Possible new rumors and who should give them.

[gut]

We need to figure this first and submit a request later. There just isn't
enough in-game information in adom to inform a player of all the things
they need (or maybe just want) to know. We should rank them, so there is
distinction between need-to-know info and just 'it would be nice' stuff.
Also, let us decide who would be best to give the info. We can't just
keep adding poems, as the MM is too long winded as things are (IMO anyway).

Examples:

Rank level 1 (or such):
Being doomed is bad for entering the chaos gate, but only some doom,
not other doom, like wearing some doom gear... but not other doom gear.
Maybe the oracle can mention this, or gaab bay or some other ultra
related npc.

Rank level 3 (or such):
The advice "Take some measures and harvest some treasures." seems a bit
lacking, especially considering how game-changing that herb farming is.
IMO it is the single most OP feature in adom outside of save scumming
and yet one's chance of landing on the 'Oh, just make squares." tactic
without help is minimal (unless we expect everyone to be familar with
conway's life game). Maybe the druid could mention this?

Rank level 5 (or blah):
Smithing was always one of the most oft-asked questions back on the
brinkster forums. I haven't seen a lot of 'What all do I need for
smithing?" questions recently though, but it couldn't hurt to have
Glod mention a few lines to clarify.

Rank level 7 (ob duh):
It has to be a hatchet, not an axe, as that would be stupid. Also, it
has to be in your tool slot. I know the MM already says something
about this 'good tools' or such, but it isn't enough IMO. Let the
carpenter mention it.

[KyoShinda]

I agree with this, although I learned most things starting out from the wiki. Also, I figured out that I could use the hatchet in the tool slot long before I figured out that you can enter wilderness squares w/o an encounter, there's a lot of things like that would be wierd to put in a rumor and are better just to figure out messing around(or could be added to the manual).

[JellySlayer]

Rank level 7 (ob duh):
It has to be a hatchet, not an axe, as that would be stupid. Also, it
has to be in your tool slot. I know the MM already says something
about this 'good tools' or such, but it isn't enough IMO. Let the
carpenter mention it.

The required steps could be mentioned when the PC (re)reads the manual of bridge building.

[grobblewobble]

One thing (not very important) that I would like to see is to hear some background story or rumor about Kherab from Thrundarr. Who is he, where did he come from, what is he up to? (Currently talking about 'Kherab' or 'darkforge' gets you the standard "me hast nothing to say about that".)

There's a whole lot of info needed for ultra endings so ideally we'd need to see quite a few extra hints from different sources, I guess? I think that if you save Khelavaster, he should give you one hint to get you started. One thing that is very difficult to figure out without being spoiled is the requirement of being level 45. You normally don't reach that level before you killed the balors on D:50. So maybe Khelavaster could tell you to "practice more", "come back later" or something along those lines before you are xp level 45? Then once you are high level enough, he could refer you to the mad minstrel, who could in turn refer you to the assassin prince?

Smithing is a good point. One idea for that is to let the dwarven smith hand you a rereadable scroll (smithing manual) that explains the steps when you buy the skill from him.

[Stingray1]

Great thread.

I don't think too much more is needed for smithing. The game already tells you that you need a forge when applying the skill, I think it even tells you to wield a hammer somewhere. Plus the Weaponsmith class do start with all the needed stuff.

The assassin prince does say something along the lines of not being experienced enough, but as GB said most everyone is going to be deep in CoC on high xl and no one is thinking about going back to the surface then. The prince says he needs a token that you can assassinate or kill or something along those lines.

Maybe some cookie that says, Assassins like daggers and daggers are tokens. Not as explicit as that, but I'm not good at writing rumours.

Edit - Maybe, "A good dagger is a token of a good assassin." The prince should maybe hint that one needs to be extremely experienced.

An alternative could be that Kherab's 3rd quest is to slay the prince, this way the player will find out that the prince has the one dagger of the twins the existing rumour speaks of.

I'm almost convinced TB thought characters would level much faster than they do.

[grobblewobble]

I'm almost convinced TB thought characters would level much faster than they do.

Absolutely agreed. The levelling pattern is a bit strange, level 1-10 go pretty fast, then you slowly crawl to level 20 in the midgame (up until tower), reach maybe level 30 in the endgame (including all temples), until you start killing balors and you skyrocket to 40+. It also shows in certain classpowers you gain long after you have any use for them.. learning to evade wilderness encounters at level 25 and so on.[/derail]

[Grey]

Smithing should just be described in the skills section of the manual.

