[newbie] WoW found quite early - suggestions?

[sorrow]

Hello,

My first post here (but I have been playing the game for quite a long time now, however - not managed to win so far).
I am currently playing as a DE Wizard and it seemed "regular" until the dwarf identified the stuff - and WoW with 5 charges. So, the question is - what do I use it for? The story so far:
- no Kranach, cute dog died, carpenter saved
- visited HMV
- cleared Griffyard, though the dwarf was tough
- cleared Pyramid
- done first quest for the dwarf ("kill a skeleton")
- tried visiting Darkforge (bad luck: tension room full of gorgons)

My idea for wishing would be:
- pairs of 7lb (obviously)
- amulets of life saving (have not yet ventured beyond dwarftown)
- rings of teleport control (to see if there is anything interesting in the Darkforge) - yes, I tried stairhopping in ID, but found *no* blink dogs (I am pretty sure I will meet tons of them once I waste a wish on TC)
- red dragon scale mail (unless I find =Fire in the Darkforge)
- ? something for waterbreathing (visiting Blup's mum)? rings of weakness (for the Ogre Cave)?

My plans are:
- getting RoHK and kitty ring
- time permitting, the Library (for Acid Ball)

Any suggestions? I think that with having 5 (6? is the final one available with WoW?) wishes my chances of winning (or at least reaching D:50) are somewhat increased. Thanks in advance.

By the way, this is 1.2.0p3.

The log (with useless things removed) follows:



Gupik St:16 Le:23 Wi:23 Dx:21 To:14 Ch:14 Ap:23 Ma:29 Pe:21 N-
DV/PV: 34/14 H: 76(76) P: 222(222) Exp: 15/153721 D: 11 Sp: 102
DV/PV: 34/14 H: 76(76) P: 222(222) Exp: 15/153721 M: 31551

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Background Information
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Gupik Race: male Gray Elf Class: Wizard
Age: 309 (grown-up, 12 years of unnatural aging added in)
Star sign: Wand Birthday: 22/Wand (day 82 of the year)

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Weapon Skills
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Melee weapon Lvl Hit Dam DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Clubs & hammers 5 +3 +2 +1 skilled 71
Swords 3 +2 +1 +0 basic 62
Axes 4 +3 +2 +0 skilled 116

Missile weapon Lvl Hit Dam Ra Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- --- -- ------------- --------------
Bows 1 +2 +1 +0 basic 19

Shields Lvl DV Level Required marks
--------------------- --- --- ------------- --------------
Shields 5 +10 skilled 340


Damage caused with your melee weapons:
--------------------------------------
Right hand: +21 bonus to hit, 4d3+5 damage


Damage caused with your missile weapons:
----------------------------------------
Ammunition: 5, base range: 4, +18 bonus to hit, 2d4+12 damage

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spells
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burning Hands : 257, 4pp (Effectivity: +15)
Calm Monster : 661, 6pp (Effectivity: +1)
Cure Light Wounds : 655, 3pp (Effectivity: +5)
Cure Serious Wounds: 386, 8pp (Effectivity: +0)
Darkness : 480, 3pp (Effectivity: +0)
Destroy Undead : 465, 5pp (Effectivity: +5)
Disarm Trap : 513, 8pp (Effectivity: +0)
Farsight : 622, 13pp (Effectivity: +0)
Fire Bolt : 396, 5pp (Effectivity: +15)
Fireball : 250, 14pp (Effectivity: +5)
Frost Bolt : 413, 7pp (Effectivity: +12)
Ice Ball : 173, 19pp (Effectivity: +1)
Improved Fireball : 258, 22pp (Effectivity: +0)
Invisibility : 312, 8pp (Effectivity: +3)
Knock : 330, 8pp (Effectivity: +5)
Light : 435, 2pp (Effectivity: +3)
Lightning Bolt : 141, 9pp (Effectivity: +4)
Magic Lock : 350, 6pp (Effectivity: +0)
Magic Missile : 471, 4pp (Effectivity: +21)
Mystic Shovel : 653, 72pp (Effectivity: +2)
Slow Monster : 865, 5pp (Effectivity: +1)
Slow Poison : 433, 4pp (Effectivity: +0)
Strength of Atlas : 360, 7pp (Effectivity: +8)
Teleportation : 955, 16pp (Effectivity: +4)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skills
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alchemy .............. 99 (superb) [+2d4]
Climbing ............. 66 (good) [+1d5]
Concentration ........100 (superb) [+2d4]
Detect traps ......... 57 (good) [+1d5]
Dodge ................ 48 (fair) [+1d5]
First aid ............ 58 (good) [+1d5]
Haggling ............. 30 (mediocre) [+3d3]
Healing .............. 80 (great) [+1d3]
Herbalism ............100 (superb) [+2d4]
Listening ............ 83 (great) [+1d5]
Literacy .............100 (superb) [+2d4]
Pick pockets ......... 63 (good) [+1d5]
Stealth .............. 87 (great) [+1d3]
Ventriloquism ........ 37 (fair) [+3d3]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 5846 stones Carrying capacity: 30650 stones

Head : blessed horned helmet [+1, +1] [100s]
Neck : -
Body : uncursed elven chain mail [+0, +5] [10s]
Girdle : uncursed metal girdle [+0, +1] [25s]
Cloak : uncursed cloak of protection [+0, +3] [20s]
Right Hand : uncursed sword of Nonnak (+2, 4d3+2) [+2, +2] {Wi+5} [80s]
Left Hand : uncursed rusty large shield [+5, +1] [120s]
Right Ring : uncursed ring of protection +1 [1s]
Left Ring : uncursed ring of stun resistance [1s]
Bracers : -
Gauntlets : blessed gloves of dexterity [+0, +0] {Dx+4} [6s]
Boots : uncursed leather boots [+0, +0] [25s]
Missile Weapon: uncursed short bow (+1, +3) [20s]
Missiles : bundle of 5 uncursed arrows of undead slaying (+3, 2d4+3)
Tool : -


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total weight: 5428 stones Carrying capacity: 30650 stones

Helmets ('[')
uncursed helm of teleportation [+0, +1] [50s]
Armor ('[')
uncursed ancient mummy wrapping [+1, +5] {Ap-8} [60s]
Shields ('[')
heap of 4 uncursed medium shields [+3, +1] [400s]
uncursed tower shield (-2) [+7, +2] [150s]
Gauntlets ('[')
uncursed elemental gauntlets (-1, +0) [+0, +3] [10s]
Necklaces (''')
uncursed amulet of death ray resistance [7s]
uncursed amulet of petrification resistance [3s]
heap of 2 uncursed amulets of greed [6s]
uncursed pendant of beauty {Ap+4} [3s]
uncursed amulet of perseverance {Wi+3} [3s]
blessed amulet of order [3s]
blessed necklace of the eye [3s]
uncursed necklace of rapid healing [2s]
cursed amulet of the cold heart {Ch-12} [3s]
cursed amulet of light [3s]
uncursed brass amulet [3s]
cursed amulet of greed [3s]
uncursed amulet of the cold heart {Ch-12} [3s]
uncursed ankh [3s]
One-handed weapons ('(')
blessed hatchet of might (+0, 1d6+1) [50s]
Missiles ('/')
bundle of 15 uncursed arrows of targeting (+6, 1d6) [30s]
bundle of 18 uncursed arrows of hunting (+0, 1d6) [36s]
bundle of 9 cursed arrows of giant slaying (+3, 1d10+6) [18s]
bundle of 11 uncursed arrows of humanoid slaying (+3, 1d6+6) [22s]
Rings ('=')
uncursed wedding ring [1s]
uncursed ring of damage [1s]
uncursed ring of cold resistance [1s]
heap of 2 uncursed rings of acid resistance [2s]
heap of 2 uncursed rings of stun resistance [2s]
blessed wedding ring [1s]
uncursed ring of invisibility [1s]
Wands ('\')
cursed wand of wishing (5 charges) [3s]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Killed Monsters
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1537 monsters perished under his attacks.

