Artifact Homogenization

[Ryshek]

There doesn't seem to be a suggestions box that I've located so this is the best spot of seen short of sending our heavenly lord sir Biskup a lengthy post card... Though i doubt many will agree with the request i think ADOM could stand to benefit greatly from 2 things major changes.

The first of which would simply be cosmetic, instead of 2d10 weapon damage, weapons should be in a simpler format, like 2-20 damage... Another cosmetic change along the same lines being in the hit category, a more simplistic outline of what hit brings to the table would be very handy as opposed to the general rule of thumb being 'more hit is betterer'... when i press SHIFT+W it would be nice to know that i have a 80% chance to hit an equal level mob, or i have a 200% chance...

my second recommendation is somewhat twofold as well... which i would like to preface by stating that artifacts are meant to be items of immense power, items that are absolutely vital to a player being able to complete the game.

with that said, not all artifacts are equal... but should they be?
I think, to a degree they should be... with the exception that artifacts that are generated randomly should be more powerful than those that are guaranteed.

lets take for example:
Perion's mithril plate mail plate mail 450s (-1,-4) [-1,+13] -Fire -Acid
vs
fine leather armor "Nature's Companion" leather armor 120s (+2,+0) [+2,+8] (+15 Spd) =Fire =Elec

it really is not much of a contest, nature's companion destroys perion's in nearly every facet save for PV...

I think what can be done to remedy this is fairly simple, there needs to be a means to quantify the value of an artifact (as it should be done for normal items as well) and the stats should be distributed accross the items appropriately in a manner that makes all artifacts equal yet different, so while some items will indefinitely be more preferable because of their stat distribution no item will end up being... the infamously garbage... perion's mithril plate mail /:

the concept is somewhat a kin to world of warcraft's item level system, but considering that ADOM doesn't have 8000 tiers of items spanning across 3 expansions... it doesn't need to be anywhere near as lofty.

my recommendation is to take an item that you feel is well balanced, IE nature's companion and break it down into a seemingly appropriate quantified value...

allow heavier items to be worth more in terms of quantified value, every 100 stones should be worth a value of -5.

desirable intrinsic effects should be worth a value of 15, which would bring nature's companion up to 35

undesirable intrinsic effects such as dooming and auto cursing should lower the item's rating by 15, allowing items like Perion's to put bonuses elsewhere due to the fact Perion's suffers from a negative defensive value...

while speed seems to be a very effective stat, it is also very easily obtained throughout adom, with this in mind a value of 5 speed should be worth 10 points, which would bring nature's companion up to a value of
65

DV and PV are the perfect example of an equal yet different system and are incredibly powerful even at low values, i feel they should be rated at 5 for every 2 points, which would quantify to be 50, adding that to 115

we'll call the bonus to hit 2.5, regardless of its melee or ranged... bringing nature's companion up to a total of 120!

there you have it...! it was alot of work but concept could be used to bring the rest of the items in adom in line with each other by establishing base values for item properties and deciding on a total value that would represent an guaranteed artifact versus a randomly generated artifact versus a normal piece of gear.

One very last thing i would like to address, while i love the requirement for entry to the plane of chaos by wearing the lawful or chaotic trinity... having made it to the very end of the game as a beast master i have to express my dissatisfaction over the requirement of killing Andor Drakon with the ToTRR when there are classes in the game that inherently suffer negative effects from wielding weaponry.

Man, crazy long first post. I hope there will be debate over it :D

[Soirana]

Personally I am all for artifacts being at least partially randomised. It would be so much more exciting.

[Ryshek]

Personally I am all for artifacts being at least partially randomised. It would be so much more exciting.

Randomized meaning you would like random values on them that would be based on a predetermined quantified value or random in that you want arbitrary values on them?

[Soirana]

Randomized meaning you would like random values on them that would be based on a predetermined quantified value or random in that you want arbitrary values on them?

To be exact Crawl type random:). Sort of you find emerald dagger and have zero idea what it is going to do. Could not care less about them being quantified and so on.

