Guidebook work

[Andy Williams]

I have some time this summer to devote to bringing the Guidebook up to date with the current view of the game. I've already begun by going through the undocumented thread. You can help me out by posting inaccuracies, things that should be added, etc.

Here's one to get the ball rolling: How do multiple torches work? Extend LOS how? Additive? Two twice as far as one? Three 3X one?

[gut]

I am so happy about this!

[Covenant]

The main addition that springs to my mind is the use of PoCC on Chaos beings to cause damage.

[Andy Williams]

It's in the Potions Appendix E - unless you think it should be emphasized elsewhere.

[Andy Williams]

I've read that the figures for training with Garth (especially to very high stats) are grossly inaccurate. Anyone confirm/deny?

[Soirana]

Here's one to get the ball rolling: How do multiple torches work? Extend LOS how? Additive? Two twice as far as one? Three 3X one?

I thought you still have game installed...

1. start wizard...
2. go to dungeon...
3. hit H
4. light first torch...
5. light second...
6. light third...

or you started to accept code dives into guidebook [well, i guess dungeon danger levels always were in...]

[Andy Williams]

No code dives. I have the game installed (barely) but do not have time to test.
This community knows more than I about the game now in any case.

[Soirana]

you mean section 0.13.15 does not contain any code dived info?

overall if you are not checking things yourself than in my opinion you might leave guidebook as it is...

[Andy Williams]

you mean section 0.13.15 does not contain any code dived info?

overall if you are not checking things yourself than in my opinion you might leave guidebook as it is...

All derived by in game experimentation as far as I know. The only code dived info in the GB AFAIK is the weight of some items that are inconsequential. They were incorporated before TB's ban; I saw no reason to remove them since they do not affect gameplay and "the beans had been spilled".

[Conundrum]

I've read that the figures for training with Garth (especially to very high stats) are grossly inaccurate. Anyone confirm/deny?

I haven't tried training very high (beyond 30) with Garth, but unless the prices listed are too high, they seem fine below that.

[Soirana]

i have hard times to believe danger levels of all levels were non dived... Skipping whole term, how one would detect one...
Either by item generation or monster generation.... well, that brings out question how mobs/item danger levels were gained...
As far as i know there is no in game method to detect any of these...

Moving back to topic - As 90%+ of my investigations involve either AdomBot or another type of savefile manipulation it would probably be best if you ignore all mine posts about game features in terms of *high standart* guidebook updates...

[Andy Williams]

i have hard times to believe danger levels of all levels were non dived... Skipping whole term, how one would detect one...
Either by item generation or monster generation.... well, that brings out question how mobs/item danger levels were gained...
As far as i know there is no in game method to detect any of these...

Moving back to topic - As 90%+ of my investigations involve either AdomBot or another type of savefile manipulation it would probably be best if you ignore all mine posts about game features in terms of *high standart* guidebook updates...

I'm not exactly sure how ADOMBot works, other than running the Linux version under Windows. Most of the info in the GB was derived from savescumming. Repeat a scenario 1000 times or more, either by hand (ouch!, I did most of that myself ten years ago) or automation, and try to draw a statistically valid conclusion. It helped that we had some experts in statistics working with us at the time.

As far as specifics go, danger levels as an example, I don't remember. It may have been observation of items generated on the level, over many, many trials.

[Soirana]

As far as specifics go, danger levels as an example, I don't remember. It may have been observation of items generated on the level, over many, many trials.

AdomBot is basically memmory hack. Unluckily it does not do all work so few times i have done some manipulations more manually.
you should remmeber that Adombot was forbidden thinbg at some point, before *someone* revived it on these boards...

I told you above - how do you get item danger levels when?

Well, i would like to see players to do some work, but since most of new generation reads IGB anyway...

[Conundrum]

Danger levels could have be calculated from a baseline such as ID:1 and then increased one by one with Scrolls of Danger, and then viewing which items/monsters would appear there. From there you would have a point of reference for other dungeon levels to calculate their DL.

[Soirana]

To Conan - none of scrolls increase danger level by one [or actually non randomosed amount].

I also searched usenet archives for good in past. Have not seen such thing... Keep in mind danger level listings appeared in times code diving was not so uncommon thing....

[mike]

Well, steel man would be an endless case study in DL: 1 items. Also, since CoC has perfectly linear DL, that zone could have been a starting point for item/monster DLs. Not that I'm saying this is what happened. =P

[JellySlayer]

Here's a few things that I've noted that might be worth adding:

In section 0.2.2 under the discussion of alignment, I think it would be worth mentioning that killing certain types of monsters have substantial effects on the PC's alignment. In particular, killing blink dogs and especially white unicorns is quite chaotic, even if the monsters are hostile. Killing certain chaotic beasts draws the PCs alignment towards lawful--I don't have a complete list, but it can be easily checked with the Law skill, but notably most dragons, daemons, and grues, as well as some giants (fire/frost giants for sure), steel golems, most chaos monsters, etc. I believe this works all the way up to level 50, although it may be that as you get higher in level, you need stronger monsters to change your alignment--haven't checked that part.

Your god will cure sickness (and possibly other conditions--not poison or blindness) when you sacrifice any amount on an altar, if your piety is respectably good (very close for sure). The same effect can be experienced by lawfuls using whips, on some occasions.

The disarm traps skill seems to give small amounts of experience under successful application--this may be the only way to gain experience without killing anything.

In 0.6.1, being Strained or Strained! definitely does not abuse dexterity, although it does increase food consumption. Being Overburdened does abuse dexterity quite severely, however. Although it isn't terribly convenient, spending large amounts of time while blind seems to train perception.

Poison hands corruption does not prevent the PC from 'U'sing herbs such as spenseweed, or doing alchemy.

In 0.14.6, I believe that at least the Candle starsign has been quantified explicitly. My memory is that it worked out to 1 HP every 8 turns, but I'm sure someone else can confirm. It is considerably better than the maxed out healing skill.

In, 0.14.9, I think the values quoted for seven league boots are incorrect. Blessed seven league boots reduce base walking speed from 1000 to 500, uncursed from 1000 to 750. I think cursed are 1500. The effect is a bit more complicated with other modifiers in place: long stride + 7lb reduces movement speed to 487, for example.

[boris_pankov@inbox.ru]

Jellyslayer, opening and closing locks should also give experiencen, no?

[Soirana]

Well, steel man would be an endless case study in DL: 1 items. Also, since CoC has perfectly linear DL, that zone could have been a starting point for item/monster DLs. Not that I'm saying this is what happened. =P

From guidebook:


31 7 Minotaur Maze 6


31 stands for danger level...

there is no single item having 31,32 or 33 DL...
To my best spoilly and divy knowledge mob generation is affected by char level and some other conditions....
How this info was obtained in a clean way?

[Maul]

How this info was obtained in a clean way?

Obviously it wasn't.



To my best spoilly and divy knowledge mob generation is affected by char level and some other conditions....

Obvious proof for that is berserker lords and rust monsters being generated on D:1 eventually.

[Laukku]

Obvious proof for that is berserker lords and rust monsters being generated on D:1 eventually.

I met a moloch once on D:2 and a doppelganger king on D:1.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I think the Guidebook doesn't mention explicitly that Jharod cures sickness. This is quite useful IMHO, sometimes I have made all the way from CoC:2 or so to VD because I had no means of curing sickness.

Also, the SMC blanket always seems to be in one of the farthest squares from the stairs in the x-axis (not necessarily in the y-axis), and the "paces" specified in the scroll seem to be roughly 1 square = 2 paces (although I don't exactly know the way in which the path is calculated: the 1 square = 2 paces equivalence seems to always give a pretty good approximation to the shortest path but it seems to be off by around +/- 5% most of the time).

Also, I'm pretty sure from playing lots of wizards that Le is easier to train by reading books when it's already decently high (If I roll a wizard with 17 or 18 Le, I typically read my books in Terinyo and Le will go up pretty soon, in the first dungeon I enter. However, if I roll a wizard with 11 or 12 Le, not only I may have problems reading the books, but also Le will not go up). I suspect that the Le training that you get is proportional to the number of castings you get from reading. So if you already have good Le and therefore get decent castings, you train Le more.

[gut]

I am currently going through the GB with a fine-toothed comb,
and will post hordes in a day or so.

I re-downloaded the GB from the official site just now, and still
can't find the potion of cure corruption damage info in Appendix E.
Am I blind?

[Sami]

I made some tests a while ago about how often herb generations occur (level 50 wizard in UD:1).
Total of 7889 generations were made (pasting a lot of wait + eat commands in sage and parsing debug log afterwards).

I'm not sure if it's exponentially distributed or not. It looks quite a lot like exponential function and the best correlating function that I could find was exponential function, except that generations in < 5 turns seems to have way too small probability for it to be an exponential (if it were exponential function, 1 turn generations should be most common, 2 turns second most common and so on).
The lowest number of turns between generations were 1 (occured on consecutive turns) and it happened only 35 times. The highest 5 were 1301, 1276, 1049, 1011 and 999 turns so there doesn't seem to be upper limit.

The average number of turns between 2 generations were 134 turns and median was 92 turns (half of the generations occured in less or equal than 92 turns and half in more or equal than 92 turns).

If someone is interested in looking the data collected, it can be found here: http://www.students.tut.fi/~maki36/adom/herbgenerations.txt
There are only numbers in the file and every number means how many turns it took for next generation to occur.

[Soirana]

are these in order of happening?

[Sami]

are these in order of happening?

It was made in 5 games but those are in order where the generations occured within games.
First 75 numbers are from first game, next 799 from second game, next 1354 from third game, next 3357 from fourth game and last 2304 from the fifth game.

[Soirana]

I
I re-downloaded the GB from the official site just now, and still
can't find the potion of cure corruption damage info in Appendix E.
Am I blind?

http://www.adomgb.info/adomgb-app-E.html

does list only damage although...

[meh]

One thing that confused me in the guidebook when I first played the game was the Darkforge section. It says that you should gain at least five levels killing the initial golems and this clearly isn't the case (unless you go there really early).

[vogonpoet]

Indeed. I manage to go there early enough to gain 2 levels sometimes, but 5? No.

[meh]

I made some tests a while ago about how often herb generations occur (level 50 wizard in UD:1).
Total of 7889 generations were made (pasting a lot of wait + eat commands in sage and parsing debug log afterwards).

I'm not sure if it's exponentially distributed or not. It looks quite a lot like exponential function and the best correlating function that I could find was exponential function, except that generations in < 5 turns seems to have way too small probability for it to be an exponential (if it were exponential function, 1 turn generations should be most common, 2 turns second most common and so on).
The lowest number of turns between generations were 1 (occured on consecutive turns) and it happened only 35 times. The highest 5 were 1301, 1276, 1049, 1011 and 999 turns so there doesn't seem to be upper limit.

The average number of turns between 2 generations were 134 turns and median was 92 turns (half of the generations occured in less or equal than 92 turns and half in more or equal than 92 turns).

If someone is interested in looking the data collected, it can be found here: http://www.students.tut.fi/~maki36/adom/herbgenerations.txt
There are only numbers in the file and every number means how many turns it took for next generation to occur.

I made a graph of the data and it does seem like a geometric distribution (the discrete equivalent to exponential) is the best fit, with p=1/135. The low values at the start can be explained by random variance.

[gut]

>> I re-downloaded the GB from the official site just now, and still

Well, silly me. I downloaded the compiled version straight to my
HD. As it turns out, the one on the web is more up-to-date. Oh well,
I suppose I'll have to read through it on-line. Thanks soirana.


EDIT: and boy it's big.


I started out typing out random thoughts, but they were too scattered
to do any good. I went back and organized them in order of appearance
in the GB. Hope that helps, but there is still a bit of out-of-order
stuff I just threw in at the end : )


0.1.1 General characteristics
Races, classes and their combination

To my knowledge, it is a recent discovery that bard skill number is
incorrect. From Grey's bard guide:

"The manual states that they get more skills than other classes ? this is
lies! My testing indicates that bards normally get between 4 and 11
non-guaranteed skills, with 7 being the average"

Maybe this is kinda small, but it is largely unknown.


> A PC that trains a given skill due to both race and class will be especially
> proficient with that skill.

This info is highly suspect in ADOM 1.1.1.
--------------

--------------
0.1.3 Special considerations
> Drakelings -

No mention of acid spit?
This is a pretty important fact, as it gives a high powered way for
any class to deal with tough monsters in the early game, such as
vortices. I hear tell that some knucklehead actually beat the entire
game using nothing but drakeling acid spit...

Also, I think it was previously undocumented that bards get two free
skill advances per level. This is really helpful for trolls and orcs,
who have great skill sets, but a lousy learning stats. Would this be
a good place to mention that, or is it too small a detail?
------------------

------------------
0.2.2 Changing alignment

Please mention that sacrificing 'evil' artifacts will give a lawful
boost to one's alignment. By 'evil' I mean the Crown of Science,
the Ancient Scythe, etc... This is very important to PC's that
are trying to get (pre)crowned as a non-lawful. It's a very nasty
surprise to inadvertantly switch one's alignment to L in the middle
of a marathon saccing session.

Also please mention the fact that, when saccing to change one's
alignment, a lonely 1 gold piece per sac is just as effective as 100.

One final thing, maybe mention the tactic of intentionally irritating
a diety with repeated prayers for the purpose of getting some item
dusted. I've used that trick a number of times, and wish I would have
read about it earlier than I did.

---------------------

----------------------
0.4 Skills - description and usefulness

> Alchemy

Please mention the use of offensive alchemy. The power of the explosion
is related to the skill training, with lower levels creating more
powerful explosions.

Also please mention the fact that when the skill reaches 100, only
blessed potions can be brewed. This is very important because blessed
potions of deafness can behave very strangely. I don't know if it is
as bug, but most of the time they do absolutely nothing, which is a
real pain if one is depending on it to pass the banshee, but sometimes
they will permenantly deafen the PC.

> can be used every turn to fight sickness. This can be a life saver.

Either I misunderstand this, or it's wrong. I've never noticed any
benefit from applying first aid to sickness, other than training
the skill.

> Gardening - For farmers, of course.

That's minimal to say the least. Please mention the fact that one can
not train this skill by planting regular seeds, only herb seeds. Also
please mention the fact that early herb farming can be an enormously
powerful tactic. Also, please mention the fact that planting herb seeds
on ANY level will indeed make that level herb sustaining.

> Find Weakness - Very nice increase to critical hits.

Maybe mention that it stacks with slaying weapons, and is the ONLY
way to get critical hits with non-prefixed ammo, like rocks, coins,
and regular 1d6 arrows.

> Gemology - Gems are found and some identified solely depending on this
> skill. Without it, gems will not be found when mining. Exploitable.

It's occuring to me that what I really want is for my 'sell your skills'
guide to be posted in the GB. *kidding*

> Metallurgy - Essential for weaponsmiths.

Even posted a humerous poem about this one. If there is info on exactly
what it does, please post it, if not, maybe mention that it's effects
are currently unknown.

> Mining - High level in Mining helps stop pickaxes from breaking.

Also, it reduces the number of game turns spent digging.
------------

-------------
0.5 Spells - description and usefulness

Please mention that some spells stack. This makes it much more pleasant
to work with them in the game, and a lot of players just don't bother
with them because they don't like to continually recast them all the
time. Included in stacking spells are: bless, strength of Atlas,
invisibility, and farsight.

Strength Of Atlas / Lordly Might (W + E) * 20

I remember Soirana once mentioning that it's magnitude was Ma * 1000,
but that may have been code dived info.
-------------

---------
0.6.1.1 Exercising stats naturally
> Strained and especially Strained! for too long probably abuses the Dexterity stat.

Not even a little.

> Willpower - no known way to exercise naturally

Cast spells while confused, but that was code-dived.

> Dexterity - no known way to exercise naturally

Throwing boomerangs, but that was originally code-dived as well, but
has since been 're-discovered' in a non-code dived way, so I say
include it.
---------------

---------------
0.7 Weapon skills

It is a recent discovery that critical hits yield double skill marks.
I don't know if that's worth including though.
---------------
0.9.5 Strategies for dealing with particularly annoying monsters

Darkness is mentioned as a good way of dealing with dopplegangers,
but it is also good for mimics, and vortices. Why aren't vortices
mentioned as annoying? : )
---------------
--------------
Section 0.10.1 corruption

unholy aura:
> Note that invisible PCs do not suffer the effects of this corruption:

Indeed they do suffer. I can say for 100% certain that they do
in the quickling tree at least, and quicklings don't see invis.
-----------

------------
0.12.2 Immunity

I remember someone once posting on RGRA that eating a gorgon corpse
while wearing an amulet of petrification resistance grants petrification
immunity. Never tried it myself though.
--------------

---------------
0.12.5 Teleportitis and teleport control

One of the biggest factors in the game is acquiring a source of teleport
and control. For this reason, I would like it if there was a brief
description of the easiest way for any PC to obtain it. I say ID
stair hopping between levels 3 and 4 is best for getting a BD corpse,
but if that's controversial, then skip it. I think the best source of
on-demand teleportation is the guaranteed TP wand from the VDDL. All
a PC needs to get it is a scroll of magic mapping, or a wand/scroll of
item detection, or a crystal of knowledge. They can then use the TP
traps on the level to reach the wand, and the TP trapped stairs as a
return route. If that's too long though, condense it or skip it.

------------------
0.12.3 Dooming and Cursing

There is a game bug that causes fireproof blankets to be positively
effected by the cursed and doomed intrinsics. It makes them last almost
forever in the ToEF's.
-----------------

--------------
0.13.6 Herbs

A good place for mentioning the benefit of the gardening skill making
any level herb-sustaining. Also, I couldn't find a place in the GB
that actually spells out how to appropriately apply the herbalism
skill. Specifically, I mean 'a'pply the skill while standing on an herb
square, and if the message reads 'strong herbs' you can pick once, and
if it reads 'full of blossoms' you can safely pick twice. I don't know
if it should be mentioned here or in the 'skills' section, but it should
be mentioned. This is one of the things we often chat to new players
about on the forums.

Also please mention the fact that herbs can not grow on a square that
is occupied by a spider's web. This can be a nasty surprise for the
unprepared.
--------------

[gut]

Double posting is fun!

------------
0.13.7 Shops

> Shops can be robbed.
> they can summon hordes of thugs who attack

> invisibility can be used to rob shops without making the shopkeeper
> hostile

> PC with the Teleportation spell can teleport a shopkeeper out of
> his shop

> it is impossible to choose the destination of the shopkeeper, this
> is a dangerous technique

Are all good, but maybe we can add a bit.

Using teleport on the PC to rob a shop results in summoned thugs,
non-hostile villagers, and AUTOMATIC cursing for all non-chaotic PC's.
Chaotics never have to worry about cursing or dooming, even if the
shopkeeper is killed in the most blatant manner possible.

Using the stun ray spell, zaps from wands of paralyzation/stun ray,
offensive bolt spells, and mindcraft against a shopkeeper in the PC's
LOS causes thugs to be summoned, and AUTOMATIC cursing for all non-
chaotic PC's, but no angry villagers.

Using all of those methods while the shopkeeper is out of the PC's LOS
or while the PC stands in a patch of darkness causes NO thugs, angry
villagers, or cursing even with a non-chaotic PC, and even when the
shopkeeper is killed while not in a state of panic. In these cases, the
villagers actually fight the shopkeeper, which is hilarious.

IMPORTANT: If you kill ANYONE in a village while they are in a state
of panic for ANY reason, the whole town goes hostile!

Ventriloquism generates no thugs, hostile villagers or cursing, even
with a non-chaotic PC, and even when the shopkeeper is killed while
not in a state of panic.

Engaging a shopkeeper in melee with a non-chaotic PC, even while
standing in a patch of darkness will result in thugs being summoned,
AUTOMATIC cursing AND dooming for all non-chaotic PC's, and hostile
villagers.

Using the pick pockets skill on a shopkeeper, even in the dark will
result in thugs being summoned, AUTOMATIC cursing for non-chaotic
PC's, and non-hostile villagers.

Digging shop walls and kicking the loot outside is the safest and
most game-breaking way of robbing a store, as there are no side effects.

It is important to note that shopkeepers can only attack with a coin
throw once.
--------------


Here's the out-of-order stuff:
--------------
2.16.1 The Snake from Beyond

> To attack the temple, the PC must dig in, have a means of crossing the water

As strange as it sounds, the PC doesn't have to cross the water. It is
possible to stand at a diagonal line to the temple entrance, and zap
a wand of far slaying in there to awaken the Snake. Often lightning and
magic missile bolts will work as well, but that depends on the PC. The
Snake will emerge, but sometimes you have to wait a bit. To prevent
the Snake from fleeing back into the main chamber, it is a good idea to
lure him to the previous level.

> The only monster found here who sees invisible is the Snake from Beyond.

Of greater importance is the use of darkness. That is the safest way
I know. No monster in the Water temple sees in dark.

> Unfortunately, it is not vulnerable to any type of slaying ammo.

It's a demon, so it's vulnerable to demon slaying.
----------------


-----------
Darkness:

Since many parts of the GB deal with battle strategies, I would like
to see some more mention of darkness. Darkness is one of the most
useful options available to all literate PC's, yet it's one of the
most under-used. I can't count the number of players that say that
they never even bothered with trying it. Here are a few aspects
of darkness that are often mentioned on the forum (mainly by me :D ):

Monsters that can't see in dark will allow the PC to pound them to
death without retaliation. The only exception is for monsters that
are capable of panic. These monsters will be able to hit the PC
when in a state of panic, but ONLY if they do not have an escape
route. For this reason, it's best to avoid using darkness in a narrow
corridor, because stray monsters can easily cut off the escape path
of a powerful monster that is capable of killing the PC with one hit.

*NO* giant can see in darkness, most humanoids also can't, with the
notable exceptions of trolls, orcs, minotaurs, and dark elves.
This is especially important to remember against tough monsters such
as ogre magi (yes even the arena champion kind). Vortices, mimics,
and several other early-game PC killers are all helpless in darkness,
and vortices aren't even capable of panic :P

There is a bug in the game that keeps darkness from working properly
on door squares. It is important to mention that the PC is perfectly
safe to use darkness if the *PC* is on the door square, but not if
the MONSTER is on the door square.
--------------


And that's where I leave off for today. Expect more long-windedness in
the near future...

[Epythic]

Here's what I'd like to see most:
- release it under a free license
- the Talents table from the IGB
- the improved navigation (e.g. at the top of each page, and for each subsection)
- maybe convert it into a wiki

[Harwin]

> Strained and especially Strained! for too long probably abuses the Dexterity stat.

Not even a little.

I've never had Strained abuse my Dexterity, but I'm pretty sure, in a recent play (winbeta, latest version) that being Strained! for a very long time cost me dex.
I don't think I was overburdened for any significant amount of time, and certainly not at the point I lost the dex.

It could be something else, like the even short duration Overburdened status, but Strained! seems dangerous to Dex to me based on my own experience.

[Soirana]

no we have gut's halucinations on top of regular guidebook mistakes...

how about just fixing basic guidebook nonsense - like fighters having swimming as class skill?

Gut - where on Earth you took out petrification immunity as concept?

[Maul]

I remember someone once posting on RGRA that eating a gorgon corpse
while wearing an amulet of petrification resistance grants petrification
immunity. Never tried it myself though.

Urban legend. I did it, got "Crunch! Crunch! Crunch!" and according to a later potion of insight, no resistance was given.

[Sami]

0.2.2 Changing alignment

Please mention that sacrificing 'evil' artifacts will give a lawful
boost to one's alignment. By 'evil' I mean the Crown of Science,
the Ancient Scythe, etc... This is very important to PC's that
are trying to get (pre)crowned as a non-lawful. It's a very nasty
surprise to inadvertantly switch one's alignment to L in the middle
of a marathon saccing session.

Also please mention the fact that, when saccing to change one's
alignment, a lonely 1 gold piece per sac is just as effective as 100.

One final thing, maybe mention the tactic of intentionally irritating
a diety with repeated prayers for the purpose of getting some item
dusted. I've used that trick a number of times, and wish I would have
read about it earlier than I did.