For hatchet the fact that the carpenter drops a hatchet on death is a hint. In general I prefer this sort of in-game hint than just spelling things out or leaving it to random fortune cookie messages.

Bard songs are a good way to give more hints on obscure knowledge. I wrote a few of these a while back to help reveal more obscure knowledge. Could maybe do some more...

[gym21]

We could also just have the saved carpenter offer hints on woodcraft, bridge-building and fletchery if you chat to him.

[Stingray1]

I have to gauge necessity of additional clues needed on my experience for the moment, unless somebody mentions that their experiences were totally different.

With regards to smithing, fletchery and bridge building I don't think any more "help" is needed. All of these I could figure out how to use in a fairly reasonable time. As I said, with smithing the game tells you what you are missing, same with fletchery. As Grey said the carpenter dropping a Manual, hatchet and something to remove the rust from the hatchet is fair enough.

There is a Tool slot when you press "i" when you press "o" then a whole list of stuff you can "u,U, u:"se comes up, I think a hatchet, pickaxe, beeswax is on the list. Although, I think it mentions a body of water when trying to use a hatchet, maybe that can be changed to "water or tree".

One thing gut mentioned was herbs, which I could never figure out. Not the growth patterns(edit: I did try, but soon got bored and gave up) nor the use of moss, morgia. The others were very easy though, obviously.
There are rumours that speak about these herbs, but still they don't say they should be used in quantity to gain increases. Hence, I ignored these two herbs for most of my ADOM career.

[blob]

I have no idea why dooming should affect entering the gate, I say that requirement should just be dropped. The C artifacts give it so the whole thing just seems silly.

I also have no idea why an axe would not be good enough for chopping trees, and think they should be implemented as well.

As regards to herbs I'd say the druid can give you a more or less explicit hint as to their uses if one chats to him with them in the inventory. Seems in character. Isn't there already a hint like "they say that herbs grow in specific patterns"?

I forget if there's a hint that you can throw potions and stuff, if not there should be.

Why on earth doesn't Kelly just say he's gonna pop over to town if you save him?? And why is he invisible? I get that it's just to mess with us but think it's a bit over the top.

[Arctic]

The most game-changing discoveries I learned after reading spoilers was:

1. How to save the carperter.
2. Dropping stuff on altars.
3. What to talk to the ancient dwarf about.

I coudn't figure those out fifteen years ago and I'm not sure I could even now if I suddenly just forgot everything about the game. Given that these are more or less basics, there could be more hints or even explanations in the manual to help out totally new players. The manual might have been updated after the last time I read it through though.

[Harwin]

The most game-changing discoveries I learned after reading spoilers was:

1. How to save the carperter.
2. Dropping stuff on altars.
3. What to talk to the ancient dwarf about.

I coudn't figure those out fifteen years ago and I'm not sure I could even now if I suddenly just forgot everything about the game. Given that these are more or less basics, there could be more hints or even explanations in the manual to help out totally new players. The manual might have been updated after the last time I read it through though.

#1 I liked this being a bit of a puzzle. I'm not saying it couldn't be made easier (I figured it out, but that could have been a random stroke of insight - my personal experience doesn't make an entire data set), but I'd like it to stay something that you figure out, even if it is clued better.

#2 can be figured out when you kill something that's standing on an altar, and the objects are now labelled "uncursed", etc. They're also hinted at by the fact that priests have the intrinsic ability.

#3 Which in particular? "Portal" or "Quest"? I asked him about the portal because the portal "seemed to be of dwarven manufacture", if I recall correctly. I thought that was clued adequately. I agree "quest" is a bit weird since no other quest giver seems to require it.

[Harwin]

For herbs... what if herbalism not only identifiedd Blossom/Strong/Withered but told you if it was doomed to die in the next generation? "This herb patch looks stable". "This herb patch looks threatened" or something like that.

[Stingray1]

I forget if there's a hint that you can throw potions and stuff, if not there should be.

Why on earth doesn't Kelly just say he's gonna pop over to town if you save him?? And why is he invisible? I get that it's just to mess with us but think it's a bit over the top.

