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View Full Version : Bold approach to stats in JADE



pblack
04-28-2009, 04:43 AM
Here I am. Reading some posts on magic using for JADE and i thought of something that could improve realism and at the same time render some of the "artificial" limits crated inside the game mechanics, unnecessary.

The main idea is very very simple. Normally, in almost every RPG you and I have ever played, we had a given set of stats from wich the skills were derived. What I propose is some kind of dependance between those stats. You see posts all over the forum about trying to cap a magicians capacity to melee or a fighters ability to cast magic by "artificial" means like imposing DV penalties for wearing armor or limiting the learning ability of fighter classes like you currently have in adom.

My idea is simply to make everything "character" related depend heavily on the PC stats.

For example: Someone that uses a bradsword and a tower shield all the time will be bound to have high strength naturally... it trains that attribute. And much like in the real world, if you dont train something, it attrofies, so if that PC dont study often, it will loose learning att over time, as well as mana or anything else that he/she doesen't train. that apporoach in its extreme, should lead to a compeletely class-free system, being that "you are what you do". Now, that shouldn't necessarily be that extreme, we could maintain the normal class system with the change of there being no att increasing pots in the game, and an increased value of att training gain.

On the opposite site, the loss of atts by not using them:

A sorcerer with high CHA that never uses whips, daggers, rarely has to evade traps and so on... that guy could seriously end up with shit for dexterity by the end game because he never used it. And so this kind of thing doesen't happen we should see that simply walking around, while it shouldn't be enough for bumbing up you DX to the 20's it should be enough to maintain it at a low-nonheroic state like 8...10...or even 12... (that low limit could be class related, assassins would get 12 dx just from walking around, while barbarians would get 8. And the latter could get higher st from carrying little weight around, while the former couldnt)

The second aspect of my idea is the actual "bold" one. Now, with that previous approach, a fighter is only a real good fighter if he persists on being that. But theres NO artificial limit to what he can become during the game... he might begin with the stats of a fighter but he might choose to become a mage ANYTIME! he just has to read a book to train his learning stat and cast spells for his mana (also this would require that every character find equal amount of loot of all kinds throuout the game). This would require NO artificial capping for anything for any class and it would improve multiclassing possibilities without the artificialism of D&D multiclassing (in my opinion).

With all that in mind, being that a char is relying heavily on his stats the whole engine of JADE should revolve around the stats. It shouldn't be easy to get to 30+ st with any character (remember, no att increasing pots), but if you do get there... you can expect to have and awesome str-based char. Str related skills should improve accordingly so that the whole "package" is very reliable by the end game. You focused on strenght, and you reap the rewards...you focused on mana...and you do the same. And the middle ground is also available. A battlemage or a paladin don't have to be strict classes but just a flavor of some other, much more rudimentary, class, like a fighter turned mage or a priest turned fighter (there could be some kind of guild system to earn the actual "paladin" title and related skills).

Just not to say that this approach would have zero limitations...

For a caster to learn wish, he would have to be a fucking great caster. And that means playing a pure caster throuout 95% of the game, wich is by itself a limitation since a player that starts with a fighter class and skillset would have a shiload of trouble to accomplish.

Another observation. Most skills, even class specific ones, should be available in-game for anyone with the right stats and competences. thats what i mean when i say that everything should be linked to the stats during the game. You have to work on THOSE STATS to become whatever you want... the key is just to find the right balance for stat increasing to allow differente characters to have different stats even thou they followed the same path.

Fullmoon
05-05-2009, 08:23 PM
First of all, somewhere around already is discussion about stats naturally decreasing without training. It seems majority agreed that this is bad idea. On the other hand, idea about different limits for natural stat training, that is, 'just from walking around' for different classes seems interesting.

Idea about skills heavily depended on stats - interesting, we should discuss it. Idea about some quest-like requrements for Wish also nice.

Now, about your 'bold' idea - how exactly it is different from that existed in ADOM? Even troll barbarian could learn a spell or two, but he is troll barbarian, not the elven wizard. He choosed his profession and learned till he was 10, for Andor's sake! Why he should become one of these funny mumblers in feeble robes and with stupid quarterstaves?

To sum it all - there are only two ways - strict slass system or free multiclassing. Mixing them is bad idea.

Evil Knievel
05-05-2009, 08:45 PM
First of all, somewhere around already is discussion about stats naturally decreasing without training. It seems majority agreed that this is bad idea.

I have to state, that I don't think of it as a bad idea a priorily - only to ensure, that apart from the assumed majority, we (I?) - the minority - get our voice. I'd say, it depends how this is balanced and constrained - which undoubtly is difficult.

JellySlayer
05-05-2009, 10:48 PM
The problem I have is that I don't consider this more realistic than the current system at all. If you play an elf wizard in ADOM, your character has trained for over 100 years to become that profession. Do you seriously expect him to become a master swordsman--hell, even a good swordsman--in 30 days? In the real world, on the timescales that we're looking at in a game like ADOM, your stats, skills, etc. would never change at all--you just can't make that big of an improvement in your abilities in such a short period of time.

