for themselves. The ADOM manual in general is quite decent.

Also, bugfixes. Do them. I can't recall any bug currently in ADOM that would be worth keeping in as a feature. The crashing bugs destroy characters and cause bad experiences, the exploitable bugs are all unnecessary and cause the game experience to degenerate.

Nobbse
04-12-2010, 03:34 PM
Well, I think the webs should follow ADOM and not ADOM follow the webs! ok
And yes, perhaps you might consider that a player that gets to Khelly is not so "new" anymore... you are a mindreader ;)
but if the first time you get there you get a crash, you're not likely to keep playing ADOM for long. Khelly is an important milestone in the game, so I admit: you are right here.
Why should there be information about crowning in the manual? These are things that players were supposed to discover for themselves, and it's fine that way IMO. Hm, I wonder whether I had ever detected the crowning possibilty by accident without reading guidebooks. (Even knowing about it, it took a long time for me to detect HOW to do it (simply "_" praying on an coaligned altar with high piety) . I feel that because crowning is an important strategical method it should be mentioned ( it's more the pre- and post-crowning where I feel like you) . Even the method how to detect item status with altars and how to produce holy water should be somehow "official info in the manual" because such methods may be known to roguelike veterans but not to the new gamers ADOM wants to reach now.
I agree the other features you suggest are quite cool, but to me, bugfixes are much more important. I see them not only as "nice-to-have-features". I simply thought about that TB's time is a rare resource and should be used as wisely as the 5000 gold by Thrundarr ;) So I thought about what may be both helpful for new players and may be "easy-to-code" for TB that doesn't know the ADOM-code by Heart anymore like 12 years ago. Such features are a "quick win" ("quick win" as a software developement term) for all. The bugs that are still alive in ADOM are probably greater killer bugs. They would have been killed long ago by the creator in the case they would have been killed easily. Just one: the mirror shatters - Perception-decrease works also in dark rooms. I stumbled 2 or 3 times about it. Yes it would be nice if TB would repair it. But I think most players can live with it and for new players are features like those I mentioned more important, especially the 2 or 3 tutorial savefiles. It would be nice if the player had the possibility to produce such tutorial save files. I know that this can be abused to savescumming - so what? Let those save files have a "tutorial water mark" and we have it all - the official savescumming-possibiliy without cheating. You even might have somebody win the game founded on a tutorial save file, so what? The watermark is still there and in the case he kills the watermark in the logfile we all know that he has not cheated us but only cheated himself...

Grey
04-12-2010, 06:33 PM
The ADOM manual in general is quite decent.

Indeed, it's one of the best of any roguelike out there. Possibly *the* best.

Bug fixes are all we want right now. Maybe in future we can consider some neat new features :D

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 09:22 PM
So this is why TB never released the source code. He was just waiting for some platform to appear which could in theory sell couple of ADOM deluxe or whatever. F U man.

Ok, man - try to keep pissing me off and you are out here.

And read my response to your previous drivel. Last warning.

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 09:37 PM
As someone who KNOWS that apple products are WAY WAY overhyped and doesn't really care for them at all - why can't we have ADOM for other/better devices? Maybe even one that embraces open source and won't make you jump through hoops to get it on their store - like Android!!

Make and Android app instead - in my opinion 100000000000x better!

:-)

Why not? iPad is just the first step because I personally love Apple products (despite their price - they just have a level of humane usability that IMHO is unsurpassed - and neither technology nor openness help in that regard - but I also like Android as an idea and my guess would be that - once we have ported ADOM to the iPad - more versions could follow more easily).

And I'm not concerned if you don't like the iPad version but rather would prefer to keep playing the PC version - do so by all means. I'll try to keep the general code base common for all platforms.

Only some selected deluxe features will become "payware". More on that in other responses in this forum.

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 09:39 PM
Personally, I'd like to keep ADOM free. That's what makes it such a great game for me. It's simplicity added with it overly complicated junk make it a really worthwhile game. Sure, most people who already KNOW about ADOM would buy the paid version for whatever, but all those others who don't know about it will probably just ignore it (Like I do with apps for the Ipod that look weird or boring but aren't)

Over all, I saw "Keep ADOM Free!" or KAF for short.