The following monsters were vanquished (among others):
1 bone golem
1 crime lord
2 half-orc bouncers
1 master necromancer
1 mummy lord

[Alucard]

Yep, looks like you have a good idea already. 7LBs, AoLS, RDSM. Don't forget corruption removal, though saving Khelly and (presumably) visiting the library and getting and turning in the weird tome will help a bunch with that. Maybe swords of sharpness for you.

Me, I have a game going where I have seven wishes, and I already have RDSM, TC, and 7LBs and I'm past Khelly. I do need corruption removal scrolls and the Teleport spell, but then ?

[grobblewobble]

First of all, looking at your character he is in dire need of morgia. Toughness 14 is much too low. With toughness 25 (should only take about 30 roots), your HP will double. This should be the highest priority.

Yes, you can wrench a final charge, so 6 wishes. Do you want to try an ultra, or just win? Assuming you don't care about an ultra:

AoLS and 7LB sound good.

Wishing for rings of TC sounds a bit like a desperation measure. There is still plenty of time to find those. At least try poolsipping first before you spend a wish on that.

Red dragon scale mail is not great for a wizard, either. In a normal game you always have two sources of -fire from items: RoTHK and elemental gauntlets. If you add intrinsic -fire (which will probably happen soon enough inside the tower), you're immune. Even if you're unlucky and can't get the intrinsic, damage won't be that bad with 2 sources of -fire.

I advise against wishing for amulets of waterbreathing. In fact, imo it is better never to enter the WDC at all. You will not find anything good there as a wizard, it never has spellbooks. And it is a very dangerous place. Even the RCT isn't very interesting when you have acid ball.

As a wizard, offense is going to be your best defense. For the tower, your best bet is to wish for spellbooks of ice ball. For the rest of the game, I think it is best to wish for spellbooks of acid ball. No need to enter the library.

But at this moment in the game, I would first wish for eternium tower shields. They're perfect for a wizard, will serve you well for the whole game and they're a big upgrade from what you have now.

So, in summary, my advice:

1. Eternium tower shields
2. Pairs of seven league boots
3. Amulet of life saving
4. Spellbooks of ice ball
EDIT: looking back at your character, he already has ice ball, so never mind.. maybe keep a wish in case you need something later
5. Spellbooks of acid ball
6. Spellbooks of acid ball

[grobblewobble]

Alucard: what R/C? Did you save Khelly, and if so, do you want an ultra finish?

[sorrow]

Many thanks for the advice.

I would be more than happy with an ordinary win. The spellbooks are tempting, I have not thought of that. On average, how many does one get with a wish?

As for morgia - I am planning on farming herbs in the big cave soon. I should already have intrinsic -fire from fire beetles, so fire damage there should not be a problem. I think I will postpone Darkforge to just before the Tower to see if I can make it. Prehaps something will grant teleport control by then.

[Alucard]

Alucard: what R/C? Did you save Khelly, and if so, do you want an ultra finish?

Khelly's dead. DE Paladin.

[Maul]

Spellbooks of Ice Ball? What a waste that would be, even if that character didn't yet have Ice Ball. The ACW isn't vulnerable to ice. A single wish for Acid Ball books will suffice, just chug your potions of boost learning before reading them.

If I were you, I'd save a charge or two in case you need SoCRs later or something. Just don't keep it with you in case you make a mistake with mana battery corruption installed.

[JellySlayer]

My suggestions would be:

-Seven league Boots
-Spellbooks of acid ball (I don't think you need multiple wishes of these... Each wish gives 2-3 books)
-Amulet of life saving
-Rings of teleport control (Might as well...)

Water breathing is not worth a wish. There is a guaranteed item of water breathing on the lowest level of the Rift if you really want something, but once you get teleportation control, you can visit the WDC even without WBreathing if you don't waste time.

The last two wishes I think should be used to wish for experience. Ancient karmic wyrms were the best choice in 1.1.1, but you don't get as much experience from them as you used to. 2-3 ancient karmic wyrms will still probably net you 10 levels though. If you have teleport control, 7lbs, and either a tonne of magic missile or reasonably high range acid ball (and preferably farsight), then you should wish for emperor moloch in the barbarian glade. This will summon many, many greater molochs to the barbarian glade, but with teleportation and extra speed, you should be able to keep away from them and bolt them all to death. Don't let them hit you in melee. If you kill them all, you should be at around level 50. They can't cross the river, so you can hide there if you want. Make an ice bridge for yourself then melt the path behind you and bolt them from there.

[edit]Also: You should be wearing the ankh and mummy wrapping. And be SURE to bless your wand (at least uncurse) before you start wishing. Cursed wands of wishing can fail and waste wishes IIRC.

[grobblewobble]

Instead of wishing for rings of TC, wishing for a blink dog would give the intrinsic without occupying a ring slot.

[Joe]

With 6 wishes you are very well supplied... I'd try to think of the best way of increasing hp to prevent dying to traps and the like. So same advice as others (7LB, AoLS and eventually acidball/eternium shields). I think the most efficient way of boosting HP (after morgiafarming) is the experience approach from Jellyslayer: wishing for emperor moloch and killing them all.

[sorrow]

Ok, so the consensus seems to be AoLS, 7LB, spellbooks of Acid Ball. And I like the idea of eternium shields. The plan for now would be to a) increase To, b) do the remaining dwarf quests and hope that there are blink dogs or other source of teleport control (if not, well, I see if I really need it). As for the last wish, experience sounds tempting. I will keep this thread updated to ask for more advice later on.

[nipon621]

Agree with your first few choices. Pairs of 7LBs are the most immediately valuable in terms of survival and damage potential. AoLS is by far the second most valuable thing to you assuming you get to the dying sage - that wish will net you 6 blessed SoCR, spellbook of identify, spellbook of teleport, other stuff.

Agree with grobble - your willpower is a major liability at this point, and toughness is also very key. Both can be trained with morgia. There are plenty of tutorials on how to use a 2x2 patch of herbs to fill up a whole room with just a few potions of holy water.

Once you have dealt with the willpower and toughness, tail it back to the ID till you find a blink dog and farm it for corpses. Keep a careful eye on your xp, because the pyramid closes at level 18, but you pretty much need TC to guarantee victory there.

After that, see if you think you could survive a darkforge raid (depends on number of detect monster items you have) and see what it has to offer for you. If you are still in good shape, head back to the CoC, and work your way to Khelly (doing thundarr's quests of course) and try to do the water temple (carefully)...

And here's the key: If it becomes readily apparent at any point during this process that your PC lacks something that you are unlikely to obtain in a manner other than wishing, wish for it (typically this should match items in the popular wish list). There isn't any need to spend them recklessly though. Wishes saved for rainy days can save lives, and you need to remember that random loot is generated. There are times that I have found 3 pairs of 7LBs within 5 minutes of wishing for them. Also, remember that effective wish use is a balance between immediate survival, long term potential, and insurance against unforeseen circumstances.

And by the by, 6 charges??? Seriously?