At least now(latest prereleases), when you have a sling equipped and press 'n' to equip missiles, potions appear in the list together with rocks, clay, gems and bullets.

Also, Khelavaster no longer casts invisibility on himself for no reason. So those two concerns have been addressed.


#1 I liked this being a bit of a puzzle. I'm not saying it couldn't be made easier (I figured it out, but that could have been a random stroke of insight - my personal experience doesn't make an entire data set), but I'd like it to stay something that you figure out, even if it is clued better.

#2 can be figured out when you kill something that's standing on an altar, and the objects are now labelled "uncursed", etc. They're also hinted at by the fact that priests have the intrinsic ability.

#3 Which in particular? "Portal" or "Quest"? I asked him about the portal because the portal "seemed to be of dwarven manufacture", if I recall correctly. I thought that was clued adequately. I agree "quest" is a bit weird since no other quest giver seems to require it.

1. There is a healer then further down there is the carpenter the village elder asked you to find, it is not straight forward, but almost. Does anybody remember whether the village elder says something when the PC has seen the mad carpenter, but hasn't "saved" him yet?

2. Yea, I think most figure that out by having monsters drop stuff on the altar.

3. There is a Fortune cookie: "They say that the ancient dwarf knows a lot about quests."

[gut]

> 3. There is a Fortune cookie: "They say that the ancient dwarf knows a lot about quests."

I consider fortune cookies to be a... suboptimal source of game info.
How many fortune cookies will a noob find before dying 100 times? I
doubt 5. Giving $$$ to beggars is an option, but noobs are more likely
to find a trove of fortune cookies than think to repeatedly pay/chat
with beggars for game info. The inkeeper in dorftown gives them too,
but only if the PC gets drunk, which one of the rumors mentions is a
rather bad thing (which it is not really). Also, many fortune cookies
give either wrong advice or not-so-great advice "they say ye should
wish for mana." I pity the fool who wastes a wish on +2 mana on the
advice of a fortune cookie (yes, I did this as a noob and I'm still
angry). Of course there is always the 400s confucious book...

>> healer quest

> #1 I liked this being a bit of a puzzle.

The only clues I remember about the healer quest is the hint "healers like it if
you throw stuff at injured..." which did nothing but waste my time. It is highly
improbable for any class other than a priest or healer to have healing potions
to throw, and even then, a noob would be 99% likely to personally injure the mob
before trying to heal it, which doesn't work. I didn't learn anything at all about
luring monsters until I had gotten to fire tower or such.

> Does anybody remember whether the village elder says something when the PC has seen the mad carpenter, but hasn't "saved" him yet?

Yes, it is along the lines of 'now put him out of his misery.' not "now lure
him to the healer."

> #2 can be figured out when you kill something that's standing on an altar,

Am I wrong that as soon as a noob stands on an altar and gets an insta-death
they will not like fiddling with altars too much in the future?

> For herbs... what if herbalism not only identifiedd Blossom/Strong/Withered but told you if it was doomed to die in the next generation? "This herb patch looks stable". "This herb patch looks threatened" or something like that.

Better than nothing, IMO.

> Bard songs are a good way to give more hints on obscure knowledge.

Too many already, IMO. I like the idea of the MM giving quest related hints and maybe
some early game advice too, but goodness, shouldn't a line be drawn somewhere? Here is
where I WOULD have inserted the MM dump, but my text editor informs me it is over *10,000*
characters on its own -_-

Also, I think a lot of what he says is just wrong.

> and you should really listen to the sound of my string
for a drakeling has really a hard time in there

No, no drakelings don't. In fact they have the easiest time in there.

> Deep in the forest of moving trees,
Crossing is not such a breeze,
It may take some time, but be persistent,
Even if some may be resistant,
But whatever you do, don't use fire!
Or else you'll be faced with even hotter ire...

Not all fire magic is bad for the AF though, only some. In fact, some fire magic is the best
offense to use. Don't ask me which ones though, as not even I remember for sure.

> Dungeons are Grimy
Blobs are Slimy
When dealing with Puddles
Missiles are Subtle.

Missiles are subtle for puddles... is 'subtle' a good or bad thing? Also, jellies aren't mentioned
specifically, and slimes/puddles are distinct monsters in other games, so the player would be thinking:
"I haven't seen a slime or a puddle, but I'll be on the lookout for them now."

