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View Full Version : iADOM - how big is your interest?



jt
07-11-2010, 09:19 AM
I hope Thomas doesn't mind... I started this poll with the intention to check how many of you are really interested in the creation of iADOM. ADOM is a very complex game which probably doesn't appeal to the "casual" gamer that only wants to shoot zombies/cut fruits for a few minutes while waiting for the bus.

Even if you get the interface "right" (the port of BattleDuel to the iPhone shows me that even a very reduced interface might be too complex for the "casual" gamer), there probably will be enough people criticizing the graphics (what, only ASCII-text?) and the lack of sound. I fear the target audience of iADOM would be restricted to a very small group of people (only the "hard core" ADOM players having an iPad).

Personally, I think the iPad is a very cool gaming platform and the first alpha versions of iADOM work quite well.

So, what's your opinion?

Silfir
07-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Games such as Dwarf Fortress (Penny Arcade-endorsed, among other things) have raised the ASCII tolerance of a lot of players. I've gotten several comments and subscribers on Youtube to the effect of "Cool, this looks a lot like Dwarf Fortress". As far as I can see from other forums, ADOM is still the third most popular roguelike after Dwarf Fortress and Nethack (big forums such as those of OotS have very popular ADOM Let's play threads, for instance), and this after an eight year lull in updates. Both Dwarf Fortress and Nethack offer tilesets, however, and the same goes for the iPhone and iPad roguelikes already in existence (Powder, Nethack adaptations, Rogue Touch). In other words, ADOM does appear to be the most popular roguelike which does not offer a tileset. So if there's one ASCII-only roguelike that could work out on the iPad, it's ADOM.

Well, anyway... I don't own an iPad and never will, so an honest answer would be "no". But I think, especially if you include the Dwarf Fortress crowd, there is a definite overlap between "iPad owner" and "Might be interested in roguelikes".

gut
07-11-2010, 11:08 AM
> iADOM - how big is your interest?

Ipad - how big is my interest?

zero

Grey
07-11-2010, 03:20 PM
There's alpha versions already? I suppose just for your enjoyment, Jochen?

Epythic
07-11-2010, 04:05 PM
I personally find the idea of iADOM laughable and can not understand at all why TB wishes to spend any time on it. But then I find most of Apples products laughable.

For one, I don't see why I would need a >500$ phone. Also, I already have a laptop that can do a whole lot more that the overprized, locked-down iPad (wake me up when I can install Linux on it... without voiding the warranty, of course) I mean, their products look nice, but thats about it.

@Grey: I bet he's also been testing JADE for years now :(
Now thats something I want.

Grey
07-11-2010, 04:14 PM
Ack, what would we do if JADE was released as iPad exclusive?! (just trying to scare people)

jt
07-11-2010, 04:41 PM
There's alpha versions already? I suppose just for your enjoyment, Jochen?

Well, I have a fully playable version on my iPad. This is not surprising since I'm the one who has done most of the development work in this respect. But the game is not really enjoyable yet, it will probably take some time to create a user friendly interface.

As for JADE, no, I don't have access to it. Only saw it live for a few times. Since JADE is programmed in Java there is no way to run it on an iPhone/iPad. And I seriously doubt Thomas has any interest in rewriting all of the code in Objective C. :D

Silfir
07-11-2010, 04:48 PM
In all fairness to the iPad, its viability or lack thereof is definitely not tied to its ability to run a Linux OS. And this thread really, really shouldn't be used to pour on the hate on the iPad, justified or not. Whoever out here owns an iPad: It's okay. If you're going to buy iADOM as a consequence once it is released, that more than makes up for it! We love you! Just get in here and say so! :)

I don't think this forum will provide particularly reliable figures. The "hardcore" crowd is naturally overrepresented because you have to be pretty crazy to regularly visit, let alone post in, a forum about a computer role-playing game eight years after its last release, JADE updates or not. Again, ADOM may have fallen asleep, but roguelikes are still as fashionable as ever thanks to Dwarf Fortress.

jt
07-11-2010, 04:59 PM
I don't think this forum will provide particularly reliable figures. The "hardcore" crowd is naturally overrepresented
Exactly, and I always thought these hardcore players would be "crazy" enough to even buy an iPad to play their favorite roguelike game!? ;)

JellySlayer
07-11-2010, 06:36 PM
If I were to buy an iPad, I would almost certainly get iAdom with it. As to the whole getting the iPad, part, well, we'll see. My wife really likes the idea of the iPad, so that may influence my decision a bit ;)

I think I, like probably many of the players here, are more excited about the possibility of a forthcoming update to ADOM itself than about being able to port ADOM to a different platform.

Silfir
07-11-2010, 06:53 PM
If it were a Nintendo DS, which you could buy used for 50 euros or something and which is the platform for boatloads of games now and in the future, maybe I would indeed specifically buy one just to play ADOM (I more or less bought one specifically to play Pokémon, back in the day, though I also took into consideration that I would be playing more, other DS games).

The problem with the iPad is that, right now, it's just too hilariously expensive to get for a game that you can essentially play on just about any stationary platform (thanks in part to your own work :) ), if you aren't otherwise attracted to it. Just by the monetary decisions involved, it's much, much easier to convince an iPad owner to try out iADOM than to convince an ADOM player to buy an iPad. It takes a very special (namely, rich) kind of crazy to make such a purchase solely to be able to play ADOM on a couch or on the bus. We didn't all take Wealthy - Very Wealthy - Filthy Rich - Boon to the Family when we entered the Drakalor Chain (though quite a bunch of us did take Miser).

zasvid
07-11-2010, 07:09 PM
Well, I won't be buying any iStuff anytime soon (or ever, probably), but if I were... hmmm, I probably wouldn't touch ADOM without ADOM Sage after years of enjoying that and from what I know about doing stuff for iProducts I guess it would be a real hassle to get ADOM Sage for iADOM. So I'd stick to standard ways of enjoying ADOM if that wouldn't work out.

Though I suspect that after years of playing ADOM with the standard keyboard interface, a new interface for iADOM would be undigestable anyway.

Really, I think that iADOM is not gonna succeed on the base of its current fanbase, but you've got a shot at a new market and I think it's a good shot - Silfir's analysis on the effect of Dwarf Fortress' influence in the gaming world is accurate IMO.

dallonj
07-12-2010, 01:05 AM
i probably won't buy it, but if TB can make some money off it i'm all for it. that way he can focus less on working at a job and more on JADE. he should sell some t shirts or artwork or signed posters or stuff. maybe sign autographs at malls

gut
07-12-2010, 04:36 AM
> he should sell some t shirts or artwork or signed posters or stuff.

If I saw someone wearing a rl shirt, I'd beat them up, even if it were ADOM.

>maybe sign autographs at malls

doh

fazisi
07-12-2010, 05:13 AM
If TB made a t-shirt with the "high king" comic i made on it, I would buy it.

gut
07-12-2010, 08:22 AM
Now THAT is different!
Shirts from the 'dwarf merchant paint' thread would
be too awesome for words.

CheatMan
07-12-2010, 09:10 AM
hmmm.

I'm in a bit of a philosophical self-argument. I don't know how i'm supposed to fit in this poll...

I'm not a fan of apple because of my opinion of its corporate policies and mannerisms so i will never own an apple product of any kind.

However, i'm anxiously hoping for a speedy iADOM release only for the bugfixes to ADOM that may come with it.

So yes, I am extremely interested in iADOM, but will never actually USE nor download iADOM.

Having said that, if I answer yes to this poll i'm falsely increasing predictions in iADOM popularity; but if I answer no and the project doesn't get enough popularity to warrant taking work away from JADE/some other project so ADOM doesn't get its bugfixes would make me really bummed out.

What do i do??

nathrakh
07-12-2010, 09:30 AM
I think it's waste of TB's precious time and oppose it.

Just stick to JADE and do those small bugfixes to ADOM and release 1.1.2.

CheatMan
07-12-2010, 09:33 AM
I think it's waste of TB's precious time and oppose it.

Just stick to JADE and do those small bugfixes to ADOM and release 1.1.2.

porting to iApple would only waste Jochen's time and not TB's if i understand the TB/JT dynamic correctly...

adom-admin
07-12-2010, 10:12 AM
Ack, what would we do if JADE was released as iPad exclusive?!

:-) I never considered that and thanks due to Steve Jobs rather permissible stance on programming languages for iPad/iPhone there is no risk of that ever happening. JADE is written in Java and Java is not available on iAnything, so there you go ;-)

Android is a different matter though. But never mobile-only.

Orbic
07-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Not sure. To keep it N= of course!
If I ever own an ipad, why not? But I do not see that likely to happen within the next decade or so... maybe after a brainwash of some sort followed by a thourough ipersuasion course?
It looks more like a technical challenge than a market from my point of view, so I'm glad if it makes it through - just for the satisfaction of completing a challenge.