Maybe you could also add how much different activities affect on alignment.
I have got these figures from some of my experiments (I may remember a bit wrong so please don't put these in without verifying it first):
- Healing a monster (any monster or pet seems to be ok if you haven't damaged it): +6 stones.
- Whipping self: +0.2 stones per every hit point taken.

These are base values for level 50 PC. For lower level PCs multiply the values by (51-level). For example level 40 PC gains 10 times as big boost than level 50 PC and for level 1 it's 50 times as big boost.
In case of whipping (or maybe with others if they can have fractions too) the effect is rounded down to nearest integer. This means that level 50 PC needs to do at least 5 damage on a single whipping to gain any effect.
Month and amulet of balance (and other if there are any) effects should be also taken in account.




0.5 Spells - description and usefulness

Please mention that some spells stack. This makes it much more pleasant
to work with them in the game, and a lot of players just don't bother
with them because they don't like to continually recast them all the
time. Included in stacking spells are: bless, strength of Atlas,
invisibility, and farsight.

Strength Of Atlas / Lordly Might (W + E) * 20

I remember Soirana once mentioning that it's magnitude was Ma * 1000,
but that may have been code dived info.


Not too hard to figure this without code-diving.

Also it might be worth of it to note that at least strength of atlas lasts a lot shorter time when walking in wilderness (except the last 5 turns when you get warnings).



0.7 Weapon skills

It is a recent discovery that critical hits yield double skill marks.
I don't know if that's worth including though.


Double? I think it's always +1 mark only. (which is double for only against monsters that give 1 base mark only).

[JellySlayer]

A few more...

I'm fairly certain that all classes get haggling, first aid, and listening, not just those listed in section 0.1.1. This information appears to be correct in 0.4.1 though. I think it should be mentioned that haggling should only be used at high skill values, or it is likely the PC will experience a nasty price increase.

In S 0.4.3 Herbalism can also be trained by picking herbs as well as identifying them.

In 0.1.3, orcs face similar problems as dark elfs with regard to prices in dwarftown. The dangerously short lifespans of orcs and trolls may also be worth emphasizing. Gnomes also level faster than other races, and both gnomes and hurthlings receive an extra talent as noted in the manual. I'm not sure if it is mentioned elsewhere, but all non-summoned animals are neutral to druids, including cats. [edit]But not including bugs in the bug-infested temple.

It may be worth including a section discussing the effects and costs of prayers.

In 1.2.1.6, it is worth noting that the druid will give the PC a potion of cure corruption for the corpses of powerful chaotic monsters besides Keethrax, even if the PC did not take his quest. Notably, all orb guardians, Keriax, minotaur emperor, and (greater) black unicorn corpses will receive potions. I'm not sure about a few others, such as greater moloch corpses.

The PC is only required to visit the pyramid and the maze for the first time during the specified level periods. Once the PC has visited those areas once, they may return at any level. This means that PCs should always have the opportunity to visit the pyramid, since they may simply enter at level 13, leave right away, and come back when they feel strong enough--even if that happens to be level 25.

In S 2.19.1, the ACW does not appear to have a particular weakness to cold attacks. The speed listed seems very low to me--I usually see him with a speed of around 130.

In 2.22.2.1, if the PC chats to the Ghost Librarian having not had enough turns pass, the Ghost Librarian will say "Respect the Silence!" or something of that nature: this will cause the ~2000 turn counter in the library to be reset: if the PC spends 2000 more turns there, the weird tome can still be claimed.

On D50, I believe it is only necessary to kill the Balors on the level to ensure the gate remains closed.

4.1 Andor Drakon is not vulnerable to humanoid slaying weapons or ammo. He is vulnerable to daemon slaying equipment, including the ToRR.

In Appendix A, Amulet of cold heart provides =Cold, not -Cold

In Appendix D, in additional to invoking a random spell, the wand of wonder also provides a small number of castings of that spell.

[edit]: On a more extensive note, I would love to see the monster table include information such as which monsters see invisible, see in darkness, elemental resistances, and what types of slaying ammo they are vulnerable to.

[Epythic]

On a more extensive note, I would love to see the monster table include information such as which monsters see invisible, see in darkness, elemental resistances, and what types of slaying ammo they are vulnerable to.

And if they can smash doors.

[Harwin]

[edit]: On a more extensive note, I would love to see the monster table include information such as which monsters see invisible, see in darkness, elemental resistances, and what types of slaying ammo they are vulnerable to.

Speaking of this, the guidebook incorrectly claims the Ancient Karmic Wyrm sees invisible.

[Molach]

> A PC that trains a given skill due to both race and class will be especially
> proficient with that skill.

This info is highly suspect in ADOM 1.1.1.

I have, and just did some tests that indicate that this is true. Class+race training will give you a higher skill score. However the increase-dice will be lower, as if you had pumped the skill by levelups.

Did this to illustrate just now:
Farmer class:
Human - Cooking : 15, 4d5 dice.
Hurthling - Cooking: 41, 3d5 dice.
Grey elf - Cooking:13. 4d5 dice.

Hurthling starts higher skill, but has "used up" the best dice. Grey elf raised cooking to 41, and dice became 3d5 like the hurthlings'.

[mike]

Re: darkness, I was thinking of compiling a convenient list of things that do see in the dark. Off the top of my head:

* all orcs
* all dark elves
* all minotaurs
* all undead
* all red dragons
* great blue wyrm
* stone golem
* stone grue
* stone snake
* earth elemental
* greater earth elemental
* living wall
* wall beast
* diamond golem
* eternium golem
* steel golem
* steel horror
* carrion crawler
* chaos brother
* WMoPC
* master assassin
* fire demon
* quickling king
* quickling queen
* greater claw bug
* killer bug
* least daemon
* lesser daemon
* greater daemon
* jackal demon
* black unicorn

Doesn't include uniques, and I may have missed some.

[Andy Williams]

Killing certain chaotic beasts draws the PCs alignment towards lawful ... I believe this works all the way up to level 50

...

The same effect can be experienced by lawfuls using whips, on some occasions.

...

Poison hands corruption does not prevent the PC from 'U'sing herbs such as spenseweed, or doing alchemy.

OK, one down and many to go. Killing chaotics pushing towards Law certainly does work for L50 PCs - I'll never forget the time I fell from champion status killing things on D:50. From then on I always kept a blessed amulet of balance handy in that situation.

The only thing I left out was lawfuls and whips. Is this simply not guaranteed? Try it repeatedly and it will eventually work?

I assume successful Alchemy with Poison Hands is regarded as a bug?

[Andy Williams]

I think the Guidebook doesn't mention explicitly that Jharod cures sickness.

Also, the SMC blanket always seems to be in one of the farthest squares from the stairs

So if you already have good Le and therefore get decent castings, you train Le more.

Jharod vs Sickness (and Poisoned) is there. SMC blanket & Le updated.

[Conundrum]

It may be worth including a section discussing the effects and costs of prayers.

The IGB page on Piety/alignment is very very useful.
http://adomgb.sweb.cz/piety.html
It includes crowning costs, prayer costs and priorities, alignment values, piety values, and effects on alignment changes.

Having said that I am of course not entirely sure of the accuracy of the contents of that page or the method through which the information was acquired - but a similar compilation of piety information would be a good addition to the GB imo.

[Soirana]

SMC blanket & Le updated.

now guidebook started including rumors... will need to revert to IGB...

[JellySlayer]

OK, one down and many to go. Killing chaotics pushing towards Law certainly does work for L50 PCs - I'll never forget the time I fell from champion status killing things on D:50. From then on I always kept a blessed amulet of balance handy in that situation.

The only thing I left out was lawfuls and whips. Is this simply not guaranteed? Try it repeatedly and it will eventually work?

To be honest, I just haven't tested it--I know it happens, but I don't know the specifics. I'll see if I have a lawful character kicking around with some herbs, a whip, and good piety, and will get back to you about this.

[edit]Tested this. It's extremely unreliable. With a crowned character at very close, I whipped the character hundreds of times and had it happen only a few times--I'd guess maybe 1&#37; probability. You get the message "You feel remorse. You feel lifted of the dark spirits devouring your health."


Re: darkness, I was thinking of compiling a convenient list of things that do see in the dark. Off the top of my head:

I can't imagine that molochs and balors don't. [edit]Okay, apparently neither sees in darkness although they will fight back if you attack them first, good to know... I think some chaos monsters might too.. trying to remember what in the Mana Temple can hit in darkness.

[Andy Williams]

> Metallurgy - Essential for weaponsmiths.

Even posted a humerous poem about this one. If there is info on exactly
what it does, please post it, if not, maybe mention that it's effects
are currently unknown.

Thanks gut, all has been incorporated except your remarks on shops and darkness. I'll get to those tomorrow.

I'm sure there's more to it than I know, but what is the mystery about Metallurgy? AFAIK, it does what the ADOM manual says it does. Identifies what metal an object is made from.

[Andy Williams]

And if they can smash doors.

The ability to smash doors is in the Misc column at far right. No guarantees it's complete.

[gut]

>what is the mystery about Metallurgy?

It's just hard to believe that a skill can be THAT weak.
It's easy to identify ore types on sight, by looking at
thier wieght. I started wondering if it may also, even
slightly, increase the chance of generating ore from
mining. Smithing bores me though, so never had an
interest in testing.

[Sami]

To be honest, I just haven't tested it--I know it happens, but I don't know the specifics. I'll see if I have a lawful character kicking around with some herbs, a whip, and good piety, and will get back to you about this.

[edit]Tested this. It's extremely unreliable. With a crowned character at very close, I whipped the character hundreds of times and had it happen only a few times--I'd guess maybe 1% probability. You get the message "You feel remorse. You feel lifted of the dark spirits devouring your health."


I think whips are the most reliable and fastest way to gain alignment, especially if you are still relatively low level (below 40-45). To make it work you need to drop your PV as down as possible (preferably to negative values to gain best effect) and start whipping with whip with as good damage die as possible (whip of slaughtering > whip of the snake > normal whip).

When whipping self the damage die of the whip are thrown and your PV is reduced from this. The constant damage modifier of the is ignored. If the result is negative, it has no effect (just gives message to you to get rid off some protection or says you are really touch).

For example when using whip of the snake (5d2+7) and you have PV of 3, you'll do MAX(5d2-3, 0) damage to self (4,5 on average).
If you have PV of 28 and use whip of slaughtering (1d30+3), you'll do MAX(1d30-28, 0) damage to self, which means you need to get 29 or 30 from dice roll to gain any effect. In this case probability to gain any effect is only 6,7% and even then maximum damage you can inflict is 2.

[Maul]

Wouldn't a whip of penetration be the best of all? Guaranteed, yet low damage.

[JellySlayer]

I think whips are the most reliable and fastest way to gain alignment, especially if you are still relatively low level (below 40-45). To make it work you need to drop your PV as down as possible (preferably to negative values to gain best effect) and start whipping with whip with as good damage die as possible (whip of slaughtering > whip of the snake > normal whip).

This wasn't for changing alignment. It was for curing sickness. I had a PV of 1 (from crowning) and was using a whip of slaughtering. Just about every hit was counting toward alignment, but only ~1% would cure sickness.

[Andy Williams]

There is a new table in section 0.13.7 re: robbing shops. If anyone can correct or fill in blanks, please post.

[Molach]

About fire temple, Soiranas work on the ToEF guide (from the other forum) has some good info for this section. http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/messages.asp?thread=6217&start=60260&page=1&tmp=60716

You should include the ADOM guides in "other online resources about ADOM"

http://adomguides.blogspot.com/

[Andy Williams]

Darkness:


gut's stuff is all in, including a new section 0.14.0 re: Darkness

[Andy Williams]

About fire temple, Soiranas work on the ToEF guide (from the other forum) has some good info for this section. http://adom.brinkster.net/forum/messages.asp?thread=6217&start=60260&page=1&tmp=60716

You should include the ADOM guides in "other online resources about ADOM"

http://adomguides.blogspot.com/

Will look re: ToEF. ADOM Guides is in. Incidentally, the URL to the GB is incorrect on that page.

[Soirana]

About fire temple, Soiranas work on the ToEF guide ...
You should include the ADOM guides

Just to clear things finally i would be very glad if any work of mine in any form[ToEF guide and class guides written by me in particular] would not be included in anything that guidebook is trying transform into...

Thank you in advance.

[Laukku]

Urban legend. I did it, got "Crunch! Crunch! Crunch!" and according to a later potion of insight, no resistance was given.

Maybe it's random?

[_Ln_]

I remembered the story with the PoCC and it's effect when thrown, so I decided to make some tests with potions. So, here's some results (wished for stuff, used blessed stethoscope), which can be probably used by bards in order to make pets stronger (however, throwing non-healing potions make them hostile ;) ) or just to understand, how actually is ADoM cool - and believe me, I was totally amused to find different and funny messages for effects.

Not all monsters yield a special message, for some it's just nothing happens (for example !ofYouth at undead)


St and To - +20/10/0 HP B/U/C (*foo* seems to be getting stronger/weaker)
Dx - nothing (*foo* suddenly moves with more grace/less grace)
Ap - nothing (*foo* suddenly appears more beautiful/uglier)
Ma - nothing (*foo* suddenly is surrounded by a mystical aura/appears to be somewhat boring)
Le - nothing (*foo* cunningly/foolishly stares at you)
Ch - nothing (*foo* suddenly smiles/frowns)
Wi - nothing (*foo* looks harden/soften)

Trool Blood, Boost -stat- and Gain Attribute- +5/+3/+1 hp B/U/C (*foo* seems to grow stronger/weaker (but actually hp is increased)).
Potential -stat- - the same as -stat-.
Quickling blood - speed is increased/decreased, numbers are probably the same as for the PC.
Youth - nothing (*foo* looks younger/older)
Deafness - nothing (*foo* rubs his ears)
Longevity - nothing (*foo* appears to be more/less vigorous)
Sickness - nothing - that is dissapointing! (*foo* looks somewhat green)
Potion of raw mana - invis/invis/blindness B/U/C - looks like it works as !ofInvis - strange
Insight - nothing - *foo* suddenly seems to smile - not a slightest idea about the meaning :D
Wonder - confuses (!)
Orange juice - nothing *foo* is covered with an orange liquid :D
Uselessness - absolutely nothing happens - that's quite funny =)
Training/education - *foo* suddenly appears more learned/less learned
Stun recovery - nothing (it doesn't help them to recover from stunning btw - tested with a wand of stunning) - *foo* calms down/doesn't seem to be happy!
Oil/oil of rust removal - nothing (even for rust monsters) - you oil *foo* :D
Balance - nothing - *foo* calms down - which it doesn't actually
Cure Poison - nothing happens

Didn't test others - they're obvious (confusion, blindness, poison)...
Potions of literacy bounces off monsters and it makes it "softly" (really, it's the message, not my imagination =) )
My desired idea about monsters choking whilst paralyzed and sickened didn't work - what a pity... :(

[JellySlayer]

Maybe it's random?

I checked this with about 100 gorgon corpses. No resistance.

[gut]

> written by me in particular] would not be included in anything
> that guidebook is trying transform into...

Soirana, I respect you to no end, but don't you think the GB should
be updated? There are a lot of questions about kinda basic stuff that
people ask here all the time. How to garden, that kind of stuff just
wasn't covered in the GB to my knowledge. The GB always gave
tips and strategy hints in the past, so why not give some more now?
Is it just the possibility of code-dived stuff that bugs you, or how I
mentioned getting -petr from gorgon corpse eating? If you notice,
I didn't mention it in a way so as to represent it as fact, I typed:

"I remember someone once posting on RGRA that eating a gorgon corpse
while wearing an amulet of petrification resistance grants petrification
immunity. Never tried it myself though."

I'm also trying to point out the stuff that may have it's roots in code
diving, and the stuff that is just from playing experience. Continuing
to point out innacuracies and give other tips would make the GB
better. If you see something that's not right, just point to it : )

Having said that, here's another near-10,000 character abomination:


Is the pit bug mentioned in the GB? The one about covering a
pit with a regular blanket, in order to produce a different kind
of trap in unusual locations? I don't think that was code dived.

Forgot to mention something in the 'alignment' section.
There is a bug in the game that allows a player to attack
non-hostiles without an alignment hit. Just shoot a missile
past your intended target. This will still result in an
alignment penalty if you kill, say, a beggar, but you won't
get penalized for starting the fight.

Also, a mindcrafters confusion attack seems to have the
same effect, but I don't think that's a bug. This is
really important for challenges like 'kill Terinyo', because
the town won't even become hostile to a mindcrafter for
killing a (non-panicing) villager that has first been attacked
with a confusion blast.

-----------------------
0.14.1 Recharging wands

Maybe mention the exploit to have infinite potions of booze for wand
recharging: Beggars will often drop a potion of booze if one chats
with them after giving them ~50 gp, They will only give one per beggar
though, so it one must kill or lead away the used-up beggars, and
other monsters in Lawenilothehl to encourage beggar regeneration.
This is also something that players often mention as being unknown
to them.
------------------------

---------------------
0.14.4 Potions of raw chaos

> There is a chance of spilling the potion, though, and this badly
> corrupts the PC, about 4 corruptions, and causes 100 - 200 HP of damage.

The spillage doesn't cause that much corruption, and to my knowledge,
it does no damage.

It is only when an item is transformed into the exact same item that
an explosion happens, and that causes ~4 corruptions and ~250
damage . This may be code-dived.

Potions will only create items of a danger level that corresponds to the
level on which you dip the item. That means that dipping an amulet of
free action in D:2 is free from explosion chances, and will give a risk
free chance of creating an amulet of life saving. This is not code dived.

Also, a heap of items that are dipped into a potion of raw chaos will
always transform into a SINGLE item. Not code dived.
-------------------

-------------------
0.14.5 Potions of exchange
> In addition to swapping stats, these can polymorph monsters, and items, to another type.

Please mention that PoE must be blessed in order to transform items.

Also, since this is in the 'tips and tricks' section, maybe ellaborate
a bit in this section. Maybe mention the fact that dipping items in high
danger level areas is the only way to create high danger level items. It
may be worth popping into the dwarven halls for a single turn, just to
dip a pair of bracers or some rings. I think maybe ring-based wish engines
should get a mention here.
--------------------

--------------------
0.14.8 Safe places to store items

> Locked rooms

> The Old Barbarian's glade

Please mention the top line of the Terinyo map. Many experienced
players have mentioned not knowing this, and it is a very convenient
place to store items. The only monster in Terinyo that can step on
the top line it the sheriff, and he can easily be lured to the first
level of the puppy cave. It is then 100% secure. Skriek can step on
the top line as well, if one lures him there. Definitely not CD'd : )
---------------------

--------------------
0.14.11 Undocumented character abilities

> Tactics must be set to berserk. Shields are acceptable, any worn
> armor is not.

Bracers can be worn, without effecting the true berserker bonus.

Elementalists have a bug associated with their exp. level 6 class
power. It actually does not give fire resistance : ( Not CD'd.

> Merchants also have a unique ability to use coins as missile weapons

I'm not sure this is the place to stick this info, but I don't know
where else to put it. The coin throw action costs 1200 energy points
as opposed to the normal 1000. Getting the 'quick shot talent does
apply to the coin throw attack, bringing it to 1080. The coin throw
attack is not capable of recieving weapon marks, nor does it benefit
from the 'strong thrower' talent. The archery talent is not trained
by coin throwing. Coin throwing does benefit from a high dexterity
stat, rings of slaying, archery gloves, the 'good shot' talent, the 'keen
shot' talent, the 'quick shot' talent, the 'missile weapon master' talent,
and the 'find weakness' skill. Coin throw attack start out with a range
of only 3, but at exp. level 10, it increases to 5, and increases further
with continued increases in exp. levels. I don't remember the exact
levels, sorry. I may dig them from my notes later. None of this is code
dived... believe me! ; )

Also, no PC in the game can dodge missiles like archers can. When a
missile misses all other PC's, it stops there. For archers though,
the missiles often fly past the PC. It's a minor thing though, and
somewhat annoying really, but I'm pretty sure it indicates a 'special
chance' to dodge missiles that other classes just don't get.

I'm realizing that this is the place for the 'bards get two free
skill advances per level' info : )

Now though, I've thought of another piece of info that should be
included in the GB, but I'm not sure where it should be. Specifically,
I was somewhat surprised to note how different the skill modifiers
were for different classes. I mainly used to only pay attention to
what skills a PC HAD, not how trained they were.

Necros and elementalists usually start with horrible modifiers on
their skills. This is really important info, because elementalists
can be greatly hindered by the fact that they have to increase
their concentration skill by increments of 1d5 and even 1d3 as they
near 100. Necros also have a horrible time increasing concentration,
and just as important for them the food preservation skill. I'm not
certain of the points that 'Food Preservation' increases corpse
production, but I think it's once at 60 and again at 90, and that
info is not code-dived. On the other hand, rangers, bards and
beastfighters can expect amazing 4d5 modifiers on most if not all of
their skills, and that can be a great benefit for corpse production
and herbalism.
--------------------

---------------------
1.2.1.6 Guth'Alak

Completely unimportant, but he can turn hostile if one tries
to chop trees in Terinyo in his line of sight. Also, even if
angered, he will never leave his water area to persue the PC,
but he will cast spells that can travel numerous spaces. He
will help the PC fight Munxip if the PC angers the shopkeeper
with the right tactics.

----------------------

-------------------
1.2.1.8 Townspeople

> The remaining townspeople are simply flavor elements without
> any real importance in the game.

They have their uses : ) For instance, a PC wanting to gain
some super-safe exp. points can lure children and goodwives
out of town to kill them. Perhaps even slaughter them right in
town, but one needs to first confusion blast, or ventriloquism
them. Also, killing them is a fine way to achieve a C alignment,
and that's great for any PC that wants to avoid the automattic
cursing that comes with (many methods of) robbing a shop or
killing a shopkeeper for the exp. points.
-----------------

----------------
.2.2.1 Yergius

> Yergius teaches Pick Pockets to any non-lawful PC at no cost.

Please mention that Yergius will NOT teach pick pockets to any
PC that first robs the Black Market.

> Yergius' initial training results in a Pick Pockets skill
> level of one. This means that it is not really useful

Not true. The pick pockets skill at a training level of 1 is
a guaranteed way of angering a non-hostile villager. This will
sometimes anger villagers that are in the line of sight of this
action, but not if they don't see it. Also, it is fine to kill
all the villagers that are angered by seeing the action as well.
Not every PC has access to confusion blast, ventriloquism, or a
stun ray bolt, so having a low pick pockets skill can be valuable.
I've even used a horrible pick pockets attempt as a way of getting
Thrundarr of his lever.
--------------

------------
1.2.2.4 Skriek

If Skriek isn't led away from Lawenilothehl before the PC
attacks Hotz, Skriek will turn hostile.
---------------

[gut]

... and another installment:


--------------
1.2.2.5 Hotzenplotz and his guards

May be worth mentioning that these guys will often kill
villagers that wonder into their hut. This is important
to remember if an assasin or outlaw leader starts chasing
the PC. Also, there are water squares on the Lawenilothehl
map that will shield the PC from these goons for an easy
low level kill.
-----------------

----------------
1.2.2.6 Other inhabitants of Lawenilothehl
> Beggars are useful because they will drop a potion of booze

> It is usually cursed

It is ALWAYS cursed. I'm 100% sure on this.
-----------------

-----------------

2.2 The Arena

Maybe mention that the exp. gains that one gets from the
arena fights is very much dependant upon the exp. level
of the PC when accepting the fight. This is important for
trolls or any other PC that is going to have problems getting
experience at higher levels. Any PC with high speed, such as
raven-borns, monks, PC's with the athletics skill, or anyone
who munches on quicklings will probably benefit from leaving
the extra arena fights for when they are releatively high level.
------------------

-------------------
2.4 The Si

I know that it is already mentioned that the PC should not
take Si's into the ID, but there is a peculiarity in the
game, that monsters will never pick up Si's in the ID. Other
artifacts can be left behind in this way, but not Si's.
-------------

--------------
2.5.3.1 Thrundarr's quests, their rewards and the significance of the rewards

> 1) Slay a random creature.