Current system is rather boring, especially since the set of artifacts which can be randomly generated is very limited.

[Ryshek]

while i empathize with in terms of desiring powerful random gear... conceptually i have a hard time imagining how you would create items that would that have static intrinsic values that are defining in terms of the artifact, yet random statistics... which in the case of a weapon if you were using quantified values the only difference the threshhold of the damage, IE: 6-20 vs 11-15 which should equate to the same average damage

armor would be different and easier i suppose and somewhat better, you could end up with 5 dv 5 pv or 0 dv and 10 pv

[gut]

> instead of 2d10 weapon damage, weapons should be in a simpler format, like 2-20 damage...

It took me a while to comprehend it when I first started playing
adom, but adom was my first rl/D&D-type game ever. I find it
charming these days, but changing it would make it more
understandable to rl newbies.

> it would be nice to know that i have a 80% chance to hit an equal level mob,

Problem with that is mob type. A displacer beast of = level
would be very different from a jackel of = level.

> not all artifacts are equal... but should they be?

Certainly hope not, I'd never find one in the black market
if they were. I even like having the stinkers in there, so
skummerz will facepalm themselves for that 3rd precrown
that yielded Al-suck-ulase.

> there needs to be a means to quantify the value of an artifact

I once tried to rate arts, but what was valuable to me was
so much different from what was valuable to everyone else.
- can I get it early enough for it to matter
- does it allow me earlier access to game locations
others don't seem to care about those things. I still think
the SoRS is one of the most powerful and desirable arts in
the game, but most players won't touch it with a pole.

Communizing art attributes would eliminate the thrill of getting
bracers of war, preserver, vanquisher.

[fazisi]

I like Crawl's random artifacts system. Something similar would expand the amount of available artifact items and keep people from getting bored with having to use Big Punch every other game.

[Ryshek]

>
I once tried to rate arts, but what was valuable to me was
so much different from what was valuable to everyone else.
- can I get it early enough for it to matter
- does it doesn't allow me earlier access to game locations
others don't seem to care about those things. I still think
the SoRS is one of the most powerful and desirable arts in
the game, but most players won't touch it with a pole.

Communizing art attributes would eliminate the thrill of getting
bracers of war, preserver, vanquisher.

homogenizing! communizing is making something public property...

and it wouldn't remove the thrill of finding an artifact, it just means it would remove the disappointment of finding perion's mithril plate mail l:

and the SoRS is amazing, stat wise, unfortunately it has that painful drawback of CHAOS

[vogonpoet]

Yeah, I don't really understand why anyone would want to take variety and player choice out of the game... at all.

I was going to post a massive post, but basically, when I reread it, it comes down to the above sentence.

[gut]

communize is = wealth distribution, so it stands to reason
that = stat attribution is the same; no one art can have too
much. I like the capitolistic pigdog way of distributing art
goodness. Give protector and executor all the goodness you
exploited away from soaker, staff of archmagi, long sting,
and shezestriacuwhatever, and laugh maniacally at the suckers
who get jipped :D

Perion's is useful if you miss the pyramid. It is useful to
sell and sac in any case. All arts have value, so there is a
limit to how dissapointed one can be.

[JellySlayer]

--------- rune covered long sword "Trusted One" (+1, 5d3) [+7, +7] ---------

Weight: 60s

When worn it modifies DV by +7 and PV by +7.

When used in melee combat it grants a +1 bonus to hit and causes 5d3 points
of damage. When used as a missile it grants a -6 bonus to hit and causes 1d3
points of damage.

It grants resistance to fire.
It grants resistance to cold.
It grants resistance to acid.
It grants resistance to sleep attacks.
It grants resistance to petrification.
It grants resistance to stunning.
It grants resistance to death attacks.
It grants resistance to paralysation.
It grants resistance to shock attacks.