Grey
07-12-2010, 04:36 PM
:-) I never considered that and thanks due to Steve Jobs rather permissible stance on programming languages for iPad/iPhone there is no risk of that ever happening. JADE is written in Java and Java is not available on iAnything, so there you go ;-)

Android is a different matter though. But never mobile-only.

Android would be cool, but I can't see JADE managing to run well on a little ARM processor. Still, it'd be one extra reason for me to get a fancy new phone...

If iADOM gets released on the iPhone 4 then I'll pay my girlfriend to download it (since she recently got one of those). I have to say POWDER works quite well on it, though I still have trouble imagining a good ADOM interface for such a small screen. iPad seems much easier to port to, but ultimately is such an exclusive gadget. Still, I think there are enough roguelikers in general that would buy it, even if the hardcore ADOM community is less receptive.

fazisi
07-12-2010, 07:47 PM
Uhhh, I think you might be mistaken... I was under the impression that all iPhone apps were Java based.

Silfir
07-12-2010, 08:53 PM
Nope. No Java support. I think you can trust Thomas Biskup and wikipedia on this one ;)

Angelus
07-13-2010, 01:51 PM
I personally find the idea of iADOM laughable and can not understand at all why TB wishes to spend any time on it.

I guess it's for money, because people actually buy i-games. And iPads/phones. I can't see any other reason to make games to hilariously stupid platform like iPad.

gut
07-13-2010, 06:58 PM
I did briefly look up the iPad only because of ADOM's possible link
to it. It seems rather like a very small notebook to me. Is there a
drastic distinction/advantage which does escape me?

Grey
07-13-2010, 07:19 PM
It's expensive, but has a cool looking touchscreen. And Apple geeks obviously spontaneously ejaculate when they see one. Personally I prefer cheap netbooks.

fazisi
07-13-2010, 09:18 PM
Netbooks are crap. iPad is slightly better crap. It really depends on the person's requirements for a platform. iPad is exceptionally good for very casual mobile computer users.

Epythic
07-15-2010, 03:02 PM
I guess it's for money, because people actually buy i-games. And iPads/phones. I can't see any other reason to make games to hilariously stupid platform like iPad.

I don't think so. (http://www.quinscape.de/opencms/web/de/referenzen/tbiskup.html)

I don't know what exactly a "gesch?ftsf?hrender Gesellschafter" (managing partner) is, but it doesn't sound like a low-paid position :) Whatever his motivation, its propably not money.

(On the other hand, those apple products are relatively "in" right now, maybe he just wants to get ADOM to a broader audience... again. I'd applaud *that*, but I still wont buy an iPad and would very much prefer a timely JADE release)


Netbooks are crap. iPad is slightly better crap. It really depends on the person's requirements for a platform. iPad is exceptionally good for very casual mobile computer users.
More expensive, not better. I mean, I can install Linux on a netbook :)

vogonpoet
07-15-2010, 09:37 PM
maybe he just wants to get ADOM to a broader audience... again. I'd applaud *that*

Indeed - I guess if they do a good job on the interface, it could be pretty successful, and yeah, somehow I don't think Herr Doktor Biskup is short of a few bob- ADOM will most likely remain more about love than money.

Still, if iADOM explodes and makes millililliions, bringing the release of JADE out of the chaos plane and into the realm of reality, so much the better :)

Al-Khwarizmi
07-16-2010, 05:24 PM
As some previous posters, I won't answer the poll because the answer may be "Yes!" or "No!" depending on which kind of interest we are referring to. Instead I'll describe my position as follows:

1. I don't have an iPad and I will never be interested in one. So I won't buy iAdom.
2. If I *had* an iPad, I would definitely buy iAdom.
3. I am personally interested in iAdom anyway due to the bugfixes that are supposed to come to the PC version with it.
4. I would pay for an improved PC version with bugfixes. I think TB deserves payment for the immense work he has done with ADOM, it's just that I'm not going to pay for an Apple app when I don't use, like or support that platform.

Epythic
07-16-2010, 05:49 PM
I think TB deserves payment for the immense work he has done with ADOM, it's just that I'm not going to pay for an Apple app when I don't use, like or support that platform.

Did you send him a postcard then? He seems to like those...

Angelus
07-17-2010, 10:34 AM
somehow I don't think Herr Doktor Biskup is short of a few bob- ADOM will most likely remain more about love than money.

Well I think Dr. Mario is too much after money. Just think of it. He practically stopped development of ADOM when he got his job. Not a single update to fix any bugs whatsoever. And only now when he sees an opportunity to get cash out of ADOM he is making a version for Apple device. You have to be a devoted fanboy for not to realize that.

Silfir
07-17-2010, 10:40 AM
And you have to be a blistering idiot for posting asinine drivel like that.

vogonpoet
07-17-2010, 11:29 AM
Well I think

I'm not sure you do, but whatever. All over the web, the pros and cons of Apple products are debated, often vehemently - in fact, the relative lack of flaming in this thread is practically a miracle. Anyway, in all the millions of fanboi/h8er threads, the one anti-apple argument I have never seen is the "ha ha, iPads suck cos you can't play any of the classic roguelikes from the previous century on them, get a lenovo, looser" argument.

Clearly jochen and thomas do not hate apple products, and if they can make some money out of iADOM, all power to them, but I suspect they won't be giving up their day jobs, and if the development of iADOM leads to the release of a Kelly-Krash-free windoze version, then awesome.

Al-Khwarizmi
07-17-2010, 11:37 AM
Did you send him a postcard then? He seems to like those...

I did that, many years ago, although I might send another now that I live in a different place :)

CheatMan
07-17-2010, 04:16 PM
Well I think Dr. Mario is too much after money. Just think of it. He practically stopped development of ADOM when he got his job. Not a single update to fix any bugs whatsoever. And only now when he sees an opportunity to get cash out of ADOM he is making a version for Apple device. You have to be a devoted fanboy for not to realize that.

....

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww144/pakkit/boxxy-trolling.jpg

vogonpoet
07-17-2010, 05:44 PM
You tell him Boxy.

In other news,

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :mad:

Just lost my best ever Healer to a crash on the level below the Dwarven Halls. Level 18, had the bracers of war, the scorched spear, a spear of mayhem, a pickaxe of penetration, everything was moving along nicely, I sit there watching an amusing threatening orc tension room, traps are going off left right and centre, and ten bang, game crashes.

I don't mind dying to stone blocks, doppleganger kings, or molochs in the arena, but crashes??? Arrrgh.
Please guys, lets see a bug free ADOM one day, I beseech ye.

CheatMan
07-17-2010, 05:53 PM
I feel your pain Vogon, i lost a char that had a murderous orcish spear of devestation when i gave the AoLS to Khelly.


I know, I know... it's a common crash and i should've backed up before i handed that over, but i was so excited to open up an ultra that i just n00bishly turbo'd the give. and BAM. no more uber spear.

gut
07-17-2010, 06:36 PM
> ha ha, iPads suck cos you can't play any of the classic roguelikes from the previous century on them

That made me laugh : )

Oh yeah, angelus already told me that calling him a troll
is just an 'internet argument', so that makes him not a
troll. Somehow. Just figured I'd pass that along.

CheatMan
07-17-2010, 07:01 PM
> ha ha, iPads suck cos you can't play any of the classic roguelikes from the previous century on them

That made me laugh : )

Oh yeah, angelus already told me that calling him a troll
is just an 'internet argument', so that makes him not a
troll. Somehow. Just figured I'd pass that along.

I know, but i hoped that the sight of boxxy might compel him to realize that we don't care about his opinion and go back to /b/

Angelus
07-17-2010, 10:18 PM
Clearly jochen and thomas do not hate apple products

I guess it's good for developers, because people now have a new product and they want to buy games for it. And they buy like anything, old classics and anything that looks like a game. It's a heaven for developers who just want to make money out of minimum effort.


and if they can make some money out of iADOM, all power to them

What do you care if Dr. Mario gets more money?

dallonj
07-18-2010, 03:11 AM
What do you care if Dr. Mario gets more money?

what the fuck do you care? arent you that guy who kept bitching about how you needed the source code? you seem like a douche

Angelus
07-18-2010, 07:14 AM
what the fuck do you care?

I'm a game developer myself and I like roguelike games. So I care a lot about these things.


arent you that guy who kept bitching about how you needed the source code?

I don't need it, I already have two source codes I'm working on. For roguelike players open source ADOM would be really good news. TB is just an ass. He doesn't care about players and fans of ADOM a bit. He just wants money from iADOM. Well, let him have it if that's what he wants so much.

jt
07-18-2010, 08:26 AM
I'm a game developer myself
Then you know that creating/testing/porting a game is a lot of effort. I've done all my work on ADOM for free in my spare time. And iADOM is more about the challenge than about the money. We could even release it for free, you know!?

CheatMan
07-18-2010, 08:40 AM
Then you know that creating/testing/porting a game is a lot of effort. I've done all my work on ADOM for free in my spare time. And iADOM is more about the challenge than about the money. We could even release it for free, you know!?