Just to state if for the final time:


ADOM always will be free (as in postcard - I love postcards and I definitely at some point this year will try to post the nicest ones to the blog).
ADOM Deluxe will ask for money for some enhanced features. You can decide if you like them enough to pay or not. Prices will be very moderate and going to cinema still will be more expensive.

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 09:48 PM
Is there any chance of porting this to the iphone/ipod touch? I have an ipod touch and I would definitely pay for the app. I believe iphone apps make quite a bit of revenue and they're great for getting more exposure (with a pc game, you have to rely on online distribution or convincing retailers to stock it).

There are two major technical problems with the iPhone:


The screen is tiny. Getting a good UI for that is extremely hard - if possible at all. I yet have to see an iPhone roguelike I would like to play more than twice.
The iPhone poses major problems to ADOM due to the possibility of interrupts: ADOM never was designed for being interrupted while the PC is conversing with some NPC. And then a phone call comes in and the game needs to be interrupted and saved. Currently this does not work at all and Jochen and I are completely unsure about the work required to get this to work. Probably months. We are talking to the interested investor about it but here we are facing several months of coding work - which means serious money since doing this in our hobby time is unimaginable.



I honestly don't see the iPad catching on, while the phone platform is probably here to stay.

I bet against it :-) The iPad for the first time is a platform that would work for anyone - from a 10 year old child to an 80 year old grandmother. It might need a year or two to catch up with the iPhone but as soon as it gets a camera and video telephony it will be the coolest toy ever. The price will get lowered over time and there is so much more Apple could add to it... but as usual they are very tight about adding too much to fast. And why should they? There is no serious competition out there and technology obviously is not the thing required to win. Just look at the iPhone... one thing it doesn't do very well is being a phone. It's so poor compared to modern business phones, the SMS functionality is a joke, the calendar doesn't even have repeating appointments, etc. A joke. Nonetheless I love my iPhone and would not want to be without it. Like 50+ million others out there.

My bet is on the iPad. Android will rank second but it's to tech-savy. And techiness (and open source - as sad as it is) won't win any design awards. Never has...


The main problem is the interface (which is admittedly a huge problem and I'm guessing it's the reason for porting it to the iPad instead). But I think a simplified version would be just as playable, and since it's a phone game it doesn't have to be a full-length game.

The problem being that a simplification basically would have to be a new implementation. I have ideas about that too - but they are unlikely given our limited time budget.


The nethack ports are ok, but having full-size levels and the entire command set makes even the best port really cumbersome. It made an effort to put the commonly used commands right on the main screen, but I still found myself constantly going into the menu to find a command.

Absolutely.

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 09:51 PM
Oh, I hope "Deluxe" does not mean "Bug Fixed and Constant Updates" (What would be really cool is to choose your birth month)

No. Bug fixes are for all versions. Constant updates will happen according to my timeframe.

"Deluxe" might mean things like

the chance to prevent PC death (on an iPad - where it is harder to cheat)
access to a global highscore list
various cheat modes
special game modes (the various foo man challenges)
a simpler game start
a means to turn off hunger


And so on. Basically options to tweak game play in non-standard ways and adjust the game to your personal preferences. If that's worth something to you that's fine by me. Otherwise it's fine by me, too ;-)

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 09:52 PM
Bugs will be fixed for all ADOM versions since they share the same code base and only differ in platform specific parts.

The new "multitasking" feature of iPhone OS 4 increases the chance for an iPhone release. :D

How is multitasking related to that :-) ? Does it include a means to hibernate a game in the background without having to save it? That actually really might help with an iPhone port since it would take away one major problem of the port ... the UI being the other one.

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 09:57 PM
Exciting news. But I hope it doesn't mean that new ADoM will be iPad only? I'm no fan of those "awesome" portable technologies, for gaming I use my PC and only that. My cellphone is 6 years old and not getting a new one unless this one is beyond repair. I'd have no problem with paying a reasonable price for ADoM deluxe, although I'm more of a Crawl player these days, I'm sure I'd play any new ADoM release. On PC. But if it's iPad only, well... it's new tech, but I'm sure there will be workarounds for that soon enough...