Each desirable intrinsic is worth 15, so that's 15x9 = 135 points. 7 PV and 7 DV gives 35 more. +1 to hit gives 2.5. Damage you haven't specified. 5d3 gives an average of 7.5 damage. Let's give that x2.5 as well, since you seem to like that number. So 135+35+2.5+18.75 = 191.75 points.





---------------- sapphire amulet "Preserver" [+4, +4] {Wi+7} ---------------

Weight: 3s

When worn it modifies DV by +4 and PV by +4.

When used in melee combat it grants a -4 bonus to hit and causes 1d3 points
of damage. When used as a missile it grants a -4 bonus to hit and causes 1d3
points of damage.

It causes your wounds to regenerate.
It modifies your willpower attribute by +7.
It grants resistance to poison.
It grants luck.
It grants resistance to paralyzation.


4x desirable intrinsics gives 60. 4 PV and 4 DV give 20 in total. Stats you haven't specified. Let's say Wi is at x5. So that's 35 more. So Preserver ranks at 115. Trusted one is clearly much better than Preserver.

[vogonpoet]

To be fair, I reckon Trusted One is kinda underrated - sure, its next to useless for a melee PC, but for a spellcaster or missile user, hell, the PV alone makes its pretty awesome... especially if you want to avoid pool sipping for age reasons

[Albahan]

I have never once been disappointed by Perion's plate.. but maybe thats because I've never found it.

[gut]

I think it's a crown gift for a seldom played class. Weaponsmith?

[Silfir]

Changing 2d10 to 2-20 would not be a cosmetic change, it would take away information. You'd have no way of knowing if 2-20 would work like 2d10, in a bell curve, or 1d19+1, in which every value has the same chance of occuring. Of all the things that could confuse a new player, this is probably the easiest and most non-consequential to figure out anyway.

And why the hell would artifacts have to be equal? You're posing the question, then say yes, but where's the reasoning behind it?

[Ryshek]

Changing 2d10 to 2-20 would not be a cosmetic change, it would take away information. You'd have no way of knowing if 2-20 would work like 2d10, in a bell curve, or 1d19+1, in which every value has the same chance of occuring. Of all the things that could confuse a new player, this is probably the easiest and most non-consequential to figure out anyway.

And why the hell would artifacts have to be equal? You're posing the question, then say yes, but where's the reasoning behind it?

why should artifacts be equal? why shouldn't they? why should i be disappointed in getting perion's and happy i got nature's companion? why should their be any artifacts that don't have much use to anyone due to poor stat allocation? who wants to be disappointed by a crowning gift that doesn't even have value in that you can't sacrifice it back!

[Ryshek]

--------- rune covered long sword "Trusted One" (+1, 5d3) [+7, +7] ---------

Weight: 60s

When worn it modifies DV by +7 and PV by +7.

When used in melee combat it grants a +1 bonus to hit and causes 5d3 points
of damage. When used as a missile it grants a -6 bonus to hit and causes 1d3
points of damage.

It grants resistance to fire.
It grants resistance to cold.
It grants resistance to acid.
It grants resistance to sleep attacks.
It grants resistance to petrification.
It grants resistance to stunning.
It grants resistance to death attacks.
It grants resistance to paralysation.
It grants resistance to shock attacks.


Each desirable intrinsic is worth 15, so that's 15x9 = 135 points. 7 PV and 7 DV gives 35 more. +1 to hit gives 2.5. Damage you haven't specified. 5d3 gives an average of 7.5 damage. Let's give that x2.5 as well, since you seem to like that number. So 135+35+2.5+18.75 = 191.75 points.





---------------- sapphire amulet "Preserver" [+4, +4] {Wi+7} ---------------

Weight: 3s

When worn it modifies DV by +4 and PV by +4.

When used in melee combat it grants a -4 bonus to hit and causes 1d3 points
of damage. When used as a missile it grants a -4 bonus to hit and causes 1d3
points of damage.

It causes your wounds to regenerate.
It modifies your willpower attribute by +7.
It grants resistance to poison.
It grants luck.
It grants resistance to paralyzation.