I was just gonna mention that releasing it for jailbroken iOS wouldn't require payment, but didn't know if you guys considered it or not.

jt
07-18-2010, 08:53 AM
Surely someone will provide a cracked version of iADOM once it's available (happened to BattleDuel after about a week), so I don't think we have to do that ourselfs. :mad:

vogonpoet
07-18-2010, 10:23 AM
What do you care if Dr. Mario gets more money?

Err, I am beginning to see why some people think you are a troll.

Dude, you are the one who seems to be upset by the possibility of Thomas making some money, whereas much as I respect the Creator for having made a brilliant computer game, he seems to be doing quite well in life as far as I can tell, and is not in danger of starvation, so I really don't care one way or the other. If iADOM brings the computer games industry to its knees, makes billions, and allows Thomas to buy out Apple, leading to a iPAD-lead ASCII renaissance, which in turn inspires many more independent developers to release ASCII based games as cool as ADOM 2.1, Dwarf Fortress 1.0, and JADE 0.5, then that's cool. Or, if iADOM is released for free and is downloaded by just 15 apple lovers who are so inspired by the game that this forum gets a couple of extra members contributing regularly to the TH debate, then that's cool too.

Lighten up man.

Silfir
07-18-2010, 12:52 PM
Angelus, you're either trying to troll this forum or you have a serious problem with reality. There is this "Thomas not releasing the source code makes him a douche" position, then there is "Thomas is offering up iADOM for money, therefore all he cares about is the money".

The first position is pretty damned ludicrous and only has a point from a very free-and-open-software-minded viewpoint. Yes, there are people out there who might potentially learn a thing or two from Thomas' source code, and his refusal to release it prevents this from happening. Does that make Thomas a douche? Possibly, if you follow a code of beliefs that champions the open source cause over any individual considerations, and you extend that code of beliefs to anyone else regardless of whether they follow these beliefs or not. So it makes about as much sense as a fundamentalism-minded muslim calling a western culture Christian woman a whore. The mistake you're making is assuming that free-and-open-software is, or should be, the champion cause of every software maker in the world. That mindset may be majority opinion in certain circles, it isn't around here. You can express this opinion of course, though it might be prudent to replace "Thomas is an ass" with "Thomas does a disservice to the free-and-open-software movement".

The second one - Thomas does iADOM only to extort money out of his loyal fans. This one is indefensible. There isn't enough money in the equation. Maybe enough will roll in to halfway justify the work Thomas and Jochen will be putting into iADOM itself, but that still leaves the fact Thomas created, worked on and maintained the original ADOM for years, without compensation, and that he could do a million things that would make more money than a portable device ADOM release. Not to forget that the features the fans he is supposedly trying to extort for money are clamoring for - bugfixes - will be released for the PC as well, and ADOM will always be free.

Angelus, you're not doing yourself or the roguelike game you're developing any favors, really. You use every opportunity you see, however ridiculous, to slam Thomas - and try to promote your own roguelike game at the same time. "My game is open source", "My game has very well written code", "My game is not sold for money and will always be free" - Curiously enough, this will cause people in here to care less about your game, not more. Maybe it's all an issue of envy - you can't bear the fact that ADOM is more successful than your game is. The way you're acting it appears you are all too happy to have it remain that way.

gut
07-18-2010, 01:11 PM
Yes, he visits the free forum that TB provides, uses TB's forum to spam TB's
roguelike enthusiasts with his game ads, then gripes about TB persuing $ :D

Perhaps if he didn't consider money a four letter word, he might be able to provide
a forum for his own game.

Perhaps if he didn't behave like a social retard, people here might even visit it.

TB is losing money on ADOM. Servers aren't free, bandwidth isn't free, vBulletin
isn't free. If they can make enough $ to compensate for porting it to iStuff, I'd
be surprised.

Angelus
07-19-2010, 01:39 PM
Yes, there are people out there who might potentially learn a thing or two from Thomas' source code

It's not about learning. More like fixing the bugs. The only thing you would probably learn from ADOM's source code is how not to write code that produces lot of bugs.


you can't bear the fact that ADOM is more successful than your game is.

The fact is that I haven't yet released my main roguelike project. I'm not worried about success though. It's going to be a gardening simulator mainly, with some roguelike influences. If I like it I'm happy.

Grey
07-19-2010, 06:54 PM
Surely someone will provide a cracked version of iADOM once it's available (happened to BattleDuel after about a week), so I don't think we have to do that ourselfs. :mad:

I'd personally suggest you and TB do what Jeff Lait, creator of POWDER has done. He's released POWDER on the iPhone for free, but if you want access to the last 10 levels of the game you have to pay $5. POWDER is still free and fully updated on other platforms, but the extra money helps cover the $140 developer registration cost and all the extra time he has to spend on iPhone optimisation. I'd say having to pay $10 or so to get past the wall of flames in ADOM would be quite fair. If you're getting that far in the game you're obviously getting enough playtime out of it to make it well worth the cost.

Silfir
07-19-2010, 07:41 PM
You'll also feel you got ripped off because the game is mostly over at that point - if anybody even gets that far; I at least had to play for years to reach the ToEF, and from a purely business-minded standpoint, you do want to get some money from the 70%, 80% who won't ever reach the ToEF. I'd tie it to Khelavaster instead, maybe. (Heh, not that anyone non-German (or Austrian/Swiss, possibly) would likely know what I'm talking about - isn't that basically the Game of ROBOT model? Any of you guys still know ROBOT? :) )

(By the by, Grey, if you have to pay to access the last ten levels, that game is not free now is it. ;) I wonder, at which point did it become shameful to admit that one was actually selling the fruit of your harsh labour for money to pay for at least some of the expenses incurred?)

Anyway, I'm not going to get ahead of myself and make huge assumptions, but it's basically impossible to prevent a game from being cracked, eventually. If big companies spend a million bucks of their budget on some sort of copy protection only to have the game be available on torrents one day before release, what are your chances likely to be as a two-guys indie developer without any budget?

Besides, any system that is remotely likely to work (see: online activation, Ubisoft, and of course only for a time) is also even more likely to piss off a paying customer (see: online activation, and oh dear god Ubisoft, also forever). I guess your best bet would be to have several copy protection checks, not only one at startup, at regular intervals and locations well into the game, which are much more of a hassle to all track down and remove. Then you have one check going off by accident and bam, your paying customer just had reason to get angry. And your best bet is always to keep the paying customer happy.

gut
07-20-2010, 09:55 AM
lol, yer all noobs. TB should create a top-notch ADOM server and
charge for that. There may be a free one to compete with soon,
but the official one has potential to be better, as they has the source.
Extra features may include; better PC creation (starsign selector),
bugfixes, maybe no more uber molochs... Best thing is, they wouldn't
even have to release a binary, let alone the source. Pretty hard to
crack that :D

Al-Khwarizmi
07-20-2010, 12:51 PM
I don't know how serious you are, but I would certainly pay for a well-maintained ADOM server... but as long as bugfixed binaries were available. Sometimes I don't have an internet connection, or it doesn't work well, or it's firewalled, or it's behind a proxy, or I have to pay for traffic, or I have lag, etc. etc.

Having a server would be cool but totally depending on a server to play ADOM would suck.

Silfir
07-20-2010, 02:12 PM
I think he is kidding. Making a single player game online-exclusive reeks of Ubisoftitis. No one except top-tier video game publishing companies is that stupid.

gut
07-22-2010, 03:12 PM
We would have our exe's taken away from us?

The new stuff (bugfixes/server play/crash recovery) would be worth
paying for, yet not deprive anyone of their existing ADOM binaries,
which are plenty good as they are. Besides, there may be a free
ADOM server again anyway. The only money made would come from
users who wouldn't miss it. The only way anyone would feel deprived
is if we organized a challenge game that had to be played on the
theoretical adom.de server. Rather easy to avoid in my opinion.

Al-Khwarizmi
07-22-2010, 06:08 PM
But I'd like to play the bugfixed version in my computer. I am willing to pay, but I don't see why I should have to play the bugged version if I don't have an internet connection.

gut
07-22-2010, 08:41 PM
> I don't see why I should have to play the bugged
> version if I don't have an internet connection.

Because there's no way to make an uncrackable distributable binary?
Maybe it's a better idea to not charge for anything but server, if that.

Al-Khwarizmi
07-23-2010, 10:43 PM
Because there's no way to make an uncrackable distributable binary?
Maybe it's a better idea to not charge for anything but server, if that.
How about distributing a crackable binary and just living with the fact that some people will be willing to pay and others will find ways around it? It tends to be an efficient and successful model for selling software, see for example Microsoft.

fazisi
07-23-2010, 11:44 PM
I first got ADOM on a 3.5" floppy disk from a friend with internet access. Any attempt by TB to implement some form of neanderthal DRM to "protect" ADOM from us would seem kind of backwards to me.