Absolutely. We will support all available platforms for as long as it's technically viable. Especially since Jochen has done an amazing job creating all those ports. There mostly is not much to do... some tweaks for more recent Windows versions possibly but for now we are most concerned with the iPad requirements.

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 10:01 PM
He was giving us hope to get the source code, but now it's lost. It's almost like Alan Wake. All that waiting and now it's available only for X360. Is money really that important?

No. Money is not that important. But it helps. And it's a good way to give something back to Jochen for years of unending support and help with ADOM. And I like money, too ;-)

But if I were mostly interested in money I for now would bury ADOM... because the way to wealth is a hard way and if I were to take bets I (and Jochen) probably could earn more money just doing or daily work.

But there is a fascinating and slim chance with these new media platforms and I just want to try it.

And what's so important about the source code. Play with the Crawl sources... you mentioned them as being excellent (IIRC) and so there should be ample stuff to toy with. What's so important about the ADOM sources?

Sometimes I thing that people want the ADOM sources so much because they can't get them :-)

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 10:06 PM
-I'm not getting iPad. Ever. Even if it was free or if it rained iPads. I feel same about certain other technologies.
-The Deluxe version would have to have everything that Adombot has, and more, otherwise why would we buy it? Still, selling that "cheating enabled" version would be like getting some Creator's approval to cheat. You dont need approval for cheating. And if you dont plan to cheat, you dont need such a Deluxe version.


It won't have that much. For sure. But that's not a problem if you don't want it. I'm honestly and seriously happy if you enjoy the free version. That's enough. And if I receive a postcard once in a while from someone in this wonderful world this is more than enough reward.


[FONT=Courier New]-If Deluxe version will hold bugfixes, I wont be paying for it as I've already learned to live with existing bugs.

The bug fixes always will be in all versions.


[FONT=Courier New]-I wanted Source Code out in the open SOLELY so that progress would finally continue somehow, but it isnt going to happen.

I seriously considered giving the ADOM source to the Apache Software Foundation. Just to be the first game in the ASF :-) But I'm not sure if the ASF would be interested in that. But I like the ASF a lot for its mission.


[FONT=Courier New]-JADE seems to be a hopeless wait in this case. Okay, I understand the Creator having some sort of actual life, but in the end, JADE progress will slow/cease, and players arent going to see much of it.

We'll see ;-)


[FONT=Courier New]-I'm not very motivated about ADOM and JADE anymore, as (virtually) nothing else will (hypothetically) be done about them to make them better than they are right now. Or in case of JADE, playable.


That's you perfect right. Jochen and I just can try to do our best. Not more, not less. And then decide upon whatever course is best for you - that's perfectly ok!

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 10:07 PM
TB, you shouldn't have even dignified that moron with a response. I checked out his laptop's webcam and this is what he was doing.

http://www.guitarsandaudio.com/extras/shite/Trolling%202.jpg

Hey, is that Lake Powell and the vicinity of Page? The town with more churches than anything else :-) ? I have been there four times (and love the area). Sometimes the world is really small :-)

And yes - I'll try to be less flame war oriented. But sometimes I just need to get something out of my ass ;-)

Salajem
04-12-2010, 10:08 PM
someone thought that such a feature might be cool.

I remember that while i wasn't any eager to get it, I saw the idea of the code being released with nice eyes long time ago, too.. In a conversation with a guy named L that wanted the code to be released back then.. I kinda feel regret of having made those my 2 cents about that idea, as this "code releasing" thing it only brought problems, instead of helping at all.. I'm very sorry. :(

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 10:11 PM
Well, I use Steam as a player, not as a game distributor, so I can only tell you what I see as a player.

The auto-update feature does exist. It can be configured in a per-game basis. In my list of games, I can right-click any of them, go to "Properties", "Updates", and choose whether I want to update it automatically or not. If I have chosen yes, it updates in a transparent way when I open Steam (if there is an update, of course). If I have chosen no, it doesn't. Updates can also be paused and resumed.

Unfortunately I don't know what happens if a game does not have backwards save compatibility. The games I have on Steam are either classics that don't update, or multiplayer games where one doesn't save.