Edit: Though I made no mention of eternium tower shields, they are indeed a very solid investment (although they can be found by forcing a few gift shop restocks), especially if lacking in DV/PV.

[nipon621]

As for the last wish, experience sounds tempting. I will keep this thread updated to ask for more advice later on.

Please consider saving the last charge (and the wrested charge) until another source of wishing is found (RoDS, etc) or you need it. Then again, when I have followed the advice of the ancient members on this forum (no matter how suspiciously I regarded it) it has always been good to me.

Edit: As I mentioned in this post, listen to the ancient members. Turns out I was wrong on this one. I was extrapolating from Nethack, and I am learning more and more that it's a rare situation where the principles of one roguelike can be safely applied to another

[JellySlayer]

Please consider saving the last charge (and the wrested charge) until another source of wishing is found (RoDS, etc) or you need it. Then again, when I have followed the advice of the ancient members on this forum (no matter how suspiciously I regarded it) it has always been good to me.

Saving wishes is a bad idea, IMHO, if there are things that are worth wishing for at that point in time. Normally, when I decide to save a wish, I find that it ends up never getting used. Especially this early in the game, you're better off just taking all of the advantages you can get, as soon as you can get them. A wish at level 10 is worth 5 wishes at level 40, IMHO.

@OP: Just so you know, wands of wishing are basically indestructible. For your AoLS for Khelly, you might as well wish for it when you're standing next to him. AoLS are somewhat fragile... As another option for things to wish for, check out the video in grobblewobble's signature.

[nipon621]

Saving wishes is a bad idea, IMHO, if there are things that are worth wishing for at that point in time. Normally, when I decide to save a wish, I find that it ends up never getting used. Especially this early in the game, you're better off just taking all of the advantages you can get, as soon as you can get them. A wish at level 10 is worth 5 wishes at level 40, IMHO.

@OP: Just so you know, wands of wishing are basically indestructible. For your AoLS for Khelly, you might as well wish for it when you're standing next to him. AoLS are somewhat fragile... As another option for things to wish for, check out the video in grobblewobble's signature.

And there you have it. If JellySlayer says use wishes early and often, I guess I need to change my policy.

[Maul]

And there you have it. If JellySlayer says use wishes early and often, I guess I need to change my policy.

Nobody is an absolute dispenser of the gospel truth. The way I see it, after you've already wished four times a fifth or a sixth wish isn't going to help you as much as the first four. In fact, it might not help at all since you've already wished for everything you could need... so why not save it for later, in case you hit a brick wall and are missing just one wish to be able to solve the problem? Or as I've said, as a safety buffer against corruption, for more SoCRs (though this is usually more of an issue in ultras)?

[gut]

I, as the absolute dispenser of truth, say this: use all wishes for SoCR, so you can use the shield of raw steel for as long as possible. it is the most overpowered item in the game. not even the TotRR is anything by comparison. that is all

[Maul]

I, as the absolute dispenser of truth, say this: use all wishes for SoCR, so you can use the shield of raw steel for as long as possible. it is the most overpowered item in the game. not even the TotRR is anything by comparison. that is all

What's so OP about the SoRS, again? As far as I know, it's a fine speedrun item, and... that's it.

(And there is no reason to wish for SoCRs before you actually need to use them. Let's not give bad or misleading advice to newbies.)

[Silfir]

Saving wishes is a bad idea, IMHO, if there are things that are worth wishing for at that point in time. Normally, when I decide to save a wish, I find that it ends up never getting used.

So do I, but that doesn't make saving a wish a bad idea. It's a contingency. I don't see a single problem with leaving the chain with five unused wishes in the pack. In one game I used a spare wish to djinni-strangle a werewolf king (Might've gotten some SoCR, not sure). Unused wishes are more valuable than a great many items; and since they come in the adamantium djinni ring and the eternium wand of wishing, often much sturdier. (Wishing for SoCR before you intend to read them is indeed not a very good idea.)

That's for regular endings - for ultra endings you want to save wishes for speed and possibly SoCR anyway. Even in a regular game, a wish for speed can turn any single boss fight into an absolute cakewalk.

That said, a good number of things are better than an unused wish in the pack, especially early in the game. My rule of thumb: If I have to stare at the inventory entry for WoWi or RoDS on the screen and think whether or not I might need anything in particular, I'm better off saving the wish altogether. If I think "I could really go for some 7LBs/red dragon scale mail/Acid Ball right now" almost instantly, that's what's gonna happen.

[SirTheta]

What's so OP about the SoRS, again? As far as I know, it's a fine speedrun item, and... that's it.+18 DV, +16 PV (incl. To bonus. you should have To over 20, it is not hard..), +8 To. It absolutely blows protector and any other shields out of the water and can take you "from getting slaughtered by fire drakes" to "slaughtering ACW" if all you have is a measly blessed 1h adamantium weapon. outside tower I don't consider it nearly as useful, but I can imagine situations where the huge PV boost comes in handy :)

edit: it is not nearly so useful outside tower because outside tower is not nearly so hard :) i of course neglect to mention =Fire which can free up some ring slots if you have something nice

[gut]

compare thest two shields:

large eternium shield (-1) [+11, +5] = total dv/pv of 16
shield of raw steel (+2) [+18, +12] +4 from To: = total dv/pv of 34
also, for a To:20 PC, it would prolly give +50percent HP's. On top of that,
=Fire =Cold -Pois. Wear this when crowning for a guaranteed 3rd
immunity. The SoRS is much much better than dual wielding eternium
tower shields, and it consumes only 1 item slot. Feel free to wear protector
in your other hand and use primarily missiles for offense :D

The only wish that can rival SoCR (for SoRS use) is a wish for an
ancient karmic wyrm (or 3), but some have died doing that.

[Maul]

compare thest two shields:

large eternium shield (-1) [+11, +5] = total dv/pv of 16
shield of raw steel (+2) [+18, +12] +4 from To: = total dv/pv of 34
also, for a To:20 PC, it would prolly give +50percent HP's. On top of that,
=Fire =Cold -Pois. Wear this when crowning for a guaranteed 3rd
immunity. The SoRS is much much better than dual wielding eternium
tower shields, and it consumes only 1 item slot. Feel free to wear protector
in your other hand and use primarily missiles for offense :D

The only wish that can rival SoCR (for SoRS use) is a wish for an
ancient karmic wyrm (or 3), but some have died doing that.

I don't see why you compared the SoRS to a large eternium shield. That's like comparing Executor to an adamantium battle axe.

PV becomes much less valuable in the late game, and the difference between the DV given by a tower eternium shield and the SoRS is, if you max your shield skill, 9. Let's, however, count the PV bonus as well - that's 12 PV. Alright, so the shield is quite a considerable improvement. At a point of the game where more DV and PV does little to prevent the most dangerous forms of death (i.e. at every point past ToEF, where corruption, death rays, serial critical hits that may punch through armor and various dumb mistakes claim the most victims), I'll pass up on the thing. Of course, if one is going for a regular ending one can't really go wrong with a SoRS and its corruption, either, but I'd never even consider this idea for an ultra. (I'd generally say that if you get a WoWi with 5 charges from the early midgame onwards, there's nothing except your own stupidity that can kill you anyway.)

[Silfir]

I don't use it because I don't like killing NPCs, so I'm not sure of the actual corruption rate - but if you're smoking SoCR by the wishloads to use it, you're probably using it too much. It's best in the Tower and probably pretty good in selected battles, but at any other point you probably don't need it. That is unless you're speedrunning or being gut, i.e. relying mostly on guaranteed items.