Grey
07-24-2010, 12:19 AM
Since this is a thought which is entirely invented perhaps we can stop considering it before it becomes a full-fledged rumour?

vogonpoet
07-24-2010, 11:52 AM
That is it as clear as it is mud sentence it Grey, well done :)

Grey
07-24-2010, 01:59 PM
Bah, stupid English :(

fazisi
07-24-2010, 06:13 PM
It's not Grey's fault that people don't get as drunk as him before reading forum posts.

gut
07-24-2010, 10:34 PM
I wonder how you crybabies are all going to react
when the first JADE release is as a net app.

fazisi
07-24-2010, 10:59 PM
Save Page As...

Laukku
07-30-2010, 08:43 PM
Funny, at the main forum page the thread's title is cut off at "How big is your..." :D

gut
07-31-2010, 04:56 AM
yeah, almost took a screen shot of that and posted it here.

Epythic
08-02-2010, 03:15 PM
... leads to the release of a Kelly-Krash-free windoze version...

Something tells me that you are running some version of Windows. In that case: hypocrite.

Silfir
08-02-2010, 08:39 PM
What prompted you to dig out a weeks-old forum post to base a personal accusation on a peculiar choice of spelling? Apart from the fact vogonpoet might have chosen the spelling in a tongue-in-cheek way - as he was talking to Angelus, who I'd refer to as an open source fanatic if I were sure what he actually is - there is also a gap between not liking Windows, or certain aspects of Windows, and actually preferring another OS.

(I could mention that there are little things more inconsequential than an individual person's attitude towards computer's operating system, but seeing as I already took the time to type up this post myself I can't convince myself that's a valid point either.)

fazisi
08-03-2010, 12:04 AM
Current Windows releases are not my favorite operating systems but I still use them. However, it is all relative. I like playing video games and having a very simple to use computer with point-and-click. So I use a Windows machine. However, I also like having stability, security and uptime, so I also have a box with Debian installed on it. If I liked sitting in coffee shops while blindly defending my operating system preferences, I would get a Mac.

Epythic
08-04-2010, 10:03 PM
Disclaimer: couldnt resist to follow-up, feel free to skip this post, you won't miss a thing.


What prompted you to dig out a weeks-old forum post
Can't be that old, can it? I mean, it was in my "New Posts" list... ;)


a personal accusation
Sorry, I won't do it again - I know, accusing someone of using Windows is pretty bad.


gap between not liking Windows, or certain aspects of Windows, and actually preferring another OS.
If only more people bridged that gap...


Current Windows releases are not my favorite operating systems but I still use them. However, it is all relative. I like [...] having a very simple to use computer with point-and-click. So I use a Windows machine.
Funny, the exact same reason why I love Linux. Windows is just not ready for the desktop.
(This is probably a really subjective thing, but I find Linux much easier to use than Windows, even if you stick to mouse-based control.)

(Ok, the playing video games argument is valid.)



However, I also like having stability, security and uptime, so I also have a box with Debian installed on it. If I liked sitting in coffee shops while blindly defending my operating system preferences, I would get a Mac.
True.


Ok I guess I *am* trolling. Oops.

Silfir
08-04-2010, 10:17 PM
Ha ha. The personal accusation was "hypocrite" :) No way to weasel your way out of that one.

vogonpoet
08-05-2010, 07:41 AM
Now now Silfir, if JellySlayer wants to scan month old posts in order to call me a hypocrite, that's his prerogative.

Personally, I hate many aspects of the MS windows family with a passion. But I use them every day. I have two computers at work which I use regularly. One runs the most hated version of UNIX ever, XENIX from RL patent trolls SCO. The other runs Windows XP. They are 18 years old and 7 years old respectively. I did not choose to be stuck with them, and a variety of reasons prevent me from changing anything major on either of them. Both of them suck ass, and getting them to work together has been a nightmare - most days I just stick to ASCII encoding and a bloody floppy disk, but sometimes I have to get the null modem cable out - its not pretty. Am I not allowed to hate the floppy disk because I use them every day? Shit, I must own the busiest floppy disk in the world, travelling as it does from one machine to another every day. One day it will just die for no reason, and I will move onto the next floppy in my diminishing secret floppy disk stash, and I will no doubt throw the dead one against a wall, use the disk as the shittest coaster in the world, and eventually throw the sad bits of distorted plastic away, but I would still rather use floppys than have to battle with the null modem (which both systems seem to hate with a passion).

I don't see why it is hypocritical to mock any (operating) system just because I use it every day. If I had a nice short nickname for SCO XENIX 2.3.4 which I could use whilst being facetious about XENIX then I would gladly use it... Spatent Ctroll Odious XENIX? Scumix?

Hopefully my next home computer will be a Linux install only - will have to bargain some more with the wife. We shall see. If so, I fully reserve the right to hate on Linux also.

/don't get me started on floppy disks or null modems.

gut
08-06-2010, 05:35 AM
>> actually preferring another OS.

> If only more people bridged that gap...

I tried a couple of days ago. Installed ubuntu really easily on my
year-old Emachines. Problem is, I couldn't get adom to run on it.
I only tried the linux version though. I think my problem is that
I'm so paranoid about allowing my OS to 'automagically' connect
to random servers and download/update stuff. I did wonder how
Ubuntu managed to fit such a supposedly advanced OS on a
single CD. Turns out they managed it by only including about
half the OS. From the stuff I managed to grep from varrying
help sites, it seems I'll prolly have to DL another ~400 megas to
have a functional OS. Just so much easier to use win7.

> Now now Silfir, if JellySlayer wants to scan month old posts

Yeah, stupid JellySlayer. Clever alias he used though.

> sometimes I have to get the null modem cable out - its not pretty

Think that's bad? When I was in tech school (ferever ago), we
had to actually make null modem cables.

vogonpoet
08-06-2010, 11:10 AM
Dammit JellySlayer and Epythic, sorry :(.

I have no idea how I did that.

And making stone age stuff at school is not the same as having to use stone age stuff every day of ones professional career.

Hell, I made a model of a Motte and Bailey Castle at school, but I am glad not to have to live in one.

Epythic
08-06-2010, 11:40 AM
I tried a couple of days ago. Installed ubuntu really easily on my
year-old Emachines. Problem is, I couldn't get adom to run on it.
I only tried the linux version though.
Weird, ADOM worked out-of-the box for me. What doesnt work?


I think my problem is that
I'm so paranoid about allowing my OS to 'automagically' connect
to random servers and download/update stuff.
I hope you don't do Windows updates, or use all those auto-updaters that programs insist on installing.
(Oh and downloads are signed so it doesnt really matter where you download from, you can be sure the files are ok.)


I did wonder how
Ubuntu managed to fit such a supposedly advanced OS on a
single CD. Turns out they managed it by only including about
half the OS. From the stuff I managed to grep from varrying
help sites, it seems I'll prolly have to DL another ~400 megas to
have a functional OS. Just so much easier to use win7.

What exactly does Win7 ship with that Ubuntu doesnt have on the install CD?

MS Office 2007 is 617 MB, OpenOffice.org would be ~200MB (http://download.services.openoffice.org/files/localized/de/3.2.1/), thats 400MB download less with Ubuntu right there (and I think OO.o is included already. Add in firefox (you dont use IE right?), a decent mail client, a chat client and all those other "little" things that Ubuntu afaik includes.)

(In case you wonder, I can download Office and most other MS software gratis and legally via MSDNAA. Not that I'd need it.)

Yay, now we are starting a full linux<-->windows debate. In an apple thread, no less. Not so good.

gut
08-06-2010, 11:01 PM
> What exactly does Win7 ship with that Ubuntu doesnt have on the install CD

I wasn't meaning large programs like gimp or open office. I'm
pretty sure it was just operating system stuff that it said
needed updating. I seem to remember countless dozens of names
like 'lib***' type stuff. See, the first thing Ubuntu did upon
install was phone home. It auto-checked for updates, and that's
something I certainly didn't give it permission to do. Granted,
it wasn't difficult to disable it, but that isn't the point.
Stuff like that is why I want to get away from windows. Ubuntu's
'install manager' gave me a (HUGE) checklist of things (OS
looking things to my eye) that needed updating. This was odd, as
I had just DL'd the latest distro, which is quite recent.

Disturbing thing is, I just checked the machine before posting
this in an effort to get more specific names. When I ran 'check
for updates' manually, it told me I no longer needed any, as the
system had been successfully updated within the last few days. I
ran it again to make sure, then it told me I had last updated
'less than 4 hours ago'. If I did, I certainly didn't mean to, I
only wanted to check. I'm now leaning toward uninstalling ubuntu,
as I don't think I can trust it.

I'll maybe try a different linux distro, but I'll not try Mandriva.
I saw a youtube vid of installing mandriva, and it spams you to
'register your OS now!' during the actual install process...