Thanks for the input. Sounds a bit complicated for casual gamers but should be manageable in some way. "Steam ADOM" probably would need to explain that to casual gamers but that's not much of a problem.


By the way: please don't listen to the people that insult you for not releasing the source. I think I speak for 99% of the people in this community when I say that I fully respect your right to decide if you will release the source someday or not. But whatever your decision is, it would be sad if it were conditioned by the whinings of the 1% disrespectful ones. I think you shouldn't pay them that much heed.

No way ;-) I have met so many idiots over the past couple of years and the good thing is that for every idiot there are at least two dozen wonderful people out there. No, they won't frustrate me enough - especially since it will be a pleasure to kick idiots out of this turf ;-) On Usenet that was a lot more difficult ;-)

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 10:14 PM
The most important thing for a new ADOM version is not working on bugs most of the very new players won't ever see. The most important thing is cleaning up the terminology and information given in the Manual and in the game and thus help the new player. The greatest ADOM experts won't help much here, because they are too used to the strange ADOM world, so they don't see some of the hurdles for new players anymore.

That's a very good idea and great advice I will heed.



Much of the help I'd like to give new players is quite simple:
- Make sure the reader does understand the difference in the manual between "Praying" for help with "_" and "Praying" with Using a holy symbol as god-o-meter. I would say for "_" command "begging" or "pleading" might be a better term. And is there any information about "crowning" somewhere? And that it only might happen if you are begging with very very high piety on an altar?

- In Play, every new class power You can Use with CTRL-X is introduced to the player at the time he is capable to use it. So why not introducing the special abilities that you can use with "m" ? I wonder how many drakelings died because they didn't remember or knewabout the special skill drakeling spit - it should be introduced to the player. Or what about the exhale sulfur - corruption? The information that the player can use drakel spit now should be given to him. Likewise the information CTRL-I to the new born mindcrafter...

- another thing I'd like to see is an "in-game-save-scumming-option" - after you died you will be given another (f.e.) 10 turns of play (if you want to) just to see what might have happened if You had zapped this wand or read that scroll or drank that potion - but the final outcome after these 10 turns won't be saved anymore

- what about two or three little standard savefiles (a barbarian, a wizard, ... ) , that are included or given with ADOM to have certain distinct situations that can be used in tutorials to explain the keybindings?

All these suggestions are very interesting. Please submit them to the ADOM project management tool (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?projectid=2).

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 10:15 PM
I agree with gut (for once) that a cute little window would pop up when you start ADOM for the first time explaining simple commands like < > e T "bump into monsters to attack" "to equip junk press 'i' and then the letter that corresponds to the equipment" and the ever so popular "? then k for the list of commands"

Also a very good suggestion. Please submit it to the ADOM project management tool (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?projectid=2).

adom-admin
04-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Indeed, it's one of the best of any roguelike out there. Possibly *the* best.

Bug fixes are all we want right now. Maybe in future we can consider some neat new features :D

And you won't get more in the near future (mostly) since I need time to "get back into the code". Which is quote difficult. And I can't say for sure how successful I will be since the task is monumental ;-)

jt
04-12-2010, 10:23 PM
Does it include a means to hibernate a game in the background without having to save it?
Yes, OS4 has a new feature called "fast app switching" that allows exactly that. I don't know the details since I haven't downloaded the beta yet. But it looks like this could help to solve the "interrupt" problem.

The Metro Gnome
04-12-2010, 11:42 PM
Have fun re-learning C++ Tommy!

Grey
04-13-2010, 12:06 AM
Sometimes I thing that people want the ADOM sources so much because they can't get them :-)

Very true. I don't think you help with the odd tease though ;)

Al-Khwarizmi
04-13-2010, 01:33 AM
Sometimes I thing that people want the ADOM sources so much because they can't get them :-)

Well, I personally wanted them because after so many years without updates, I wanted to see bugfixes and I wouldn't have liked to see ADOM die. Now that there are going to be bugfixes and updates, I don't care so much about the sources.

mike3
04-13-2010, 08:30 AM
Actually I believe that there is one more reason why TB never released source code of ADOM. That reason is socially retarded(look at readme file) people like you. He spend hunderds/thousands hours on programming ADOM, and he's letting people play his game completly for free. And instead of appreciate his work and fact that he's letting you play his game for free, you're telling him "fuck you" just because he doesn't want to release source code of HIS game?