4x desirable intrinsics gives 60. 4 PV and 4 DV give 20 in total. Stats you haven't specified. Let's say Wi is at x5. So that's 35 more. So Preserver ranks at 115. Trusted one is clearly much better than Preserver.

o0o0o0o0oooooo i like this post! my concept for a quantified value system is something i just made up in 5 minutes, while i only really thought far enough ahead to apply it to the intrinsic effects on nature's champion... with that said i feel that resistance is NOT equal to immunity... so possibly lowering the quantified value granted by resistances versus the value granted by immunities would bring the trusted one to be much more in line... considering that it takes 4 fire resistance to equal out to an immunity in the ToEF... resistance intrinsic effects would most likely need to be around 1/4 the value...

i'm not claiming the system i made up in 5 minutes is the perfect system to balance out the enormous disparity in power between artifacts... I'm saying that something somewhat more thought out would stop me from feeling disappointed over getting some artifacts over others O:

also, should an amulet be granted the same base quantified value as a weapon? maybe... maybe not? i don't think it really matters if they are or they are not since they are in separate item categories, so long as the preserver is in line with the rest of the artifact amulets, i am okay with it having a different base quantified value

[zasvid]

I think ADOM would be less interesting and exciting if all artifacts were the same. There would be no thrill of getting a good (pre/post)crown (e.g. a barbarian crowning is very exciting, though never disappointing - you are getting something good, but you still can hope for the Vanquisher). Also, I like to use artifacts shunned by the majority in challenging situations (mainly because I love the flavour of ADOM's artifacts), like fighting Andy with a thief while wielding Cat's Claw.


To be exact Crawl type random:). Sort of you find emerald dagger and have zero idea what it is going to do. Could not care less about them being quantified and so on.

Current system is rather boring, especially since the set of artifacts which can be randomly generated is very limited.

Nooooo, Crawl type random is good only for pure gamists, who could care less whether their ( with which they kill k, r, s is a sword or a hammer. I definitely prefer the way the emerald dagger "Serpent's Bite" is an always poisoned weapon and Vanquisher being a super-slayer, because with totally randomized stats it could have qualities that have no sense considering it's flavour (e.g. Vanquisher increasing intelligence and giving you some resists and nothing else).

On the other hand, I agree that fixed artifacts are a bit boring, especially those that aren't randomly generated and are good and easily attainable - AMW and ankh are particularly big offenders in that area.

I think that the best way would be to have artifacts partially randomised with some kind of a theme. E.g. "Serpent's Bite" being always poisonous and giving poison resistance, but getting a random slay or an increase in base damage instead of a slay.

[Grey]

why should artifacts be equal? why shouldn't they? why should i be disappointed in getting perion's and happy i got nature's companion? why should their be any artifacts that don't have much use to anyone due to poor stat allocation? who wants to be disappointed by a crowning gift that doesn't even have value in that you can't sacrifice it back!

It's more fun that way!!! ADOM has lots of inequalities, and the author has explicitly said he likes it that way. I personally agree. For instance farmers and thieves are far far harder to play than wizards or archers. But if they were all just as easy/hard there'd be no need for the variety. Making everything the same or equivalent to each other is dull dull dull! I LOVE finding bracers of war, because they are awesome. I HATE finding the fecking black tome, but I know that the hate is part of the fun too. The random nature of roguelikes is part of the very essence of their fun. Every game is different and the individual set-ups you get are more interesting. Homogenising everything would make things far more boring. Go play noughts and crosses if you want true homogeny :P

And you completely missed JellySlayer's point - it's utterly impossible to quantify how useful/non-useful an artifact is. All weapon artifacts are useless to beastfighters for instance. Different stats and intrinsics are more useful in certain circumstances or styles of play than others. To try and get a balanced system is a ludicrous endeavour.


