PDA

View Full Version : The new melee system - let's evaluate.



grobblewobble
03-25-2012, 09:11 PM
The original ADOM has in many ways a respectable game balance, in my opinion. When you just start out you need to be careful even with rats (depending on class of course), and there is a nice, gradual progression of tougher and tougher opponents. Of course there are some opponents that are a real challenge in melee and usually taken out with ranged attacks, but if you play a melee class and are clever about it, you can defeat every opponent in melee.

In JADE, new combat mechanics were introduced and old ones changed. Even though this is a beta, I think the game has been developed far enough to start discussing the new balance, at least as far as melee is concerned.

What do we think about the new melee combat balance? Are certain styles too good or not good enough? How about the monsters, in general?

My own impression is that at the moment, the differences between opponents are too great. In other words, the general tendency seems to be that you are killing loads of monsters that can't even scratch you, but then suddenly a monster that you expect to be slightly stronger rips you to shreds.

On the side of characters, I have the impression that the difference between a troll and a non-troll is a bit too large; the advantages of trolls in melee seem too dramatic to me. This is partly because of the new size effects (which make dramatic difference in monster strength as well, i.e. monsters fighting with large great swords hacking you to bits).

Do you agree? What do you think?

Laukku
03-25-2012, 09:25 PM
I agree, the balance is all over the place. The size effects are far too great and should be halved. There are too many humanoids that wield overpowered weapons (the "great" variety) that can kill even trolls very quickly, but are rarely dropped. "Great" weapons are something that should only appear on later levels. HP values are very inflated compared to ADOM; all player characters have lots of HP, but also receive lots of damage. PV however stays at ADOM levels, and thus it is very difficult to find enough PV. Items should grant something like douple of the PV that they currently do.

Al-Khwarizmi
03-25-2012, 10:48 PM
I think Laukku hit the main nail on the head. I thing the main unbalancing factor right now is that HP and damage are disproportionately high relative to PV. We need either PV items with more PV, or all HP and weapon damage (including the player's, of course) to be divided by a factor.

I think if that were adjusted, a big part of the balance problems would go away. It actually makes perfect sense that monsters with weapons do more damage than monsters attacking with their bare hands, the problem is that armour won't protect the player from that kind of damage.

Another issue that has been commented in other threads is that shades and wights' stat drains are overpowered. Although this may fix itself when we get ways to deal with them from afar (such as missiles), I still think that should be toned down a bit, along with stat loss caused by (apparently) bloatedness in the wilderness.

About the size differences and trolls, I disagree with the previous posters. I think it is very interesting that big races deal much more damage but, on the other hand and as a balancing factor, they find it much more difficult than smaller races to find armour of their size. That allows for choices and different playstyles and that's good. I think rather than nerfing bigger races' damage, which would make the game more uniform, it's better to balance things by making more emphasis on the differences. If playing big races is really easier (I'm unsure, my most successful characters at the moment are dwarven monks), instead of nerfing them by making them more similar to medium races, nerf them by making them more different: for example impose Dx or maybe speed penalties on them (this is coherent with laws of nature, bigger creatures are clumsier by the square-cube law), or DV penalties (larger surface to defend and more places to get hit on if you're big, this is implemented in D&D rules IIRC).

Toll
03-26-2012, 04:23 AM
I think there is a great difference between troll and non-troll and I think that difference should stay. A large creature like that should be doing huge damage. My thoughts are similar to the above, those large creatures should also be much slower. Swinging a tree stump around should have so much momentum that the guy with a rapier can stick 10 holes in me between swings. I also think the Troll's have a few too many HP's, it seems excessive. The damage output should remain.

mike3
03-26-2012, 08:42 AM
About the size differences and trolls, I disagree with the previous posters. I think it is very interesting that big races deal much more damage but, on the other hand and as a balancing factor, they find it much more difficult than smaller races to find armour of their size. That allows for choices and different playstyles and that's good.

What sort of "choices" do you mean?

Also, I've noticed that sometimes a monster will come along that'll be stubbornly difficult to damage yet keep whittling HP away from you and it is of a common type that is otherwise not hard. These seem to almost invariably kill you or block your route and I think this needs changing.