He didn't promised over a year ago that sources will be released - he was just thinking about it. Obviously he decided that they won't be released, it's his right. Instead of whining and cursing, why don't you write your own game like Adom?

And then those who don't say "f**k you" to TB also can't get the code?

mike3
04-13-2010, 08:51 AM
And for every such posting I feel reaffirmed about not releasing the sources either - just because it prevents some folks from annoying folks from harassing me with "Look am my c00l Uber-ADOM with chainsaw-wielding hamster ninjas... how do you like it?" statements.

Thanks for listening.

Thomas

However, not everyone is that way. I, for example, would like to see the code not because I'd want to inject some stupid horse manure into it and gloat about it, but just to learn from it and see the types of algorithms used and to answer curiosity questions (and also just to see what it looks like, how it's coded, etc. for fun). Even if you never want to release it ever at all, one thing I'd still like to know is the answers to the "mysteries" (red rooster, etc.) in there. Does the "strange *TCHUNK*" room effect actually do anything or not? This one I'd love to get an official response to as it would help get me some closure on something that caused me a lot of emotional grief when I was younger (this is a long story, but if you want to hear, I'll tell you, though I'd prefer to take this to private mail then). The answers to these questions would be nearly as satisfying to me as a source code release, so even if you don't want to do the latter, I think it would be nice of you to do the former. I'm pretty sure "*TCHUNK*" does nothing, but to hear that from the maker himself would really be something I'd appreciate.

mike3
04-13-2010, 08:53 AM
As for more ADOM updates, will you (Thomas) release new free versions of ADOM with bugfixes (and for PC, too)?

Al-Khwarizmi
04-13-2010, 09:26 AM
As for more ADOM updates, will you (Thomas) release new free versions of ADOM with bugfixes (and for PC, too)?

He said he is going to do it, a bunch of posts above in this same thread.

Angelus
04-13-2010, 09:43 AM
Play with the Crawl sources... you mentioned them as being excellent

No, I did not. I don't know how much Stone Soup team has improved the source code, but the original source code was a total mess. Stone Soup guys are heroes, they took almost an impossible job to use Crawl's horrible source code.


What's so important about the ADOM sources?

The fact that you haven't done anything to ADOM for years. No bug fixes, no nothing. Maybe someone else could?

mike3
04-13-2010, 09:56 AM
No, I did not. I don't know how much Stone Soup team has improved the source code, but the original source code was a total mess. Stone Soup guys are heroes, they took almost an impossible job to use Crawl's horrible source code.


I've heard in some of Biskup's interviews that the ADOM code is messy. You sure you'd want it?


The fact that you haven't done anything to ADOM for years. No bug fixes, no nothing. Maybe someone else could?

He just said now that he would do that stuff. So then it's kind of moot, no?

gut
04-13-2010, 10:03 AM
I don't think Angelus should be banned. He's not influencing
anyone's opinion, and adults can always ignore what they
consider to be trolls. The forum even has an 'ignore' feature,
for goodness sakes. The more you respond...

I'll just call everyone who feeds trolls NOOBS : D

I have found a few bugs in the manual and readme files,
so I will also report them in the project tool location. I
suspect a number of manual items didn't get updated in
the version changes, but I have only found some magic
related ones.

mike3
04-13-2010, 10:06 AM
"Angelus" plonked :)

Laukku
04-13-2010, 06:29 PM
I think that is an excuse, a bad one.

TB wrote the code himself. It is his work. He owns all rights to it. He can do anything with it he wishes to do, and he needs no excuses.

He can release it, not release it, continue working on it, delete it from his hard drive, whatever. No one can tell him that he must do this or that - he has complete freedom to do anything with it he feels like doing.

Angelus
04-13-2010, 07:55 PM
He can release it, not release it, continue working on it, delete it from his hard drive, whatever. No one can tell him that he must do this or that - he has complete freedom to do anything with it he feels like doing.