Incidentally, the large eternium shield is not the best mundane shield. That would be the tower eternium shield. DV beats PV on shields any time of day.

[gut]

ok, coppied the wrong one. (-1) [+13, +4] * 2 is still 34, which is worse than the SoRS.

> I don't see why you compared the SoRS

because many consider TOWER eternium shields wish worthy. It compares favorably to
protector as well, if that does it for you, but it isn't wishable, so quite rare. If you aren't
impressed by one shield being better than 2...
if shield skill = 11:
([+13, +4] * 2) + 22 = +48, +8
[+18, +12] (+4) +22 = +40, +16 (+HP's, -pois and immunities)

> PV becomes much less valuable in the late game

Not if you aren't scumming your PV to insane levels through other means.

> I'm not sure of the actual corruption rate

I made it to D:50 on a melee non-speedrun using it constantly. Granted, I
was HIGHLY corrupted, but I generated zero means of corruption removal
that game and still won.

[nipon621]

wear it while crowning for a guaranteed 3rd immunity.

This brings up an interesting question I have that isnt related to the thread but I don't feel it merits it's own thread. Theoretically, wouldn't the ideal crowning immunities be fire and cold? Acid and Lightning are obtainable (according to the GB monster list) by eating giant slugs and lightning lizards respectively. Admittedly, I have yet to come across more than a single corpse of either in a game, much less obtain the immunity from it. But is there a semi-viable way to get 3/4 intrinsic immunities?

[SirTheta]

=Fire and =Cold are a lot easier to get (from items or stacking resistance) than =Acid or =Elec. =Cold would be the worst crowning immunity in a normal game since you are guaranteed both the AMW and at some point the RCT if you so wish. Since immunity granting corpses aren't easy to come by (and are much harder without food pres) in normal (i.e. non scumming for them) play, the immunities can come in quite handy if you generate a, say, black dragon vault, or desire to do the BDC (and =Elec is nice for Air Temple even tho you will have elemental gauntlets). (I might consider =Elec the most desirable crowning immunity simply because there is no -Elec ring [to my knowledge] and the BDC are guaranteed whereas acid breathing monsters not so much)

[nipon621]

=Fire and =Cold are a lot easier to get (from items or stacking resistance) than =Acid or =Elec. =Cold would be the worst crowning immunity in a normal game since you are guaranteed both the AMW and at some point the RCT if you so wish. Since immunity granting corpses aren't easy to come by (and are much harder without food pres) in normal (i.e. non scumming for them) play, the immunities can come in quite handy if you generate a, say, black dragon vault, or desire to do the BDC (and =Elec is nice for Air Temple even tho you will have elemental gauntlets). (I might consider =Elec the most desirable crowning immunity simply because there is no -Elec ring [to my knowledge] and the BDC are guaranteed whereas acid breathing monsters not so much)

Thank you. I hadn't taken note that there isn't a -Elec equivalent to rings of fire resistance (etc). Of course there's rings of minor elemental mastery, but they're orders of magnitude harder to find. I am also pleased when I am crowned with electricity or acid immunity. Thanks for explaining the logic.

[Silfir]

Immunity to shock, acid and fire are all good. I personally consider acid immunity the most valuable since acid resistance isn't on the elemental gauntlets or the ring of the High Kings. You get one level from an ant corpse (though early) and you usually find some rings of acid resistance and that's it. More than once I lost acid resistance from a pool, forgot about it and ran into an acid vortex without any resistance at all.

[sorrow]

An interesting side discussion. Regarding the immunities, I would rank them: Acid, Elec, Fire, Ice.
About saving the wishes: I follow the logic of Silfir and - if I cannot come up with something to wish at current moment, I keep it.
Which nicely brings me to my game. I used three wishes so far: 7lb (got *four* pairs: uncursed 3/0 and 1/0, cursed 1/1 and 1/0), AoLS (and saved Khelly), tower eternium shields (four uncursed 13/4). I will wish for the spellbooks of Acid Ball once my Le goes up a little (I think that for the moment the spells I have are sufficient). I will pay Darkforge a visit, but will not attempt to get SoRS (though it is nice). By the way, do steel golems see invisible? Because I am quite sure they do (the GB says nothing about it). As for the quests, I am left with the last one from the dwarf. Now on to farming for morgia and looking for a blink dog; then daemon and the RoHK.

[grobblewobble]

Steel golems see invisible and are very good at shrugging bolt spells. Just to warn you. Ball spells will be a big help against them. Personally I would actually spend a wish on the lightning ball spell now because it will melt them like nothing else, but some might consider that a waste of a wish.

If not, I strongly advise to wish for the acid ball spell before DF. You don´t have to read your books to exhaustion immediately after wishing. You can also, say, read once, use the spell to make darkforge much safer, grab the crown of science for +9 learning, then drink all potions of boost learning and then finish reading the books. Blessing your books before reading helps too.

Regarding the SoRS, it's a very powerful item indeed, but sacrificing 6 wishes for it? Sorry gut, that's madness. :p

[anon123]

I don't use it because I don't like killing NPCs, so I'm not sure of the actual corruption rate

If you like taking your time and don't care about turn count like me, it's definitely not worth it. Undoubtedly a stellar item with fantastic bonuses, and I have no problem with killing Guth'Alak, but it's too corrupting for my taste.

About immunities. If you wish for rings of elemental mastery, you get =Fire =Cold =Elec on an item slot that's unlikely to have anything much better on it.

And to get the most from book reading: get your Learning up. Use blessed crystals of knowledge if you have some. Use starvation and/or sickness to get +6 from the Oracle if you can remove dooming from an altar. Drink all blessed potions of learning. Wear the crown of science and rings of mental stability if you have some, bless any potions of boost learning you might have, bless the books.

[Silfir]

You can already get the Ring of the High Kings and the elemental gauntlets; that's not counting corpses. Not a very good wish in my book.

[anon123]

You can already get the Ring of the High Kings and the elemental gauntlets

And they give +6 PV combined, but the rings grant three immunities and you can ask for more than one, which makes them pretty good as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I just thought I'd bring them up, since everyone was discussing immunity. Here in the forums they don't seem to get mentioned much, not even to say "the GB says this but they aren't worthwhile".

[Maul]

And they give +6 PV combined, but the rings grant three immunities and you can ask for more than one, which makes them pretty good as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, I just thought I'd bring them up, since everyone was discussing immunity. Here in the forums they don't seem to get mentioned much, not even to say "the GB says this but they aren't worthwhile".

Generally, my opinion is that immunities aren't very necessary for everyday use. If a vortex hits you and you are resistant, you'll survive from high HP and you'll take little damage if you stack two resistances. Intrinsic resistance+1-2 items (e.g. elemental gauntlets) together make elemental damage trivial.

[gut]

immunity desirability is ranked by quantity, not quality. Fire, Cold, Lit, Acid.

GoGS, AoLS, 7LB's. all fun, but you can't take them into the toughest part of the game, and can be smashed/exploded at any point. Keep your wishes stored in wand form and use them for SoCR as needed. You will gain corruption blessings this way. Here is a short list of blessings the shield will give you, that I didn't even list as part of the original SoRS package deal:

+8 PV, nice eh?
teleportitis, but only if you have tp control. if not, just remove it temporarily. it will come back later. this will also reduce your turn count DRASTICALLY, thus resulting in LESS corruption on many levels.
antanea to explore your environment
+6 DV via unholy aura. If you don't like angering shoppies, just remove it. 99% of the game is not played around shopkeepers though
bulging cranium (Le: +6, Wi: +4, Ap: -6, PV: -4, To: -3).
12 eyes Pe: +6
acid spit
regen
+6 DV thin and nimble
1/10 weight Not so great by itself, BUT now you get quickling tree

pair that SoRS with the boots of great speed for an ultimate quickling tank PC!