Orbic
03-26-2012, 09:03 AM
I do not agree with the above.

Use the "l"ook command - you get information on DV, PV , HP and weaponry your opponent carries around.
Use a warrior monk / nun level 3 and disarm those 2-handers / heavy weapons. You can get yourself a nice set this way.

Of course long range attacks are missing and costing a high toll of hurtlings at the moment, but what I like right now is that we have to learn and adapt to this new game. I'm happy that my ADOM experience is worth nearly nothing at the moment!

I like the size balance. Imagine a hurtling killing trolls in melee in 1 blow from a toothpick-sized sword... ridiculous. Flee! Dodge! Disarm! escape into the wilderness and watch the stupid troll disappear in the distance ;)

Elone
03-26-2012, 10:01 AM
Indeed, I find the bows rather ineffective in this version, as are slings. I find the current magic system rather inadequate for combat as well.

Al-Khwarizmi
03-26-2012, 11:14 AM
What sort of "choices" do you mean?
Playstyle choices. Like, in this case, dealing great amounts of damage from the get go but being unable to use most of the equipment found in shops and dungeons vs. dealing less damage but having a much larger choice of easy-to-find equipment.

If the idea of the Dx, Sp or DV mods I mentioned were implemented, you would also have to choose between being big and hitting for lots of damage but being clumsy/slow, or being small and making few damage but being agile and fast.

It would be cool to have also small races (like pixies or similar) that would do petty damage but be experts in keeping out of trouble via speed and DV. A pixie could kill troll brutes by keeping at a distance and firing at them with a tiny bow... at least if he didn't get surrounded, of course.

grobblewobble
03-26-2012, 11:39 AM
If playing big races is really easier (I'm unsure, my most successful characters at the moment are dwarven monks), instead of nerfing them by making them more similar to medium races, nerf them by making them more different: for example impose Dx or maybe speed penalties on them (this is coherent with laws of nature, bigger creatures are clumsier by the square-cube law), or DV penalties (larger surface to defend and more places to get hit on if you're big, this is implemented in D&D rules IIRC).

I really like this idea. Very elegant and realistic. Monsters wielding great large weapons could get a speed (or DV) penalty as well.

JellySlayer
03-26-2012, 09:35 PM
What do we think about the new melee combat balance? Are certain styles too good or not good enough? How about the monsters, in general?

I haven't played that many games yet, so my results might be a bit skewed, but...

I haven't noticed much of a problem with regular monsters that I have come across. There have been a few close calls, and some monsters can be quite tough (the hill orc family, for example, tend to be quite a bit stronger than monsters of comparable DL). Stat drains from Wights and Shadows are really, really bad, and I think should probably be nerfed, even after missiles get introduced. My last game ended with my first encounter with a Troll. He was hitting over 100 damage on me, and pretty much mopped the floor with me. It might be that I was in an area that was just too high DL for me (I went investigating one of the chaos shard dungeons with my level 13+1 barbarian+thief, who had maybe 15-20 PV and 200 HP), but I hadn't run across any other monsters there that had given me any trouble, and had cleared one level and most of a second.

I think overall, the early game fighting might be a bit too easy. Very few of the early monsters can punch through more than a couple PV, and you gain health pretty fast. PC health regeneration is also much faster. I don't think I've ever been as successful at a Roguelike I've never played before as I have been at ADOM II.

Al-Khwarizmi
03-26-2012, 10:18 PM
My last game ended with my first encounter with a Troll. He was hitting over 100 damage on me, and pretty much mopped the floor with me. It might be that I was in an area that was just too high DL for me (I went investigating one of the chaos shard dungeons with my level 13+1 barbarian+thief, who had maybe 15-20 PV and 200 HP), but I hadn't run across any other monsters there that had given me any trouble, and had cleared one level and most of a second.
He may have been a troll brute using his mighty blow. On my last game, after killing practically all monsters he was finding in a single blow, my mountain dwarven monk died to two of those. He descended a staircase and he found himself right before two of those troll brutes. The first made a mighty blow (there is a message reporting that) for around 80 HP, and then the other did the same thing.

mike3
03-26-2012, 10:23 PM
I haven't played that many games yet, so my results might be a bit skewed, but...