> Molochs are mighty daemons to face,
For they are the strongest of their race,
They possess great strength and much immunity,
So don't try to test out their impunity,
Run! I say, as fast as you can!
Teleport, dig or swim like a man!
Get away! Get away! Quickly, I say!
Else your head will be the main course of the day!

Revenants are worse than molochs on any given day. We need to go through all this mess and
cut out everything that isn't top-notch. These messages are given randomly, therefore
increasing the quantity of mediocre info (and poetry), only increases the noise to signal
ratio. Perform this experiment, just load adom, visit the MM, and see how many attempts it
takes you to get this (very nice, IMO) poem.

> An age ago, there lived a king, most pious and benevolent,
Who from his god received a ring to shield him from the elements.
This king, he had a brother true, a fighter lion-hearted,
Who sought to rout all Chaos through the Gate from whence it started.
He purged the evil from the land, his blade once never faltered,
And only by his god's own hand was his adventure halted.
"O fighter brave," his god did say, "though noble is your mission,
Yet centuries must slip away before it finds completion.
The Balance leans too much to Law, and I must now amend it;
Let Chaos have its time on Earth ere back to hell you send it.
But watch this stair eternally, and wait for Heaven's message,
To show the mighty champion who's earned the right of passage.
For only one you'll step aside and cease your faithful vigil:
The one who wears your brother's ring emblazed with Heaven's sigil."

It took me over 50. I had to wade through dozens of repeats of mediocre poems to get to it.
Also, while I'm mentioning repeats:

> Felines have a shiny fur.
When you feed them, they will purr.
True cat-lovers never harm them,
some musicians try to charm them.
For all others, let me warn them:
As soon as felines meet disaster
their energy rejoins their master.

> The Lord of the Cats is a touchy fellow,
His teeth are sharp and his eyes are yellow.
All kinds of cats he calls his subjects,
Small ones, big ones, all he'll protect.
If kind ye be to cats, I sing,
Talk from him his precious ring!

What do the rest of you think about cutting some MM messages and shifting others
(especially repeats) to other NPCs/cookies/etc...?

[Stingray1]

For a veteran the MM songs do feel long-winded. I do remember as a new player that is was very exciting finding so much knowledge in one place.

Fortune cookies were very exciting too and Confucius's book was like a birthday gift. They are sometimes lies, but I think in just the right amount.

TB is an evil man. I do think I have a lot more perseverance than your average player though, so I do think some leniency is required.

Perhaps we could request that MM songs and fortune cookies are not random, but rather randomly sequenced. So the player has a good chance to read them all in a shorter time. The point in the list could even be saved to a file, so a player will never read the same one until (s)he has read them all. (Edit - Especially for shes)

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I think the MM songs are fine. He is a minstrel singing popular knowledge and lore, not a tutorial. I like that there is good advice in his songs but it is not 100% obvious, you need to figure it out. Preventing repeating songs from appearing during the same game would be nice, though.

Also, the advice about the ToEF and molochs is fine for newbies. As an experienced player, I know that doing the tower is actually easier with a drakeling, but that's because I'll prepare myself specifically (lots of spenseweed or an item of regeneration, etc.) But for a newbie it's actually harder because he'll keep losing health and that's scary. And the same with molochs: once you know how to fight them (i.e. take advantage of their slow speed and keep away from them) they may be easier than revenants, but if you don't know them so much, it's a good idea to respect them and to abstain from meleeing them.

Anyway, if he gives some inexact or exaggerated information (as long as it's not the majority of information he gives) I think that's fine. Lore is like that. In real life, we have all lived (at least in my country, I don't know if it's universal) with the popular lore that bathing in the sea within two hours of having lunch was very dangerous and could kill us. I have read articles saying that it's a myth, but mothers keep passing that advice to their children.

About the carpenter puzzle, I think it's fine too. I figured it out by myself because the healer tells you that you need to be able to show mercy. That is a very explicit clue that should make every self-respecting RPGer be on the look for how to show mercy. And when in the same dungeon you find a man that has gone crazy, it's not so difficult to make the connection. Yes, some people might miss it (I'm not calling anyone dumb, we all have had situations where we miss the obvious), but I don't think that the goal of a game puzzle is that 100% people be able to solve it without reading a walkthrough. That would make the puzzle obvious and uninteresting.