One very last thing i would like to address, while i love the requirement for entry to the plane of chaos by wearing the lawful or chaotic trinity... having made it to the very end of the game as a beast master i have to express my dissatisfaction over the requirement of killing Andor Drakon with the ToTRR when there are classes in the game that inherently suffer negative effects from wielding weaponry.You only need the trident equipped when he dies. You don't even need to hit him with it, as long as it's in your weapon slot. The preferred way of killing him is usually blessed demon/humanoid slaying ammo. A beastfighter can easily claw him apart with his hands, shove the trident on, and finish him off with a couple of arrows.

[Silfir]

why should i be disappointed in getting perion's and happy i got nature's companion? why should their be any artifacts that don't have much use to anyone due to poor stat allocation? who wants to be disappointed by a crowning gift that doesn't even have value in that you can't sacrifice it back!

Artifacts are divine, mythical, stuff of legend. Why should they cater to the player's needs or wishes? Why should they have to be "useful" or possess a certain "stat allocation" to justify their existence? They are what they are. They have a name, they have a story, they have a legend behind their powers. "Black Thumb", the bane of any flora, possibly created by a fallen druid who turned on the wildlife he once swore to protect after a terrible tragedy befell his lover, used by him to destroy swarths of nature... The silver key, which can open any lock... The black tome of the evil necromancer Alsophocus, representing the ultimate temptation of infinite arcane power, drawing anyone who uses it closer to destruction... The plate mail of the mighty warrior Perion, who wore this in his quest to save his country from the powers of evil... Who knows what stories lie behind these mystical things of power?

Artifacts don't need "fixing" or "homogenization". If anything, we should be able to find out more about them, just like the Ring of the High Kings has a story behind it, we should be able to find out the story behind Executor (why is it cursed, but slays demons? It is a thing of good, a thing of evil, or something inbetween, perhaps the result of an unholy pact?) or the dreadful Kinslayer. Something to enrich the setting even more, to lend even more life to the mythology of Ancardia. Because that's really the thing ADOM has going for it compared to other roguelikes: It takes itself halfway seriously. Sure, there's humorous fortune cookie messages and easter eggs, but on the while it has an engaging story and a convincing fantasy setting that actually allows for a modicum of roleplay. Nethack has tourists and credit cards.



You don't like the artifact you just got? Tough shit. I bet you don't like the acid trap that just ate your seven leagues either. Or that giant rust monster who managed to get rid of your hilariously smithed pair of red dragon-hide gauntlets, or the ogre magus that just kicked your ass out of nowhere, or the black wizard who just summoned a horde of fire vortices who proceeded to obliterate all the herbs you were so carefully farming, or that you just got doomed five times instead of receiving a wish from the Darkforge pools. ADOM is full of things that don't go your way. Dealing with them is where the fun is.

[Grey]

I think that the best way would be to have artifacts partially randomised with some kind of a theme. E.g. "Serpent's Bite" being always poisonous and giving poison resistance, but getting a random slay or an increase in base damage instead of a slay.

Yeah, I like this idea more. A random artifact generator with general theme behind each creation. Each find would be new and interesting, but you'd always have something that made sense at least. Also, it'd make scrolls of greater identify actually have a use.

[vogonpoet]

I know its a bit nitpicky, but technically scrolls of greater identify are awesomely useful for unspoiled players trying to win the game without reading the Guidebook(s) first.

Now you could claim that that is a very difficult task, but it would be a lot fucking harder without scrolls of greater identify to help people distinguish average artifacts from awesome ones.

[Soirana]

o0o0o0o0oooooo i like this post! my concept for a quantified value system is something i just made up in 5 minutes,

Well, there is some other stuff to consider. Preserwer is so awesome partially cause he has no real fight for the slot....

Also something like acid resist is hardly noticebale by midgame, while getting let say paralysis resistance is not that easy and guaranteed.

I like themed randomness too. And some artifact fixes... Long sting actually just need to return while thrown to become decent...

[ztelmmu]

long enough (~ 2 years) i am stalking this forum.

still needed a cause to register. this thread!

i really do like elona's kind of artifacts. it's way of item enhancement and artifact generation (in this case randomly godly or miracle items). this could be done in adom, but - of course - shouldn't. as mentioned before the unbalanced nature of adom just is part of it's addictive fun. but jade may profit from elona's idea of artifact generation.