Anyhoo, my adom effort was brief. I DL'd adom-111-elf.tar.gz and
extracted it. I double clicked on 'adom', nothing. I right-click,
chose 'open', nothing. I right-click 'properties', check the
'allow executing as program' box still nothing. Right-clicking
doesn't list any option like 'run as admin', but I got no prompt
for a password. I don't think it's a proggie I have to compile.
I'll try again later.

I tried DL'ing InfraRecord. It's 'compile.txt' says I need Ms visual
basic 6 and some other stuff I'm pretty sure I don't have. I don't
even remember that being on the mega list of stuff from the update
list. Maybe I'm too dumb/lazy for linux...

> hope you don't do Windows updates, or use all those auto-updaters

That is one of the main things I want to escape. I'm pretty good at
disabling/blocking that kind of stuff, but the fact that it is there
bugs me. Unfortunately, linux seems to offer little sactuary so far.

> Oh and downloads are signed so it doesnt really matter where you download from

My problem isn't hidden features, viri, or bugs. My problem is with
the blatant trojans that are labled 'features' and celebrated openly.
"Our program AUTOMATICALLY connects your PC to OUR SERVERS!
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING!!!11!!1! Our program
will AUTOMAGICALLY send your inform- I mean, user feedback to
uS So wE cAn IMpRoVe OuR pRoDUct AnD iMpRovE yOuR usEr
ExPerIenCe!!11!! dOn'T woRRy, wE pRomISe wE Won'T SpReAD
yOUr dAta ArOuND teH iNteRweBS."

fazisi
08-07-2010, 12:02 AM
Installing the latest patches, whether to an OS or an application, is recommended to keep a secure system. This is usually automated since most system administrators (read: computer users) are total idiots.

Try opening a terminal and running adom in it.

Silfir
08-07-2010, 10:00 AM
"Lacking a computer science degree" does not equal "total idiot".

fazisi
08-07-2010, 07:13 PM
If you administer a computer and you're an idiot (you could even have a computer science degree and still be one), you fall into the category of people I just defined.

Epythic
08-08-2010, 06:28 PM
I wasn't meaning large programs like gimp or open office.
Oh, well, thats a problem right there, because Ubuntu ships a lot of those large programs, and Windows doesnt. These take a lot of space on that CD, I guess. But all you need to run it is included on the CD.


I'm
pretty sure it was just operating system stuff that it said
needed updating. I seem to remember countless dozens of names
like 'lib***' type stuff. See, the first thing Ubuntu did upon
install was phone home.
So does Windows: last time I checked the first thing you do with your new Windows install is "activate" it (let it phone home so that MS knows its out there).


It auto-checked for updates, and that's
something I certainly didn't give it permission to do. Granted,
it wasn't difficult to disable it, but that isn't the point.
What is the point then? It is a beginner distro, and the vendor seems to think that such an autoupdater that shuts up and just gets the job done is perfect... for beginners. I agree, you disagree. Who's right?


Stuff like that is why I want to get away from windows.
Which you'll have to activate before you can even use it. The net effect is the same.


Ubuntu's
'install manager' gave me a (HUGE) checklist of things (OS
looking things to my eye) that needed updating. This was odd, as
I had just DL'd the latest distro, which is quite recent.
I think it makes sense; the packages on the CD can't be the absolutely newest packages, because they have to freeze some time before they release that CD, so that they can guarantee that its stable. Every software vendor does it that way. (RTM version must be able to *run* standalone without any updates. And it does.)

Also, would you prefer not to get so much updates, and have more older versions? Try Debian/stable (I use that on my server because its rock solid. You get a new release every few years, and apart of that only security updates, only a few each week). Granted, they are a bit extreme about it, sometimes the version they ship are several years old (+ new security fixes). One way to look at Ubuntu is as a fork of Debian with the aim of bringing more up-to-date packages to the user.


Disturbing thing is, I just checked the machine before posting
this in an effort to get more specific names. When I ran 'check
for updates' manually, it told me I no longer needed any, as the
system had been successfully updated within the last few days. I
ran it again to make sure, then it told me I had last updated
'less than 4 hours ago'. If I did, I certainly didn't mean to, I
only wanted to check. I'm now leaning toward uninstalling ubuntu,
as I don't think I can trust it.
Well that behaviour is a bit weird.

Anyway, as long as you are not going back to Windows, fine. I think I get the impression that you are not really part of Ubuntus target audience, so maybe you should try another distro. Still, what you just described sounds like a bug to me or something.


I'll maybe try a different linux distro, but I'll not try Mandriva.
I saw a youtube vid of installing mandriva, and it spams you to
'register your OS now!' during the actual install process...
Thats optional as far as I see. As long as that is the case, I dont see where the problem is.
Now if it was "register now with some 3rd party and get the awesome XY toolbar for your browser" I'd see your point.

I have never used Mandriva myself and so can't really comment on it. (I've only used OpenSUSE, Ubuntu/Kubuntu, Gentoo, Arch Linux and Debian, and right now I use Arch for desktops and Debian for servers).


Anyhoo, my adom effort was brief. I DL'd adom-111-elf.tar.gz and
extracted it. I double clicked on 'adom', nothing. I right-click,
chose 'open', nothing. I right-click 'properties', check the
'allow executing as program' box still nothing. Right-clicking
doesn't list any option like 'run as admin', but I got no prompt
for a password. I don't think it's a proggie I have to compile.
I'll try again later.
I'd try opening it in the console. Just like any other console program, it just dumps its output to stdout and gets input from stdin, which are of course not shown if you just doubleclick on it. Granted, that might be a bit confusing for beginners, but at least to me it makes perfect sense.
(Who plays console games these days? Aside from us, of course...)


I tried DL'ing InfraRecord. It's 'compile.txt' says I need Ms visual
basic 6 and some other stuff I'm pretty sure I don't have. I don't
even remember that being on the mega list of stuff from the update
list. Maybe I'm too dumb/lazy for linux...
Because thats a windows-only program, as it says at the home page (http://infrarecorder.org/) (InfraRecorder is a free CD/DVD burning solution for Microsoft Windows. ). If I were you I'd try a linux program. Look in your start menu.


> hope you don't do Windows updates, or use all those auto-updaters

That is one of the main things I want to escape. I'm pretty good at
disabling/blocking that kind of stuff, but the fact that it is there
bugs me. Unfortunately, linux seems to offer little sactuary so far.
Well at least in linux there is only one central updater, programs don't have permission (yes, that is enforced by the kernel, users basically dont have write permissions outside of their home directory) to auto-update themself, so theres only one auto updater you need to look after. (Oh and you can uninstall programs cleanly. Isnt that nice?)


> Oh and downloads are signed so it doesnt really matter where you download from

My problem isn't hidden features, viri, or bugs. My problem is with
the blatant trojans that are labled 'features' and celebrated openly.
"Our program AUTOMATICALLY connects your PC to OUR SERVERS!
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING!!!11!!1! Our program
will AUTOMAGICALLY send your inform- I mean, user feedback to
uS So wE cAn IMpRoVe OuR pRoDUct AnD iMpRovE yOuR usEr
ExPerIenCe!!11!! dOn'T woRRy, wE pRomISe wE Won'T SpReAD
yOUr dAta ArOuND teH iNteRweBS."
Well better than if it isnt even labeled (see Windows, which is, as far as I recall, known to send SOMETHING to MS behind users back. And I dont mean the stuff that is sent during product activation.)
But I havent ever experienced any of what you describe. I mean, yes, theres this auto updater, but I am relatively sure that it's always asked me before it began updating or tried to send some other info to the developers. (Crash reports, for example. Always optional. Windows has that button too, you know?)

Oh and in all fairness I must add that while you might have valid points (auto updates without your permission? might be, I dont know), Ubuntu is, as a matter of fact, geared towards beginners and seems to aim to "just work". Lots of people *I know* would just press [X] on any popup they see (such as "Would you like to update?"). As far as I see, its still better than with Windows.

And we are still offtopic.

Al-Khwarizmi
08-08-2010, 07:40 PM
I'm now leaning toward uninstalling ubuntu,
as I don't think I can trust it.

I'll maybe try a different linux distro, but I'll not try Mandriva.
I saw a youtube vid of installing mandriva, and it spams you to
'register your OS now!' during the actual install process...

Try OpenSUSE. It comes in a DVD rather than a CD, and it contains everything you need without the need for getting anything from the internet. And as far as I can remember it doesn't ask you to register anything.

In my opinion it also works much better than Ubuntu. The first versions of Ubuntu were really good but latter ones are quite unstable, they seem to be living off all the hype and advertising they got. Also the update policy is crazy, even the so-called "long term support" releases are not quite so long term and when they finish supporting a version they move or rename the repositories (why they do this beats me) so your apt-get no longer works and you have to google for a while to find out how to fix it.

I'd recommend OpenSUSE over Ubuntu any day, both for beginners and advanced users.

gut
08-08-2010, 08:09 PM
> And we are still offtopic.

Nobody cares. We always go offtopic here, and I think the OT kinda
played out already anyway.