The assigned monster's danger level is dependant on the PC's
exp. level. It may also be dependant on the PC's highest danger
level seen, but I'm pretty sure that's code dived.

> 2) Find out what is beyond the animated forest.

Maybe this would be considered bloat, but maybe mention the
usefulness of darkness in the animated forest. Trees don't
see in the dark, and it has saved my life many times.

> 3) Kill the ogre tribe below Dwarftown

A funny bug in the game prevents pets from being able to
damage the ogres in here. Also mention that this is a very
good opportunity to increase the PC's strength stat through
eating the ogre corpses. The chance of a strength increase
is improved if the PC first temporarily decreases their
strength stat via starvation. Just don't starve yourself to
death accidentally. Easy enought to avoid really, because
the PC won't starve to death as long as their stats keep
dropping, it's only when they stop reducing that death is
possible. Ogres are giants, so none of them can see in the
dark. This is a great way of dealing with magi.
-------------

-------------
2.6 The Old Barbarian's glade

The single best place in the game to wish for the emperor
moloch. The greater molochs should be summoned on the far right
side of the map, so they will appear bunched together there.
A quick teleport, and strategic use of frost bolt, frost bolt,
fire bolt, will yield a perfectly safe ice island from which the
PC can snipe his way to exp. level 50 with ease.

Also, the old barbarian himself can be a useful source of early
game exp. points for those who care little for the courage skill.
The water squares provide perfect safety, all that's needed is
plenty of ammo, and rocks serve nicely.
-----------------

----------------
2.7.2.2 Nonnak

Maybe mention the usefulness of potions of blindness. Any PC
with the alchemy skill will have access to them at this point
in the game, and it makes him an easy kill.


-----------------

------------------
2.8 The Mad Minstrel

He randomly drops corpses that correspond to the danger level
of the level he is on. In his own clearing, he will drop mainly
goblin, orc, and bat corpses. If one leads him a few steps over
to the BUGWIL level though, he will drop plenty of dragon and
giant corpses. Pretty safe, but at least one greater bug will
have to be killed first. That's not difficult though, as any
offfensive wand will work nicely.
-------------

----------
2.9.1 The first two levels

Perhaps mention the fact that this is the first guaranteed
instance of a corruption trap in the game. These can often
be exploited to gain highly prized corruptions such as
'astral planes'.
--------------

-----------
2.9.2.1 Rehetep

Please mention that the warning that Rehetep gives to alert
all the monsters on the level can be avoided. The warning is
only produced when the PC FIRST enters Rehetep's line of sight.
So if a PC teleports directly to Rehetep, he won't alert the
level to the PC's presence. You still have to fight the two
jackel demons though : (
-----------------

------------------
2.10 The Gremlin Cave

Maybe mention the gremlin bomb tactic. Highly scummy, I know,
but so many people ask about it...
-----------------

-----------------
2.11.2 The VDDL

> In practice, the easiest way to find the down staircase is to zap
> a wand of item detection

Please mention the effectiveness of uncursed scrolls of magic
mapping. They have never failed to reveal the location of the
wand for me.
--------------

--------------
2.12 The Tomb of the High Kings

Please mention the effectiveness of using the 'E'ar cleaning
command as a way of not stumbling off of an ice bridge. Also,
'a'pplying the first aid skill works nicely.

Also, please mention that he will never summon help on his own
level, but if one leads him to another level, he will.
--------------

--------------
2.13.1 Shyssiryxius

> a deadly water breath attack that is capable of dealing circa 100 points of damage

It is capable of dealing ~400 points of damage. Sources of water breathing
will reduce the damage of this attack, regardless of what Soirana says.

She is also vulnerable to poison, which is in contrast to code-dived info,
so I think it is very important to mention that.



Is the pit bug mentioned in the GB? The one about covering a
pit with a regular blanket, in order to produce a different
kind of trap in unusual locations?


Forgot to mention something in the 'alignment' section.
There is a bug in the game that allows a player to attack
non-hostiles without an alignment hit. Just shoot a missile
past your intended target. This will still result in an
alignment penalty if you kill, say, a beggar, but you won't
get penalized for starting the fight.

Also, a mindcrafters confusion attack seems to have the
same effect, but I don't think that's a bug. This is
really important for challenges like 'kill Terinyo', because
the town won't even become hostile to a mindcrafter for
killing a (non-panicing) villager that has first been attacked
with a confusion blast.

-----------------------
0.14.1 Recharging wands

Maybe mention the exploit to have infinite potions of booze for wand
recharging: Beggars will often drop a potion of booze if one chats
with them after giving them ~50 gp, They will only give one per beggar
though, so it one must kill or lead away the used-up beggars, and
other monsters in Lawenilothehl to encourage beggar regeneration.
------------------------

---------------------
0.14.4 Potions of raw chaos

> There is a chance of spilling the potion, though, and this badly
> corrupts the PC, about 4 corruptions, and causes 100 - 200 HP of damage.

The spillage doesn't cause that much corruption, and to my knowledge,
it does no damage. It is ONLY when an item is transformed into the
EXACT same item that an explosion happens, and that causes ~4 corruptions
and ~250 damage .

Potions will only create items of a danger level that corresponds to the
level on which you dip the item. That means that dipping an amulet of
free action in D:2 is free from explosion chances, and will give a risk
free chance of creating an amulet of life saving.

Also, a heap of items that are dipped into a potion of raw chaos will
always transform into a SINGLE item.

I think some of that may be code-dived stuff, but not the 'spillage does
no damage' thing.

-------------------

-------------------
0.14.5 Potions of exchange
> In addition to swapping stats, these can polymorph monsters, and items, to another type.

Please mention that PoE MUST be BLESSED in order to transform items.

Also, since this is in the 'tips and tricks' section, maybe ellaborate
a bit in this section. Maybe mention the fact that dipping items in high
danger level areas is the only way to create high danger level items. It
may be worth popping into the dwarven halls for a single turn, just to
dip a pair of bracers or some rings.
--------------------

[gut]

... and another:


--------------------
0.14.8 Safe places to store items

> Locked rooms

> The Old Barbarian's glade

Please mention the top line of the Terinyo map. Many experienced
players have mentioned not knowing this, and it is a very convenient
place to store items. The only monster in Terinyo that can step on
the top line it the sheriff, and he can easily be lured to the first
level of the puppy cave. It is then 100% secure. Skriek can step on
the top line as well, if one lures him there.
---------------------

--------------------
0.14.11 Undocumented character abilities

> Tactics must be set to berserk. Shields are acceptable, any worn
> armor is not.

Bracers can be worn, without effecting the true berserker bonus.

Elementalists have a bug associated with their exp. level 6 class
power. It actually does not give fire resistance : (

> Merchants also have a unique ability to use coins as missile weapons

I'm not sure this is the place to stick this info, but I don't know
where else to put it. The coin throw action costs 1200 energy points
as opposed to the normal 1000. Getting the 'quick shot talent does
apply to the coin throw attack, bringing it to ~1000. The coin throw
attack is not capable of recieving weapon marks, but does benefit
from the 'find weakness' skill. The attack starts out with a range
of only 2, but at exp. level 10, increases to 5, and increases further
with continued increases in exp. levels.

Also, no PC in the game can dodge missiles like archers can. When a
missile misses all other PC's, it stops there. For archers though,
the missiles often fly past the PC. It's a minor thing though, and
somewhat annoying really, but I'm pretty sure it indicates a 'special
chance' to dodge missiles that other classes just don't get.

I'm realizing that this is the place for the 'bards get two free
skill advances per level' info : )

Now though, I've thought of another piece of info that should be
included in the GB, but I'm not sure where it should be. Specifically,
I was somewhat surprised to note how different the skill modifiers
were for different classes. I mainly used to only pay attention to
what skills a PC HAD, not how trained they were.

Necros and elementalists usually start with horrible modifiers on
their skills. This is really important info, because elementalists
can be greatly hindered by the fact that they have to increase
their concentration skill by increments of 1d5 and even 1d3 as they
near 100. Necros also have a horrible time increasing concentration,
and just as important for them the food preservation skill. I'm not
certain of the points that 'Food Preservation' increases corpse
production, but I think it's once at 60 and again at 90, and that
info is not code-dived. On the other hand, rangers, bards and
beastfighters can expect amazing 4d5 modifiers on most if not all of
their skills, and that can be a great benefit for corpse production
and herbalism.
--------------------

---------------------
1.2.1.6 Guth'Alak

Completely unimportant, but he can turn hostile if one tries
to chop trees in Terinyo in his line of sight. Also, even if
angered, he will never leave his water area to persue the PC,
but he will cast spells that can travel numerous spaces. He
will help the PC fight Munxip if the PC angers the shopkeeper
with the right tactics.

----------------------

-------------------
1.2.1.8 Townspeople

> The remaining townspeople are simply flavor elements without
> any real importance in the game.

They have their uses : ) For instance, a PC wanting to gain
some super-safe exp. points can lure children and goodwives
out of town to kill them. Perhaps even slaughter them right in
town, but one needs to first confusion blast, or ventriloquism
them. Also, killing them is a fine way to achieve a C alignment,
and that's great for any PC that wants to avoid the automattic
cursing that comes with (many methods of) robbing a shop or
killing a shopkeeper for the exp. points.
-----------------

----------------
.2.2.1 Yergius

> Yergius teaches Pick Pockets to any non-lawful PC at no cost.

Please mention that Yergius will NOT teach pick pockets to any
PC that first robs the Black Market.

> Yergius' initial training results in a Pick Pockets skill
> level of one. This means that it is not really useful

Not true. The pick pockets skill at a training level of 1 is
a guaranteed way of angering a non-hostile villager. This will
sometimes anger villagers that are in the line of sight of this
action, but not if they don't see it. Also, it is fine to kill
all the villagers that are angered by seeing the action as well.
Not every PC has access to confusion blast, ventriloquism, or a
stun ray bolt, so having a low pick pockets skill can be valuable.
I've even used a horrible pick pockets attempt as a way of getting
Thrundarr of his lever.
--------------

------------
1.2.2.4 Skriek

If Skriek isn't led away from Lawenilothehl before the PC
attacks Hotz, Skriek will turn hostile.
---------------

--------------
1.2.2.5 Hotzenplotz and his guards

May be worth mentioning that these guys will often kill
villagers that wonder into their hut. This is important
to remember if an assasin or outlaw leader starts chasing
the PC. Also, there are water squares on the Lawenilothehl
map that will shield the PC from these goons for an easy
low level kill.
-----------------

----------------
1.2.2.6 Other inhabitants of Lawenilothehl
> Beggars are useful because they will drop a potion of booze

> It is usually cursed

It is ALWAYS cursed.
-----------------

-----------------

2.2 The Arena

Maybe mention that the exp. gains that one gets from the
arena fights is very much dependant upon the exp. level
of the PC when accepting the fight. This is important for
trolls or any other PC that is going to have problems getting
experience at higher levels. Any PC with high speed, such as
raven-borns, monks, PC's with the athletics skill, or anyone
who munches on quicklings will probably benefit from leaving
the extra arena fights for when they are releatively high level.
------------------

-------------------
2.4 The Si

I know that it is already mentioned that the PC should not
take Si's into the ID, but there is a peculiarity in the
game, that monsters will never pick up Si's in the ID. Other
artifacts can be left behind in this way, but not Si's.
-------------

--------------
2.5.3.1 Thrundarr's quests, their rewards and the significance of the rewards

> 1) Slay a random creature.

The assigned monster's danger level is dependant on the PC's
exp. level. It may also be dependant on the PC's highest danger
level seen, but I'm pretty sure that's code dived.

> 2) Find out what is beyond the animated forest.

Maybe this would be considered bloat, but maybe mention the
usefulness of darkness in the animated forest. Trees don't
see in the dark, and it has saved my life many times.

> 3) Kill the ogre tribe below Dwarftown

A funny bug in the game prevents pets from being able to
damage the ogres in here. Also mention that this is a very
good opportunity to increase the PC's strength stat through
eating the ogre corpses. The chance of a strength increase
is improved if the PC first temporarily decreases their
strength stat via starvation. Just don't starve yourself to
death accidentally. Easy enought to avoid really, because
the PC won't starve to death as long as their stats keep
dropping, it's only when they stop reducing that death is
possible. Ogres are giants, so none of them can see in the
dark. This is a great way of dealing with magi.
-------------

[gut]

... last one, I promise... for now:


-------------
2.6 The Old Barbarian's glade

The single best place in the game to wish for the emperor
moloch. The greater molochs should be summoned on the far right
side of the map, so they will appear bunched together there.
A quick teleport, and strategic use of frost bolt, frost bolt,
fire bolt, will yield a perfectly safe ice island from which the
PC can snipe his way to exp. level 50 with ease.

Also, the old barbarian himself can be a useful source of early
game exp. points for those who care little for the courage skill.
The water squares provide perfect safety, all that's needed is
plenty of ammo, and rocks serve nicely.
-----------------

----------------
2.7.2.2 Nonnak

Maybe mention the usefulness of potions of blindness. Any PC
with the alchemy skill will have access to them at this point
in the game, and it makes him an easy kill.


-----------------

------------------
2.8 The Mad Minstrel

He randomly drops corpses that correspond to the danger level
of the level he is on. In his own clearing, he will drop mainly
goblin, orc, and bat corpses. If one leads him a few steps over
to the BUGWIL level though, he will drop plenty of dragon and
giant corpses. Pretty safe, but at least one greater bug will
have to be killed first. That's not difficult though, as any
offfensive wand will work nicely.
-------------

----------
2.9.1 The first two levels

Perhaps mention the fact that this is the first guaranteed
instance of a corruption trap in the game. These can often
be exploited to gain highly prized corruptions such as
'astral planes'.
--------------

-----------
2.9.2.1 Rehetep

Please mention that the warning that Rehetep gives to alert
all the monsters on the level can be avoided. The warning is
only produced when the PC FIRST enters Rehetep's line of sight.
So if a PC teleports directly to Rehetep, he won't alert the
level to the PC's presence. You still have to fight the two
jackel demons though : (
-----------------

------------------
2.10 The Gremlin Cave

Maybe mention the gremlin bomb tactic. Highly scummy, I know,
but so many people ask about it...
-----------------

-----------------
2.11.2 The VDDL

> In practice, the easiest way to find the down staircase is to zap
> a wand of item detection

Please mention the effectiveness of uncursed scrolls of magic
mapping. They have never failed to reveal the location of the
wand for me.
--------------

--------------
2.12 The Tomb of the High Kings

Please mention the effectiveness of using the 'E'ar cleaning
command as a way of not stumbling off of an ice bridge. Also,
'a'pplying the first aid skill works nicely.

Also, please mention that he will never summon help on his own
level, but if one leads him to another level, he will.
--------------

--------------
2.13.1 Shyssiryxius

> a deadly water breath attack that is capable of dealing circa 100 points of damage

It is capable of dealing ~400 points of damage. Sources of water breathing
will reduce the damage of this attack, regardless of what Soirana says.

She is also vulnerable to poison, which is in contrast to code-dived info,
so I think it is very important to mention that.

[Grey]

Potions of wonder confuse monsters? Amazing! Obviously has some very useful applications against bosses (or even cats early game).

[Soirana]

> written by me in particular] would not be included in anything
> that guidebook is trying transform into...

Soirana, I respect you to no end, but don't you think the GB should
be updated? There are a lot of questions about kinda basic stuff that
people ask here all the time. How to garden, that kind of stuff just
wasn't covered in the GB to my knowledge. The GB always gave
tips and strategy hints in the past, so why not give some more now?
Is it just the possibility of code-dived stuff that bugs you, or how I
mentioned getting -petr from gorgon corpse eating?


I have two reasons:
A) i do not get [and never got] where guidebook draws line between clear and bad info...
It clearly contains doubtfull info...
To be more exact if uyou include DL for dungeons why not include for items? or whole houeland data?
This sort of hipocracy is beyound my understanding.

B) main problem in my opinion was not lack of info but some basic mistakes... This seems to be getting even worse...
Well, fine for me, i have just deleted bookmark to guidebook page...


... and another:
that 'Food Preservation' increases corpse
production, but I think it's once at 60 and again at 90, and that
info is not code-dived.


The only not code dived info on that known for me [and keep in mind without published details] is mine research.
This is exactly one of cases of that i would like not being included in current rumour mill called guidebook.
If this boils on further i might simply go and delete somel game mechanics revealing posts both here and on brinkster...
You know i've done thing like that on smaller scale...



... last one...regardless of what Soirana says.


Leave me away from this enertainment, okay?

[Conundrum]

Wah, Gut! So much doubleposted information >_<

[mike]

I can't imagine that molochs and balors don't. [edit]Okay, apparently neither sees in darkness although they will fight back if you attack them first, good to know... I think some chaos monsters might too.. trying to remember what in the Mana Temple can hit in darkness.

No, you're quite right... all varieties of moloch and balor see in the dark. Simply didn't think of those.

[Molach]

1.2.1.2.1
"or provide a blessed stethoscope or potion of ultra healing "
Mabye this is implied by the sentence, but the potion is always blessed too.

"The first is healing wounded monsters with the Heal spell or potions of healing. "

Substitute with any healing spell.

I would add "The monster must not be damaged by the PC. Alarm trap or a pet plus a healing spell will allow a PC to receive however many potions as they want" Or something.

1.2.1.3
"New PCs with low strength can buy and carry around enough of his large rations to become strained, as this will train Strength over time" mabye?

Will do more later.

[warheart]

Coin throw attack start out with a range
of only 3, but at exp. level 10, it increases to 5, and increases further
with continued increases in exp. levels. I don't remember the exact
levels, sorry.

IIRC range increases by 2 every 10 levels.

[Silfir]

I don't think there's a reason to worry, Soirana. I think Andy is the last person anyone should suspect of being liable to adapt other people's works without consent.

If you're likely to become angry at the fact that the regular old Guidebook is going to be updated, and are unwilling to contribute to the accuracy of these additions, you might be happier not reading this thread at all.

(Incidentally, Guidebook link updated. Oops.)

[Maul]

I don't think there's a reason to worry, Soirana. I think Andy is the last person anyone should suspect of being liable to adapt other people's works without consent.

If you're likely to become angry at the fact that the regular old Guidebook is going to be updated, and are unwilling to contribute to the accuracy of these additions, you might be happier not reading this thread at all.

(Incidentally, Guidebook link updated. Oops.)

Don't feed the troll.

[gut]

> It clearly contains doubtfull info...

Maybe point out the doubtful info. Maybe point
to some tests that disprove it. Help make the
GB better.

> if uyou include DL for dungeons why not include for items?

No idea on that one, but maybe that info was
submitted forever ago, and was submitted as
not having been code dived. It seems the whole
roguelike community is somewhat on the honor
system in most of what they do. If someone
submitted the data as having been gathered
legitimately, then maybe it should be viewed
under the best possible light.

> This sort of hipocracy is beyound my understanding.

Maybe not hipocracy, but just the difference
between properly documented info, as opposed
to improperly documented info. I share your
oppinion that the dungeon level DL info is
code dived, but I wouldn't call anybody
names over it. It's just a game after all.

> main problem in my opinion was not lack of info but
> some basic mistakes... This seems to be getting even worse...

I'm pretty sure that the gorgon corpse stuff
was not incorperated in the GB : ) I'm pretty
sure that somewhere amongst the mass of info
I typed out, there were plenty of mistake fixes.
If you feel like I'm posting inacuracies, then
point to them.

> The only not code dived info on that known for
> me [and keep in mind without published details]
> is mine research.

I'm going by this post by Grey, and I remembered
reading this in his 'treasure hunter' post on rgra.

http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=1019&highlight=food+preservation+corpse+generation

>> I don't know of any exact quantisation of the skill's
>> effects, but when I was researching the effects of TH
>> I looked a little at the skill and found that the
>> difference between 50 and 60 skill level actually had
>> a big effect on corpse generation. I think you just
>> got incredibly unlucky - it happens sometimes.

> exactly one of cases of that i would like not being included

But since it's not code-dived, then shouldn't it be OK?

> Leave me away from this enertainment, okay?

I did test the water breathing thing before posting.
I was recieving ~350 damage with each case of being
'washed away' while I had no water breathing source.
I donned a few water breathing sources and never
took 200 damage. Yes, it was a brief test, and so
could be coincidence, but I have memories of testing
this in the past to the same conclusion.

> Wah, Gut! So much doubleposted information >_<

I can't help the 10,000 character limit.

> IIRC range increases by 2 every 10 levels.

IIRC you are exactly right, but I'm only 99% sure : )

> Don't feed the troll.

Soirana is not a troll. In fact he has a good point
about increased accuracy over increased data. I
really should take time to verify the stuff I'm
posting. I just only have so much time for this, and
I'm already going over it.

[Maul]

Soirana is not a troll. In fact he has a good point
about increased accuracy over increased data. I
really should take time to verify the stuff I'm
posting. I just only have so much time for this, and
I'm already going over it.

"I've deleted the GB bookmark"... "I'm going to delete my posts about game mechanics"... He's trying to make it sound like the GB won't ever be successful without him, and makes it clear that he doesn't care two hoots about the target audience. Of course, that's unnecessary, as we may already know he never wanted to help newbs, but it really sounds like the guidebook was ought to be made for *him*, the renowned ADOM veteran. Yeah, that's why I probably replied with that one line - I'm sick of how Soirana is thinking of introducing the "sarcastic veteran"-archetype* into these forums, which IMO really is unnecessary in every forum, especially in one which doesn't have such a big active community as some of today's games.

*If you don't know, for some reason, what I'm talking about, GameFAQs tends to have crateloads of these on the most popular multiplayer or multiplayer centric games' message boards, esp. MMORPGs. And that is one of the forumer types I'd place under the category "troll".

[Grey]

Please don't compare anyone on these forums to the twats on GameFAQs, least of all Soirana. I will remind you that he has published tonnes of testing and game info on here for the benefit of all, and written by far the best Tower guide to date. He may be terse sometimes, but don't go presuming nonsense about him because you don't like his attitude. He is extremely correct in that we shouldn't be shoving random rumours into the Guidebook - there's enough of those as is. Nothing should go in without proper testing.

With regards to the DL identifications, it's obviously code-dived stuff, but it was from before the "ban". There has never been any call to purge the Guidebook of this sort of info after the fact, and generally TB's call to stop code-diving was directed at any further work (which was rapidly leading towards a complete decompilation of the code - something Vladimir said he would have been quite able to do had he had the mind). Use of ADOMBot for testing is a bit sketchy. My main worry would be about reliability of information - a lot of ADOMBot changes produce unreliable results. I'd be happier with an in-game archmage.

[gut]

My definition of 'troll' is making posts just to try
to get a reaction. Soirana's writing style often
ends with phrases like 'goes to sob in corner', or
'goes to bang head on a wall'. That's just his
writing style.

[Soirana]

Maybe point out the doubtful info. Maybe point
to some tests that disprove it. Help make the
GB better.


Maybe not. I'd rather call myself troll.




gorgon...
If you feel like I'm posting inacuracies...
water breathing...

You taking way to personally. Saying about "gut's hallucinations" was just regular teasing we do on each other...

If you want on posted inacuraccies overall...
There was a guy posting about oil of rust removal and rust monsters.... Well, i would not call the result as nothing.... Leaving aside my impression of nerfed to hit and crits [never quantified], I never got any item rusting after using oil to *weaken* rust monster.
even after dooming char seriously.... Given fact how PoCC removes corrupting hits i'd say it is as certain as i can detect.

Well, again i do not keep track of things *community* knows. For me it is old known fact.

re: water breath - i do recall checking only single source of resistance...



But since it's not code-dived, then shouldn't it be OK?


IIRC, taking serious parts of Guidebook [well, IGB case and later requests] is considered not being okay... Why taking info inside guidebook should be okay if person clearly states he does not want this to happen?





"I've deleted the GB bookmark"... "I'm going to delete my posts about game mechanics"...


Was actually reffering to infamous "black post" on brinkster... As my attitude goes at least i did not called anyone lazy morrons this time....



really sounds like the guidebook was ought to be made for *him*, the renowned ADOM veteran.