[Ryshek]

long enough (~ 2 years) i am stalking this forum.

still needed a cause to register. this thread!

now that... is inspiring!

As for unspoiled players, i can genuinely look back to when i first started playing ADOM and remember when i first chose to become spoiled... and it was about 15 deaths to starvation and wondering why things became so hard in the small cave... i don't think too many unspoiled players get to a crowning let alone an artifact... and if they did they are new to ADOM and wouldn't really be able to differentiate between an artifact like the 'Emerald Dagger' and a 'Crystal Dagger'... Once i started reading and realizing how amazing ADOM was i couldn't stop O:

but hey that was just me...

[gut]

To the original poster, you might enjoy reading this:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.adom/browse_thread/thread/be0c696074c25344?tvc=2&q=Neepery+about+Relative+Worth+of+Artifacts++

This got me thinking about what the best ranking system would
be, and I've come to the conclusion that the best way is to do it
backward. Start with everyone ranking arts, then, once you have
a generally accepted ranking, figure out why. Of course you will
have some 'underappreciated' ones in there, but maybe there is
a reason for it (rarity springs to mind).

[vogonpoet]

then, once you have
a generally accepted ranking, figure out why

Ha ha. Bwah ha ha ha ha. Eh? Oh bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaargh.


edit;
Incidentally, that ranking system was interesting, but I would like to see an extra factor for artifact availability thrown in - the trident of the red rooster should be penalised for only being available to characters of level 45 or greater, the Crown of Science boosted for its theoretical availability to certain level 1 PCs and plenty of Level 10 PCs, the non-guaranteed artifacts should be penalised somewhat, and True Strength should be almost struck from the list :) Just don't mention the RCT.

[Soirana]

i've read my own post in that thread.

Nice to see i was same asshole few years ago:)

[Aielyn]

Why waste time trying to be mathematically specific? It would be easier to just get people together, form an agreed "tier" series for the various artifacts, and then figure out modifications that would move each artifact into some middle tier, except for a few special artifacts that are intentionally bad or good (never random artifacts, though).

By not using mathematics, you don't have to debate issues like, for instance, "is it really desirable to have teleportitis?", which has a different answer depending on the context. It also avoids the issue of things like "is this medallion better than that weapon?".

As for improving on the excitement of finding artifacts, the best way to do that is to expand on the variety of artifacts, rather than making artifacts less well-defined. There are plenty of ideas for great artifacts out there, they should be added into the game (with appropriate balancing modifications, of course). And beyond that, adding more backstory to each artifact would be great - perhaps there could be a few NPCs scattered through the game that each know the backstories of some subset of the artifacts, but they could only tell you those backstories if you show the artifact to them.

And to expand the purpose of these NPCs a little further, each one could know some information about one or two of the guaranteed artifacts, so if you talk to one, he might talk about the Ankh and the AMW if asked about the pyramid, for instance. And perhaps a few of them could even have an artifact that they carry (from the new ones added to be added to the game), that can be obtained either by trading a requested artifact or by killing the NPC, with appropriate side-effects from each decision.

There could even be a trading sequence - if you obtain a particular artifact, then you can trade it with one NPC for another artifact, which another NPC wants for another one, and so on through a sequence... and if you complete the sequence legitimately, you get some major reward.

[Overheat]

Increasing the variety can be done by allowing all artifacts to be found randomly, except the guaranteed obviously.

Coming up with rankings is hard because people just like different artifacts. For example, I think that Vanquisher is severely overrated and that skullcrusher and a shield is better because the only hard thing in the game that vanquisher would slay that skullcrusher would not is the ACW.

Also, many artifacts value depend on the PC that finds them. Preserver is not as useful for troll healers and someone with executor will not use skullcrusher very much.

Yet, some sort of standard can be set, because BoW is the best thing to have 99% of the time in the bracer slot.