I haven't noticed much of a problem with regular monsters that I have come across. There have been a few close calls, and some monsters can be quite tough (the hill orc family, for example, tend to be quite a bit stronger than monsters of comparable DL). Stat drains from Wights and Shadows are really, really bad, and I think should probably be nerfed, even after missiles get introduced. My last game ended with my first encounter with a Troll. He was hitting over 100 damage on me, and pretty much mopped the floor with me. It might be that I was in an area that was just too high DL for me (I went investigating one of the chaos shard dungeons with my level 13+1 barbarian+thief, who had maybe 15-20 PV and 200 HP), but I hadn't run across any other monsters there that had given me any trouble, and had cleared one level and most of a second.

I think overall, the early game fighting might be a bit too easy. Very few of the early monsters can punch through more than a couple PV, and you gain health pretty fast. PC health regeneration is also much faster. I don't think I've ever been as successful at a Roguelike I've never played before as I have been at ADOM II.

Early game is too easy? I lose many (most?) games near the beginning due to orcs and hobgobs that don't want to go down in combat and/or have big weapons.

JellySlayer
03-27-2012, 07:15 PM
He may have been a troll brute using his mighty blow. On my last game, after killing practically all monsters he was finding in a single blow, my mountain dwarven monk died to two of those. He descended a staircase and he found himself right before two of those troll brutes. The first made a mighty blow (there is a message reporting that) for around 80 HP, and then the other did the same thing.

Yeah, it was a troll brute. Just got killed by another one today who got a critical hit for 150+ damage on me. I guess I gotta start taking some monk levels on my barbarians so I can disarm them.

Has anyone else noticed that there seem to be an awful lot of monsters near the stairs when you descend? I've found it's not that uncommon to find yourself surrounded by 3-5 monsters immediately upon descent.

Al-Khwarizmi
03-28-2012, 01:41 AM
Has anyone else noticed that there seem to be an awful lot of monsters near the stairs when you descend? I've found it's not that uncommon to find yourself surrounded by 3-5 monsters immediately upon descent.
Yes, I have that impression as well. Maybe ADOM had some code to soften the generation of monsters in the room to which you descend and ADOM II doesn't have it, or something.

grobblewobble
03-28-2012, 01:53 PM
I guess I gotta start taking some monk levels on my barbarians so I can disarm them.
The new multiclass is interesting, although I'm not sure I fully understand it. My feeling is that at the moment, anyone should take at least three levels of monk. The disarm ability is too good to pass up and three levels is not a high cost to pay.

Toll
03-28-2012, 02:09 PM
Hence why disarming is a little too good for the level, it should be Level 6. This way people cant just 'take a few levels in Monk to get disarm' otherwise it will almost be a required build.

grobblewobble
03-28-2012, 02:21 PM
Yes, exactly. In fact, I actually think level 12 is better than six.

As I said I don't *fully* understand the implications of multiclassing, but I fear it will lead to less variety between characters, not more. I'm afraid all characters will start to look the same, with 3 levels of this for bonus X, 6 levels of that for super class power Y, etc etc.

rami
03-29-2012, 08:47 AM
I agree with your sentiment regarding multiclassing and personally I think multiclassing is a bad idea altogether. For example, if ADOM 1 had multiclassing, the optimal build for non-spellcasters would most likely include Barbarian/Monk powers for decreased energy cost of moving, Barbarian's mighty blow, and Archer's decreased energy cost of ranged attacks. Whether you play Fighter, Paladin or Weaponsmith, you would cripple your character if you didn't include the aforementioned classes into the build. This is especially problematic because class powers in ADOM 1 are heavily imbalanced, with a lot of irrelevant fluff and a few good ones.

Moreover, I don't think it adds much to the game - it essentially boils down to "choose your next class power yourself" and that choice could be made more direct and transparent to the player.

JellySlayer
03-29-2012, 07:26 PM
I've yet to see a game do a really good job of dealing with multiclassing. Most of them either have the problem that multiclassing is so good, that if you don't do it, you're basically crippled. Or that whatever disadvantages are included with multiclassing are so severe, that except for maybe one or two builds that work pretty well, there's no point in doing it.