Actually i do have something which used to be guidebook which was compiled with IGB info+houland + anything i know on my hard drive. I use that for my personal needs and check "guidebook" only when i need quote something.



it's obviously code-dived stuff, but it was from before the "ban".


It is very messy topic. I do know a lot of pre"ban" info which never made to "accepted knowledge". Well, again from what i've heard on IRC most people use IGB on regular basis.



ADOMBot changes produce unreliable results. I'd be happier with an in-game archmage.
Overall merging files in tmpdat folder is actually more reliable if you ask my opinion, just Bot is faster...

Ages ago i proposed giving save for anyone wanting to do some tests. never met a volunteer...

That proposal still stands. It is not botted char... Just resave from kill max EG challenge... has over 50 wishes and shitload of exchange pots in case you need more....


My definition of 'troll' is making posts just to try
to get a reaction.



Soirana is not a troll

I do troll in meaning i post in specific manner to get reaction sometimes... Ain't gonna stop anytime soon.

Overall it would be niceif you focus on topic instead of me...

[Sadface]

This is more of questioning an entry, but, under Oracle corpse effects,
it states that you'll get +6 LE and about +4 MA from it, but I only got
+3 LE from it. 23 - 26. My potential LE is about 35 - did I do something
wrong?

[meh]

Like many stat increases from corpses, it depends on the current value. Up to about 20 it's guaranteed, and above 30 it gets increasingly unlikely. The +6 simply means six attempts at increasing the stat. They can all fail or all succeed or anything in between.

[Sadface]

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up!

[Molach]

Hey this thread is about helping mr. Williams update his guidebook, so if anyone wants to chip in, that is fine. If we spot someone giving incorrect info, the community should probably just point it out, quickly. It is obviously gonna be mistakes here, as further code-diving is discouraged, but so be it. Testing are only that accurate.

Personally the Guidebook has been extremely helpful to me...I would have walked away from the game 6 years ago without it. (What, one can kick down locked doors? Aha. Also, reading spoilers ahead of time caught my interest). I still use it for occational reference, especially the monster list when I need to know if it safe to sac monsters as a N char (like dire wolf ok, wolf not)

I have a question about ethics as well - code diving is out, as I understand, but what about AdomSage-engineered tests?

I'll give an example:
Section 2.5.3.1 (Thrundrarr's quests)
"Slay a random creature. This can be a very annoying quest. Thrundarr can assign anything ranging from a goblin to a Ghost Lord."

I can pretty safely add this :"There is a rumon that if your PC has visited a dangerous dungeon level, then the quest monster can be a higher level creature, but testing by Molach the Mighty showed that PCs going straight to Dwarftown and PCs who visited Dwarven Halls level 2 got same types of monsters. The PC also has to be at least level 6 to get the quest"

This experiment did use save-scumming so it was basically the same character/clone who got the quests, but otherwise just regualar playing, However, a SAGE-rigged xperiment showed that the entry should in fact read. The level 6 requirement was not even save-scummed, just tested with a gnome and a troll, gnome needed 1437 xps and the troll 10177 xps, neither got quest on level 5, but both got it right after turning 6.

2.5.3.1
1) Slay a random creature. This can be a very annoying quest. Thrundarr can assign anything ranging from a goblin to a Ghost Lord, and the higher level of the PC, the higher potential level of the quest monster. A level 50 character got (Moloch? Balor? Greater Moloch? Don't recall) as quest monster. You must be level 6 to get the quest, which should not matter to most normal PCs.

Now this info was gained using AdomSage, by some player on this or the other forum (sorry don't remember who) I guess one could have tested higher exp. level vs. the first quest with regular playing, but that would really be a pain in the butt, especially as you ideally should not visit many different locations as the low-exp "standard" PC.

Items Danger levels are actually useful to know...there exits data about this, code-dived. Testing by regular playing should give most (at least non-rare items) levels, but be somewhat time-consuming....and why bother now that the truth is out...but using ADOM Sage I believe one could device methods to determine most items pretty fast. Mabye. Anyway, AoLS is level 2 and RoDS is level 8, this has at least been reversely-proved, or can be put in, mabye. This will enable the following update to this section;

2.14.1
"[...]Common methods of attempting to get an amulet of life saving include staying in the infinite dungeon until one is generated or draining every pool the PC has found in the hopes of obtaining a wish. A ring of djinni summoning may also be generated in the infinite dungeon, which provides a wish when blessed."

Adding the "known" info that RoDS are level 8 and ID item level is level/3...means that this is somewhat innaccurate. Something like this


"[...]Common methods of attempting to get an amulet of life saving include staying draining every pool the PC has found in the hopes of obtaining a wish, digging up the graves in the Griffyard, staying in dungeons of medium danger level (Coc level 8 or lower, but you have to be below dungeon level 24 in the ID to find a RoDS) to find the amulet or a RoDS, or dipping rings in blessed potions of exchange on D:8 in hope of transmuting it into a RoDS, or setting up a gremlin bomb. Gremlin bomb is basically a big room with a couple of water traps, where the PC lures in a gremlin or (more realistically) sets off a water trap with ctrl-t while wielding a fluff ball. Now there will be an unlimited number of gremlins to pickpocket and/or kill. Beware killing too many, as they will get tougher as your kill count goes up. Over 2000 kills make them mean. Some players let a pet do the killing, and only pickpocket the critters. This will keep them nice and low level. It can also be noted that gremlins do not see invisible, so an invisible PC using a bolt spell should not have much problems. Magic missile does not damage items. This method is by many players considered to be a scummy exploit of a game mechanic, but it is not cheating, as such."

More updates I can think off, on the top of my head:
2.5.6 (glod and smithing)
"[...]It is possible to kill Glod without making the rest of Dwarftown hostile, thus making his smithy available for free. One method of doing this involves using the greater daemon generated by Thrundarr's fifth quest. If the greater daemon is lured near Glod, it will kill Glod."

ADD

"If you plan on doing your smithing in dwarftown, and the dwarftown is on D:10 or D:11, it is advicable to read a (blessed) scroll of peace to reduce corruption while engaged in time-consuming smithing. There is a guaranteed scroll from ratling rebel (see section 2.2.3)"

And finally (for now)
0.14.16

"Treasure Hunter is generally accepted to be one of the most desirable (if not _the_ most desirable) talents, making Alert a populer Level 1 choice."

and

"[Treasure Hunter] Considered by many to be the best talent overall. Adds a chance for more monsters to drop items when killed. The quality of items is unaffected. Well worth the two prerequisites, in my opinion."

Hehe. Insert, if you dare, "However a growing cult of ADOM veterans have raised serious questions value of this talent, claiming it to merely be a talent of convenience and not worth passing up 3 other, potentially life-saving talents. They claim early-game survival is very negatively affected by this overpriced talent, pointing to all the other great sources of quality items that exist"

[_Ln_]

>There was a guy posting about oil of rust removal and rust monsters....
>Well, i would not call the result as nothing....
>Leaving aside my impression of nerfed to hit and crits [never quantified],
>I never got any item rusting after using oil to *weaken* rust monster.
>even after dooming char seriously....
>Given fact how PoCC removes corrupting hits i'd say it is as certain as i can detect.

Sorry for bringing up inaccurate info. I was looking just for changes in monsters' stats, that are revealed by blessed stethoscope and in this way rust monsters' stats do not change. I thought I stated that I was looking only at these differences, if not - sorry again. :(

[Andy Williams]

Is the pit bug mentioned in the GB? The one about covering a
pit with a regular blanket, in order to produce a different kind
of trap in unusual locations? I don't think that was code dived.

Forgot to mention something in the 'alignment' section.
There is a bug in the game that allows a player to attack
non-hostiles without an alignment hit. Just shoot a missile
past your intended target. This will still result in an
alignment penalty if you kill, say, a beggar, but you won't
get penalized for starting the fight.

OK, most of gut's stuff has been incorporated. I don't know about the pit bug, and I can't search these forums for it (three letter words). Simply dig a hole, cover it with a (plain only?) blanket, pick up the blanket and it has transformed into another trap?

I remember the business about "accidentally" attacking a nonhostile. Why would an alignment drop occur for killing a beggar "accidentally"?

[Andy Williams]

2.9.1 The first two levels

Perhaps mention the fact that this is the first guaranteed
instance of a corruption trap in the game. These can often
be exploited to gain highly prized corruptions such as
'astral planes'.
--------------

-----------
2.9.2.1 Rehetep

Please mention that the warning that Rehetep gives to alert
all the monsters on the level can be avoided. The warning is
only produced when the PC FIRST enters Rehetep's line of sight.
So if a PC teleports directly to Rehetep, he won't alert the
level to the PC's presence. You still have to fight the two
jackel demons though : (
-----------------

------------------
2.10 The Gremlin Cave

Maybe mention the gremlin bomb tactic. Highly scummy, I know,
but so many people ask about it...
-----------------

-----------------
2.11.2 The VDDL

> In practice, the easiest way to find the down staircase is to zap
> a wand of item detection

Please mention the effectiveness of uncursed scrolls of magic
mapping. They have never failed to reveal the location of the
wand for me.
--------------


2.9.1 What about Nonnak's lair? Surely there must be a corruption trap there?

2.9.2.1 I tried this in 1.0.0. Entered top level, all silent. Teleported directly next to Rehetep on his left, he sang out. What am I missing?

2.10 It is mentioned that it's a potentially endless source of pickpocketing. Are you talking about a full explanation with a pet doing the killing? Is the statement in the GB about "gremlins are not bad until the PC has killed thousands still true in 1.1.1?

2.11.2 Are you looking for the wand or the staircase with the scroll? Why uncursed and not blessed? Clearly there's something I don't know here.

[Sami]

2.11.2 Are you looking for the wand or the staircase with the scroll? Why uncursed and not blessed? Clearly there's something I don't know here.

I think the point is that it doesn't need to be blessed, uncursed has high enough probability to reveal either square in the room or at least one of the surrounding walls to locate the room.

[Necropassion]

I remember the business about "accidentally" attacking a nonhostile. Why would an alignment drop occur for killing a beggar "accidentally"?

Because there are some monsters that will always cause a drop (or gain) in alignment when killed, and killing beggars is considered evil by the game. As is killing blink dogs and white unicorns - in instances involving slaying these creatures of pure good the ADOM Gods doesn't take into consideration the fact that your thrown anvil was indeed intended for the wall behind the beggar rather than his interposing skull which you *accidentaly* happened to crush.

[Andy Williams]

Because there are some monsters that will always cause a drop (or gain) in alignment when killed, and killing beggars is considered evil by the game. As is killing blink dogs and white unicorns - in instances involving slaying these creatures of pure good the ADOM Gods doesn't take into consideration the fact that your thrown anvil was indeed intended for the wall behind the beggar rather than his interposing skull which you *accidentaly* happened to crush.

I thought this was determined solely by the alignment of the monster in question. Sure, killing blink dogs and white unicorns will cause an alignment drop, they're lawful. Beggars are neutral AFAIK. Is that incorrect?

[Andy Williams]

I think the point is that it doesn't need to be blessed, uncursed has high enough probability to reveal either square in the room or at least one of the surrounding walls to locate the room.

I thought perhaps an uncursed scroll of magic mapping is *guaranteed* to show where the down staircase is. If that is true I am unaware of it.

[Necropassion]

Wondrous are the ways of The Creator.
Yeah, I believe beggars are neutral, but I also believe it wouldn't be beyond TB to implement such a feature seeing as the deed of slaying a poor beggar is somewhat synonymous to being 'true evil' in most cultures.

BTW: It's great to see you taking up work on the GB again - keep at it!

[Andy Williams]

I'm fairly certain that all classes get haggling, first aid, and listening, not just those listed in section 0.1.1.

It may be worth including a section discussing the effects and costs of prayers.

The PC is only required to visit the pyramid and the maze for the first time during the specified level periods. Once the PC has visited those areas once, they may return at any level. This means that PCs should always have the opportunity to visit the pyramid, since they may simply enter at level 13, leave right away, and come back when they feel strong enough--even if that happens to be level 25.

On D50, I believe it is only necessary to kill the Balors on the level to ensure the gate remains closed.

[edit]: On a more extensive note, I would love to see the monster table include information such as which monsters see invisible, see in darkness, elemental resistances, and what types of slaying ammo they are vulnerable to.

Snipped the stuff that has been incorporated, thanks. Section 0.1.1 is not a comprehensive list of all skills, only the skills each race or class is trained in. This is mentioned in the text just above the tables.

Prayers, I agree. Will be quite a bit of work.

Re: pyramid, surely this can't be correct. Enter once at exp lvl 13 and it stays open all game? Can't be, unless I'm *really* misremembering.

D50 and balors. I have never tested this myself. Anyone confirm?

I like the monster table ideas. That table is going to get big. It has five fields already. Is it going to get ridiculous with four or five more? Or maybe make two tables?

[JellySlayer]

A few other things:

0.12.3 You write that "Vaults become more common" while the PC is cursed or doomed. I am almost positive that this is incorrect. For example, save-scummed characters will generally find the same dungeon features (although not always the same composition) on a newly spawned (non-ID) level, regardless of cursing/dooming, which strongly suggests that these features are pre-determined. I seem to recall reading that dungeon features are in fact determined that the start of the game, but I would assume this was code-mined or at very least unverifiable.

In the same section, you mention that Dooming increases food consumption, but testing doesn't seem to bear this out: it takes approximately 900 turns to reach "Hungry" status while walking upon immediately starting the game. If you retry the experiment, except first pray until doomed, the number of turns is the same. Dooming does increase the corruption rate, however.

CORRECTION: The Candle starsign gives 2 points of health every 12 turns. This is more than twice as good as maxed out healing skill.

[edit]Yes, the Pyramid text is correct. Otherwise you could leave the orbs there and never get them back... I've used this trick numerous times when I've found myself in need of a spare pickaxe or climbing set. Here's a screenshot of a level 37 necromancer I had kicking around that I brought into the pyramid.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Screenshot
------------------------------------------------------------------------------



###########
#.........# ############
# #.<.##.# #..#.......#
##.##...##.########.####.###.####
#..........^^^^(...^####.#......#
##################.^^....######.#
####.#########.#
#.##........# #
#.##.###.#### ####.#### ### ######
#.## #....# #........ #.# ..#.#
..# ####.### #.##########.# #.#(#
### #.^...# ######## #.#######.##.##########.#.#
#.###.###....&#37;.# #....*.##.....^...........#
#. #.....####(###.####.##.#############.###
.. #.....# #.....# #.##.### .....#
## #..@..# ###.### #......# .#####
#.....# ....^# ########
####### ######

Gilgamesh St:45 Le:48 Wi:37 Dx:38 To:38 Ch:28 Ap:14 Ma:35 Pe:41 C
DV/PV: 68/57 H: 558(558) P: 478(478) Exp: 37/6822283 PL1 LE: 1000
Satiated Berserk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Character Information
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gilgamesh St:45 Le:48 Wi:37 Dx:38 To:38 Ch:28 Ap:14 Ma:35 Pe:41
C
DV/PV: 68/57 H: 558(558) P: 478(478) Exp: 37/6822283 M: 169622

[Andy Williams]

A few other things:

0.12.3 You write that "Vaults become more common" while the PC is cursed or doomed. I am almost positive that this is incorrect. For example, save-scummed characters will generally find the same dungeon features (although not always the same composition) on a newly spawned (non-ID) level, regardless of cursing/dooming, which strongly suggests that these features are pre-determined. I seem to recall reading that dungeon features are in fact determined that the start of the game, but I would assume this was code-mined or at very least unverifiable.

In the same section, you mention that Dooming increases food consumption, but testing doesn't seem to bear this out: it takes approximately 900 turns to reach "Hungry" status while walking upon immediately starting the game. If you retry the experiment, except first pray until doomed, the number of turns is the same. Dooming does increase the corruption rate, however.

CORRECTION: The Candle starsign gives 2 points of health every 12 turns. This is more than twice as good as maxed out healing skill.

[edit]Yes, the Pyramid text is correct. Otherwise you could leave the orbs there and never get them back... I've used this trick numerous times when I've found myself in need of a spare pickaxe or climbing set.

The text re: dooming is out of date even with respect to the GB itself. *Greater* vaults are definitely decided at the start of the game, easily proven by savescumming. I can't recall about lesser vaults. The invariance of food consumption with dooming or cursing (and all other intrinsics including invisibility) was proven by Malte Helmert and is in Appendix G.

Will correct re: Candle.

I'm still having a hard time getting my mind around the Pyramid. I realize your point about the orbs. The pyramid stays open all game. So you can take on Rehetep at exp lvl 50? I know it stays open if you've defeated Rehetep. Or would the orbs jump back into your pack if you tried to leave them behind? Thinking out loud here.

[JellySlayer]

I'm still having a hard time getting my mind around the Pyramid. I realize your point about the orbs. The pyramid stays open all game. So you can take on Rehetep at exp lvl 50? I know it stays open if you've defeated Rehetep. Or would the orbs jump back into your pack if you tried to leave them behind? Thinking out loud here.

It may be that it only stays open once Rehetep is killed. I'll admit, I've never tested that scenario. I don't know about the orbs; teleportation of items is the normal way such things are dealt with. I could probably ADOMBot a character through the various hoops to test this in short order I suppose. I'll get back to you about this.

[Andy Williams]

It may be that it only stays open once Rehetep is killed. I'll admit, I've never tested that scenario. I don't know about the orbs; teleportation of items is the normal way such things are dealt with. I could probably ADOMBot a character through the various hoops to test this in short order I suppose. I'll get back to you about this.

I'm almost certain that it only stays open if Rehetep is killed. My problem with testing is that I've moved to 64-bit Windows. All my saves are in DOS-mode ADOM. No longer supported. So I either have to fire up an old machine or figure out how to get DOSBox working. I wasn't successful on my first and only attempt.

[JellySlayer]

I think you're right. I rolled a wizard, ADOMBotted him all spells, 99 in all stats, and fire immunity. Cleared the ToEF and got the fire orb at level 14. Dropped orb in pyramid, left and levelled to 18. Pyramid is now closed. The orb is not in my inventory. I would want to confirm this with a non-ADOMbotted character to be sure, but it looks like it may be worth noting that it appears that the orbs will be permanently lost if left in the pyramid after it closes...

[Andy Williams]

I think you're right. I rolled a wizard, ADOMBotted him all spells, 99 in all stats, and fire immunity. Cleared the ToEF and got the fire orb at level 14. Dropped orb in pyramid, left and levelled to 18. Pyramid is now closed. The orb is not in my inventory. I would want to confirm this with a non-ADOMbotted character to be sure, but it looks like it may be worth noting that it appears that the orbs will be permanently lost if left in the pyramid after it closes...

Very, very cool discovery. That is the first way I remember hearing of losing an orb since gamma 15 where monsters would not necessarily drop carried items when killed, including chaos orbs. I really expected it to jump back into the PC's pack.

[Harwin]

I think you're right. I rolled a wizard, ADOMBotted him all spells, 99 in all stats, and fire immunity. Cleared the ToEF and got the fire orb at level 14. Dropped orb in pyramid, left and levelled to 18. Pyramid is now closed. The orb is not in my inventory. I would want to confirm this with a non-ADOMbotted character to be sure, but it looks like it may be worth noting that it appears that the orbs will be permanently lost if left in the pyramid after it closes...

In theory this would be possible with the Minotaur Maze as well? I haven't tested the upper level limit myself, but according to the GB it has a max level. If you enter it, drop the orb, leave, and then achieve a level that is too high, would you also lose the orb?

[JellySlayer]

I don't see why it would be any different with the maze than the pyramid.

[mike]

You can also lose orbs if you go to one of the areas with wilderness-type borders (e.g. terinyo) and shoot them into the very edge of the screen. They'll remain on a square that cannot be stepped on.

[Grey]

Andy, you should still be able to use your old DOS saves under Adom Sage (which works under 64-bit Windows, thank god).

With regards to killing beggars being chaotic, there are certain enemies that are always chaotic to kill. The druid is one of them, in spite of the fact that he's neutral (and that completing his quest when lawful is chaotic). Some creatures are also extra chaotic to kill - unicorns and children for example.

At some point I should probably have a look at the Guidebook and point out many of the things from my skill assessment for bards that could go in. Unfortunately I'm away from home for summer and missing many of my self-made notes on ADOM, otherwise I'd contribute a lot more.

[Andy Williams]

Andy, you should still be able to use your old DOS saves under Adom Sage (which works under 64-bit Windows, thank god).

I think the first thing I'll try is DOSBox.


With regards to killing beggars being chaotic, there are certain enemies that are always chaotic to kill. The druid is one of them, in spite of the fact that he's neutral (and that completing his quest when lawful is chaotic). Some creatures are also extra chaotic to kill - unicorns and children for example.

Another field for the monster table.


At some point I should probably have a look at the Guidebook and point out many of the things from my skill assessment for bards that could go in. Unfortunately I'm away from home for summer and missing many of my self-made notes on ADOM, otherwise I'd contribute a lot more.

Send for them! :D

[3AM]

Andy,

I don't have anything to contribute to the Guidebook, but I wanted to express my appreciation for your work on it. It's an incredibly useful resource, and the amount of work that went into its creation was probably quite large. There seems to be several people who hold the GB and/or you in disdain. I don't understand why, nor do I care to. I appreciate the work you've put in, and the dedication in wanting to update it now.

Thanks, Andy.

[Conundrum]

I like the monster table ideas. That table is going to get big. It has five fields already. Is it going to get ridiculous with four or five more? Or maybe make two tables?

Quite a few of those fields could be added in while using minimal space, as simply a checkbox-type field.

[Gnoman]

In the races section, it might be useful to have a reminder that the hurthling's skill with rocks also applies to thrown clubs.

If you wish, I can send you my dosbox config, which works perfectly for ADOM.

[quik]

Some suggestions:

In the Apendix J - Monsters, it says that the Black Druid is inmune to elemental attacks. It should point out that it is vulnerable to acid.

Since the GB is a reference manual, I'd like to have hyperlinks to each sub-subsection, not just to the subsection.

It would be nice if the effects of sickness and starvation on the stats would be described in some part of the guide.

That's it. Thanks for your work, Andy. The guide has been very very useful for me.

[gut]

> What about Nonnak's lair? Surely there must be a corruption trap

To my knowledge, there is no guaranteed corruption trap there. Of
course there are many traps in Nonnak's lair, so the probability
of a corruption trap is pretty high. In any case, I rarely do
Nonnak before the Pyramid.

> 2.9.2.1 I tried this in 1.0.0. Entered top level, all silent. Teleported

That must be one of the many changes between versions 1.0.0 and 1.1.1.
I've done it dozens of times, but I re-tested just now anyway to make sure.
It works as advertised : )

> 2.10 Are you talking about a full explanation with a pet doing the killing?

Specifically, I meant the benefit of taking a fluff ball from the gremlin
cave, creating a water trap in a high danger level (like using the pit bug
in the upper part of the Griffyard), and benefitting rediculously. I have
to admit that I have never done this myself, regarding it as an extremely
overpowered option.

> Is the statement in the GB about "gremlins are not bad until the PC has
> killed thousands still true in 1.1.1?

Maybe the mark is lower now, but I never pick pockets at all, so I am not
the best source of info on that.

> 2.11.2 Are you looking for the wand or the staircase with the scroll?

Either one will let you know where to target your teleports. You have
infinite teleports available, due to being able to CTRL-t the traps there.
Actually, all you have to reveal is a lonely '#' sitting by itself in a
corner of the map, and your good to go.

> Why uncursed and not blessed? Clearly there's something I don't know here.

Nah, I was just too brief. Uncursed are more common is all, blessed are
of course magnificent if a PC already has one, but it's not worth it to
use a potion of holy water on one for this job. I can't absolutely guarantee
that it's a 100% sure thing, but I've done it soooo many times, and it's
never failed.

> D50 and balors. I have never tested this myself. Anyone confirm?