> last time I checked the first thing you do with your
> new Windows install is "activate" it

Nosir. I've had 3 win machines, and even re-installed OS's
on 2 of them. No phone home to activate. Win also did not
'check for updates' before I could disable it.

> the vendor seems to think that such an autoupdater that shuts
> up and just gets the job done is perfect... for beginners.

Even beginners deserve a y/N option.

> the packages on the CD can't be the absolutely newest packages,

Don't need or want the newest packages. I like the stable older ones.

> Also, would you prefer not to get so much updates,

Prefer not to get any, but I'm changing a bit on that. It seems
that many linux gurus, even the security obsessed ones have a
more relaxed attitude than me about trusting linux distro vendors
to freely access their PC's and do as they wish with them. The
logic escapes me, but I suppose that I can tolerate it, just for
learning purposes.

> Still, what you just described sounds like a bug to me

It occured to me that it was a bug as well, especially the second
time.

> I'd try opening it in the console.

Next time I fire up the old desktop, I'll try it again.

>> I tried DL'ing InfraRecord.

> Because thats a windows-only program, as it says at the home page

Whups, my bad. I got confused from watching nixie pixel's linux
install vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhnLk3gviWY&feature=related

She used infrarecord to put ubuntu on disk, in Win7, as did I.
Because it was a linux enthusiast vid, I naturally assumed all
the proggies used would be available for linux as well. I never
visited infraRecord's home page, only the sourceforge DL page,
so never saw the limitation.

> Well at least in linux there is only one central updater,
> programs don't have permission

That is very good news.

> Ubuntu is, as a matter of fact, geared towards beginners

Which is why I chose it, as I'm a beginner. I disagree with the
mentality of 'former win users are lazy and like shiny things'.
If that were true, we wouldn't be trying to switch. They really
wanna to make win-switchers happy, I say include help vids on
linux advantages, rather than duplicating win-flaws like 'aero'.

> seems to aim to "just work".

Can't complain there. A little help from a youtube 'how to' vid
and I had a pain free ubuntu install.

> would just press [X] on any popup they see (such as "Would you
> like to update?").

It's not even that bad. No popups, no nags, easy disable. The only
problems I had were the initial 'check FOR updates' before
I could disable, and the thing that I am now considering to be a
bug about 'you updated just hours ago'. I think I will try ubuntu
more, as I am still extremely impressed with how easy the install
was.

Epythic
08-08-2010, 09:39 PM
@openSUSE: I used it before Ubuntu and didn't like it. Mayor reasons were probably a) RPM and b) that they even more than Ubuntu focus on graphical configuration. Acceptable if it works, hurts when it breaks. Also I was very scared of updates because they tended to cause problems more often than not. (Usually the fscking proprietary nvidia driver, but other things too.). Your mileage might vary.



> last time I checked the first thing you do with your
> new Windows install is "activate" it

Nosir. I've had 3 win machines, and even re-installed OS's
on 2 of them. No phone home to activate. Win also did not
'check for updates' before I could disable it.

Oh? Are you sure about the phone home thing, maybe it is just hidden?
I just looked it up on Wikipedia and it says activation is required (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Product_Activation#Windows_versions_with_a ctivation)... (ok, you can use it before activation, but still...). Well maybe you are right, I don't know, I'm not much of a windows user, also I've never actually bought anything from Microsoft, so I don't know how the versions they give out via MSDNAA differ from the ones you buy in a store.



> the vendor seems to think that such an autoupdater that shuts
> up and just gets the job done is perfect... for beginners.

Even beginners deserve a y/N option.

This is what I addressed later on, the part with "users just press the [X]". But maybe you are right; but then the problem is that clueless people are allowed to use computers. Sadly they are, and they do hit [X], so the question is: what do you propose how we deal with them? (For Linux its not much of problem right now because their is not much linux malware right now, but still...)



> the packages on the CD can't be the absolutely newest packages,

Don't need or want the newest packages. I like the stable older ones.

Uh-huh, then Debian/stable might be just great for you.



> Also, would you prefer not to get so much updates,

Prefer not to get any, but I'm changing a bit on that. It seems
that many linux gurus, even the security obsessed ones have a
more relaxed attitude than me about trusting linux distro vendors
to freely access their PC's and do as they wish with them. The
logic escapes me, but I suppose that I can tolerate it, just for
learning purposes.

Well I am split on this too -- I always do updates manually because I cant risk breaking things at the wrong time (especially on my desktop computer; like I said the server runs Debian/stable and so is unlikely to break because of an update).

But as for the actual contents of those update, realistically there is nothing I can do to make sure the vendor doesnt give me something malicious, so I just trust them. The good track record of the Debian project helps. Contrary to that, I don't trust Microsoft at all, because they have a bad track record of screwing their customers.



> Ubuntu is, as a matter of fact, geared towards beginners

Which is why I chose it, as I'm a beginner. I disagree with the
mentality of 'former win users are lazy and like shiny things'.
If that were true, we wouldn't be trying to switch. They really
wanna to make win-switchers happy, I say include help vids on
linux advantages, rather than duplicating win-flaws like 'aero'.

I know people who very much fall into the category of "oh shiny". They want to use Linux because of its price tag and/or to show off.


I think I will try ubuntu
more, as I am still extremely impressed with how easy the install
was.
Gotcha.

Silfir
08-08-2010, 10:09 PM
I eagerly await gut's progress report one year from now ;)

fazisi
08-08-2010, 10:43 PM
> Also, would you prefer not to get so much updates,

Prefer not to get any, but I'm changing a bit on that. It seems
that many linux gurus, even the security obsessed ones have a
more relaxed attitude than me about trusting linux distro vendors
to freely access their PC's and do as they wish with them. The
logic escapes me, but I suppose that I can tolerate it, just for
learning purposes.

I hope no one assumes I am some linux guru. However, I can see the security threats of automatic updates. You are sharing with some "linux distro vendor" all the applications you are running on your machine and even asking if they have any changes they want to make to them. However, in a trusted community of linux developers where the code used is open source so if you were so paranoid you could review it yourself, it is an easier pill to swallow instead of Windows iron curtain of proprietary big brother bullshit.

Try Debian/stable. Ubuntu is just Debian's linguistically skilled little brother anyways.

gut
08-09-2010, 06:24 AM
> Are you sure about the phone home thing, maybe it is just hidden?

100%. Installed and used the OS's for months without even having
net access. I have only ever bought PC's that come pre-installed
with win. I realize now they didn't come with standard win OS disks.
Maybe MS has reason to believe all OEM install/recovery disks are
purchased, so treats them differently.

>> Lots of people *I know* would just press [X] on any popup they
>> see (such as "Would you like to update?").

You speak as though updates are a needed thing. I don't think they
are. I'll try not to be too boring, but here's why I think this.
Up until last year, I happily used a win98 (first edition), 300
MHZ emachine. I kept NO antivirus software regularly
installed for 12 years, though I would occasionally borrow a disk
from a friend for testing. I never had a single virus. Getting
virii is much more a 'user habits' thing than a 'lack of security
updates' thing.

> what do you propose how we deal with them?

Really, to my mind, the question you ask translates to this 'how
do we force users to update' or put a bit more gently 'how do we
protect users from themselves'. To my paranoid/skeptical mind,
this situation stems from the fact that users routinely give
themselves pr0n or WaReZ virii, then call/clog tech support
and loudly blame everything except the pr9n or themselves.

My solution would be to treat adults like adults. Tell them once,
I would even tolerate upon install, that some web sites and
softwareZ such as pR0n/haxor/craxor are full of virii. If they
plan to visit these sites and execute these WaREz, be prepared to
be mercilessly spammed, trojaned, phished, and crashed for all
eternity. Tell them that their only hope is regular updates and
uber antivirus software. Make these features easy to access, and
tell them how. Tell them, in any event, not to clog tech support
lines with their pron-virii problems.

Popups are the work of satan. I say design and advertise linux
as the OS for grown-ups.

Having said all above, ubuntu is better than a free thing has
a right to be, and I feel stupid for complaining about it now.

> realistically there is nothing I can do to make sure the vendor
> doesnt give me something malicious, so I just trust them.

On a scale of 1 - 10, I give that a 2.

> The good track record of the Debian project helps.

I'll give that an 8.

> I don't trust Microsoft at all,

I'll give that a 10.

>> , as I am still extremely impressed with how easy the install was.

> Gotcha

I wouldn't say I'm hooked yet, but I will say very impressed. I read
a bit before installing, about how many hardware manufactureres don't
provide drivers for linux, so sometimes linux authors have to even
reverse engineer them. I was prepared for a tedius process, yet it
was easier than some win app installs. If they are that good
in one area, they deserve the benefit of the doubt in others.

> I eagerly await gut's progress report one year from now

Too true. I use me laptop 99% of time, and it's still a win machine.
I won't switch it over until I know what I'm doing :D

> I hope no one assumes I am some linux guru.