I do think some more in-game information about altars would be useful. I played a lot of games before I figured out that I could bless water at an altar, and doing that can be the difference between life and a gruesome death in many situations.

[Harwin]

I found about blessing water at an altar by accident, but I think by the route most people will do so:
1) I figured out you could ID stuff by dropping it on an altar.
2) I attempted to ID stuff by dropping it on an altar.
3) I was in good enough standing with my god ("offering" things seemed pretty obvious - it's what you'd do at an altar - the ID stuff is the less obvious)
4) I got holy water out of it. I do remember being confused the first time I got holy water from a C altar, since it glowed in a black light, but it still ID'd as holy in my inventory, so the confusion was about 5s.

For everything up here, some of us found it obvious, some found it obscure. But I think some level of obscurity should be tolerated, as long as there's a reasonable way to figure it out (I don't think the Village Elder should say "put him out of his misery" if he could say "perhaps ye could find a way to help him". I mean, if a player has encountered the carpenter, and bothered to walk all the way back to town to talk to the Elder, that sounds like a player who wants some help - the Elder should not go out of his way to steer you wrong at that point)


As far as MM songs:
Maybe MM songs should be weighted?
The moloch song is useful, but moloch's are a lesson you'll learn the first time you see one, even if you've never seen the song. (Like the deadliness of the Banshee - it would be nice to know about it in advance, but at least I learned about it the first time it killed me). So it could show up but,
The drakeling song is way more useful - It could be non-obvious what's causing you problems in the ToEF as a drakeling, even if you've done it before.

What if the songs looked at a high score list or some other persistent data, and while no song would repeat in the same game, songs that were more likely relevant to you showed up earlier? So the Cat Lord song is good, but should get higher priority after you've encountered the Cat Lord, or at least beaten the ToEF. And significantly less likely if you've ever earned the ring. The pretty sweet Eternal Guardian song could be more likely after you've encountered Khelavaster (or beaten the ToEF), and less likely once you've ever passed him.

[anon123]

The Confucious book should probably be buffed. It's as rare as an everburning torch, weights as much as four (more directly useful) spellbooks, and usually gives something like 6 rumors before disappearing. The true vs. false rumor ratio is fine in my opinion: a generous chunk of them are true, if somewhat cryptic. Weighting them somehow might not be a bad idea, however. Maybe the book could have the special property of displaying more relevant bits (if on an herb level, show rumors related to herbs; if on a room with an altar show messages related to sacrificing and the gods, etc.).

The Mad Minstrel's songs are useful, but he lives a bit too far from the areas most new players are likely to venture initially.

As for the carpenter, I didn't know you could save him until I watched that famous ADOM video with the Sonata Arctica soundtrack :) But I don't think there should be clear hints for everything, that'd make the game feel too linear.

[KyoShinda]

Altars still seem very confusing to me, the most I've done is tried to sacrifice some monsters on it and then I stopped doing that. I hear things about certain races get more out of getting rid of certain things and something about a holy symbol(do I just spam-pray that?). What happens if I use an altar not of my alignment? I feel smithing is much easier to figure out than the altar stuff. Does any altar bless water if I drop it there? How do I know how much my 'god' likes me or how much more I need to be liked?

Also, when I pay garth or yergius to increase stats or skills, it seems really vague, I just pay an arbitrary amount and it never seems to do anything at all. I threw like 15k at garth to increase my dex up from 23 and it didn't go up, even after a couple of levels.

Edit: nvm wiki says a lot about altars, altho most of that isn't very obvious

[gut]

So on the topic of the MM poems, it (surprisingly) seems most are fine with 10K characters of info-poems, and even adding more.
I don't understand this, but whatever the consensus is, I will go with it. I have to say that I do not like the idea of making any of
the messages less likely to be repeated in a game though, as I am one who likes to re-read them because I like (some of) them.

We might not even get any new advice added to the game though, so this may all be for nothing anyway, but if we do manage to
decide on some important advices to be added, and the MM is the primary outlet, it will require a lot of new verse.

[gut]

> Edit: nvm wiki says a lot about altars, altho most of that isn't very obvious

The whole point of me bringing this up is to minimize the need for that.
I'm not saying we should incorporate the GB into the game, like showing
what stat boni elves get or such, rather more along the lines of providing
enough info to cover the basics or avoid stupid insta-deaths. At least
enough to keep noobs from having to run to a wiki or forum in order to,
say, enter locations, smith, harvest herbs, use an altar, etc...