I think if it was set up that you could only choose two classes, it would at least limit the problem that rami is suggesting. IIRC, TB is planning on putting some heavy experience penalties against having too many classes with levels spread too far apart, which might help balance a bit as well.

Al-Khwarizmi
03-29-2012, 09:12 PM
Well, in ADOM I there was already a clearly optimal combination of levels to be chosen to win the game: 50 levels of Wizard :)

It would be great if multiclassing were balanced (in some games it is quite balanced, for example POWDER), but if it's not, it wouldn't be worse that the non-multiclassing system of ADOM I. In ADOM I, classes were never balanced, wizards were the best characters but we still played other characters just for fun, and the same should happen here if the class system is unbalanced.

JellySlayer
03-29-2012, 09:38 PM
Well, in ADOM I there was already a clearly optimal combination of levels to be chosen to win the game: 50 levels of Wizard :)

It would be great if multiclassing were balanced (in some games it is quite balanced, for example POWDER), but if it's not, it wouldn't be worse that the non-multiclassing system of ADOM I. In ADOM I, classes were never balanced, wizards were the best characters but we still played other characters just for fun, and the same should happen here if the class system is unbalanced.

Well, I think you'd probably find that if multiclassing had been available in ADOM I, 50 levels of wizard would probably be sub-optimal. Most wizard levels beyond 25 or so are basically just empty levels; wizards actually have pretty crappy class powers compared to a lot of other classes. Taking 31 levels of wizard, 18 levels of monk, and 1 mindcrafter level would almost certainly be superior to 50 levels of wizard.

grobblewobble
03-30-2012, 06:08 PM
Well, in ADOM I there was already a clearly optimal combination of levels to be chosen to win the game: 50 levels of Wizard :)
There is always an optimal class, and that is not a problem. Your class is effectively a sort of "difficulty mode" and that is fine.

The reason I'm worried is that TB stated on his site that he would like ADOM II to be a game with a lot of variety, where there are multiple, very different approaches to the game. But I think that multiclassing, paradoxically, is likely to reduce variety and make all games more alike, when it was meant to do the opposite. Because abilities that used to be unique and give certain classes its own feel, will now be available to every character.

Laukku
03-31-2012, 06:05 PM
The reason I'm worried is that TB stated on his site that he would like ADOM II to be a game with a lot of variety, where there are multiple, very different approaches to the game. But I think that multiclassing, paradoxically, is likely to reduce variety and make all games more alike, when it was meant to do the opposite. Because abilities that used to be unique and give certain classes its own feel, will now be available to every character.

A solution would be to make starting new professions more difficult. There already seems to attribute requirements for advancing in one. Maybe you'd have to go to a guild of a particular profession, and do a mini-quest or challenge. If the guild members are impressed enough, they will grant you the profession and membership. Like how you have to pickpocket enough or steal from a shop to gain membership of the thieves' guild in ADOM.

You know, this feels like the same problem with skills I made a RFE about :-/ There are some optimal skills that everybody takes, reducing variety.

grobblewobble
03-31-2012, 07:35 PM
Has anyone else noticed that there seem to be an awful lot of monsters near the stairs when you descend? I've found it's not that uncommon to find yourself surrounded by 3-5 monsters immediately upon descent.

Yes. Sometimes you even descend into the middle of a threat room. I had one spectacular YASD when landing into the middle of a room full of jackalweres. I don't want to imagine landing in a room full of wights.. should also be possible.

JellySlayer
03-31-2012, 07:37 PM
Might want to report that as a bug.

grobblewobble
03-31-2012, 08:13 PM
I think overall, the early game fighting might be a bit too easy. Very few of the early monsters can punch through more than a couple PV, and you gain health pretty fast. PC health regeneration is also much faster.

This is an interesting observation. My thought was that health regeneration seems slow, in fact.. at least at higher levels. Perhaps it's too fast for low levels as you suggest..
My troll monk level 20+ was taking ages after every fight healing up. He regenerated about 13 HP in 100 turns, while I had invested many skill points in healing. With 600 HP, he spent hundreds of turns waiting to heal up. I think healing was about 20, it said "+20 percent", or thereabout, IIRC. If that means 20% of your natural regeneration rate, all these skill points might have resulted in gaining 2 extra HP every 100 turns.