I can confirm, as, to my knowledge, I was the one who discovered it : )
Maybe I just discovered hot water though. It was for a speedrun attempt,
and I had to shave off as many game-turns as possible. I just thought that
whenever a PC closes both levers and tries to TP to the stairs, there is
that '@' message that pops up, telling you to try again. I thought maybe
that was only because the balors themselves can TP to the levers and
throw them before the PC can get away. So I killed only the balors, TP'd
to the stairs, and sure enough, the game counted it as a win. Nearly beat
the piety scummer with that one too, I finished in ~8000 turns and had a
rediculously high score, but was just ~1,000,000 points shy. Luckily,
Everiste came along and got a ~6000 turns victory and bumped the piety
scummer down to 4th, where he belonged : )

> I like the monster table ideas.

It would be handy of course, but there is already the monsterdex. I
think it would be nearly impossible to create a thorough monster table
without incorperating large amounts of code-dived info.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

It would be handy of course, but there is already the monsterdex. I
think it would be nearly impossible to create a thorough monster table
without incorperating large amounts of code-dived info.

Well, I personally would be happy if the table included the information about which monsters see in darkness and see invisible. It is extremely useful info, and obviously anyone can get it without code-diving.

[gut]

> 2.12 The Tomb of the High Kings

Maybe mention the possibility of using an ogre magi to
freeze a bridge for the PC. I know it seldom is needed,
but I've had to do it a few times, and only found out
about it kind of recently myself. I think that is
mentioned elsewhere in the guide though, but I just
don't remember for sure.

-------------------------
2.14.1 Saving Khelavaster

Maybe mention there's a decent chance of the game
crashing at this point in ADOM 1.1.1, and making a
backup of one's save file before chatting is a good
idea. It is not save-scumming if it is done only to
help prevent data loss.

-----------------
2.17 The Banshee

I've heard a rumor from credible sources that an amulet
of 'protection from undead' will reduce the effect of
the wail to ~`200 damage instead of insta-death. I can't
confirm though, as I've never done this myself.

There is a way to get past the Banshee without being
deaf though. I had never heard of the tactic before
doing it myself, so I think I discovered it. Could be
wrong though...

It is based on my observation that the Banshee's wail
has a limited radius of 4 squares, 3 diagonally, which
is easily noted in the animated forrest. The PC can
safely listen to her wail if she is beyond 4 squares
(3 diagonally). If she is out of the PC's line of sight,
the generated message is 'you hear a horrible unearthly
wail in the distance', and surprisingly, even if the
Banshee is *IN* the PC's LoS, the PC can also hum along
cheerfully to the tune of 'the Banshee wails her terrible
song!' just so long as she is beyond 4 squares (3 diagonally).

The PC needs a wand of digging, a wand of far slaying,
TP control, and on-demand TP. Just dig a diagonal tunnel
to the Banshee's room, zap the wand, wait until you see
her appear, then start retreating. As long as you NEVER
let her get within 4 spaces of you (3 diagonally),you are
100% safe. Once you have lured her far enough away from
the stairs, it's safe to TP in there. Careful though,
because if the player forgets that they have done this,
they may find a nasty surprise on their return trip : )

-------------
2.18 Darkforge
> It is not a location for low level PC

Now this is just trolling!
*kidding*

Seriously, I have made demos of exp. level 1 mindcrafters
TP raiding DF for the magnificent weapons and armor there.
Early game pool sipping is also a tempting thing. All PC's
can benefit from the assets of an early DF visit. You just
need TP control, on-demand TP, and a willingness to chance
an insta-death hit from a steel golem : )

-------------
2.18.2 Kherab's quests and their rewards
> The reward for this quest is the corrupting artifact amulet
> of raw steel.

The reward for Kherab's first quest of killing Guth is the
Shield, not the Amulet; Everiste and myself can confirm this
100% ; )

> The quest rewards are useful only because they are artifacts.

> They are too corrupting to be useful otherwise.

Not true! The Shield is one of the best, if not THE best
artifact in the entire game. In fact, considering how little
effort goes into acquiring it, I say it is the single best
artifact in existance. The ToEF's is the most difficult point
in the game, considering the PC's exp. level and item
restrictions, and the Shield of Amazingness (+2) [+18, +12]
{To+8} -pois =fire =ice, almost makes it a breeze. Sure, it
may give a corruption, but a PC that's doing the tower should
have some form of resistance by now, even if it's the lonely
scroll from the HMV.

It's true about the trade off between acquiring the Shield
and forefieting the white unicorn quest though : ( Still,
there are a lot of SoCR's in version 1.1.1. so I still
consider it a great option for me.
----------------

[vogonpoet]

Ogre magi are actually my favourite method with a melee PC for the skeletal king - a bit of patience with them and you can freeze the entire lake, making confusion less of a problem - I would rather do that than bizarrely clean my ears whilst under attack and standing on a tiny bridge.

Oh,aand I agree, a bit more love for the shield of raw steel in the GB would be cool.

[Moeba]

Clean your ears? :P I always use first aid, that is actually even useful when you got hit. Very nice ogre magi trick, I had problems with those piranhas quite some times

[Molach]

0.14.11 Undocumented character abilities

"There is a game bug in the Elementalist level 6 class power. They do not receive fire immunity. Very unfortunate"

You probably mean fire resistance, and THAT is not extremely unfortunate, as they (always?) tend to receive a fire resistance ring at startup. 6 quick test chars always got 1 fire resistance ring, in addition to 1 ring that seemed to be random. And could be fire resistance too.

[mike]

Re: darkness, I was thinking of compiling a convenient list of things that do see in the dark. Off the top of my head:

. . .Doesn't include uniques, and I may have missed some.

* ankheg
* cave lizard
* gremlin
* white unicorn (duh)
* all bats

[Sami]

How about adding more info on monsters which of them ignores PV or hits criticals. At least stone ooze and ratling duelist seems to target a vital spot on every hit (= ignores PV?).

[Andy Williams]

How about adding more info on monsters which of them ignores PV or hits criticals. At least stone ooze and ratling duelist seems to target a vital spot on every hit (= ignores PV?).

Stone ooze and ratling duelist are in. I think I'm pretty much caught up except for the stuff gut posted today. Let me know if anyone's specific contribution has been overlooked. It's a lot to keep track of.

Thanks.

[Moeba]

in The Arena it says there are four possible champion opponents, which gives the idea that all four have the same 1/4 chance of showing up. I wondered if it was coincidence that I nearly always have an ogre magi as opponent in the arena, so I did some testing:

50 times gives:
Bonk 7
Li-Han-Kay 11
Li-Hon-Kay 7
invisible Ogre Magi 6
Ripclaw 10
Spardakius 9

I was suspecting 20&#37; for each, counting Li-Han-Kay and Li-Hon-Kay as different; 50 times is too few though, but I'm too lazy for more tries; also it might be race-dependant or dependant on anything else. And of course a better test would be with see invisible ;)
This was a save-scummed human elementalist level 16.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I was suspecting 20% for each, counting Li-Han-Kay and Li-Hon-Kay as different; 50 times is too few though, but I'm too lazy for more tries; also it might be race-dependant or dependant on anything else. And of course a better test would be with see invisible ;)
This was a save-scummed human elementalist level 16.

I think it's class dependent. I often got the ogre magus when I played elementalists, but now that I play only wizards I tend to get Spardakis.

Anyway, of course, this is based on subjective observation (not on rigorous studies) so it may be biased.

[Harwin]

Stone ooze and ratling duelist are in. I think I'm pretty much caught up except for the stuff gut posted today. Let me know if anyone's specific contribution has been overlooked. It's a lot to keep track of.

Thanks.

The Ancient Karmic Wyrm is still listed as seeing invisible. Yes, it's minor, but he's a common wish target for the exact reason that he doesn't. :)

[mike]

How about adding more info on monsters which of them ignores PV or hits criticals. At least stone ooze and ratling duelist seems to target a vital spot on every hit (= ignores PV?).

+ green blob
giant rust monster
diamond golem
vapor rat
clawbug type insects
quickling king/queen?

[Andy Williams]

The Ancient Karmic Wyrm is still listed as seeing invisible. Yes, it's minor, but he's a common wish target for the exact reason that he doesn't. :)

Interesting. Yes, I did hold off on that deliberately, because I find the implications startling. Does this mean that if the PC emerges invisible from the BDC without killing Srraxxarrakex that Sharad-Waador allows the PC to walk away unscathed? S-W is so insistent that I had a hard time with that.

[Andy Williams]

Another item, not content related. How big an issue is it that some stuff doesn't display properly in Firefox 3.x? The <pre> ... </pre> sections flat out don't work in Firefox 3.x. I guess the browser is regarded as the buggiest release to date though.

[Andy Williams]

How about adding more info on monsters which of them ignores PV or hits criticals. At least stone ooze and ratling duelist seems to target a vital spot on every hit (= ignores PV?).

That question mark seems important to me. Do they hit critical every time or ignore PV? Ignore PV implies a "punches through your armor" message, does it not? While hit critical implies a "targets a vital spot" message?

[Conundrum]

Another item, not content related. How big an issue is it that some stuff doesn't display properly in Firefox 3.x? The <pre> ... </pre> sections flat out don't work in Firefox 3.x. I guess the browser is regarded as the buggiest release to date though.

The what sections? I use Firefox 3.x and have never had trouble viewing the GB (or so I thought). Except now the background seems to be missing D:

[Andy Williams]

The what sections? I use Firefox 3.x and have never had trouble viewing the GB (or so I thought). Except now the background seems to be missing D:

I got sick of looking at the background. I also found it hard to read after really getting into editing it again.

The <pre> problem in Firefox: load Dwarftown 2.5 - does the map display correctly? I was using Firefox on Linux and it definitely did not. Googling showed a lot of other complaints about <pre> tags.

[JellySlayer]

That question mark seems important to me. Do they hit critical every time or ignore PV? Ignore PV implies a "punches through your armor" message, does it not? While hit critical implies a "targets a vital spot" message?

Ratling duelists punch through armor every hit (or at least, very, very frequently). I don't know about stone ooze.

[Nezur]

> written by me in particular] would not be included in anything
> that guidebook is trying transform into...

Soirana, I respect you to no end, but don't you think the GB should
be updated? There are a lot of questions about kinda basic stuff that
people ask here all the time. How to garden, that kind of stuff just
wasn't covered in the GB to my knowledge. The GB always gave
tips and strategy hints in the past, so why not give some more now?
Is it just the possibility of code-dived stuff that bugs you, or how I
mentioned getting -petr from gorgon corpse eating? If you notice,
I didn't mention it in a way so as to represent it as fact, I typed:

"I remember someone once posting on RGRA that eating a gorgon corpse
while wearing an amulet of petrification resistance grants petrification
immunity. Never tried it myself though."

The following code-dived information concerning eating gorgons and petrification resistance is a part of an RGRA post containing tons of code-dived spoilers about corpse effects. It was also (probably) verified through in-game testing by the code-diver.

The spoiler:

If one doesn't already have a form of petrification
resistance, there's a very low luck-based chance
one will gain it by eating a gorgon corpse instead of
getting petrified.



Text included through editing below

In the thread named "piles o stuff and avoiding *crash*":


I seem to remember there is at least one artifact (justifier maybe? I don't remember for sure) that just shows up as a plain item type though.
Sword of Nonnak, elemental gauntlets, AMW, purifier, Wyrmlance, Far slayer, protector, and probably many more.

A handy list of artifacts whose unidentified names do not differ from ordinary items might be useful in the guidebook.

In alphabetic order:

ancient mummy wrapping
axe of the minotaur emperor
black rune-covered dagger "Needle"
black rune-covered dagger "Sting"
black tome of Alsophocus
elemental gauntlets
fine leather armor "Nature's Companion"
heavy crossbow "The Far Slayer"
medium obsidian shield "Protector"
rune-covered halberd "Wyrmlance"
rune-covered heavy mace "Purifier"
staff of the archmagi
sword of Nonnak

These come from the original guidebook and the quotation above. I don't think it's complete.

[Sami]

Stone oozes does not care about PV too much... http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php?t=1139

It looks like the only difference between taking a vital spot and punching through an armor is that you get the first message when you aren't wearing any armor or wearing some light armor and the second message otherwise (elven chain mail [10s], clothes [40s] and robe [60s] generated the first message every time but nature's companion [120s], leather armor [150s] and dragon scale mails [200-220s] gave the second message).
Wearing a shield seems to generate the puching through an armor message every time, even with a small eternium shield [24s]. Any boots (including iron boots [120s]) and any normal headgear [4-100s] (didn't try artifacts) seems to give the first message.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

The <pre> and </pre> tags have been a basic part of the HTML specifications from the beginning, for God's sake. From the times when you couldn't even have hovered links or table backgrounds.

If they don't work on Firefox 3, I would just advise people to get a decent browser. I mean, one that at least supports HTML.

[meh]

I had a look at the html files and it seems it's actually the <font> tag that causes problems. When I removed it, the map looked as it should.

[Jack the Ripper]

Just had a PC who had petrification resistance from wielding Trusted One (or the other sword that gives resistance to everything in the game) and ate a gorgon corpse that I'd previously sold to Waldenbrook, hoping that I'd be able to gain the intrinsic from eating the thing, once I'd found another source. It did NOT grant petrification resistance, neither did it kill me.

EDIT: Sorry, I hadn't thoroughly read everything that's been posted, just the first few pages, and the last few pages, and missed how this had already been signalled.

PS - It's nice to see the ADOM Community so active after TB created this forum ( albeit with a different crowd than the one at RGRA when I was lurking around there), since RGRA was slowly dying out.

[Silfir]

There are no ordinary items named "fine leather armor".

[Moeba]

...

2.8 The Mad Minstrel

He randomly drops corpses that correspond to the danger level
of the level he is on. In his own clearing, he will drop mainly
goblin, orc, and bat corpses. If one leads him a few steps over
to the BUGWIL level though, he will drop plenty of dragon and
giant corpses. Pretty safe, but at least one greater bug will
have to be killed first. That's not difficult though, as any
offfensive wand will work nicely.
...


But how do you get him out of his clearing? I tried it and he won't enter any square 2 or less squares from the borders...

[Nezur]

There are no ordinary items named "fine leather armor".

Are you absolutely sure? If that's true, the guidebook lists the unidentified name for that artifact incorrectly.



Andy, do you incorporate ADOMBot-aided research into the guidebook?

[Sami]

It's not possible or it's really unlikely to get petrification resistance by eating gorgon corpse. I tried that with level 1 hurthling bard total of 60 times:
20 times eating uncursed corpse and wearing blessed amulet of petrification resistance: no natural resistance gained.
20 times eating blessed corpse and wearing blessed amulet of petrification resistance: no natural resistance gained.
20 times eating blessed corpse, no petrification resistance from items: 20 deaths.

[Nezur]

But how do you get him out of his clearing? I tried it and he won't enter any square 2 or less squares from the borders...

He is able to enter at least the column and the line that are next to the border in the west and the north. By border I mean the area that you need to walk into in order to leave the area. I tested this.

EDIT: Oh, you mean the Mad Minstrel clearing. Sorry, I don't know why I immediately thought you were talking about the barbarian glade.


It's not possible or it's really unlikely to get petrification resistance by eating gorgon corpse. I tried that with level 1 hurthling bard total of 60 times:
20 times eating uncursed corpse and wearing blessed amulet of petrification resistance: no natural resistance gained.
20 times eating blessed corpse and wearing blessed amulet of petrification resistance: no natural resistance gained.
20 times eating blessed corpse, no petrification resistance from items: 20 deaths.

EDIT: Hid the information that refers to the gorgon spoiler because the original spoiler was hidden too...



If the code-dived info is correct, I think 60 goes is not enough.
I may test it later with the aid of automation software.

EDIT: I rechecked the RGRA thread, and the code-diver says the
chance is "still really low with all sorts of luckiness".

[Jack the Ripper]

Section 2.5.6 , about Glod. I just had a high-level gnome archer kill him using sulphur spit from the corruption. Teleporting him out of his shop works, btw. I then proceeded to try to make him follow me out of the village, but being invisible was a disadvantage, so I though I could try spitting him. He didn't become hostile towards me, didn't become aware of my location, just died(he did "scream in a rage" at each hit, but that was it.
Then some muscular dwarves got summoned, but they couldn't see me. The only other notable thing was how Waldenbrook became hostile, so I had to kill him. The villagers, the elder, the priest, none of these were affected by what I'd done. Thundarr even assigned me the final quest, the one to slay the demon, and he later thanked me after saving the game, telling me to go home. :-)

So there you have it, a bit of information related to Glod and something about the spit ability of drakelings and those corrupted properly.

[Conundrum]

The <pre> problem in Firefox: load Dwarftown 2.5 - does the map display correctly? I was using Firefox on Linux and it definitely did not. Googling showed a lot of other complaints about <pre> tags.

Hmm, well the reason I've never had problems with the maps seems to be that I've been using a different mirror of the GB or something.

http://derge.net/ADOM/adomgb-2-5.html <-- map works fine
http://adomgb.info/adomgb-2-5.html <-- map does not

[Grey]

The Guidebook has the unided names of a few artifacts listed wrongly. "Fine leather armour" and "rune-covered heavy mace" are the only two I'm sure of - in the game they will be unidentified as simply "leather armour" and "heavy mace", and won't get those prefixes until fully IDed. NC can only be noticed easily from its odd weight, Purifier cannot be noticed at all (so all heavy maces should be picked up and identified).

I don't know if it's worth noting anywhere about identifying artifacts by their colour on the ground. This is particularly useful if zapping a wand of item detection upon finding out there's a greater vault on the level. Some popular ones are yellow ~ (always bracers of war), green ' (Preserver), black [ shield (protector). In greater vaults you can often guess that a black ( is Executor, a brown [ is NC, green [ is RoR, green = is RoI, etc.

Perhaps of note is that the following are all of the random artifacts in the game, and thus are all of the possible precrowning gifts:

Executor
Skullcrusher
Purifier
Hammer of The Gods
Staff of the Archmagi
Soaker
Scorched Spear
Long Sting
Serpent's Bite
Wyrmlance
Hammerhead
Far Slayer
Whirlwind
Thunderstroke
Bracers of War
Ring of Immunity
Preserver
Protector
Black Tome
Nature's Companion
Robes of Resistance
IronFist
Crown of Leadership

It should be noted that at least 8 of these 23 would be considered fairly undesirable unless very low level. Thus going for a 2nd precrown after getting a good 1st precrown often leads to disappointment, especially considering the extra effort required. Also the list is even more abysmal for beastfighters, who may prefer not to waste their time on precrowning at all.

Minor GB update: The farmer level 18 class power to pick better herbs actually makes them pick more of the "better" type when farming a dual herb square - more stomafillia than stomacemptia, more pepper than burb, etc. Pretty useless that late in the game, but that's farmers for you.

I must say, I'm so happy that horrible background has finally gone :P Could maybe do with a general light grey colour in its place though (#B0B0B0 or so).

[Grey]

With regards to gorgon corpses, if an effect is so low as to be almost completely impossible to reproduce... should it even be listed? There is no practical reason to include it in the Guidebook, especially considering the circumstances required. There is simply no gameplay use to knowing that if you have a way of dealing with gorgons already *and* they drop a corpse *and* you get extremely lucky with it then you can gain an extra resistance which will only help you deal with other gorgons.

Far more useful is the knowledge gained from real gameplay testing: Gorgon breath will not affect you or has an extremely low chance of affecting you if you have high DV (60 or more seems to guarantee that you'll dodge it), meaning coward tactics are a must around them. Gorgon breath also has a range of 2 (always 2 in my experience), and so can be used to help deal with cats or difficult monsters. They also can't see invis or in darkness, and are usually easy enough to outrun if nothing gets in your way.

Regarding acid spit, I suppose I can add a few bits of knowledge about it. Acid spit as it says in the manual does (L/3)d6 + (L/2) damage (with a min of 2d6+2). This makes it extremely effective early game, and it still remains very effective as you level up. However it does not ignore PV, making it fairly useless for DarkForge for example. Still, it can couple nicely with invis (since it acts a bit like a bolt spell, not revealing your position), and can be used especially well on enemies with resistances to other attacks. Doppelgangers, karmic lizards, the black druid, and many other enemies can be taken down easily with a bit of spitting. With a mid level 20s character the ACW fell to 15 acid spits after being stunned. The range of acid spit is dependant on strength, and if you get it high enough (over 60 or so) then you can even outrange the Archmage's spells. Drakelings should never ever forget the power of the spit, and characters who get the breathing sulphur corruption should always keep it in mind too.

[Nezur]

With regards to gorgon corpses, if an effect is so low as to be almost completely impossible to reproduce... should it even be listed? There is no practical reason to include it in the Guidebook, especially considering the circumstances required. There is simply no gameplay use to knowing that if you have a way of dealing with gorgons already *and* they drop a corpse *and* you get extremely lucky with it then you can gain an extra resistance which will only help you deal with other gorgons.


People seemed to be uncertain so I decided to provide more information. This also helps prevent misinformation from being included in the guidebook.

It already states "Petrification resistance *IF* the PC is wearing an amulet of petrification resistance, otherwise kills the PC by petrification" in the "Monsters" appendix. That is incorrect according to the spoiler I posted.

[Grey]

Updates on ultra endings:

4.1 - Guidebook states that demon slaying stuff works on Andy. Should say that humanoid works too, and that blessing is recommended. Generally its advised to use missiles, not melee. Standing out of direct line means most of his attacks are useless, and obviously he has no chance to paralyse or stat drain you from a distance.

Should maybe mention that he often summons purple jellies or other chaos critters. Since spells are meant to make him faster it's generally best to have some crystals of fire or a wand of fireballs around to dispatch them.

4.2 - Chaos God ending is also the only special ending possible if you accidentally get crowned chaotic before level 45 (happened to me on my first victory). Under 4.2.1 the PC does *not* need to be wielding the Sceptre when killing Andy for the regular chaos god ending. In fact it's best to drop the bloody corrupting thing as soon as you enter the plane along with the other chaos artifacts.

4.3 - The difficulties of changing alignment are a little overstated these days. Even at level 50 it's easy to get back to N= by saccing single gold pieces at grey altars (with the right precautions of course). Getting to L+ is also very easy if you have a pet and a healing spell. It pays to think ahead with things, but it's really not uncommon for ultras to do this without major trouble. The "update 2002" stuff looks extremely antiquated now.

4.3.1.3.1 - Perhaps worth noting that the crumpled scroll is not waterproof, so if you don't have a waterproof blanket by this stage you may be in trouble. However if you identify it (just 'r'ead it) then you can use magical writing sets to scribe as many more crumpled scrolls as you want! Unfortunately you can only get one trident though...

Another little caveat is that if you want to get a UNE or UCG but don't want to deal with the corruption requirement, you can technically enter the chaos gate as a prospective ULE (crowned L+, no corruption necessary) and become a fallen champion whilst on the chaos plane. As long as you're N or C when killing Andy it doesn't matter if you're crowned or not. This is obviously a suboptimal method though...

A further important caveat is the "chaos wretch" ending. If you kill Andy and are not chaotic and are not wielding the trident of the red rooster then you won't get a UNE or ULE. Instead you get a message about energies flooding out of his corpse and overpowering you, turning you into a miserable and pathetic chaos wretch. Thus it's very important to remember to be wielding the trident when delivering the final blow to Andy (especially important to beastfighters for example). Otherwise you could get what is probably the worst ending possible in the game (yes, I'm still bitter :().

[Grey]

3.3 The Casino

It should definitely be added in that there are safe ways to get everything you want from the casino.

First is to gamble. With a girdle of greed and a heavy weight on the keyboard you can get everything you want. Worth noting that though the gambling takes place in a single turn you can get stunned by having a long gambling session (best to wear stun resistance items or pray afterwards). You can also get set to the Very Hungry status, though you won't starve to death from a long gambling session. Remember to bring food when playing the slots!

The big guard will block the stairs if you win. However usually if you play another round (separate turn) and *lose* then he will move away from the stairs. No need to teleport him.