Yes, stating the obvious. That doesn't change certain things like TB keeping ADOM in frozen state for years. Who doesn't have time to fix a couple of critical bugs? And now, after all this time it's time to go Apple. With all that talking about Apple using child workers in China, who is supporting that kind of company? Not to mention the Apple way of doing software development. It has to be money and I don't have to like it. The way TB is acting is a shame, really, because ADOM is one of the better roguelikes.

Grey
04-13-2010, 08:08 PM
Next up: ADOM is linked to Nazi Germany for it's incompatibility with palmtops!

fazisi
04-13-2010, 08:17 PM
Godwin's Law is proven once more.

Silfir
04-13-2010, 08:22 PM
List of things that are wrong with TB doing nothing about ADOM for eight years:



End of list.

You don't have to like Apple and you don't have to like the iADOM project and you can name your reasons for that (however off-the-wall), but you could kindly stop whining and bitching and moaning about Thomas' life choices.

vogonpoet
04-13-2010, 09:59 PM
Awesome idea for ADOM Deluxe:

1/ Allow blind PCs to be generated as an option on start-up.
2/ Adjust code so that blind PCs are able to put the orbs in the elemental anomalies. Possibly make it Dex dependent or something? I mean come on, if a permanently blind PC can get as far as D48, mucking around with anomalies should be easy.
3/ Watch Soirana go insane :-D

Dudley
04-14-2010, 07:01 AM
With all that talking about Apple using child workers in China, who is supporting that kind of company?

Me. Because :
1) If you stop buying stuff made by poor china children, you have a fairly small life expectancy
2) That's called propaganda. Did you know that windows was the one who invented the iConcept? Simply, the company said to the researching branch it wouldn't work, so they sold it to apple. I'll support Apple for being much more efficiet than windows.

gut
04-14-2010, 08:44 AM
A message to all of the "people" who keep responding to Angelus's trolls:
You are proving that he (she) is smarter than you :D

I find myself actually liking this person a lot! That's not sarcasm btw.
This guy is even getting reactions out of the admin : )
Keep up da good work my man.

mike3
04-14-2010, 11:21 PM
A message to all of the "people" who keep responding to Angelus's trolls:
You are proving that he (she) is smarter than you :D

I find myself actually liking this person a lot! That's not sarcasm btw.
This guy is even getting reactions out of the admin : )
Keep up da good work my man.

Why do you go and support/encourage the troll?

Silfir
04-14-2010, 11:52 PM
Like watches over like?

Grey
04-15-2010, 12:12 AM
In more pressing news, and utterly unrelated, we could rather do with a purge of spambots. There seem to be a lot of similar 0 posts accounts with links in their signatures - I'm quite worried they could all start posting some time and lay waste to the forums... Perhaps all accounts with 0 posts should be e-mailed and deleted if they don't respond within a certain timeframe? Seems like the entry question for the forum should be changed too since the code has been cracked (and thus will be leaked to numerous more bots).

I'm posting this here in the hope that TB actually notices :)

gut
04-15-2010, 08:53 AM
> Why do you go and support/encourage the troll?

I already spelled that out : )

I even pointed out to everyone that he only has a
few posts in this forum, and they are almost all,
um, kinda contraversial. Yet he still continues to
get reactions out of everyone. It's like people think
they owe him explainations, or feel like it is their
duty to correct his wrongheaded thoughts. I think
that's hilarious.

It's like someone saying "Hey everybody, there is a
bee hive here, don't step on it." Then they hang a
sign over the hive saying "DON'T STEP HERE, YOU
WILL ANGER THE BEES!" Finaly, they set a recording
on autorepeat, blaring "GO AROUND THIS BEEHIVE!"
So they travel along their merry way, thinking all is
safe for bees and man alike. From the distance they
hear "Arrrgh! Stupid dees! How could I have known!?"
Then they hear frustrated grumbling about the bees,
threats to exterminate the bees, and curses on the bees'
ancestors and descendants for years to come.