[Maul]

immunity desirability is ranked by quantity, not quality. Fire, Cold, Lit, Acid.

GoGS, AoLS, 7LB's. all fun, but you can't take them into the toughest part of the game, and can be smashed/exploded at any point. Keep your wishes stored in wand form and use them for SoCR as needed. You will gain corruption blessings this way. Here is a short list of blessings the shield will give you, that I didn't even list as part of the original SoRS package deal:

+8 PV, nice eh?
teleportitis, but only if you have tp control. if not, just remove it temporarily. it will come back later. this will also reduce your turn count DRASTICALLY, thus resulting in LESS corruption on many levels.
antanea to explore your environment
+6 DV via unholy aura. If you don't like angering shoppies, just remove it. 99% of the game is not played around shopkeepers though
bulging cranium (Le: +6, Wi: +4, Ap: -6, PV: -4, To: -3).
12 eyes Pe: +6
acid spit
regen
+6 DV thin and nimble
1/10 weight Not so great by itself, BUT now you get quickling tree

pair that SoRS with the boots of great speed for an ultimate quickling tank PC!


boots of great speed

nope.avi

Here are also a few other blessings that the SoRS will grant you:

Mana battery! Waste (n-1) remaining wishes as you try to wish for a SoCR to clean that mess up!
Poison hands! You pick up the heap of 97 uncursed potions of poison.
Stiffened muscles! Free 2 St and 4 PV! What could possibly go wrong?

Now, I've never completed a game with extensive use of corrupting artifacts, but I've experienced many times just how fast corruption piles up with them. So, Gut, how many ultras have you completed that involved using the SoRS from before the ToEF till the end?

[gut]

the 'speed boots' was a joke. honestly, if you just did the quickling tree... why would you need more speed?
figured that would be obvious, but oh well -_-

i don't do ultras as I don't like scumming for a wand of foo creation, and scumming for a scroll of whatever, and scumming for a boar skull, and scumming for an amulet of life saving, and scumming for a...

[nipon621]

Steel golems see invisible and are very good at shrugging bolt spells. Just to warn you. Ball spells will be a big help against them. Personally I would actually spend a wish on the lightning ball spell now because it will melt them like nothing else, but some might consider that a waste of a wish.

If not, I strongly advise to wish for the acid ball spell before DF. You don´t have to read your books to exhaustion immediately after wishing. You can also, say, read once, use the spell to make darkforge much safer, grab the crown of science for +9 learning, then drink all potions of boost learning and then finish reading the books. Blessing your books before reading helps too.

Regarding the SoRS, it's a very powerful item indeed, but sacrificing 6 wishes for it? Sorry gut, that's madness. :p

An interesting dilemma to be sure. If I had wishes to burn and my wizards DV/PV was in the tank I would certainly consider ball lightning just for DF... but I dont find it to be nearly as useful as some other spells over the course of the game (ie; acid ball).

Sorrow, from my own harrowing experience of raiding DF for my first time (done it several times since), I would strongly recommend not actually fighting those things if you can help it at all. Make liberal use of monster detection and magic mapping/blind teleport (depending on your willingness to use map spoilers). They definitely see invisible, can crit for about 100 Hp, and I have never successfully landed a bolt spell on them. The first time, I raided it at xp level 12 to have a chance at grabbing some DSM and came back later for the crown. It was kinda annoying but definitely safer. Had trouble enough taking them out at xp 18 with acid ball. At that point i wasn't in grave danger of dying, but I didnt have enough spell efficacy to make my PP last for more than a single kill (cuz I refused to let them surround me - spell economy be damned).

Do the morgia first

[grobblewobble]

Of course, morgia first.

The thing is, he doesn't have teleport control yet, so teleporting around the golems is not an option unless you wish for a blink dog first. In that case, I'd rather wish for ball lightning, kill the golems (with willpower >= 32 this will be very safe and easy, you never have to stay in melee range) and gain xp while doing it, then sip the pools in DF to gain teleport control.

Telerobbing DF without fighting is slightly risky in any case. If you're unlucky, your teleport to the up stairs on the way back could misfire if a golem blocks the stairs. No need for any such risk when you're swimming in wishes.

[sorrow]

Now, a quick update (I know the progress is slow - but I have very little time for playing).

While farming for morgia and pacifying the Big Room, one of the items dropped was amulet of teleport control (yay!). So, I hopped to the DF to find no decent armour (in fact, about 75% of the stuff was clothes). I also managed to find a spellbook of Lightning Ball and learnt it. In the mean time I grabbed the RoHK (funny, it always turns out that it is much easier than I expect). Anyway, I am now at level 16, with To, Dx and Wi all around 25. The plan for now is to hop to DF again, having Wi on 32 (with Nonnak's sword and amulet of Wi+3), to get exp and the Crown. I think I also have enough blessed stomafilias to sacrifice to remove dooming. The wish would then go for Acid Ball and learning it, while wearing CoS. And then - dive into CoC for more exp, before ToEF.

Side question about RoHK, theoretically: with 7lb I can outrun basically anything there - so this means I could just grab the ring and flee? I always killed the dude and never noticed if the ring is there all the time.

Other side question: does the Oracle always leave corpse? If so, +6 Le sounds tempting (I have means of death ray resistance, and some decent missiles). I think I have killed her in one of my games, but I cannot remember exactly.

[anon123]

Side question about RoHK, theoretically: with 7lb I can outrun basically anything there - so this means I could just grab the ring and flee? I always killed the dude and never noticed if the ring is there all the time.

If the skeletal king doesn't pick the ring up beforehand, it should be possible to lure him out, take it, outrun him and leave. Personally, I always kill him, and with Lightning Ball in your repertoire, it shouldn't be too hard for you to do the same. Anyway, whatever the choice, set Coward tactics and watch out for confusion, the most frequent cause of YASD in this level.


Other side question: does the Oracle always leave corpse? If so, +6 Le sounds tempting (I have means of death ray resistance, and some decent missiles). I think I have killed her in one of my games, but I cannot remember exactly.

Yes, she always leaves a corpse, although you usually won't get the full +6 if Le is higher than 20. That's why I suggested exploiting starvation. You can also bless it for a chance of extra PP and +1 Mana.

[nipon621]

Now, a quick update (I know the progress is slow - but I have very little time for playing).

While farming for morgia and pacifying the Big Room, one of the items dropped was amulet of teleport control (yay!). So, I hopped to the DF to find no decent armour (in fact, about 75% of the stuff was clothes). I also managed to find a spellbook of Lightning Ball and learnt it. In the mean time I grabbed the RoHK (funny, it always turns out that it is much easier than I expect). Anyway, I am now at level 16, with To, Dx and Wi all around 25. The plan for now is to hop to DF again, having Wi on 32 (with Nonnak's sword and amulet of Wi+3), to get exp and the Crown. I think I also have enough blessed stomafilias to sacrifice to remove dooming. The wish would then go for Acid Ball and learning it, while wearing CoS. And then - dive into CoC for more exp, before ToEF.

Side question about RoHK, theoretically: with 7lb I can outrun basically anything there - so this means I could just grab the ring and flee? I always killed the dude and never noticed if the ring is there all the time.