Let me try to think of some other non-trivial advices real quick...
Polymorphing items isn't advised in-game, right? Should it be?
Encouraging blink dogs to duplicate.
Each new PC (usually) gets 2 prayers to start out, and additional ones
as their xl increases.
Help me try to think of things you normally tell noobs about if/when you
watch them play.

How about having Ruun, the DT priest give info about altar use? That
would provide quite a bit of time for players to figure it out on their
own, as noobs usually don't hit DT until they have plenty of experience
with eastern Ancardia stuffs.

I am glad someone brought up Garth, as I never fool with him at all, and a
big reason for that is I never have any idea how much gold I should give
him and don't want to pull out the GB and a calculator to figure it. Not
sure I should make a big deal about this, as I still say piety beats Garth
by a mile in terms of bang for the buck.

[KyoShinda]

> Edit: nvm wiki says a lot about altars, altho most of that isn't very obvious
How about having Ruun, the DT priest give info about altar use? That
would provide quite a bit of time for players to figure it out on their
own, as noobs usually don't hit DT until they have plenty of experience
with eastern Ancardia stuffs.
That would be a great idea too. I didn't know about the alter B/U/C item check until you guys mentioned it in this thread, they should really have him mention something along those lines(before this I would keep an ultra huge pile of items in my makeshift Dwarftown wh and wait until I get an identify scroll and hope it's blessed).

[JellySlayer]

My opinions on some of these things...



Being doomed is bad for entering the chaos gate, but only some doom,
not other doom, like wearing some doom gear... but not other doom gear.
Maybe the oracle can mention this, or gaab bay or some other ultra
related npc.

I think there ought to be an NPC that outlines the ultra requirements in more detail. Too obscure otherwise.


The advice "Take some measures and harvest some treasures." seems a bit
lacking, especially considering how game-changing that herb farming is.

'What all do I need for smithing?"

It has to be a hatchet, not an axe, as that would be stupid. Also, it
has to be in your tool slot.

We could also just have the saved carpenter offer hints on woodcraft, bridge-building and fletchery if you chat to him.

...enter locations...


All of the documentation for how to use a skill and what items you need and what slots they should be in definitely should be in the manual. Ingame tips on this I think just add unnecessary clutter. I'm not certain how much herb lore should be described as some of it can be left to discovery, but you should be able to get at least a basic understanding of how to farm herbs and why from the manual.


Each new PC (usually) gets 2 prayers to start out, and additional ones
as their xl increases.

altar use

The manual actually has a fairly good discussion about piety and altars already. The rest of these details could probably be included there as well.


Polymorphing items isn't advised in-game, right? Should it be?

Maybe a more generic tip about dipping items into potions? Dipping items into holy water or oils are much more important uses than polymorphing; polymorph really requires some fairly esoteric knowledge about item DLs in order to be somewhat safe anyway. I think this is appropriate for a cookie hint.


Encouraging blink dogs to duplicate.

For a newish player, you're probably more concerned about trying to get summoners to stop duplicating, if anything. I think it's pretty obvious that when you kill a horde of blink dogs you might get a corpse.


Garth

Maybe Garth should just quote you a price for training. Maybe three levels of training "light training" "intensive training" and "extreme training" with appropriate cost multipliers, that correspond to, say, 25, 50 and 100 percent chance of an increase.

[Harwin]

I think "encouraging blink dogs to duplicate" is a natural extension of existing game mechanics. i.e. - You'd like an intrinsic, corpses often grant intrinsics, more animals = more chance for corpse.

I'm with JellySlayers on having Garth quote you a price for training rather than have to make an arbitrary number up that may not be anything like what you want.

I feel like most Altar use is actually fairly easy to experiment with in basic terms. From experimentation I learned that I could be sacrificed (painful, but I learned it), how ID'ing items worked, at what level a god needed to be to bless holy water, etc.

Crowning probably isn't clear - all other prayers are reactive "I need healing, etc". Crowning gifts are the only ones that work a different way. Maybe when it says "You feel absolutely close to your god" it could say "You might be able to pray for a boon", or Ruun could teach that. I mean, I always assumed that I'd get some sort of better reward as I made my deity like me more, but it's hard to know there are still levels above you after you hit "Very close".