I wasn't referencing anyone specifically. Just stuff I picked up
from leeching some linux help sites. Seems that sysadmins all over
(even google if memory serves) just trust linux update servers to
not misbehave. I don't believe it is the nature of man to not
misbehave, but I don't have sensitive data in general, and certainly
none on me desktop, so for now I'll go with the flow.

> the code used is open source so

I'll give that one only a 6, as I'm not sure the update code is
open source. Is it? If it is, and there is already a standardised
way of self-policing it, I'll happily give it a 10.

gut
08-09-2010, 09:51 AM
Accidentally got adom to run through the terminal. Dragged the adom
icon to the terminal and it gave me the command I needed.

Lessons learned along the way:
'cd downloads' isn't the same as 'cd Downloads' (actually knew that one, but forgot)
'cd..' isn't the same as 'cd ..'
'cd downloads' + 'cd adom' + 'adom' isn't the same as 'home/w/downloads/adom/adom'


Ubuntu impressed me again, twice. First, I unplugged my wireless usb
mouse transmitter from my laptop and tried it in the desktop on a whim.
Worked immediately. Second, I timed Ubuntu's boot time. From power on
to desktop took 30 seconds, same system boots vista in 60.

fazisi
08-09-2010, 07:31 PM
>> Lots of people *I know* would just press [X] on any popup they
>> see (such as "Would you like to update?").

You speak as though updates are a needed thing. I don't think they
are. I'll try not to be too boring, but here's why I think this.
Up until last year, I happily used a win98 (first edition), 300
MHZ emachine. I kept NO antivirus software regularly
installed for 12 years, though I would occasionally borrow a disk
from a friend for testing. I never had a single virus. Getting
virii is much more a 'user habits' thing than a 'lack of security
updates' thing.

It is possible for an attacker to get into your computer without you ever doing anything aside turning it on. However, the vast majority of attacks require participation by the user in some way or another since it just makes things so much easier.

That said, it is all up to the user's paranoia to try to determine what kind of defenses needed for that particular system. If it is just a home system and your most sensitive data is some embarrassing pictures of you at your friend Chad's birthday party when you had a few too many drinks, you can get by without any protection. This isn't secure but as long as you aren't targetted by a determined attacker who wants to add your machine to his bot net, you won't get many trojans or shit on it.

However, if you offer a server which is linked to by other websites (in other words, advertised) this instantly makes it a target to several attacks and should undergo what us security fanatics call "system hardening". One of the important steps of this process is applying updates and patches since discovered vulnerabilities are the easiest ones to exploit and there exists tools for script kiddies to develop their own attacks exploiting these vulnerabilities. If a script kiddie can write a virus which can infect that system, you don't even want to know what kind of nasty things an experienced attacker could do to it.


Lessons learned along the way:
'cd downloads' isn't the same as 'cd Downloads' (actually knew that one, but forgot)
'cd..' isn't the same as 'cd ..'
'cd downloads' + 'cd adom' + 'adom' isn't the same as 'home/w/downloads/adom/adom'
Learning command line is the most difficult part about becoming a true Linux user. When you learn how to though, you can do some extremely powerful things using scripting. Also, it gives you that awesome early 90s feeling when you are sitting in a dark room with nothing but a terminal window open and some [insert 90s music artist] blasting on the boom box.


Second, I timed Ubuntu's boot time. From power on
to desktop took 30 seconds, same system boots vista in 60.
You can get this to be even faster if you compiled your own kernel with only the bare necessities. :b

Epythic
08-11-2010, 11:09 PM
> Are you sure about the phone home thing, maybe it is just hidden?

100%. Installed and used the OS's for months without even having
net access. I have only ever bought PC's that come pre-installed
with win. I realize now they didn't come with standard win OS disks.
Maybe MS has reason to believe all OEM install/recovery disks are
purchased, so treats them differently.
Well unless you give it internet access you of course have no chance to observe any hidden phone home thing.
And observe means using Wireshark or equivalent, not "theres no popup that says its phoning home so there aint any".
OEM installs are usually preactivated or autoactivate on first boot. (And that only works if you run it on the right hardware.)


>> Lots of people *I know* would just press [X] on any popup they
>> see (such as "Would you like to update?").

You speak as though updates are a needed thing. I don't think they
are. I'll try not to be too boring, but here's why I think this.
Up until last year, I happily used a win98 (first edition), 300
MHZ emachine. I kept NO antivirus software regularly
installed for 12 years, though I would occasionally borrow a disk
from a friend for testing. I never had a single virus. Getting
virii is much more a 'user habits' thing than a 'lack of security
updates' thing.

> what do you propose how we deal with them?

Really, to my mind, the question you ask translates to this 'how
do we force users to update' or put a bit more gently 'how do we
protect users from themselves'. To my paranoid/skeptical mind,
this situation stems from the fact that users routinely give
themselves pr0n or WaReZ virii, then call/clog tech support
and loudly blame everything except the pr9n or themselves.

My solution would be to treat adults like adults. Tell them once,
I would even tolerate upon install, that some web sites and
softwareZ such as pR0n/haxor/craxor are full of virii. If they
plan to visit these sites and execute these WaREz, be prepared to
be mercilessly spammed, trojaned, phished, and crashed for all
eternity. Tell them that their only hope is regular updates and
uber antivirus software. Make these features easy to access, and
tell them how. Tell them, in any event, not to clog tech support
lines with their pron-virii problems.
Thats the way it is now. Doesnt work.


Popups are the work of satan. I say design and advertise linux
as the OS for grown-ups.
Most people arent grown-ups when it comes to computers. At least thats my observation.


Having said all above, ubuntu is better than a free thing has
a right to be, and I feel stupid for complaining about it now.
Oh, the "you get what you pay for (now with exceptions!)" attitude. Doesnt work for free software. :)



> realistically there is nothing I can do to make sure the vendor
> doesnt give me something malicious, so I just trust them.

On a scale of 1 - 10, I give that a 2.

> The good track record of the Debian project helps.

I'll give that an 8.

> I don't trust Microsoft at all,

I'll give that a 10.

I mostly agree with your scores.



>> , as I am still extremely impressed with how easy the install was.

I just dont understand why installing another OS scares the shit out of users.



> Gotcha

I wouldn't say I'm hooked yet, but I will say very impressed. I read
a bit before installing, about how many hardware manufactureres don't
provide drivers for linux, so sometimes linux authors have to even
reverse engineer them. I was prepared for a tedius process, yet it
was easier than some win app installs. If they are that good
in one area, they deserve the benefit of the doubt in others.

Fact: there are more drivers for an up-to-date Linux install than for the most recent Windows version(s). Why? Because forcing users to rebuy hardware generates profit.
Things look very different if you look at "drivers for devices released in the previous two years".



> I hope no one assumes I am some linux guru.

I wasn't referencing anyone specifically. Just stuff I picked up
from leeching some linux help sites. Seems that sysadmins all over
(even google if memory serves) just trust linux update servers to
not misbehave. I don't believe it is the nature of man to not
misbehave, but I don't have sensitive data in general, and certainly
none on me desktop, so for now I'll go with the flow.
No we don't. In fact I just had to deal with a hacked linux server. (This is a private server, not a work server, running various operating systems on about a dozen VMs belonging to about a dozen owners. No, the VM that got hacked wasnt mine.).



> the code used is open source so

I'll give that one only a 6, as I'm not sure the update code is
open source. Is it? If it is, and there is already a standardised
way of self-policing it, I'll happily give it a 10.
The debian guys are fanatic about only accepting free/open source stuff. They have unfree repos but they are disabled by default.


Accidentally got adom to run through the terminal. Dragged the adom
icon to the terminal and it gave me the command I needed.

Lessons learned along the way:
'cd downloads' isn't the same as 'cd Downloads' (actually knew that one, but forgot)
'cd..' isn't the same as 'cd ..'
'cd downloads' + 'cd adom' + 'adom' isn't the same as 'home/w/downloads/adom/adom'

"./adom", not "adom".
Because the current directory is not in the search path. Otherwise someone might put, say, a virus there and call it "ls" ("dir" on windows). Now imagine root cd'ing into the directory then typing ls.


It is possible for an attacker to get into your computer without you ever doing anything aside turning it on. However, the vast majority of attacks require participation by the user in some way or another since it just makes things so much easier.
I know its quite old, but if you want to have some fun install a WinXP RTM (= no SP1/2/3, no Updates), put it in the DMZ and wait a few minutes. Trust me, you'll see when you have waited long enough :)



That said, it is all up to the user's paranoia to try to determine what kind of defenses needed for that particular system. If it is just a home system and your most sensitive data is some embarrassing pictures of you at your friend Chad's birthday party when you had a few too many drinks, you can get by without any protection. This isn't secure but as long as you aren't targetted by a determined attacker who wants to add your machine to his bot net, you won't get many trojans or shit on it.
I dont fucking care about how home users protect their data. But when their machines start, for example, sending spam messages, it gets a problem.