Then, of course, there is the five finger discount. There are two known ways of angering the shopkeeper without summoning guards or getting yourself cursed. Firstly is ventriloquism - confusing the shopkeeper will make him hostile, but he won't alert the guards or curse you. Best to do this in darkness so he doesn't kill you the very next round though. The second method is using a wand of far slaying from a very far distance (about 15 squares or more). If it hits him then again he will become hostile without summons or curse. Both methods are still risky since the shopkeeper is difficult to deal with - it's best to grab all the items you need, anger the keeper, and then teleport straight to the stairs. I've not tested these methods with a lawful character, but with a neutral char both ways work to make him hostile, not summon guards, not make the other guards hostile or block the stairs, not curse and not cause any alignment change.

It might also be worth noting that for trolls attacking the shopkeeper is a great (though risky) way of getting quite a bit of xp.

[Grey]

3.6 The Cat Lord

Surprised you don't mention how to kill him...

Firstly it should be noted that the cat lord is a high xp monster. Killing cats may not be such a bad thing if you prefer a few million xp over the little ring.

The cat lord is vulnerable to poison, blinding, stunning, webs, paralysis, and humanoid slaying. However he is fast, and moves faster (as if he's wearing SLBs). He also tends to be invisible, so it's best to wear the AMW when entering his level.

If you want to melee him then you *need* to disable him. Wand of paralysis is great, though it tends to get shrugged a lot. He'll also shrug off webs, but then will get stuck in the webs themselves. Stunning bolts tend to get shrugged, but with enough attempts will stick. Arrows of darkness or thunder work great, as do throwing potions of blindness or cursed potions of invisibility. After disabling him start hammering hard with your favourite humanoid slayer till he falls. Keep a close eye in case he breaks out of the disability though, and keep a good healing source on standby. A few blasts from a wand of poison can help shorten the fight a bit.

To missile him I'd recommend getting him stuck in webs and peppering him full of humanoid slaying ammo that has been dipped in poison. It can be best to lure him to a different level so you can teleport around freely. That way you can fill a corridor with webs and keep teleporting to each end of it, shooting at him as he keeps getting stuck.

Bolts spells aren't greatly effective on him, though persistence may take him down eventually. Ball spells work beautifully though. You can even just disable him using one of the above methods and keep using a well charged wand of fireballs. He tends to panic fairly easily, in which case improved fireball can be used to great effect to take him down. In this case it's best to target the spell at a square next to him - if the centre of the explosion is aimed straight at him then he'll stop panicking and come back at you. Aim next to him and he'll stay cowering in a corner whilst you slowly roast him to death.

If you have killed cats and just want to avoid the fearsome cat lord then it may be worth luring him to another level so you can teleport around him (though it does mean having to put up with a round of attacks as you go up or down the stairs).

[Grey]

3.2 The Eternal Guardian

Killing him is not altogether pointless, since it gives a lot of xp. Some people deliberate farm the EG incarnations for levels. He takes a long time to kill, but since he's so slow you can easily use hit and run tactics. Humanoid slayers or lots of ball castings will eventually take him down.

I'd also change "a quick teleport" to "an immediate teleport" for passing him aggressively. Wait more than one turn and another guardian will appear and block the stairs, giving the PC twice the headache.

2.62.2 I only got 3 potions of gain attribute from the black unicorn once. It may be because I was NC at the time (though accepting the reward brought me down to C).

2.52.2 Malakai, though tough, is a regular chaos knight. He cannot see in darkness and is vulnerable to humanoid and demon slaying weapons.

2.23 The player must enter the stone circle within the very last hour of Darknight - ie, between the hours of 23:00 and 0:00. Repeatedly pressing > is bad advice, since you can go from 22:50 to 0:02, missing the window by a small margin. It's best to wear SLBs and walk in wilderness squares next to the stone circle with a very close eye on the clock and how much time each move takes so you can calculate your steps exactly.

2.23.1 Also worth noting that Keriax has one of the strongest confusing attacks in the game, regularly confusing high Wi PCs with confusion resistance. He is vulnerable to confusion himself though.

2.21.7 The Oracle can be safely dispatched with any missile weapon, since she can't move from her little island. However it's best to stand out of direct line to avoid her energy rays. The get the best benefit from her corpse bless it and have Le under 20. Also have a nearby altar.

2.19 The Tower of Eternal Flames - currently not working? I only get a blank page.

2.18.1 Kherab also has incredibly fast regen. He's not able to see invis, but the regen and bolt-shrugging make it difficult to take him down.

2.13 You can wear 1 blessed ring of the fish or 2 cursed rings to get full water protection. 1 blessed ring is quite handy wince you can equip it and then bless it for removal later. Swimming is not necessary, though I think it increases movement speed in the lair (which is handy for dealing with the monsters). Invisibility should be recommended in entering the lair, since the elementals and giant dragon turtles can be quite lethal otherwise, especially at low levels. Shissy is vulnerable to darkness, but will still panic and teleport away in darkness. She'll also frequently panic and attack back in darkness if cornered. The darkness thing is mostly useful for robbing the lair - darken the stairs and darkness the main lair (or the specific item you wish to steal). Pick up what you want and teleport the hell out of there.

[gut]

> he won't enter any square 2 or less squares from the borders...

It is due to my status as a mentally handicapped person that
I mention the tactic, but forgot to mention how to achieve it.
You must order a companion to attack him as he is close to
the map border. The PC then switched places with the pet, and
the MM will come to stand on the border. Careful with pet
type though, as if it's too weak it will die in one hit.

> Gorgon breath also has a range of 2 (always 2 in my experience),

Never thought of this before, but a gorgon + fluff ball + water
trap = unlimited wands. I wonder how abusable this would be.

[Andy Williams]

The Guidebook has the unided names of a few artifacts listed wrongly. "Fine leather armour" and "rune-covered heavy mace" are the only two I'm sure of - in the game they will be unidentified as simply "leather armour" and "heavy mace", and won't get those prefixes until fully IDed. NC can only be noticed easily from its odd weight, Purifier cannot be noticed at all (so all heavy maces should be picked up and identified).

When pointing out mistakes, it helps me immensely if you identify *where* in the GB the mistake is, so I don't have to search. NC's unid'd name is correct in Appendix A. Where is it wrong? Purifier has been corrected in Appendix B. Is it listed elsewhere incorrectly?

[Andy Williams]

Andy, do you incorporate ADOMBot-aided research into the guidebook?

Discover with ADOMBot, verify in a real game is best I think. Isn't there some doubt about whether things work exactly the same?

[Andy Williams]

Section 2.5.6 , about Glod. I just had a high-level gnome archer kill him using sulphur spit from the corruption. Teleporting him out of his shop works, btw. I then proceeded to try to make him follow me out of the village, but being invisible was a disadvantage, so I though I could try spitting him. He didn't become hostile towards me, didn't become aware of my location, just died(he did "scream in a rage" at each hit, but that was it.
Then some muscular dwarves got summoned, but they couldn't see me. The only other notable thing was how Waldenbrook became hostile, so I had to kill him. The villagers, the elder, the priest, none of these were affected by what I'd done. Thundarr even assigned me the final quest, the one to slay the demon, and he later thanked me after saving the game, telling me to go home. :-)

So there you have it, a bit of information related to Glod and something about the spit ability of drakelings and those corrupted properly.

Incorporated. Out of curiosity, if Waldenbrook was hostile while the rest of the town wasn't, were the townspeople attacking Waldenbrook?

[Jack the Ripper]

Incorporated. Out of curiosity, if Waldenbrook was hostile while the rest of the town wasn't, were the townspeople attacking Waldenbrook?

I didn't get a chance to notice, I just killed him, worried that he might be brutally powerful. Actually I'd been WAY too conservative with my archer, and he absolutely destroyed everything in his sight by that point. Waldy took something like 7-10 normal quarrels, IIRC.

[Andy Williams]

4.2 - Chaos God ending is also the only special ending possible if you accidentally get crowned chaotic before level 45 (happened to me on my first victory). Under 4.2.1 the PC does *not* need to be wielding the Sceptre when killing Andy for the regular chaos god ending. In fact it's best to drop the bloody corrupting thing as soon as you enter the plane along with the other chaos artifacts.

4.3 - The difficulties of changing alignment are a little overstated these days. Even at level 50 it's easy to get back to N= by saccing single gold pieces at grey altars (with the right precautions of course). Getting to L+ is also very easy if you have a pet and a healing spell. It pays to think ahead with things, but it's really not uncommon for ultras to do this without major trouble. The "update 2002" stuff looks extremely antiquated now.

A further important caveat is the "chaos wretch" ending. If you kill Andy and are not chaotic and are not wielding the trident of the red rooster then you won't get a UNE or ULE. Instead you get a message about energies flooding out of his corpse and overpowering you, turning you into a miserable and pathetic chaos wretch. Thus it's very important to remember to be wielding the trident when delivering the final blow to Andy (especially important to beastfighters for example). Otherwise you could get what is probably the worst ending possible in the game (yes, I'm still bitter :().

Is 45 the exp lvl req for the TotRR? You sure about the Sceptre? If so that's new at some point. At least in the gammas, killing AD without wielding the SoC resulted in the chaos wretch ending - I've done it.

4.3 is going to be completely rewritten.

[Jack the Ripper]

Appendix E should clearly state, IMHO, that potions of potential mana do *not* recharge wands when the wands are dipped. Similarly, this may be included in Section 0.14.1 , recharging wands.

[Sami]

Is 45 the exp lvl req for the TotRR? You sure about the Sceptre? If so that's new at some point. At least in the gammas, killing AD without wielding the SoC resulted in the chaos wretch ending - I've done it.

4.3 is going to be completely rewritten.

You need to be at least level 45 to get the quest from assassin prince, which is required to get into the scintillating cave where crumpled scroll is located.

[Andy Williams]

wand of far slaying

Is there something special about a wand of far slaying? You mention it here re: angering the Casino shopkeeper, gut mentioned it re: the Banshee. Is it just range for the shopkeeper? Would any old bolt work as well for the Banshee?

[Andy Williams]

You need to be at least level 45 to get the quest from assassin prince, which is required to get into the scintillating cave where crumpled scroll is located.

Yes, of course that's right, I wasn't thinking. I was thinking about a rumored exp lvl req for Khelavaster to appear in Terinyo, whether the PC has even begun the Filk quest, etc.

[Andy Williams]

Appendix E should clearly state, IMHO, that potions of potential mana do *not* recharge wands when the wands are dipped. Similarly, this may be included in Section 0.14.1 , recharging wands.

Like raw mana. Done.

[Sadface]

I know it's silly, but perhaps it should be noted (in section 3.8.1)
that the Ancient Stone Beast is a demon, and that demon slaying
ammo works wonders on him. As a priest with Sun's Messenger and
a few demon slaying arrows, I was able to kill it in only 6 or 7 shots.
MUCH easier than trying to bash it down, or scorch/bolt/ball it to death.

At least, I had assumed it was classified as a demon. Just about every
shot that hit took it down another injury level, regeneration included.

[Andy Williams]

the Ancient Stone Beast is a demon

The categorization of monsters was right at the code-dive point historically, so I never paid attention to it. I would guess that all the orb guardians are classified as demons based on what's been said recently about the SfB and ASB. Easy enough to test in-game. So should all orb guardians be listed as vulnerable to demon slaying weapons and ammo?

[gut]

Yes, we mention the wand of far slaying just because
of it's range, and a 1 PP cast is plenty.

[Andy Williams]

3.3 The Casino

There are two known ways of angering the shopkeeper without summoning guards or getting yourself cursed. Firstly is ventriloquism - confusing the shopkeeper will make him hostile, but he won't alert the guards or curse you. Best to do this in darkness so he doesn't kill you the very next round though. The second method is using a wand of far slaying from a very far distance (about 15 squares or more).

A pattern here? Ventriloquism seems to work this way (confused, hostile after confusion, no summoning or cursing) for everyone - ordinary shopkeepers, Thrundarr, Casino shopkeeper, others? The Casino shopkeeper recovers that fast from confusion? Thrundarr didn't historically. So does a wand of far slaying have similar general use?

[Andy Williams]

Yes, we mention the wand of far slaying just because
of it's range, and a 1 PP cast is plenty.

It's interesting that it doesn't seem to be perceived as an attack. As I remember, if one fires a bolt at any shopkeeper, you get all the negative consequences. Not so for a wand of far slaying apparently.

[JellySlayer]

On the issue of PoCC from Guth'Alak in 1.2.1.6, black unicorn corpses are also acceptable (ie not just the greater black unicorn). This is potentially exploitable because black unicorns can be found (rarely) in the (non-corrupting) wilderness.

[Andy Williams]

On the issue of PoCC from Guth'Alak in 1.2.1.6, black unicorn corpses are also acceptable

Done, thanks.

[Andy Williams]

New description of the Ventriloquism skill in 0.4. The aim is to avoid repeating that elsewhere re: shops, Casino, Thrundarr. Elsewhere?

[sterjs]

I've read that the figures for training with Garth (especially to very high stats) are grossly inaccurate. Anyone confirm/deny?

They are inaccurate(too low, esp. when a stat is at its potential max). There are accurate numbers in the improved guidebook, but they're probably code-dived.
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[Grey]

You sure about the Sceptre? If so that's new at some point. At least in the gammas, killing AD without wielding the SoC resulted in the chaos wretch ending - I've done it.


I'm certain - my first win was an OCG, and he dropped the sceptre upon entering the chaos plane. Man, I would have been so pissed off if I'd gotten a chaos wretch with him too... He was wearing Purifier and the Shield of Raw Steel as he slew Andy. That was in version 1.1.1.

Regarding ventriloquism, I meant to say that this tactic can indeed be used on other shopkeepers, and indeed on other people you want to kill in the likes of Terinyo and Dwarftown. Farmers can be safely killed this way for instance. Even if the skill isn't at 100 it can sometimes just cause the enemy to become hostile without confusion, but without other negative effects on other NPCs (this is why it can be dangerous to use on the casino shopkeeper). At 100 it's more reliable at causing confusion for quite a few rounds.

[sterjs]

I have some suggestions on the wishing suggestions section:

First, the part about Crystals of Knowledge is highly questionable. Holy Water is easy to obtain and Crystals of Knowledge do not raise learning past 25(I think). Potions of Learning raise it all the way to 99 afaik.

IMO, the suggestions for what to wish for could use some work. Here are my thoughts on some common wish candidates:

Wishing Suggestions

Amulet of Life Saving (Pre-Khelevaster) : If you're reasonably assured of reaching the endgame safely or insistent on an ultra ending, then wishing for an Amulet of Life Saving to rescue Khelevaster is the default choice. Six Scrolls of Chaos Resistance and a Spellbook of Teleport is a great return on investment for a wish.

Red Dragon Scale Mails : Top choice if you get an early wish and need to improve survival chances. Red Dragon Scale Mails have high PV and fire immunity. Fire immunity greatly eases the difficulty of the tower of eternal flames.

Pairs of Seven League Boots : A great choice at any point in the game. Opens up hit and run tactics as well as improved escapability. Vulnerable to equipment destruction of all kinds, so having multiple pairs is handy.

Eternium Tower Shields : Another solid choice for an early survival wish if you don't have a decent shield yet. High DV, decent PV and indestructible.

Eternium Plate Mails : Yet another solid early wish. Lack the fire immunity of Red Dragon Scale Mail, but are indestructible, smithable and hold their value longer. Occasionally they will possess useful egos like Carrying, Life, or Speed.

Concentration : Critical for a character who wants to use spellcasting.

Spellbooks of Acid Ball / Spellbooks of Rain of Sorrow : The best attack spell in the game. Few opponents are immune.

Find Weakness : Luxury wish. Greatly improves melee performance.

Eternium Spears: Luxury wish. Spears are the best default weapon because of their skill-based DV bonus in the game and have a chance at a great ego. Other weapon wishes like Phase Daggers, Maces of Destruction and Swords of Sharpness should generally be ignored in favor of the guaranteed Big Punch.

Scrolls of Chaos Resistance : If you are running low on chaos removal. Especially useful for ultra endings.
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[Jack the Ripper]

The categorization of monsters was right at the code-dive point historically, so I never paid attention to it. I would guess that all the orb guardians are classified as demons based on what's been said recently about the SfB and ASB. Easy enough to test in-game. So should all orb guardians be listed as vulnerable to demon slaying weapons and ammo?

Nuurag-Varn is just a humanoid, SfB is a demon, ASB is a demon, ACW is both a demon and a dragon (and not particularly vulnerable to any elemental attack, just immune to fire) , Master Summoner is just a humanoid.
These are all according to the MonsterDex, except for the thing about the ACW not being particularly vulnerable to cold, I've noticed that myself. You may as well lightning/acid/cold ball/bolt it, it doesn't make any difference, except for the thing shrugging off bolts a lot.

[Silfir]

I'd always go for red dragon scale mail instead of eternium plate mail. Eternium is scarcely less destructible than adamantium, and nowhere near "indestructible". Both have more than enough PV to keep any PC reasonably safe in the early- to midgame. There are no indestructible items save for artifacts, if my limited experience is to be trusted. So your very true statement about fire immunity and the Tower applies. If only the fire damage were the greatest concern there.

Concentration is only critical for spellcasting if you want to be good at it. If you only want to cast a couple of utility spells from time to time, you're fine without it. You can still read most spellbooks well enough with 100 Literacy.

Find Weakness is your prime choice for any melee PC who doesn't need that wish for anything else. In fact I'd only rate the AoLS and maybe the seven leagues higher. Not much of a "luxury" wish in my book.

I'm not sure I should second the wish recommendation for eternium spears there. Spears are the prime defensive choice, wishing for some of them and hoping for a magical affix that makes them killers has a very low expected return on investment. If I had a wish to spare like that, I'd not use it at all and save it for later. Even if it ends up being used for potions of youth after the game is finished. I always feel a stashed wish is much more valuable than a wasted one.

I do second that maces of destruction are inferior to Big Punch and good wish choices only in the very early game (swords of sharpness are inferior to maces of destruction to begin with). Can't say the same for the phase daggers; wishing for them is a fine choice if penetration weapons somehow constantly eluded you. At least the Earth Temple battles will turn out much easier if you have phase daggers. But there are several other things I'd rate higher in priority.

[Sami]

I'd add one of my favourite wishes in the list: (magical) writing sets for mass scroll creation. Writing higher grade scrolls will drop your mana (except if you are a monk) but getting ~15 scrolls of any type is usually well worth losing all your mana (it's the easiest stat to raise back anyway).

[sterjs]

IConcentration is only critical for spellcasting if you want to be good at it. If you only want to cast a couple of utility spells from time to time, you're fine without it. You can still read most spellbooks well enough with 100 Literacy.

Yeah, it should read Concentration is critical for offensive spellcasting.



Find Weakness is your prime choice for any melee PC who doesn't need that wish for anything else. In fact I'd only rate the AoLS and maybe the seven leagues higher. Not much of a "luxury" wish in my book.

If a PC doesn't need the wish for anything else, then it is a luxury wish, isn't it? Of course, I think it's certainly a prime wish candidate, but if you find an early pool wish or something like that, then I would rate other choices higher and I'd generally take 7LB before Find Weakness.


I'm not sure I should second the wish recommendation for eternium spears there. Spears are the prime defensive choice, wishing for some of them and hoping for a magical affix that makes them killers has a very low expected return on investment.

I essentially agree. I would never really use a wish on them unless I had a ton of wishes... perhaps a note could be made that wishing for weapons is generally a low priority.


Can't say the same for the phase daggers; wishing for them is a fine choice if penetration weapons somehow constantly eluded you. At least the Earth Temple battles will turn out much easier if you have phase daggers. But there are several other things I'd rate higher in priority.

I guess I'm lucky, but I've never needed a penetration weapon enough to consider using a wish on one. The Earth Temple is unthreatening if you lure the monsters to the stairs. It takes a little patience, but the ancient stone beast can be killed even with a modest melee attack.
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[Sami]

In 0.6.1.1 Exercising stats naturally you may emphasize the usefullness of book-casting spells to train mana (it doesn't waste potentially valuable castings of spells). Especially when walking in wilderness, remember to use up all your spare PP by book-casting some spells.



I guess I'm lucky, but I've never needed a penetration weapon enough to consider using a wish on one. The Earth Temple is unthreatening if you lure the monsters to the stairs. It takes a little patience, but the ancient stone beast can be killed even with a modest melee attack.

Ancient stone beast can be killed even by throwing only shields. ;)

[Nezur]

The Guidebook has the unided names of a few artifacts listed wrongly. "Fine leather armour" and "rune-covered heavy mace" are the only two I'm sure of - in the game they will be unidentified as simply "leather armour" and "heavy mace", and won't get those prefixes until fully IDed. NC can only be noticed easily from its odd weight, Purifier cannot be noticed at all (so all heavy maces should be picked up and identified).
When pointing out mistakes, it helps me immensely if you identify *where* in the GB the mistake is, so I don't have to search. NC's unid'd name is correct in Appendix A. Where is it wrong? Purifier has been corrected in Appendix B. Is it listed elsewhere incorrectly?

I think Grey was referring to my post (http://www.adom.de/forums/showpost.php?p=21065&postcount=133) which in turn was referring to Appendix A in which the unidentified name of the fine leather armor "Nature's Companion" was already correct ("leather armor") according to Grey. On this basis, he probably meant the appendices.


Discover with ADOMBot, verify in a real game is best I think. Isn't there some doubt about whether things work exactly the same?

Yes, someone said someone's ADOMBot-generated items didn't behave correctly, but I don't know how old ADOMBot version that was and I also don't know if that was just caused by weirdly configured item properties.

In most of my ADOMBot-aided tests, I've got all things I've needed with a single ADOMBot-generated Wand of Wishing. This method should lessen the chance of malfunctioning items. If you accept results of such tests, I will post them if I think I've got something worth adding in the guidebook.

[Andy Williams]

In most of my ADOMBot-aided tests, I've got all things I've needed with a single ADOMBot-generated Wand of Wishing. This method should lessen the chance of malfunctioning items. If you accept results of such tests, I will post them if I think I've got something worth adding in the guidebook.

By all means post them. I'm sure others will holler if there's a mistake. :)

[Andy Williams]

I think I'm caught up again with specific corrections/requests.

[3AM]

Appendix J:

Ratling warlord corpse currently reads a relatively small alignment drop.

I just ate one at N-, and went all the way to C. I'd say that's more than small.

[Andy Williams]

Ratling warlord corpse currently reads a relatively small alignment drop.

I just ate one at N-, and went all the way to C. I'd say that's more than small.

Changed, thanks.

[Gnoman]

In the spell list, you might want to include a notation that Magic Missile and Lightning Bolt spells bounce off walls. That killed me a few times when I was starting.

[meh]

If you're still wondering about the maps, then the best way to fix it is to

- Remove the <font> tag.
- Add the following to the css-file:

body {
font-family : Arial;
}
- Link the html-file to the css if it isn't already.

This has the advantage that it also makes it very simple to change the font if you want to do so at a later time.

[Andy Williams]

If you're still wondering about the maps, then the best way to fix it is to

- Remove the <font> tag.
- Add the following to the css-file:

body {
font-family : Arial;
}
- Link the html-file to the css if it isn't already.

This has the advantage that it also makes it very simple to change the font if you want to do so at a later time.

Some of the maps use <pre> ... </pre>, some use a <font> ... </font> where the font is monospaced. At least it's supposed to be monospaced. I'm going to have to go through and unify the approach to something that works in all browsers.

[Andy Williams]

In the spell list, you might want to include a notation that Magic Missile and Lightning Bolt spells bounce off walls. That killed me a few times when I was starting.

Added that. Of course the wands work the same way.

[meh]

What I posted was meant for the cases with <pre>. It seems that the earlier <font> somehow overrides it in Firefox.

[Sami]

Appendix J:

Ratling warlord corpse currently reads a relatively small alignment drop.

I just ate one at N-, and went all the way to C. I'd say that's more than small.

There seems to be some really weird formula to determinate how big the alignment drop is. It seems to depend only on what's your current alignment at the time you eat it.

Here's a small data set about it. As you can see, above 2000 stones the drop is bigger when your alignment is higher. Between about 2000-500 stones the drop is always 1000 stones and below that the alignment drop seems to make some kind of sawtooth.