Other side question: does the Oracle always leave corpse? If so, +6 Le sounds tempting (I have means of death ray resistance, and some decent missiles). I think I have killed her in one of my games, but I cannot remember exactly.

Yes, I just grabbed the RotHC without killing the skeleton king last night. Also, as gobble pointed out, I forgot you didnt have TC. Thank you for grabbing that before diving into the DF... depending on the situation, DF can be suicide without TC. Its normal to find almost all clothes, but about 4/5 games I find a set of DSM as well. I've also found vigilant clothes of traveling. I also check the weapon cache to see if any artifacts were generated (and obviously check for better weapons than what I am using).

Glad you found that amulet. Keep an eye out for blink dogs (almost mistyped it at blink gods... what a terrifying prospect that would be!) so you can free that ammy slot.

If you're planning on removing dooming from the crown, it's not possible. Just uncurse the thing and take it off.

[sorrow]

Keep an eye out for blink dogs (almost mistyped it at blink gods... what a terrifying prospect that would be!)

Blink gods. Now that sounds like an idea for a monster in ADOM 1.3 ;) They should be like quicklings (but more powerful), very rare (maybe only in DH:2 or below CoC:40, or as artefact guardians), lawful, capable of summoning more of themselves, impossible to sacrifice, probably immune to elemental attacks, and capable of teleporting the PC to the place where he is surrounded by them or other monsters. The corpse should curse, doom and grant on-demand teleportation.


If you're planning on removing dooming from the crown, it's not possible. Just uncurse the thing and take it off.

Ah, ok. I always thought that the dooming from anythink makes one doomed, even if the thing is taken off (it would make more sense to me that way). Anyways, more progress tomorrow. I need sleep.

[nipon621]

Blink gods. Now that sounds like an idea for a monster in ADOM 1.3 ;) They should be like quicklings (but more powerful), very rare (maybe only in DH:2 or below CoC:40, or as artefact guardians), lawful, capable of summoning more of themselves, impossible to sacrifice, probably immune to elemental attacks, and capable of teleporting the PC to the place where he is surrounded by them or other monsters. The corpse should curse, doom and grant on-demand teleportation.



Ah, ok. I always thought that the dooming from anythink makes one doomed, even if the thing is taken off (it would make more sense to me that way). Anyways, more progress tomorrow. I need sleep.

Oh God, what have I done? Although, on demand teleport (similar to a class/racial ability) might make it worth the terror. It would also give another reason to be lawful... I have yet to feel compelled to be anything other than neutral. Chaotics could potentially be sacrificed while worshiping, lawfuls potentially loose out on the tremendous bonus available from pickpocketing... I'm not experienced with them so I dont know if it's always a chaotic act to use that skill or not.

Yeah, it's an item granted intrinsic, just like a ring of fire resistance or the ancient mummy wrapping. You take it off, you loose the resistances/intrinsics. It's tied to the item, not the PC.

[anon123]

I have yet to feel compelled to be anything other than neutral. Chaotics could potentially be sacrificed while worshiping, lawfuls potentially loose out on the tremendous bonus available from pickpocketing... I'm not experienced with them so I dont know if it's always a chaotic act to use that skill or not.

It is, and it's possible to go from N- to NC to C by pickpocketing, although it takes a lot of uses for that to happen.

I prefer chaotic alignment, simply because it lets you get away with the heinous acts that I'd never do in real life, but that ADOM abstracts enough to make only advantageous. Steal from every monster you see, dig all graves and murder NPCs that have outlived their usefulness, using blindness, paralysis and stunning if you have to. The risk of being sacrificed is always present, but it can be minimized by using doors and invisibility, as well as being quick with your altar-related business.

[prime]

It is, and it's possible to go from N- to NC to C by pickpocketing, although it takes a lot of uses for that to happen.

I prefer chaotic alignment, simply because it lets you get away with the heinous acts that I'd never do in real life, but that ADOM abstracts enough to make only advantageous. Steal from every monster you see, dig all graves and murder NPCs that have outlived their usefulness, using blindness, paralysis and stunning if you have to. The risk of being sacrificed is always present, but it can be minimized by using doors and invisibility, as well as being quick with your altar-related business.
Funnily enough, that's why I prefer lawful. If you're N=, it doesn't take very many undead corpses or graves dug to turn you chaotic, but as L+ you can rack up enough alignment to get away with all sorts of horrible atrocities without drifting, and still receive much less corruption than a chaotic.

And being L lets you sacrifice almost anything, which both helps you get your piety up and can save your life. I think as a lawful I've actually sacrificed shopkeepers before.

But early on, neutral is nice so you don't get the stupid axe from the mystic. IMO pickpocketing is useless unless you really really need an AoLS so that's not a concern for me.

[Carter]

suprised noone has suggested dumping a couple of wishes into Willpower, getting to the 64 Willpower barrier makes a big difference to your ball spells too.

[Silfir]

... Anything beyond 32 Willpower is fairly nonconsequential if you ask me. Worth a wish? I don't think a wish gives even ten points.

[SirTheta]

and it isn't even that hard to get Willpower to 48 with appropriate equipment and a little bit of scumming if you're that desperate...64 is way overkill though.

[anon123]

How much Wi do you get by wishing for some? In average, would it be more efficient to do that twice, or just ask for potions of willpower (+8 if you bless all of them)?

[sorrow]

GB says as much as Wi+7 is possible with one wish, but I have not tested that.

[Carter]

GB says as much as Wi+7 is possible with one wish, but I have not tested that.

Averages 5 which is higher than potions.

getting 48 isn't that easy, especially without the water orb for the +10 boost. imho it makes a big difference on the elemental temples and on d50 where you can't regen PP so easily. More bang for your buck. I think +10 Wi is worth two wishes. But thats just me, if you get preserver probably less so.

[SirTheta]

Nonnak + Water Orb + Necklace of Perseverance (fairly common item) is a +18 boost, most of it indestructible and there for most of the game (or you could just starvation scum up another 2-3 Wi to obviate the need for necklace [since 31 Wi is fairly possible with sickness training]). Not sure why you wouldn't have the water orb except for D50, unless you were doing some sort of speed run.

[JellySlayer]

Averages 5 which is higher than potions.

getting 48 isn't that easy, especially without the water orb for the +10 boost. imho it makes a big difference on the elemental temples and on d50 where you can't regen PP so easily. More bang for your buck. I think +10 Wi is worth two wishes. But thats just me, if you get preserver probably less so.

On D:50 (and well before), you should be HPcasting every turn. PP is basically an irrelevant attribute after the ToEF because you have enough HP not to care.

[Carter]

On D:50 (and well before), you should be HPcasting every turn. PP is basically an irrelevant attribute after the ToEF because you have enough HP not to care.

nonetheless, at Level 50, things like Tower Eternium etc, are very easy to find. Will doesn't get less useful as the game goes on, but wishes for things like Tower Eternium shields etc do.

HP casting is fine, but being able to hit 4 balors at once instead of 2 to me, is a big advantage.

[JellySlayer]

nonetheless, at Level 50, things like Tower Eternium etc, are very easy to find. Will doesn't get less useful as the game goes on, but wishes for things like Tower Eternium shields etc do.

HP casting is fine, but being able to hit 4 balors at once instead of 2 to me, is a big advantage.

Sure, but who cares about what happens to you at level 50? That's the easiest part of the game. Balors don't scare me; ghuls, ogre-magi, spider factories: Those are the things that scare me, because these things can actually kill me. Level 1-18 is where the game is won or lost. The game is already won long before you set foot into D:50.