I don't really have a problem with the class system as it is, myself. I think the diversity in class/race in ADOM is one of the things that gives it such good replay value: in a game where your character is capable of doing everything at once, perfectly well, I think makes things less interesting, because once you've played through, you've pretty much seen everything. ADOM doesn't take that long to play... if you really want to play a character who can cast spells very well, roll a wizard. If you want a strong fighter, roll a barbarian. If you want someone who does both reasonably well, roll a bard or a paladin.

On an unrelated note, one system that I've always thought was very clever was the system in the game Daggerfall where you could add beneficial traits and negative penalties to your character in creation that would have an effect on your overall gameplay. For example, you can add a power where your character regenerates health quickly, or is immune to paralysis, and a penalty where your character can't use equipment of a certain metal, and takes double damage from shock attacks. The better the advantages you took, the longer it takes to increase your level, unless you offset those traits by correspondingly bad penalties.

Arcanex
05-06-2009, 05:24 PM
I like the idea of having synergies between stats (e.g. training strength would result in an increase in toughness) because this would make for a more realistic and dynamic system. To be honest though, I reckon that only a very complex system could have the entire system of classes smoothly revolve around stats. Stats decreasing naturally would mean that trying to hone a character to a specific task would make them very unbalanced, and having to preserve stats would slow down the game.

You could go down a different road though, if stats had anti-synergies, (e.g. becoming an absolute tank could abuse dexterity due to the fact that you simply wouldn't need to take evasive action) this would achieve the effect of having to actively change your character into something else, and limit the capability to simply become a Jack of All Trades.

In terms of realism though, a ridiculously strong and tough fighter who suddenly decides to learn magic wouldn't wind up losing their physical prowess due to dedicating their time to studying books. Perhaps over a very long time, but not over the course of a normal game. Also: the same fighter wouldn't have as easy a time of it as a natural wizard would. Perhaps the more that your character becomes adapted to one style, the more effort it should take to change to one that relies on different stats.

Personally I quite like the way that classes eventually become fairly irrelevant in a game of ADOM - it means that after the early game you can generally start making changes and finish the game it whatever way you want.

pblack
05-07-2009, 04:44 AM
Now, about your 'bold' idea - how exactly it is different from that existed in ADOM? Even troll barbarian could learn a spell or two, but he is troll barbarian, not the elven wizard. He choosed his profession and learned till he was 10, for Andor's sake! Why he should become one of these funny mumblers in feeble robes and with stupid quarterstaves?.

I agree that adom does allow some multiclassing to occur, but the items generated in game are always the ones more beneficial to the class....assassins find more daggers, wiz's more books and so on. Also, monks can increase their learning to the 40's, have concentration and literacy in 100 and still suck at learning spells, that's just frustrating.

Classes should still exist, and serve as a guideline to a "recommended" path, but it shouldn't impose any artificial limit.

Fullmoon
05-07-2009, 12:11 PM
Evil Knievel, sorry, didn't meant to sound like that. And yes, my point was that balancing it would be too difficult.

pblack, look at it from different point - aside from 5 (or 6?) magic classes (and monk isn't one of them), no one is professionally trained to read spellbooks. You know, like books about quantum physics - they are somewhat difficult to concentrate on.

Sradac
05-07-2009, 06:22 PM
wizard, necro, druid, priest................

what other classes are there???

elementalists dont count they find as many books as a fighter.

Fullmoon
05-10-2009, 07:22 PM
Wizard, necromancer, druid(forgot about him), priest, elementalist (they read books better than fighter(or I'm wrong?)), paladin, bard(?). Seven, actually.

Sradac
05-12-2009, 04:21 AM
ohhh i thought you were refering to classes considered casters that find a decent amount of spellbooks. Well shouldnt a beastfighter with the same Le as a paladin and same literacy skill have the same success??

pblack
05-23-2009, 02:27 AM
pblack, look at it from different point - aside from 5 (or 6?) magic classes (and monk isn't one of them), no one is professionally trained to read spellbooks. You know, like books about quantum physics - they are somewhat difficult to concentrate on.

Being a physics graduate student i can say that YES they are hard to concentrate on... LOL

But jokes aside, I guess i can see your point. Being that the player already start with a certain history and training in the chosen class. I guess my approach coul still be put to use if you just eliminate the player history. But if you eliminate this previous history you got no means of justifying the starting attributes and skills for anyone because there was no previous training.

But still, i grant that an apprentice wizard would have an easier time learning spells than anyone else, but i feel that the class limitations are somewhat harsh. Maybe a beastfighter would become too powerful if he could learn high end spells, but he should at least be given the chance to cas a frost bolt every once in a while if the PC spent time and effort building up the right stats for that to happen. Classes such as Bfighter and barbarian are always "prohibited" from learning spells. And prohibitions should only be race related... classes got nothing to do with the potential of a character.