Alignment before eating | Alignment drop
-------------------------+----------------
-4330 | 666
-3775 | 555
-3313 | 462
-2928 | 385
-1928 | 1000
-904 | 761
-470 | 588
-360 | 544
-114 | 356
-113 | 356
-31 | 329
204 | 318
431 | 227
887 | 1000
969 | 1000
1431 | 1000
1969 | 1000
2167 | 116
2296 | 129
2440 | 144
2599 | 159
2776 | 177
3266 | 226
3517 | 251
3796 | 279
4106 | 310
4106 | 310
4451 | 345
4451 | 345
4451 | 345
6000 | 400

[Andy Williams]

What I posted was meant for the cases with <pre>. It seems that the earlier <font> somehow overrides it in Firefox.

OK, I get it. Will try that.

That worked, thanks.

[johonka]

a few things, I've picked up over the years most of which are probably common knowledge:

Big bosses cannot be revived as slaves and this includes atleast:
Cat lord
master summoner(bummer, since this way he would have some point this late in the game; I've actually witnessed him being finished by a vicious vapor rat and that's lame if you ask me)
archmage
Filk

Trying results in a message "-foo- corpse turns to dust"

Minotaur emperor can be revived! He's fantastic cannon fodder for nasty archmage. He cannot be traded for pocc, by the way.

Chance on criticals stack, so with cow axe + 100 find weakness + rotm I get more criticals than regular hits. This makes eternal guardian an easy xp farm. With 32 str and dual rings of damage and berserking the weapon shows +109 to hit 3d20+78 to damage, when level 7 at two-handed weapons. This makes cow axe the second best weapon in the game, third if you're barbarian or necromancer since they both can receive vanquisher.

blessed cooked corpses can be revived but slaves appear critically damaged

Anyone can skip the griff quest by letting the priest die. This can be done with pets, slaves, greater daemon(quest), troll, giant etc. Basically anything that can kill him and is not the pc. This makes the whole town attack the assailant even if he is not in their line of sight! Thrundarr and garth will both be wondering towards the killer! Sadly, shopkeeper does not move, nor will enemies attack him.

Kill something guests can be completed by letting a slave or pet kill the target. Works atleast against kranach, druid, thrundarr, crime lord, xsxsxsxxssx, filk.

Starvation does not kill until strength has dropped to half of what it was when the starving message is shown. Thus there is -4 drop on getting starving status and from there on the stats will drop until str is 50% from where it started when starving status was reached.

Lvl 50 necromancers cannot be killed if equipment keeps toughness >10. If aols would save you, then this will also. When revived mana is also restored, thus making the archmage only second most impressive, being unkillable necromancer with infinite mana is much more badass!

No enemy is resistant to magic missile.

Skeletal kings do not see invisible.

Trying to cast magic prevents confused chars from wandering around. Casting Teleport while confused works as if you ate displacer beast corpse.

Keriax' melee does not corrupt and deals only 37-55 damage, he does have 5 hits and poisons though. All the nasties of chaos dragon are prevented by leading him into the tunnel and disabling with a blindness/confusion/invis potion.

[Andy Williams]

Lvl 50 necromancers cannot be killed if equipment keeps toughness >10. If aols would save you, then this will also. When revived mana is also restored, thus making the archmage only second most impressive, being unkillable necromancer with infinite mana is much more badass!

Thanks there is some very interesting stuff there. The manual states Necros lose half their To and half their HPs with each resurrection. Eventually HPs would be a fractional value = zero as far as the game is concerned. To >= 10 prevents that I guess?

At one time in the gamma days, a necro with the Staff of the Archmagi could create slaves indefinitely, since Ma would never go below 10. I don't know how TB coded around that, but it sounds like he forgot about the To + resurrection combination.

[Andy Williams]

Has anyone done a blessed greater identify of the Weird Tome? That is missing from the artifacts list.

[sterjs]

Couple things for the endgame section:

Earth Temple: Sometimes the Ancient Stone Beast doesn't leave a corpse. I think this happens if he dies in a wall, but someone else would need to confirm.

D49 : Potions of Uselessness must propel you in order to yield the gift.

D50: IME, it is not always possible to dig into the handle chambers(stone is too hard message).
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[Silfir]

Did you already note that the left half of D:50 is NOT guaranteed to be diggable? Very frustrating thing to discover when you've spent that wish on wands of destruction and find that it won't be so easy to get to the lever rooms after all. I've had undiggable left halves twice.

[Andy Williams]

D50: IME, it is not always possible to dig into the handle chambers(stone is too hard message).


Did you already note that the left half of D:50 is NOT guaranteed to be diggable?

Two in a row. I knew it but have never understood it, so it has stood until now. I added the word usually.

[mike]

Big bosses cannot be revived as slaves and this includes atleast:
Filk


Are you certain about him? I seem to recall making a filk zombie at one point (non-necromancer). I would test this right now, but... kind of a pain to do so.

[johonka]

I'm 90% sure, since I tried it recently. This was no try-stuff-with-savescumming-char, but I have 36 lvl necro that already f*ed his chances on ultra win(accidentally lost crown in wilderness) so I can test it shortly.

[warheart]

It is also possible to lure the Stone Giant Lord to Hawkslayer, who makes short work of him... though I'm not sure if he does this for chaotic PCs.

This is not true, sadly. Last time I tried, the Stone Giant Lord killed Hawkslayer easily, then killed my char (because he couldn't find the secret passages leading out of there, stupid pc).

[Jack the Ripper]

Section 0.9.5 , Dealing with annoying monsters

The jelly subsection doesn't state that hitting a jelly while unarmed but wearing gloves will (immediately) destroy the gloves. It's now happened to me twice in a couple of days using a monk. Jelly, wham, gloves destroyed, continue bashing, acid damage, bash again, acid again, dead jelly.

[meh]

It's also worth mentioning that being acid resistant (usually available from the ants in the puppy cave) will let you hit the jellies barehanded without taking damage from it.

[JellySlayer]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but the talent "Good Learner" gives an experience bonus of ~40% rather than the stated 2%. The "Great Learner" talent gives a net experience bonus of ~20%--ie. good learner alone is much better than both talents combined.

This is generally believed to be a bug.

[Andy Williams]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but the talent "Good Learner" gives an experience bonus of ~40% rather than the stated 2%. The "Great Learner" talent gives a net experience bonus of ~20%--ie. good learner alone is much better than both talents combined.

This is generally believed to be a bug.

I'll start a bug list in the Talents section. Good Learner, Skilled, any others.

I'm still pretty well caught up.

[furious_styles]

Has anyone done a blessed greater identify of the Weird Tome? That is missing from the artifacts list.


────────────────────────────── uncursed weird tome─────────────────────────────

It is an artifact.

When used in melee combat it grants a +0 bonus to hit and causes 1d2 points of
damage. When used as a missile it grants a +0 bonus to hit and causes 1d2
points of damage.



Not hugely enlightening.

[lotuskip]

A minor thing I just noticed: appendix J claims that giant ant worker corpse gives acid resistance. I don't think this is always (or even ever) true. The times I've tried, they just make you vomit. But warrior and queen corpses give resistance always.

[Sami]

On page 3 of this thread I posted some research about how quickly herb generations occur... And now by accident (happened to use the database to test other queries and looked at the results) I noticed that it's not at least truly geometrically distributed (and this explains why it was so unlikely to have generations on 2 consecutive turns).

It seems to be a lot more likely to have a herb generation on certain turns...
For example if the turns when generations occur are grouped by turn counter mod 200:


+----------+----------+
| turn&#37;200 | COUNT(*) |
+----------+----------+
| 0 | 181 |
| 1 | 28 |
| 2 | 31 |
| 3 | 16 |
| 4 | 43 |
| 5 | 24 |
| 6 | 34 |
| 7 | 21 |
| 8 | 58 |
| 9 | 12 |
| 10 | 58 |
| 11 | 21 |
| 12 | 37 |
| 13 | 14 |
| 14 | 42 |
| 15 | 41 |
| 16 | 58 |
| 17 | 27 |
| 18 | 29 |
| 19 | 13 |
| 20 | 81 |
| 21 | 19 |
| 22 | 32 |
| 23 | 21 |
| 24 | 75 |
| 25 | 38 |
| 26 | 34 |
| 27 | 20 |
| 28 | 59 |
| 29 | 19 |
| 30 | 60 |
| 31 | 16 |
| 32 | 89 |
| 33 | 21 |
| 34 | 23 |
| 35 | 36 |
| 36 | 58 |
| 37 | 18 |
| 38 | 49 |
| 39 | 26 |
| 40 | 137 |
| 41 | 16 |
| 42 | 41 |
| 43 | 19 |
| 44 | 51 |
| 45 | 32 |
| 46 | 37 |
| 47 | 20 |
| 48 | 67 |
| 49 | 27 |
| 50 | 70 |
| 51 | 13 |
| 52 | 46 |
| 53 | 18 |
| 54 | 37 |
| 55 | 34 |
| 56 | 85 |
| 57 | 15 |
| 58 | 32 |
| 59 | 19 |
| 60 | 88 |
| 61 | 17 |
| 62 | 27 |
| 63 | 15 |
| 64 | 84 |
| 65 | 35 |
| 66 | 39 |
| 67 | 21 |
| 68 | 51 |
| 69 | 17 |
| 70 | 59 |
| 71 | 18 |
| 72 | 91 |
| 73 | 25 |
| 74 | 38 |
| 75 | 40 |
| 76 | 42 |
| 77 | 14 |
| 78 | 26 |
| 79 | 22 |
| 80 | 135 |
| 81 | 15 |
| 82 | 38 |
| 83 | 19 |
| 84 | 54 |
| 85 | 22 |
| 86 | 37 |
| 87 | 19 |
| 88 | 77 |
| 89 | 25 |
| 90 | 61 |
| 91 | 21 |
| 92 | 41 |
| 93 | 16 |
| 94 | 33 |
| 95 | 38 |
| 96 | 84 |
| 97 | 22 |
| 98 | 29 |
| 99 | 14 |
| 100 | 119 |
| 101 | 14 |
| 102 | 27 |
| 103 | 13 |
| 104 | 71 |
| 105 | 37 |
| 106 | 34 |
| 107 | 20 |
| 108 | 52 |
| 109 | 21 |
| 110 | 71 |
| 111 | 18 |
| 112 | 72 |
| 113 | 18 |
| 114 | 31 |
| 115 | 34 |
| 116 | 38 |
| 117 | 15 |
| 118 | 39 |
| 119 | 18 |
| 120 | 122 |
| 121 | 8 |
| 122 | 39 |
| 123 | 17 |
| 124 | 41 |
| 125 | 50 |
| 126 | 31 |
| 127 | 21 |
| 128 | 68 |
| 129 | 20 |
| 130 | 78 |
| 131 | 23 |
| 132 | 54 |
| 133 | 19 |
| 134 | 33 |
| 135 | 30 |
| 136 | 65 |
| 137 | 15 |
| 138 | 30 |
| 139 | 27 |
| 140 | 102 |
| 141 | 19 |
| 142 | 39 |
| 143 | 25 |
| 144 | 74 |
| 145 | 31 |
| 146 | 39 |
| 147 | 16 |
| 148 | 49 |
| 149 | 20 |
| 150 | 85 |
| 151 | 20 |
| 152 | 64 |
| 153 | 24 |
| 154 | 30 |
| 155 | 26 |
| 156 | 60 |
| 157 | 15 |
| 158 | 35 |
| 159 | 16 |
| 160 | 149 |
| 161 | 18 |
| 162 | 36 |
| 163 | 26 |
| 164 | 61 |
| 165 | 30 |
| 166 | 31 |
| 167 | 11 |
| 168 | 76 |
| 169 | 19 |
| 170 | 66 |
| 171 | 17 |
| 172 | 45 |
| 173 | 17 |
| 174 | 27 |
| 175 | 37 |
| 176 | 82 |
| 177 | 25 |
| 178 | 27 |
| 179 | 11 |
| 180 | 85 |
| 181 | 21 |
| 182 | 29 |
| 183 | 19 |
| 184 | 87 |
| 185 | 34 |
| 186 | 44 |
| 187 | 19 |
| 188 | 60 |
| 189 | 18 |
| 190 | 75 |
| 191 | 18 |
| 192 | 81 |
| 193 | 21 |
| 194 | 33 |
| 195 | 24 |
| 196 | 48 |
| 197 | 15 |
| 198 | 34 |
| 199 | 9 |
+----------+----------+


If there were a constant chance for a herb generation on every turn, these should be quite equally distributed... But it's definitely not very equally distributed. :P
There are clearly shown a huge peak on every 200 turns, a major peak on every 40 turns and other peaks on every 20/10/4 turns. Still I'm not sure if the period is 200, longer or if there's any period at all...

http://www.students.tut.fi/~maki36/adom/herbgenerationturns.txt It simply contains every turn when a herb generation occured (and these are in order where they were inserted).

Edit: Somehow I have a feeling that it has something to do with primes... Maybe it's more likely to get a herb generation on turns where turn counter is divisible by more prime factors? If it's so, it should be most unlikely to have a herb generation on turn that's a prime.
The only 2 numbers that occurs 3 times in dataset are 227520 and 189000 and both of them have 10 prime factors. :P

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Edit: Somehow I have a feeling that it has something to do with primes... Maybe it's more likely to get a herb generation on turns where turn counter is divisible by more prime factors? If it's so, it should be most unlikely to have a herb generation on turn that's a prime.
The only 2 numbers that occurs 3 times in dataset are 227520 and 189000 and both of them have 10 prime factors. :P

Yeah, it may very well be related to the number of divisors, since you have arranged the numbers modulo 200, and the ones that get a larger count are those multiples of 2, 4, 10, 20... i.e. the divisors of 200.

Try to arrange the numbers modulo 49 instead, and let's see if we get large counts on the multiples of 7. (I'd do it myself but I have no time right now).

[Al-Khwarizmi]

This is just speculation, but I think a plausible model that could explain these numbers is the following:

* First, after each herb update, you roll a die. We know that TB likes dice. I don't know the kind of die, but let's suppose that it's 1d20, for example. We call the obtained number T, the "checking period" for herb generation.

* Every T turns, there is a check with a given probability P of herbs being updated. On the turn where herbs are updated, we re-roll P for the next generation.

This could account for these patterns in the data, because turns with many divisors in the 1-20 range would be more likely to appear, as they would be checked for more possible values of T (the first roll) than turns with few divisors in that range.

[Sami]

The highest value seemed to be always on 0 (mod x) with every x I tried (tried with x = 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 23, 41, 49, 64 and 97).

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Hmm, I think what I just said doesn't work because it would apply if the time elapsed from each generation to the next followed this distribution. Not the absolute turn count at each update which is what you have actually collected.

Anyway if with any prime number you get a maximum of 0, even with values as large as 97, it seems to me that probably the random factor here is not additive, it must have some multiplications in it. What puzzles me is that this factor seems to be calculated relative to absolute turn count. It seems strange given that the game only cares about the level you're in.

[meh]

The highest value seemed to be always on 0 (mod x) with every x I tried (tried with x = 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 23, 41, 49, 64 and 97).

I made a quick script to check, and 81 is the first one where 0 is not the most common.

[Sami]

Yep... there 0 has 250 hits and 27 happens to have 251. :)

[meh]

I think I've figured out how this works now.

Each turn, a random number n is selected from 1 to 1000 inclusive. If the turn count is divisible by n, then the herbs grow.

This gets very close to the overall frequency, as well as the distribution between even and odd turn counts. I haven't checked further than that, but it looks promising. Why it's done in such an overly complicated way, I do not know.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Yeah, your theory sounds perfectly plausible.

As you say, it's overly complicated, but it seems to explain the data, an I think any other theory explaining the data will be more complicated than that (as it has to depend on absolute turn count and have some multiplication or factoring into it at the least).

[Andy Williams]

────────────────────────────── uncursed weird tome─────────────────────────────

It is an artifact.

When used in melee combat it grants a +0 bonus to hit and causes 1d2 points of
damage. When used as a missile it grants a +0 bonus to hit and causes 1d2
points of damage.



Not hugely enlightening.

I finally got it last night and blessed greater ID'd it. My results were the same except -4 bonus to hit. I suppose that could have something to do with the PC.

[mike]

Something I would like to point out for the GB, as I've done actual testing:

People often believe generating Keethrax at a low level and coming back later is a wise idea because he will stay at whatever level he's at when the PC generated him. This actual isn't true. Starting at clvl 11, Keethrax and Yriggs gain 1 level for every level the PC has. So at clvl 20 they're level 11, clvl 30 level 21, etc. Basically, they adjust in power similar to molochs, but unlike in earlier versions, no message is given for this behavior.

[Andy Williams]

Interesting. Yes, I did hold off on that deliberately, because I find the implications startling. Does this mean that if the PC emerges invisible from the BDC without killing Srraxxarrakex that Sharad-Waador allows the PC to walk away unscathed? S-W is so insistent that I had a hard time with that.

The answer to this, BTW, is "no"; no surprise there. S-W knows if an invisible PC leaves the BDC without killing Srraxxarkex. He's apparently using something other than sight. Although the PC can simply run away if the PC is fast enough and close the door to his room. S-W needs the see invisible intrinsic and the ability to smash doors. :)

[meh]

One strategy that I think is worth mentioning in the guidebook is training strength in Munxip's shop. You don't even have to pay for things that you carry around inside the shop, and picking up something that you haven't paid for puts the shopkeeper at the door, so nobody will disturb you. Waiting for thousands of turns while strained! does use up a lot of food, but the shop is very affordable, especially if you've saved the carpenter.

[Jack the Ripper]

I've just taken a L1 gnome wizard to HoleInTheWall for his first kill. He killed a mugger, then an outlaw came after him. Took PC to the top-left corner of the map, was adjacent to both the non-hostile Shriek AND the hostile outlaw. Didn't think I would be able to leave, but tried anyway. To my surprise, I managed, and both of them followed me. I thought the outlaw may have become non-hostile, in which case he would've immediately left me ( I know neutral SMC critters do that, exit with you then immediately leave)

So I arrive in Terinyo again, this time with the outlaw and Shriek. I immediately hear a shout of 'Yipyiaieye', whatever Tywat says when he's taken someplace which has outlaws. The outlaw starts killing goodwives, and keeps following me, I run round a building, hoping Tywat will show up to save the day, the outlaw kills another goodwife, I'm between Rynt's room and the house to its left, and, surprise-surprise, Rynt shows up and start bashing the outlaw. Tywat exits the house next to Rynt's hut, and, in-between them, they finish off the outlaw.

I never got to talk to Tywat before the outlaw was dead, to see if he'd give me a 'deputy badge'. I've talked to him now, but he just keeps telling me to stop Kranach. Rynt gives the normal, after-talking-to-druid-first message. Shriek keeps offering keys.Anyway, it was interesting to still leave the location whilst under attack, never got any attack message in the wilderness, and see Rynt exiting his hut. I guess it can now be used as a useful place for item storage, if I have the proper key...

This probably needs more testing before being incorporated in the sections about Terinyo, Holeinthewall, and item storage: 1.2.1. , 1.2.2. and 0.14.8.

[Epythic]

I guess it can now be used as a useful place for item storage, if I have the proper key...

Not a very useful place, so far away from the CoC.

And before that you usually dont have too many items...

[Jack the Ripper]

Not a very useful place, so far away from the CoC.

And before that you usually dont have too many items...

I was thinking along the lines of using it before going on an ID-(scum)dive, for whatever reason you might be doing that. Looking for wish for AoLS for Khelly, ring of ice for ToEF, Thundarr 1st quest monster ( once got a werewolf lord, and in the CoC it could only show up on levels beneath the dying Khelly, so ID all the way) . If you get loads of stuff and want to hoard them back to the CoC eventually using SoA (but only have limited castings of the thing) then you can just hoard in the elder's hut. Of course, you can always use the exact square you arrive on in both Terinyo and Holeinthewall.

The main bit of the possible update was the NPC's behaviour, which I'd never seen mentioned anywhere before, and being able to leave despite being under attack, yet not losing the outlaw on the way...

[Ascaron]

I've just taken a L1 gnome wizard to HoleInTheWall for his first kill. He killed a mugger, then an outlaw came after him. Took PC to the top-left corner of the map, was adjacent to both the non-hostile Shriek AND the hostile outlaw. Didn't think I would be able to leave, but tried anyway. To my surprise, I managed, and both of them followed me. I thought the outlaw may have become non-hostile, in which case he would've immediately left me ( I know neutral SMC critters do that, exit with you then immediately leave)

So I arrive in Terinyo again, this time with the outlaw and Shriek. I immediately hear a shout of 'Yipyiaieye', whatever Tywat says when he's taken someplace which has outlaws. The outlaw starts killing goodwives, and keeps following me, I run round a building, hoping Tywat will show up to save the day, the outlaw kills another goodwife, I'm between Rynt's room and the house to its left, and, surprise-surprise, Rynt shows up and start bashing the outlaw. Tywat exits the house next to Rynt's hut, and, in-between them, they finish off the outlaw.

I never got to talk to Tywat before the outlaw was dead, to see if he'd give me a 'deputy badge'. I've talked to him now, but he just keeps telling me to stop Kranach. Rynt gives the normal, after-talking-to-druid-first message. Shriek keeps offering keys.Anyway, it was interesting to still leave the location whilst under attack, never got any attack message in the wilderness, and see Rynt exiting his hut. I guess it can now be used as a useful place for item storage, if I have the proper key...

This probably needs more testing before being incorporated in the sections about Terinyo, Holeinthewall, and item storage: 1.2.1. , 1.2.2. and 0.14.8.

Something similar happened to me the other week.
I decided to go to Lawenilothehl for my first kill, but first I thought I'd stop off in Terinyo and read my spellbooks.

I got distracted, and next thing I knew I was in the Druid Dungeon, and a Goblin was whacking me repeatedly with whatever it uses as a weapon.
I knew you couldn't leave a dungeon with a hostile, but I tried anyway. And managed it...

And what's ever weirder, when I came back to Terinyo the lil guy had vanished.

Confusing...

[Andy Williams]

The main bit of the possible update was the NPC's behaviour, which I'd never seen mentioned anywhere before, and being able to leave despite being under attack, yet not losing the outlaw on the way...


Something similar happened to me the other week. ... I knew you couldn't leave a dungeon with a hostile, but I tried anyway. And managed it...

I agree the bit about leaving a location while under attack is very significant. How to do it reproducibly is the question... ?

[sterjs]

Section 1.2.3.2.1

In any case, the bottom of the Unremarkable Dungeon, level 7 or 8, contains two up staircases. One of the staircases leads to the High Mountain Village

Having done the UD many times now, I feel safe in saying that the upstairs to the HMV is always on UD8, which is always the bottom level.
________
SC2 REPLAYS (http://screplays.com/replays)

[Andy Williams]

Having done the UD many times now, I feel safe in saying that the upstairs to the HMV is always on UD8, which is always the bottom level.

Thanks, that has been changed. Once again, I believe I am caught up on specific changes. Post your update if I'm mistaken. A new compilation has just been uploaded.

[Jack the Ripper]

I agree the bit about leaving a location while under attack is very significant. How to do it reproducibly is the question... ?

I've also noticed that you can't leave a wilderness square if a hostile monster is next to you, even if it isn't attacking (because you have plunged the place into darkness-only did this with spell, so far, haven't tried crystals and scrolls, but they should work the same). Monsters tend to nonetheless stick close to a moving PC, and this means you can't exit the place as quickly as you'd like.

[Sami]

Appendix D - Wands: Wand of knocking does not work same way as knock spell. Instead it zaps a "knock bolt" which will knock every door on it's way. The knock bolt doesn't bounce or go through walls and it has finite range.
Also wand of knocking does not open unlocked doors (but spell does).

[Molach]

1.2.2.4 Skriek

"Skriek is a ratling found in Lawenilothehl. He sells keys. The prices seem exorbitant, but they can save a PC's life. Note that Skriek becomes hostile if the PC kills Hotzenplotz, one of Tywat Pare's quests."

Try "Skriek is a ratling found in Lawenilothehl. He sells keys, for the exorbitant price of 500 gold + 30 gold for every levelup. (y = 470 + 30x where x is PC level). Note that Skriek becomes hostile if the PC kills Hotzenplotz, one of Tywat Pare's quests. Skriek can be lured away from the bandit village, for example to Terinyo, where he will sell keys even if Hotzenplotz is killed by the PC."