Learning command line is the most difficult part about becoming a true Linux user. When you learn how to though, you can do some extremely powerful things using scripting. Also, it gives you that awesome early 90s feeling when you are sitting in a dark room with nothing but a terminal window open and some [insert 90s music artist] blasting on the boom box.

The command line is mostly optional these days.



You can get this to be even faster if you compiled your own kernel with only the bare necessities. :b
I've never done this, and I suspect compiling my own kernel would take longer than I would gain by it running faster :)



ok today i wont review my post because its fucking late and i gotta get to work tomorrow :)

gut
08-12-2010, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by gut
That said, it is all up to the user's paranoia to try to determine what kind of defenses needed for that particular system. If it is just a home system and your most sensitive data is some embarrassing pictures of you at your friend Chad's birthday party when you had a few too many drinks, you can get by without any protection. This isn't secure but as long as you aren't targetted by a determined attacker who wants to add your machine to his bot net, you won't get many trojans or shit on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gut
Learning command line is the most difficult part about becoming a true Linux user. When you learn how to though, you can do some extremely powerful things using scripting. Also, it gives you that awesome early 90s feeling when you are sitting in a dark room with nothing but a terminal window open and some [insert 90s music artist] blasting on the boom box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gut
You can get this to be even faster if you compiled your own kernel with only the bare necessities. :b

Funny, I don't remember saying any of that.


> just dont understand why installing another OS scares the shit out of users.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't shying away from work, I was impressed with results.
When I find competence from one source in one area, I figure it is probable to find more
from them.

fazisi
08-12-2010, 03:25 AM
Funny, I don't remember saying any of that.
gut and I may appear very similar but please give credit where due. :(

Al-Khwarizmi
08-12-2010, 09:34 AM
"./adom", not "adom".
Because the current directory is not in the search path. Otherwise someone might put, say, a virus there and call it "ls" ("dir" on windows). Now imagine root cd'ing into the directory then typing ls.
Nice explanation, I didn't know that was the reason for not adding "." to the path by default.

Anyway, I still find that reason a bit flimsy. Can't they place "." as the last entry in the search path so that if you type ls it first goes to /bin/ls (or wherever the command is), and only if it doesn't exist it goes to ./ls?

One of the first things I do when I configure my home linux installs is adding "." to the path.

JellySlayer
08-12-2010, 06:58 PM
I know its quite old, but if you want to have some fun install a WinXP RTM (= no SP1/2/3, no Updates), put it in the DMZ and wait a few minutes. Trust me, you'll see when you have waited long enough :)

Reminds me of this:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/network.png

From xkcd (http://xkcd.com/350/)

Universal
10-03-2010, 07:09 AM
iADOM - how big is your interest?

I'm not interesed in iAdom at all, I'm afraid.

sgeos
04-10-2011, 04:47 AM
Downloaded Nethack for the iPhone and futzed around with it for a couple of days. I suspect I'd actually play iADOM fairly often. I'd like a second ultra. =)

mr_ocnitsa
05-15-2011, 06:01 PM
All the Apple hate is ridiculous. There are pluses and minuses with any OS/hardware/software.

iPad is awesome for surfing the Web in bed without frying your reproductive organs with your laptop. It's also awesome for reading pdfs online like stuff for school through Academic Search Complete. It's also the only device that appeals to everyone in my house (for different purposes and in different contexts) including my wife and 6 year old kid. It is not meant to be an everything device...it fills a niche in terms of usage.

I tried nethack on it and hate the tileset. I'd buy iADOM in a second...specially if it were under 5 bucks.

yisk
06-24-2011, 04:20 PM
It will be a typical iADOM player. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRXFBP9X1sg

Moeba
06-25-2011, 03:19 PM
>> Lots of people *I know* would just press [X] on any popup they
>> see (such as "Would you like to update?").

You speak as though updates are a needed thing. I don't think they
are. I'll try not to be too boring, but here's why I think this.
Up until last year, I happily used a win98 (first edition), 300
MHZ emachine. I kept NO antivirus software regularly
installed for 12 years, though I would occasionally borrow a disk
from a friend for testing. I never had a single virus. Getting
virii is much more a 'user habits' thing than a 'lack of security
updates' thing.

I can confirm this, I had antivirus software only about 1 year of my ~13 years on the internet now, and never got a virus yet. My brother does the same, and got a virus once (last month) for which he just quickly installed 2 antivirus programs. The virus was effectively killed and 3 weeks ago he removed the antivirus software again so that his PC may run 2 times as fast. Installing et cetera costs quite some time, but the 100&#37; computer speed bonus completely cancels that out even if it was just for 1 week without viruses. As my ICT-brother uses to say: most antivirus software is a cure more dangerous than the disease :D
Except if you download torrent files each day and have to click each doubtful link you see, of course

Edit: it's nice btw, always if I check out a channel it's full of gut's posts and replies to those :D

eeviac
10-04-2011, 12:31 AM
Hi,

Sorry, it looks like this thread is dead but I'm wondering, is the project dead? I'm new to ADOM but I would LOVE to finally have a proper portable roguelike. The NetHack related ports all suffer from bugs, crashes and poor controls. The new tty app, RogueTerm, is pretty good for playing on NAO, but I don't always have internet connections. I paid $10 for POWDER iOS, and while it's a brilliant game and a perfect port, it doesn't have the complexity to stay fresh after 100+ hours of play and multiple wins. I would easily pay $10+ for a proper iPhone port of ADOM.

Silfir
10-04-2011, 01:57 AM
I'm pretty sure iADOM is not dead, but Thomas is concentrating pretty heavily on JADE right now.

eeviac
10-06-2011, 02:24 AM
Is it Thomas alone that's working on iADOM? The OP gives me the impression that he works on ports.

gut
11-14-2011, 09:42 PM
iirc, the order of priority goes like this: jade, adom live, i-whatever, adom.

Adom live was the frontrunner for a while, but Biskup now prioritizes JADE, as
JADE stands for Java-based ADom Engine, Biskup feels that if he gets a proper
engine constructed, developement on adom live and i-stuffs will procede more
smoothly. Jochen, the original poster, will be active on i-related stuffs, and I
think even already has a prototype UI for adom on some i-device.

jt
11-24-2011, 07:36 PM
iADOM is still alive. I have a working prototype for some time now, but I'm still not very satisfied with the UI. In addition to that I was busy with some other i-stuff of my own. :)

Today on the way home I had another idea for the UI of iADOM. We'll see if this works as good as I imagine. Apart from that there are still some bugs in ADOM that I think should be fixed before iADOM (and new ADOM versions) are released and I'm pretty sure I need some help from Thomas to fix them.

jt
03-10-2012, 01:17 PM
Just a quick note that iADOM already supports the Retina display of the new iPad. Looks great (on the simulator, that is)!

Jrom
10-16-2012, 11:22 PM
I am extremely excited for iAdom to release. I think there may be even more people interested in it with the impending release of the iPad mini.

Elric
11-25-2012, 10:30 PM
Definitely yes!

These days I don't carry a laptop with me anymore, only an iPad, and I'm not alone. So I'm really looking forward to playing ADOM while on the road.

Xcode_t
12-23-2012, 11:38 PM
Getting an iPad version of ADOM would be fantastic. I play this every day, and if I do not need to have my computer to play it, I would definitely play it even more. I would even do the programming if given the chance, so, needless to say, I support it whole-heartedly. I would also like to say: I have a lot of experience with the iPhone developer tools and I would like to ask for the Java code to remain in place. Doing this in C or Objective-C is appropriate and efficient, but Java would also allow for quick redeployment to the Android and Windows 8 devices.

theseus12
02-28-2013, 09:07 PM
question. what would substitute for the keyboard?

Blasphemous
03-13-2013, 06:28 PM
To add my two cents to this discussion: I prefer adom on my PC, with comfortable chair, a cup of tea and big keyboard that provides ease of access.
It *might* be interesting to play it on my SGS3 but just as a curiosity, as I can't possibly imagine comfortably playing the game on any keyboardless handheld.

ThatWhovianDude
02-18-2015, 12:07 AM
Personally, I'd prefer an Android release, partially because I only own an Android, but also because the platform is the best mobile platform for gaming. With all of the different phones and tablets with different RAM, and video output capabilities, etc, I just think it's a better choice. As for the control scheme, ASCII wasn't made for touch screens, so larger squares, and maybe a grid around them would make the game much easier to navagate.

A few of the best mobile roguelikes I've played included some really nice touches, larger font, and gridded tiles that flash when tapped as the character moves towards it, or single tiles movement done by tapping the left, right, top, or bottom of the screen. I really don't like when games have on screen buttons. Save for emulators, most Android/iPad games either should have found a workaround, or should never have come to mobile.

Adam Taylor
01-28-2018, 03:57 AM
I have an iPad. I wouldn't want to play ADoM on it. I don't have one of those keyboard attachments, and would never suffer through trying to play something like this without one.