[nipon621]

One of my mages enjoys a boost willpower drinking binge now and then, and a radius 4 acid ball is rather nice for clearing rooms, but it gets to a point where youre paranoid about killing things you didnt intend to kill and could not see... cats in the next room for instance.

So basically, super high willpower has its drawbacks too. It can certainly be nice, but I wouldn't make a point of making it a major priority other than to get 32 - try to find an amulet that boosts it. Pretty easy fix when combined with some other stuff (ie; orb of elemental water)

[anon123]

One of my mages enjoys a boost willpower drinking binge now and then, and a radius 4 acid ball is rather nice for clearing rooms, but it gets to a point where youre paranoid about killing things you didnt intend to kill and could not see... cats in the next room for instance.

As you play ADOM, chances of accidentally killing a cat get close to 1. This happens twice as fast if you already have the RotMC. It has nice bonuses, but I don't want to play the game with fear I could bolt a cat out of LOS and have the ring blow up, so I don't bother with it anymore. At least the cat lord gives nice xp :)

I'm sorry for hijacking the thread, but I have a quick question for those who clear D: 50 (wand of destruction fans begone): have you noticed more artifact drops there? I've always generated an artifact or two after clearing the level. But it could be sheer coincidence, given it has tons of monsters and the highest DL in the game, and I'm not a very good player so I haven't got to D: 50 too often in the first place :rolleyes:

[sorrow]

I am not a good statistical sample, as I have not cleared D:50 at all ;) The three times I was there so far (once killed by Fisty, once turned into purplish 'j' because of background corruption and once killed I think by growing hooves just when I was about to drink my blessed PoUH) no artifacts were generated. Might be, that the odds increase once the gate is closed, Fisty is dead, or just random drop.

Returning to my topic :) Assume that I wished for emperor moloch. If I recall correctly, the shitload of greater molochs will take forever to kill? Approximately, what efficiency in Magic Missile, Acid Bolt or Acid Ball should I have to *deal* them any damage, nevermind killing them easily? No phase daggers so far, besides - I play as wizard and would like to blast them away with magick.
Another easy way of getting experience would be AKWs. How many of them appear? They are also tough, but do not see invisible (right?), so should be easier, as I can stand between them (with ring of invis.) and just cast Acid Ball / whatever till they drop dead. Also, wouldn't it be better than molochs also due to corpse effects? The reason I am asking is that I had 3 or 4 wishes so far since gamma 16 (? or similar) and at most one in a game - so it never crossed my mind to wish for something else than 7LB / AoLS.
And another question: how does the fact of being at level around 45 before ToEF and (especially) Earth Temple affects these locations? I mean, the monsters are generated stronger - but how much stronger? Stone Beast has enough HP already... ;)

[anon123]

Another easy way of getting experience would be AKWs. How many of them appear? They are also tough, but do not see invisible (right?), so should be easier, as I can stand between them (with ring of invis.) and just cast Acid Ball / whatever till they drop dead. Also, wouldn't it be better than molochs also due to corpse effects?

Only one of them will appear, even if you ask for many. They don't see invisible and are immune to all elements, but Magic Missile or Petrification (if you have it) will do the trick. Moloch corpses increase To while reducing Dx; AKW corpses refill your PP, have a chance of +1 Ma as all spellcasters, as well as the same effect as other karmic beings - but they're very rare, at least without Food Preservation.

I wrote a nice checklist of stuff you can do to maximize the gains from an AKW, read it here: http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_karmic_wyrm#Strategy

A PC complying with all those requirements can get over 10 million xp. A non-obsessed player can reasonably expect to get from 7 to 8 million xps from each wyrm. That is, until you kill too many and the game beings halving the experience received.

The emperor moloch wish is much more efficient experience-wise, since you get a few dozen greater molochs, and each one of them gives great experience. I never did it in a normal game, wouldn't want to be cornered by them, but I'm guessing a lot of magic missiles or acid balls would be required.


And another question: how does the fact of being at level around 45 before ToEF and (especially) Earth Temple affects these locations? I mean, the monsters are generated stronger - but how much stronger? Stone Beast has enough HP already... ;)

Player level affects monsters' experience as well? I thought only danger level, dooming and KPL decided that. Your level does affect which monsters are generated though.

[JellySlayer]

Returning to my topic :) Assume that I wished for emperor moloch. If I recall correctly, the shitload of greater molochs will take forever to kill? Approximately, what efficiency in Magic Missile, Acid Bolt or Acid Ball should I have to *deal* them any damage, nevermind killing them easily? No phase daggers so far, besides - I play as wizard and would like to blast them away with magick.

Magic is strongly recommended. There is considerable risk doing this in melee, because there are just too damn many of them. I don't believe that they're particularly good at shrugging bolts, so pretty much every magic missile should connect. Throw on any willpower or mana boosting items you have. My personal recommendation would be to build an ice bridge into the middle of the river in the barbarian glade, then freeze it away so they can't follow. It's wide enough that you should be able to build a bit of a connected bridge to move around a little. Use farsight for effective targeting. As for damage... it will take awhile to clear them all. A single GM should probably drop in (guessing a bit here) maybe 10 consecutive bolts. Have prayers ready for extra PP or HPcast a lot and use healing items. Acid ball will work on GMs too, but you'll want at least range 2 because you don't want them next to you.

The level scaling of monsters for being at high level isn't too bad. It isn't uniformly applied, and the effect isn't that severe. I've fought some of the bosses at quite high level and haven't really noticed it. The biggest offender is probably Keethrax, actually, simply because you usually fight him at such low level that if you decide to fight him at level 50, it is a bit surprising to find that he has 300+ HP and 150 speed. He isn't, of course, actually a threat to a level 50 PC... he just won't drop in 1 hit like you'd expect.

[sorrow]

Only one of them will appear, even if you ask for many.

I though it would be so. It would simply be too abusable (even more abusable than standing in an ice island at Old Barb's ;)).


I wrote a nice checklist of stuff you can do to maximize the gains from an AKW, read it here: http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_karmic_wyrm#Strategy

Yup, I read that. It would be nice if both wiki and GB were merged.


The emperor moloch wish is much more efficient experience-wise, since you get a few dozen greater molochs, and each one of them gives great experience. I never did it in a normal game, wouldn't want to be cornered by them, but I'm guessing a lot of magic missiles or acid balls would be required.

Well, I will probably try it, nothing better comes to my mind - and probably I would not need anything better than xp anyway. I plan to start playing now and see how far I go.

[anon123]

The level scaling of monsters for being at high level isn't too bad. It isn't uniformly applied, and the effect isn't that severe. I've fought some of the bosses at quite high level and haven't really noticed it. The biggest offender is probably Keethrax, actually, simply because you usually fight him at such low level that if you decide to fight him at level 50, it is a bit surprising to find that he has 300+ HP and 150 speed. He isn't, of course, actually a threat to a level 50 PC... he just won't drop in 1 hit like you'd expect.

So PC level affects the experience at which monsters are randomly generated? I thought Keethrax, monsters that "adjust in power" and of course the SMC were just special cases.


I though it would be so. It would simply be too abusable (even more abusable than standing in an ice island at Old Barb's ;)).

I once tried to abuse overflow piety in the glade using the ice bridge method, forgetting greater daemons can still happily breathe fire across the water... almost didn't make it out of there.

Take care!