Hm. A bit long. I tested the formula only up to level 11, have no old PCs lying about. Anyway, for all my old PCs Shriek would very likely be dead.

EDIT: Skriek can even be lured back to bandit village later, after Hotz is killed, and not be aggro. The Keys seemed to be totally random, one got a heap of 3 tiny keys with same status, other different status (dunno blessed or cursed) , and one even got a rusty key. For chars that can't count on getting the "magic lock" spell, a set of keys are useful in addition to saving your life (or 7lbs) from that exploding-rune door. When I (used to) set up the Gremling bomb (TM), being able to lock them away was useful, both as a quick way to neutralize them, and also if I ever needed to leave and come back to harvest them some more. Lock them in, later unlock and continue carnage.

[Molach]

"A minor thing I just noticed: appendix J claims that giant ant worker corpse gives acid resistance. I don't think this is always (or even ever) true. The times I've tried, they just make you vomit. But warrior and queen corpses give resistance always."

It certainly CAN give. Can't vouch for always though.

"A giant ant WORKER corpse is lying here (120s). You start to consume the giant ant worker corpse. You are done eating the giant ant corpse. Arrgh! This vile stuff makes you throw up! Your stomach tingles."

[Ascaron]

1.2.2.4 Skriek


Try "Skriek is a ratling found in Lawenilothehl. He sells keys, for the exorbitant price of 500 gold + 30 gold for every levelup. (y = 470 + 30x where x is PC level). Note that Skriek becomes hostile if the PC kills Hotzenplotz, one of Tywat Pare's quests. Skriek can be lured away from the bandit village, for example to Terinyo, where he will sell keys even if Hotzenplotz is killed by the PC."

How come he's offering to sell me a key for 250gp?

[Molach]

I was about to say "good question" and then "he doesn't, you're just testing me" but then it hit me. I, being male, always play male characters unless I have to take a totally random one.

So the real answer is "because that ratling gives at least 50&#37; discount to females!" That old charmer.

"He sells keys, for the exorbitant price of 500 gold + 30 gold for every levelup to males and 250 + 5 gold to females."

Or probably better with just "exorbitant prices to males and manageable prices to females"

[sterjs]

Re: Section 2.11

I suggest that the Assassin's Cave should be emphasized as an early/early-mid game destination. A mention of the cave to the following effect "A PC with magic mapping or item detection should consider a detour to the Assassin's Cave to obtain the guaranteed wand of teleportation." I also suggest that the Assassin's Cave section be located earlier than the Barbarian Glade section.
________
Toyota motor manufacturing alabama history (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Manufacturing_Alabama)

[Maul]

...and with teleport control. If the char doesn't have it, it doesn't matter at all if you know where it is, unless you have digging.

Funny, I've never known that thing about Skriek. I always thought he gives better prices to chaotics, actually. Isn't that the same thing though?:p

[Sami]

0.4.3 Training skills:
Survival is trained even if it is not used. I think simply walking in wilderness trains this skill.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Section 2.4 says: "Bottom line: *never* bring sis into the ID".

I think using "never" here is a bit of an overstatement. I regularly bring sis into the ID with my wizards with Strength of Atlas, and not only I haven't ever had any problems with that, but the replicating effect is quite desirable as I get back from the ID with a lot of sacrificial fodder. I have also taken sis into the ID with other chars sometimes (without Strength of Atlas) and it's OK if you don't dive too deep and keep a close eye on them.

I would say: "Bottom line: never bring sis into the ID unless you have plenty of excess carrying capacity (for example, as provided with the Strength of Atlas spell)". Or something like that.

[Ascaron]

Section 2.4 says: "Bottom line: *never* bring sis into the ID".

I think using "never" here is a bit of an overstatement. I regularly bring sis into the ID with my wizards with Strength of Atlas, and not only I haven't ever had any problems with that, but the replicating effect is quite desirable as I get back from the ID with a lot of sacrificial fodder. I have also taken sis into the ID with other chars sometimes (without Strength of Atlas) and it's OK if you don't dive too deep and keep a close eye on them.

I would say: "Bottom line: never bring sis into the ID unless you have plenty of excess carrying capacity (for example, as provided with the Strength of Atlas spell)". Or something like that.

Or a Blessed Girdle of greed, 100m GP, and Beast of Burden.

Yay for (near) unlimited carrying capacity!

[vogonpoet]

Yay for "the green hag thingy mumbles some crazy shit, your blessed girdle of greed glows black" and "ha ha, you just stepped on a fireball trap, your tank-like PC shall suffer no ill-effects, however, guess which piece of armour has burnt away"

[Jack the Ripper]

Section 2.4 says: "Bottom line: *never* bring sis into the ID".

I think using "never" here is a bit of an overstatement. I regularly bring sis into the ID with my wizards with Strength of Atlas, and not only I haven't ever had any problems with that, but the replicating effect is quite desirable as I get back from the ID with a lot of sacrificial fodder. I have also taken sis into the ID with other chars sometimes (without Strength of Atlas) and it's OK if you don't dive too deep and keep a close eye on them.

I would say: "Bottom line: never bring sis into the ID unless you have plenty of excess carrying capacity (for example, as provided with the Strength of Atlas spell)". Or something like that.

Or sell them for gold in Waldenbrook's and then use that for a (pre)crown. Which is faster, by the way?. In the ID you can always just read a blessed scroll of identify and drop all the dodgy stuff you've been picking up (studded leather armour, shell armour, thick furs, rations). I always pick up everything I find in there, so that when in need of carrying capacity, I can start dropping the useless ones. That moment is also a good warning that it's time to take notice of the si pile in your backpack and perhaps head back up.

[Grey]

0.4.3 Training skills:
Survival is trained even if it is not used. I think simply walking in wilderness trains this skill.

It is used for avoiding wilderness encounters, which is why walking across the wilderness trains it.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Which is faster, by the way?

This is one of my long-standing doubts. I usually sell half and directly sac the other half, so that at least I don't get the worst deal. But it would be nice if someone knew which is better (and a nice GB addition, too).

[warheart]

I usually check what price shopkeepers offer to me. If it isn't good, then I sacrifice them, if not, I sell them and sac the money.

[Sami]

Appendix J - Monsters:
Quickling bard (Filk) casts also teleportation and curses items.

[Andy Williams]

Re: Section 2.11

I suggest that the Assassin's Cave should be emphasized as an early/early-mid game destination. A mention of the cave to the following effect "A PC with magic mapping or item detection should consider a detour to the Assassin's Cave to obtain the guaranteed wand of teleportation." I also suggest that the Assassin's Cave section be located earlier than the Barbarian Glade section.

I had to make some arbitrary decisions as to what early, mid and late means. Early is east of the wilderness river. Mid is before the wall of flames. Late is after the wall of flames. The order is pretty much irrelevant.

Caught up with the rest.

[meh]

A small addition to appendix J:

Eating minotaur corpses trains perception. In my experience, this is often enough to get a stat increase at low levels.

[johonka]

on the altar section there is said that small sacrifices move alignment towards the altar. I tested this a bit and noticed no difference between 1 gp and 100 except that with 100gp the altar will change alignment at some point.

You can probably get a lvl 50 char with C alignment into L with one altar if 1gp is sacced repeatedly, I haven't tried this though.

Getting from C- to L+ would be very simple, even with lvl 50 char, by just saccing 1gp until L and then whipping your char from L to L+. I've whipped chars from N- to L+ quite a few times and it's quite an easy way to get the proper alignment for ULE.

EDIT: Strength can be trained to 24 with -any- frost giant corpse and probably also with fire giant(king?) and stone giant lord. Hill giants can only train str to 18 if i remember right. Can someone verify this?

[Maul]

Except that altars often convert after low, low amounts of gold at that point. Really low.

[Necropassion]

Strength can go as high as 19 by eating humble ogres, so I believe hill giants should be able to take you into the lower-mid 20's.

[mike]

You can probably get a lvl 50 char with C alignment into L with one altar if 1gp is sacced repeatedly, I haven't tried this though.


I've tried and found it so frustrating that I gave up.

Elone did some testing on this a while ago. I think he concluded that altars have their own 'alignment points', so that if saccing 3k gold will convert an altar, saccing 1 gold 3k times will also convert it.

[Grey]

That was purely a supposition, no real testing in support of it.

I've always found that using a grey altar to get to NC and then a white altar to get to LN is perfectly reliable when using 1gp per sac. Never had a conversion with 1gp using this method. As for the final step to L+, healing drowning pets is best, but whipping is good too if you have the right tools.

[gut]

> Elone did some testing on this a while ago. I think he concluded

she

[gut]

I start this session with a bit of random stuff that just pops into my mind
from time to time. Appologies if I have already mentioned these, or if
they're already in the GB. Feel free to ignore most if not all of the stuff
I've typed out. It got a little more long-winded than I intended : )

---------------
The PC's range of sight seems to be effected by the time of day, on the
wilderness maps at least. In the morning (which apparantly begins at
6h), the PC sees further, and in the evening (which apparantly begins
at 22h) the PC's sight is limited to 2 squares. The farsight spell seems
to negate this.

If a PC's PV is below 4, they will suffer corresponding damage from
kicking walls and statues.

Dungeon generation has a few peculiarities that may be worth mentioning.
Almost all rooms generated on any level will have an odd number of floor
spaces available. To my knowledge, the only exception to this is the very
rare random shop room. They are capable of being generated with an even
number of available floor spaces, and this causes the 'dig' algorithm in the
game to be unable to connect them to the rest of the map. The only way
to reach these shops is by tunneling. Believe it or not, this info is not
code dived, but instead, it is the result of players such as myself nearly
going crazy because of this situation. I believe Elone was the one to finally
connect the dots.

There are also room configurations that have ~90% chance of having
a very nearby staircase. This is immediately noticable upon entering a
room, and I noticed it while on some of my ID stair-hopping adventures.
If you would be interested in including such info in the GB, just say so
and I will type some ascii pictures.

I seem to remember someone saying that monsters tamed in the underwater
cave can leave with the PC and breath air. This is probably a game bug.

No PC can tame a pet if it already has 3 pets on that level. One must lead
pets to a different level, drop them off, and return to tame more.

I re-read the herbs section again, and realized that this info is already
there, but in a bit of a cryptic layout. I'll leave it up to you to determine
whether it needs fixing, but I didn't understand it from reading the GB,
and can think of at least one other experienced player that didn't get it
either: Herbs are always generated on the same lines, regardless of
dungeon level. Meaning that if the player uses the 'l'ook command, and
moves the cursor to the topmost line, that would always be a stoma
square (if the PC could reach that square, which they can't). Moving the
line down two spaces reaches the line that dungeon floor squares are
available, and that square is always morgia.
-------------

2.18 Darkforge

> Steel golems will shrug off many lightning attacks, but can eventually
> be killed this way.

Maybe mention TP raiding DF in this section, even if the PC plans to kill
the golems, it's still often helpful to do it while wielding an eternium two-
hander of devastation : ) Another good tip is to teleport into the pool room,
and use the water squares as barriers if they are configured properly. This
can help avoid those risky critical hits. Also maybe mention that monster
generation can be controled in darkforge by leaving the last legion of
golems alone until after you are done with your business. I have noticed
that the steel horrors tend to critically hit the PC much harder than the
golems do. In any case, you don't want to have to contend with golems or
horrors while your in the middle of pool sipping.
----------

2.18.1 Kherab

> He is quite tough, with hitpoints numbering in the hundreds and a
> powerful melee attack.

He regenerates, he's immune to fire, and sees in the dark. He is more
easily killed if the water squares in the DF pool room are arranged nicely.
Poison works nicely, but it's hard to get him paralyzedbecause he's pretty
good at shrugging off bolts.

> He holds two items necessary for smithing: a
> hammer and an anvil. He is the source of two quests outlined below.

Eternium hammer, a crossbow, and some eternium quarrels.
-----------------

2.19 The Tower of Eternal Flames

> Two guaranteed examples are the elemental gauntlets (resistance) and
> the Crown of Science

The Torc and RotHK's give -fire, and the Shield of Raw Steel gives =fire.

> the bad luck it generates causes fireproof blankets and rings of ice to
> fail much more often

There is a bug in 1.1.1 that causes blankets to last longer when doomed.

> There are several other nonguaranteed artifacts which grant resistance
...
> worth remembering that artifacts are indestructible and so cannot be >

damaged by the heat

This kinda implies that -fire rings might be damaged. To my knowledge,
they can't be damaged by fire. Also, I'm pretty sure that armor and
weapons with the prefix 'red' are also impervious to heat.

>If a PC must wear items vulnerable to fire, a blessed ring of ice

Maybe clarify that RoI's will also protect items in the pack.

> If the PC is doomed or cursed
...
> fireproof blankets seem to disintegrate much more readily

Again, the game bug.

> praying on the top level will result in a pickaxe gift from the PC's god

The PC's piety level must be high for this to happen. How high, I can't
remember 100%, but I think it's 'very close'. Oh, and I'm 99.9% sure
that the PC can't be doomed or cursed either.

> invisibility is very, very desirable in the Fire Temple

As is darkness. The only temple monsters that see in darkness are fire
demons and the ACW. It is most useful for fighting the elementals,
and it's prolly best to re-light the area before tackling the ACW.
--------------------

2.19.1 The Ancient Chaos Wyrm

> It has a fire breath attack

Indeed, but it seems to me that he hardly ever uses it.

> is able to cast confusion and an energy ray.

The energy ray can only be cast in a straight line, like a PC's bolt spell.
This means that standing out of a direct line of him and shooting missiles,
or bouncing bolt spells can lead to an easy victory. This was the strategy
I used for my 'fling the bling' victories.

The energy ray has a maximum range of 13 squares, so using the farsight
spell and sniping from afar is a rare, but safe tactic.

Also, he won't fire an energy ray through another monster, so hostile meat

shields are the best defense. He won't fire through a non-hostile either, but
he will kill them to get to the PC. Still, it gives a use for a wand of monster
creation or the summon monsters spell. He can use confusion attacks as
soon as the PC enters his LoS, but only when the PC is in his LoS. Ducking
behind a door or wall works fine, but meat shields do nothing.

Here are my thoughts on the best strategy against the ACW:
1. Kill the elementals in darkness for exp. points.
2. Awaken the ACW with a bolt spell, or wand zap.
3. Retreat to the previously dug corridor.
4. Kill the monsters, but leave one as a meat shield, or make your own.
5. When the ACW appears, zap stun/paralyze rays at him until one takes.
6. Kill buffer monsters and approach the ACW.
7. Hit the ACW with a disabling potion, as they are 100% effective.
8. Hit the ACW with a PoCC if available.
9. Attack, and use the Water Orb/Elemental Gauntlet for healing if hit.

> The ACW is vulnerable to cold attacks

Nope. He's not particularly vulnerable to cold. Frost bolt is actually the
worst spell to use against him, as it kills your meat shields more quickly,
thus opening the PC to energy rays. Acid works best, as it's the most
powerful bolt spell.

> and dragon slaying ammo

and demon.
-------------

2.20.1 The Minotaur Maze
> The mazes are heavily trapped.

Please mention the importance of NOT taking one's climbing set into
the maze. In fact, I usually drop all of my vulnerable equipment on
the stairs before going in there.

A bit of mostly useless info here, but maybe worth including.
Minotaurs often panic when 'severly wounded' and run away. This can be
useful for PC's. Minotaurs will never set off traps unless they are in a state
of panic, so it's possible to use them strategically to clear a path for the PC.
I can't say that minotaurs are 100% guaranteed to set off every trap they
step on, but I can't recall ever seeing one miss. Also, whenever I encounter
a hidden wall, I drop a coin on both sides of it. This helps to keep track of
what path the PC has taken and is great for when you need to backtrack.
Only useful for when I actually walk the maze though, and that's been a
while.
----------------

2.20.1.1 The Minotaur Emperor

> minotaur mages which are able to cast confusion. When the Minotaur
> Emperor is killed,

This guy has killed many PC's, so maybe mention some strategies for him.
Stun ray works near perfectly against the mages, and is always my first
attack. As for the Emperor, I like webs, teleportation, and missiles. I never
melee the Emperor under any condition.
----------------

[gut]

2.21.3 Ratling guardians

> They seem to be flavor elements more than anything else and play no
> real role in the plot of the game.

They can be used to strategically rob the shop. They are two of only three
monsters in the game that behave in a particularly strange way, the other
is Yergius. They are motionless, and will let the PC swap places with them.
This strategy is really only worthwhile if the PC has no means of
teleportation, and no potions of invis, or Leggot sees invisible too quickly.

Place a ratling near the doorway, gather the shop items, repeatedly drop
them and pick them up until the shopkeeper doesn't block the doorway
(this can take many tries, and being fast helps), stand in the doorway,
and swap places with the ratling. An alarm sounds, and the PC will be
cursed if it's not chaoticly aligned. Just kill or outrun the summoned thugs,
which the PC should be able to do at this point in the game. Leggot won't
kill the ratling to get at you, and many thugs will be trapped in his shop
as well, they will just look on angrily as you leave : ) If one wants to keep

Leggot for future sales, then you can still lead the ratlings to any other
shops in the game.
---------------

2.22.2.1 The Ghost Librarian

> The Ghost Librarian is nonhostile and plays no role in the game

He blesses the PC if given a scroll or book.

> PC must have Stealth at 100 and spend at least 2000 turns

I think the turns must occasionally be somewhat over 2000. I think
vogonpoet can confirm this : )
------------------

2.23.1 Keriax

> He is able to breathe bolts including corrupting bolts, confuses the PC

Wands of stun/paralyze and buffer monsters are nice.
----------------

2.24 The Quickling Tree

> Quicklings fall fairly easily in melee, with missile weapons or using magic.

They don't see in darkness or invis, except for royalty.
--------------------

2.25 The Infinite Dungeon

> The ID has some unique characteristics: shops, altars and pools are
> never generated. Every dungeon level is randomly generated, so leaving
> a level and reentering it results in a completely new dungeon level.

The ID is a bigger game factor than just that... yes, I'm mainly talking about
stair hopping : ) It may be controversial to some, but it's just a scummy
(grinding) tactic like any other, and not as game-breaking as some.
It's one of the things I often point out to new players on the forums,
because I think a player should feel free to use anything that's not a
bug to help them get their first win. Here are some strategies for using
the ID:

Stair hopping is the process of repeatedly ascending and descending a
single staircase in the ID, for the purpose of generating hordes of items in
the continuously generated rooms. Items generated on the ID's floors will
be of a danger level equal to 1/3 of the ID's dungeon level. That means only
DL1 items will be generated on ID levels 1-3. On ID levels 4-6, DL2 items
can be generated, and DL3 items can be generated on ID levels 7-10. This
applies to dipping items into potions of raw chaos and exchange as well. This
does not apply to guaranteed drops, like eternium gear from chaos warriors.
Also, it seems that this does not always apply to monster generation either.
I don't know if any of the above info was ever discovered with code diving,

but regardless, I discovered most of it myself, just through extensive stair
hopping.

Benefits of stair hopping include: An easy way to acquire spellbooks, as they
are all DL1, and thus available on ID levels 1-3. An easy way to acquire
extra DV/PV points for the early game, as shields, hats, gauntlets, boots,
etc... can sometimes have nice stats. An easy source of teleport control
(actually the only guaranteed source of TP control in the game), as blink
dogs can be found after ID 4 (sometimes earlier). An easy way to aquire
potions and scrolls that can save a PC's life, and deal with bosses.

It should be noted that all of the above tactics can be used by just exploring
the levels, and is considered somewhat less scummy by many players, for
reasons that escape me. Indeed there are other non-stair-hoppy uses for the
ID as well. Such as increasing the PC's experience level, while maintaining
complete control over the chance to generate artifacts. Artifacts will never
be generated on the floor of *any* ID level, and the only monsters (to my
knowledge) that are capable of dropping artifacts when killed, are dragons
(not the baby kind, but ancients are fine) and wyrms. It is interesting to
note, that if dragons are killed in the ID, and a dropped artifact is not
collected, it will still jump into the PC's pack upon leaving the level. Nice : )
If one is interested in pre/post crowning, this offers a way to keep the PC's
exp level in proper relation to their 'artifacts generated' level. There is even
the possibility to achieve exp. level 50 in the ID before precrown attempts,
and this is the main strategy used in the 'maximum artifacts' challenge.

There are other peculiarities about the ID, such as companion behavior.
If a PC encounters white unicorns in the ID, they will often try to join the
PC's company upon exiting the ID and travelling through the wilderness.
The same thing happens to any pet/slave that gets left behind in the ID.
The Si is the only artifact in the game (other than the Chaos Orbs) that
absolutely can not be picked up by a monster in the ID. If other artifacts are
picked up by monsters in the ID, and the PC leaves the level, the artifact is
gone.
-------------

2.25.1 Filk

> Filk is found in the ID on the level corresponding to the number of first-
> killed monsters killed.

Another peculiarity, if a player passes Filk on their ID dive, all they have
to do is spend some time travelling through the wilderness. Filk will
eventually join the PC in a wilderness encounter.

2.25.2 MaLaKaI

He's listed as a chaos knight in the monser index. I'm pretty sure
he's a dwarven chaos knight. He doesn't see in the dark.


2.26.1 Yrruir, the Greater White Unicorn

> Yrruir generally attacks PCs with chaotic alignment on sight

Please mention that Yrruir will not attack a lawful PC, even if they
backstab him in the spine for no reason at all. I found out about this one
the fun way : ) It was already known though, just not by me.

2.26.2 Riurry, the Greater Black Unicorn

> Returning to Riurry and 'C'hatting results in being rewarded with 1-2
> corruptions, a blessed amulet of chaos and 5-7 uncursed potions of gain
> attributes.

More is possible. I once got 8.

2.27 The Bug-Infested Temple

> Eating a greater claw bug corpse increases speed, gives +3 Dx and -6 Wi.
> Eating a killer bug corpse also increases speed, gives +6 Dx and -12 Wi.

They give only a chance to increase Dx in 1.1.1, no longer a guarantee : (
The higher the stat, the lower the chance, and it gets pretty unlikely around
Dx=30 in my experience. There have been reports of getting Dx=70ish
though, but I think that was with utilizing starvation.



That does it for now, I'll tackle the late-game some other time.
I notice that there are some ADOM demos on the official page, and
I wonder if you would be interested in having some more. I am
willing to record some, like doing BUGWIL with an exp. level 1
wizard and such.

[vogonpoet]

2.22.2.1 The Ghost Librarian

> The Ghost Librarian is nonhostile and plays no role in the game

He blesses the PC if given a scroll or book.

> PC must have Stealth at 100 and spend at least 2000 turns

I think the turns must occasionally be somewhat over 2000. I think
vogonpoet can confirm this : )
------------------


Gah, don't remind me. Following "PC must have Stealth at 100 and spend at least 2000 turns" was ALWAYS enough for me in the past, I have no idea what the problem was with that particular PC :-/. Maybe there is a die roll for a low chance of being completely screwed over by the GL and that PC just got 'lucky'.

[Silfir]

I remember MaLaKaI to be a regular chaos knight...

[warheart]

Gah, don't remind me. Following "PC must have Stealth at 100 and spend at least 2000 turns" was ALWAYS enough for me in the past, I have no idea what the problem was with that particular PC :-/. Maybe there is a die roll for a low chance of being completely screwed over by the GL and that PC just got 'lucky'.

That happened to me too in my only ultra, thought I would need the SoCRs and there was no freaking way of getting the tome, no matter how many turns I spent there. I even went to the library 3 different times being different level, no luck.

[CheatMan]

Eating numerous Devil's Roses (ie, hundreds) does not extend sickness length but rather increases the amount of damages the final sickness blow will deal should it occur.

I just figured that out when i had a promising ultra character killed when he suffered a 1000+ (yes, over a thousand) blow during herb training.

[Grey]

Malakai is indeed a regular chaos knight (though high level). He can't see in the dark. Neither can regular chaos knights.