[grobblewobble]

Crowning probably isn't clear - [snip] it's hard to know there are still levels above you after you hit "Very close".
Agree. I would never have figured out the possibility of crowning on my own - I would never have thought to sacrifice that much and afaik (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no in-game hint at such a possibility.

[KyoShinda]

I was talking to a black wizard 'just because' and was thinking maybe they should have neutral mobs tell rumors too.

[JellySlayer]

Agree. I would never have figured out the possibility of crowning on my own - I would never have thought to sacrifice that much and afaik (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no in-game hint at such a possibility.

It's in the manual...

From Section D on alignment "Finally, great piety can bring you the highest honor: your god might declare you to be a champion of his/her religion, endowing you with great powers and the ability to use artifacts with less risk than other mortals".

[Grey]

> Molochs are mighty daemons to face,
For they are the strongest of their race,

Revenants are worse than molochs on any given day.

But molochs are still the strongest of their race. Revenants are undead, not demons :P

[grobblewobble]

It's in the manual...
Maybe I should read it or something. :o

[Stingray1]

Yes, I see you are already consulting the forum on something that hasn't even been implemented yet.

Maybe if we all think back we can come up with the question(s) that made us consult the internet or code-dive for the first time.

Mine was, "What do I do with the Trinity?" From what I read: The oracle's visions come when the PC has it equipped and speak to him. How many players will do that?

[grobblewobble]

Yes, I see you are already consulting the forum on something that hasn't even been implemented yet.

Are you sure? ]:-)

[Harwin]

It's in the manual...

From Section D on alignment "Finally, great piety can bring you the highest honor: your god might declare you to be a champion of his/her religion, endowing you with great powers and the ability to use artifacts with less risk than other mortals".

It's still a bit odd to me that you need to pray for that effect where all the other effects ( -Curse, -Doom, +Luck, +Fate Smiles ) are automatic on gaining that piety on an altar.
I understand why it's handy to have it triggered that way (so you can equip the AMW or whatever to pick your immunity), but it is different from the other piety bonuses.

I figured it out, but sometimes it's hard to remember whether I really figured it out, or assumed it from previously roguelikes.

[Stingray1]

I didn't play any roguelikes before ADOM and I figured out how to get crowned. I think the reason was that I read the entire Manual before I started to play. The words : "You burn with the anticipation of power." helped a lot too. Eventually I did manage to press the pray button when I didn't seem to get any closer.
I remember it clearly as it was extremely tedious to get there with live sacs. Nowadays it seems to go faster.

P.S. I didn't figure out that you'll get an Immunity you don't already have. :)

[Harwin]

I didn't play any roguelikes before ADOM and I figured out how to get crowned. I think the reason was that I read the entire Manual before I started to play.

So did anyone who actually read the manual fail to figure it out?

I didn't know about crowning-crowning (as opposed to pre-crowning) the first time ( because I wasn't L+ or N= or C- ), but I got an artifact, and eventually I'd have randomly gotten crowned.

[Stingray1]

Don't be shy now, post the stuff you didn't figure out. I have many to add, but won't until more of you contribute.

[gym21]

Fire resistance in the ToEF. Four resistances granted through items or inherent intrinsic plus two items? Until I started reading about ADOM I just assumed it was immunity or you're screwed.

[Harwin]

Fire resistance in the ToEF. Four resistances granted through items or inherent intrinsic plus two items? Until I started reading about ADOM I just assumed it was immunity or you're screwed.

Out of curiosity - what happens if you have 3? Worse/better than drakelings?
What about 2?
Does 3 protect you on the bottom floor but not higher floors?

[KyoShinda]

So did anyone who actually read the manual fail to figure it out?--I did read the manual when I very first started playing, but I didn't absorb much of the knowledge because I had no experience with it and probably skipped over a lot of it. I think I'm going to go back and read it again. lol


Out of curiosity - what happens if you have 3? Worse/better than drakelings?
What about 2?
Does 3 protect you on the bottom floor but not higher floors?--From the wiki: "With no resistance, the PC will suffer 10 damage every turn; with a single resistance, 2 damage will be taken every turn. With 2, one damage will be every turn, with 3, one damage will be every other turn. With four or more resistances or fire immunity, the player will not suffer damage from the heat. If the player has the Immune to Pain talent, two resistances are enough."