[SirTheta]

Player level affects monsters' experience as well? I thought only danger level, dooming and KPL decided that. Your level does affect which monsters are generated though.afaik player level does affect monster experience, at least wrt to uniques, such as the orb guardians (although they also adjust in power [silently?]) so that may have something to do with it.


edit: although, ASB is easily the easiest orb guardian even without PV by-passing attacks. he normally can't touch you by that point and it doesn't take /that/ long to kill him.

[sorrow]

A quick observation: seems that in 1.2.0p3 Shyssiryxius sees in the dark. Went to her cave, cast Darkness around, trying pickup and... "Don't you dare pick this up, mortal!". Can anyone confirm (or was I doing something wrong ;))?

[JellySlayer]

A quick observation: seems that in 1.2.0p3 Shyssiryxius sees in the dark. Went to her cave, cast Darkness around, trying pickup and... "Don't you dare pick this up, mortal!". Can anyone confirm (or was I doing something wrong ;))?

This always happens. She just won't attack you in the dark (she'll try, but she can't find you).

[anon123]

Just never stand in the edge of a darkened area, because she will see you, and you will die horribly.

[sorrow]

A question arrived at me while I was playing: is it possible to have a tension room of ki-rins? I recall meeting two over the course of 8 years (the first one was, obviously, the last thing I saw that game). Another question, related, would be: are there monsters that will never appear in tension rooms (aside from uniques, that is)? As for these questions, by tension rooms I also mean threat rooms and vaults.

A quick update of my game (that started this thread), if anyone is interested. I am on D:35 right now. I still have two wishes left on the wand. Last time I was doing dwarf quests. Since then I visited the Water Temple and, after some hesitation, I went to the Tower. The Wyrm was actually a piece of cake (a tough one, but still - I used two PoEH when it hit me with the bolts), it was standing at the opposite end of the long corridor and just blasting me with bolts. It did not even try to confuse me. Then I dived into CoC for what I thought would be a final dive - around Casino I realised I left the Water Orb in Dwarftown, so I had to go back (through DF). Casino itself generated zero artifacts, but a lot of spellbooks (and dragon scale mails) and enough money to get crowned (N= with a Staff). D:33 featured a vault of stone/iron golems with eternium golem on top of that (I ran out of PP so I left him, but plan to come back). D:34 has a vault of unded (do higher Liches appear there as well?) and a diamond golem. D:35 has a peaceful big cat (yay!), but before that there is a tension room of black slayers. This is where I stopped. I had gotten two corruptions: lost a lot of weight and then mana battery. As soon as the other appeared, I read SoCR and now I am clean again. Hopefully, poison hands will not show up. Next update will either be YAFVP or YASD, but I will ask questions here (if I have any).

[SirTheta]

It is possible to get single ki-rins in mixed tension rooms and threat rooms of ki-rins (someone in IRC talked about this, but can't remember who--crappy memory). as far as I am aware, all non-unique monsters are possible in mixed tension rooms & threat rooms [probable exceptions: ancient karmic wyrm, banshee (these are supposedly unique, but you can wish for them, so they aren't technically, right?)]. Vaults are a bit special, not usually being mixed at higher DL, but they can contain some interesting monsters too [eternium golem!].

[Carter]

It is possible to get single ki-rins in mixed tension rooms and threat rooms of ki-rins (someone in IRC talked about this, but can't remember who--crappy memory). as far as I am aware, all non-unique monsters are possible in mixed tension rooms & threat rooms [probable exceptions: ancient karmic wyrm, banshee (these are supposedly unique, but you can wish for them, so they aren't technically, right?)]. Vaults are a bit special, not usually being mixed at higher DL, but they can contain some interesting monsters too [eternium golem!].

Ki-rins definately possible.

Worst i've had was a tension room of greater molochs.. in the mana temple.

[anon123]

+3 on the possibility of a ki-rin threat room. Once had one in the level with the shortcut to Darkforge. But I'm guessing they're as rare as the monsters themselves.

DH provides some interesting tension and threat rooms. I've had molochs (which provided nice corpses and a few suits of hulking armor after a Magic Missile marathon) and titans (they don't see in darkness, but eternium quarrels HURT) of both kinds, as well as chaos knights (lots of eternium gear :D).

Mixed vaults also tend to spawn monsters of very high DL compared to the area they're in. For example, a werewolf lord in PC:6.

:(

[SirTheta]

Those are great, though! Because it's a threat room of greater molochs [not a tension room], you won't aggro all of them at once and you can lure them out and dispatch them one by one (eliminating chance of hulking armor death in 1.1.1) for the easiest mess-ton of exp you'll ever find (and a potentially nice st/to boost). I once had a _huge_ one of those (something absurd like 39 of them, if my flg (http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/sirtheta/echo.flg) is to be believed).

[sorrow]

1767
I have just been covered with acidic fluids while fighting acid vortex in the dark. This was in a long corridor D:45, so no door. Anyone care to reproduce? I thought vortices are unable to explode in the dark - it seems they are just unable to fight back. 1.2.0p3.

[anon123]

I haven't had a vortex explode in the dark so far in prerelease 3. Was it a cavernous level by any chance?

I will say that vortices could really be made more dangerous by letting them see in the dark.

[JellySlayer]

I have just been covered with acidic fluids while fighting acid vortex in the dark. This was in a long corridor D:45, so no door. Anyone care to reproduce? I thought vortices are unable to explode in the dark - it seems they are just unable to fight back. 1.2.0p3.

Were you in a narrow corridor at the time? In a situation like this where a monster is in a narrow corridor and then pinned:



#######
..BV@..
#######


monsters will still be able to find/attack you even under darkness.

[sorrow]

Were you in a narrow corridor at the time? In a situation like this where a monster is in a narrow corridor and then pinned:



#######
..BV@..
#######


monsters will still be able to find/attack you even under darkness.

Yes, narrow corridor is correct. I saw only the vortex entering the corridor, I think there was nothing else there. However, something might have showed up while I was bashing the vortex - which probably solves my problem.
@anon123 - nope, it was D:45. It seems that there were no cavernous levels all the way to D:47. Some did have weirdly shaped rooms, but no big caves.

Now, a quick question: I am at level 27 and I am slowly reaching Mana Temple. There is a greater titan on the way and I can seem to get rid of it (those damn quarrels have about the same range as my spells and they hit harder). I am a little afraid of being too low level for tackling the temple. Is venturing to kill Barney and level up on the way reasonable? Though I am afraid that nasties there will simply smash me - considering I have problems with the titan... Any advice?

[SirTheta]

Titans/greater titans are far more nasty [w/o darkness] than any other monster in a [non-ultra] game, imo. Use darkness to easily kill them, though.

[JellySlayer]

Now, a quick question: I am at level 27 and I am slowly reaching Mana Temple. There is a greater titan on the way and I can seem to get rid of it (those damn quarrels have about the same range as my spells and they hit harder). I am a little afraid of being too low level for tackling the temple. Is venturing to kill Barney and level up on the way reasonable? Though I am afraid that nasties there will simply smash me - considering I have problems with the titan... Any advice?

I'd suggest avoiding the dragon caves entirely. If you need xps, the ancient karmic wyrm at the entrance to the dragon caves doesn't see invisible and can be killed with magic missiles for a bundle. Use slow monster on yourself just before you kill him for best results (and cast invis on him if you're in 1.1.1). Level 27-30 is not unreasonable for Mana Temple for a non-ultra. Pretty much all of the levels from 35-50 will come from killing the balors on D:50 if you choose to do so.

[sorrow]

Thanks for the suggestions. I managed to close the gate (yay!). I will post a YA(F)VP tomorrow - now it is time for a well deserved drink.