Comedy just doesn't come better than that :D

EDIT: at least the 'javascriptbank' bot tries to be useful : )

Silfir
04-15-2010, 10:47 AM
I have no clue who this guy is to begin with. Am I supposed to keep track of usernames of "known" trolls so I know to ignore them later?

gut
04-15-2010, 12:16 PM
Works more like this:

Poster1 - I think TB iz a big fart head! Give uz da zource!

Poster2 - Hey everybody, I just found a bug in the
keybindings file. It says:

> # \Mx -- press the control key and some key x (for letters use the the lowercase letter)
> # \Cx -- press the control key and some key x

but it should say

# \Mx -- press the ALT key and some key x (for letters use the (only one 'the') lowercase letter)
# \Cx -- press the control key and some key x

See how much better that worked out :D

mike3
04-15-2010, 07:19 PM
> Why do you go and support/encourage the troll?

I already spelled that out : )

I even pointed out to everyone that he only has a
few posts in this forum, and they are almost all,
um, kinda contraversial. Yet he still continues to
get reactions out of everyone. It's like people think
they owe him explainations, or feel like it is their
duty to correct his wrongheaded thoughts. I think
that's hilarious.


But doesn't encouraging him just make you like any
other, and if not, be even worse? It'd be like going and
annoying the bees in your bee hive example now and
then (maybe from a distance) so they'll go and sting
somebody. Though you might not be going in there,
you'd nonetheless be encouraging other people to do
it, or ensuring that "harm" comes to them?

Silfir
04-15-2010, 10:43 PM
Basically, like yelling "YEAH YOU KICKASS BEES STING THOSE FUCKERS! RIGHT ON!"

gut
04-15-2010, 11:16 PM
Only if I saw a bee sting someone that ignored
all of the many (and blaringly obvious) warning
signs would I applaud.

> STING THOSE FUCKERS! RIGHT ON!"

Indeed :D

Angelus did everything short of having "I'm
trolling yo" as a sig, and you guys still bite : )

Silfir
04-15-2010, 11:51 PM
Point taken. This might be a good point to un-derail the thread. Rerail it, I guess?

fazisi
04-16-2010, 07:22 AM
I thought the image I posted was a good indication too.

As for adom-admin's recognition of the town in the background: No, I have never been. That was just one of the images from a Google Image search for the keyword "trolling".

gut
04-16-2010, 10:31 AM
http://i42.tinypic.com/rk5zwk.jpg

Grey
04-16-2010, 06:48 PM
Better image :)

http://sites.google.com/site/darrenjohngrey/games/troll.png

fazisi
04-17-2010, 04:07 AM
I dislike how people seem to connect internet trolling to the mythical creature, trolls. It is clearly from the practice of trolling for dumb fish, attempting to catch multiple fools with your bait.

Angelus
04-17-2010, 07:40 PM
Calling someone a troll is an "internet argument". It's not a real argument, it merely shows that you don't want to listen. Grow up guys.

Silfir
04-17-2010, 08:03 PM
Wouldn't "Grow up guys" also have to be an internet argument?

The Metro Gnome
04-17-2010, 09:06 PM
There's a famous saying, "Little girls grow up to be women, and little boys grow up to be bigger boys."

Unforgiven82
04-18-2010, 07:58 AM
Somehow when I got to these forums I thought that adom players must be old enough not to warrant a troll tree pages of discussion. Just the fact he succeeded tells something about him, you (and me for writing this) ;)

That being said I really hope this is the last post about the subject. If you want to discuss trolling please make a new thread about it.

dallonj
04-19-2010, 01:50 AM
That being said I really hope this is the last post about the subject. If you want to discuss trolling please make a new thread about it.

troll beastfighters are unstoppable rat-eating rock-saccing machines!!

Evil Knievel
04-19-2010, 10:22 AM
troll beastfighters are unstoppable rat-eating rock-saccing machines!!

Indeed! I have one going right now that startet out with 35 strength and 27 toughness... and although I chose 'learned' he has Le: 3 ... ;)

Now at level 11 he is really unstoppable... apart from that ghost that made him grow up to be a bigger boy ... giving him strength 36 ;) (trolls growing up seem to only increase stats...!)

EDIT: it was that one ... http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=10827