It might be the same for all floors?


Also, I have a question, in the manual it says your 'background'(early childhood, childhood, youth, young adult) influences your attributes, I don't see any charts about that, or is it referring to what you answered for the questions??

[JellySlayer]

Also, I have a question, in the manual it says your 'background'(early childhood, childhood, youth, young adult) influences your attributes, I don't see any charts about that, or is it referring to what you answered for the questions??

It isn't referring to the questions, but rather your background history.

I don't think that this has ever been documented in detail. The information is presumably accessible to code-divers, but nobody has ever really had an interest in writing up the details. I can tell you think being sick in your childhood is very, very, bad. Being tortured is probably bad too.

[Stingray1]

It is also of vital importance to find out exactly why new players tend to visit the SMC without heeding the warnings repeatedly. This, I can imagine, must be an extremely discouraging place for new players to visit. From what I've heard they however still go there?

Any insights will be appreciated, not only by me, but by future players.

[Harwin]

It is also of vital importance to find out exactly why new players tend to visit the SMC without heeding the warnings repeatedly. This, I can imagine, must be an extremely discouraging place for new players to visit. From what I've heard they however still go there?

Any insights will be appreciated, not only by me, but by future players.

You have 3 general options at the start:
SMC
PC
VD/DD

The PC is closed off until you find and talk to the little girl, who can be hard to find in town. So I'm not surprised the SMC is ranked higher.
The elder and the druid are at least in relatively fixed locations, but maybe people are used to going to the dungeon they can see first?

Also, the SMC appears to level you up faster (frustrating sometimes when I don't WANT to level in it) - so maybe that's why people go there?

[Stingray1]

Maybe a special death message should be generated in the SMC. "You Die...Out of stupidity."

[boat]

It is also of vital importance to find out exactly why new players tend to visit the SMC without heeding the warnings repeatedly. This, I can imagine, must be an extremely discouraging place for new players to visit. From what I've heard they however still go there?

Any insights will be appreciated, not only by me, but by future players.

As harwin said,

If you don't talk to anyone, or are scouting around initially smc is the closest cave to find. If you mean warnings, its not blatant enough for noobs.For most games, it specifically shows the monster level (and sometimes stats) so you know what you are getting into. This is like WoW when someone or something is significantly higher level than you, it shows a skull next to their name. I dont know how ADOM can convey this, but most games they BLATANTLY state, "Ok these enemies are way above your pay grade, get out of here!", then again most games don't have permadeath, so repeated dying is usually the best way to convey a roadblock or challenge to avoid.

I dont know if these solutions follow under a "rumor giver" but maybe there could be something like, "They say there are many caves around Teryino if you know who to talk to".

What about having the ability to re-roll the same character/combo (class,race,starsign, stats) to start the game up quickly? Dungeons of dredmor did this i believe. It helps you get back into the fray good and fast, so if you keep re-rolling and going into SMC.. you could start to take a hint.

The hardest thing for me first learning adom was staying fed, and avoiding bad corpses. Holding down the arrows keys while backtracking through a dungeon got me killed lots. The 'w'alk command should be emphasized.

Also, as a teen first playing the game - I printed out the keybindings list ;)

[Stingray1]

There is a road leading to Terinyo, there is a warning as you enter the SMC, there is a scroll on the stairs, there is monsters killing every PC that stays there, there is a song by the Mad Minstrel that warns beginners about the SMC.

Maybe the song should be 'sung' by somebody in Terinyo.

So, if you repeatedly die in the SMC, something is amiss.

Adding the 'w' command to the short section(For Beginners) for ppl that don't want to read the entire keybindings when just starting is a good suggestion.

[Harwin]

There is a road leading to Terinyo, there is a warning as you enter the SMC, there is a scroll on the stairs, there is monsters killing every PC that stays there, there is a song by the Mad Minstrel that warns beginners about the SMC.

Maybe the song should be 'sung' by somebody in Terinyo.

So, if you repeatedly die in the SMC, something is amiss.

Adding the 'w' command to the short section(For Beginners) for ppl that don't want to read the entire keybindings when just starting is a good suggestion.


Players who get to the minstrel have presumably already figured out the SMC?
The road leads to Terinyo, to be sure - and I went there first the first time, but the SMC is still always visible unlike the PC, VD/DD.

I wasn't sure at first why "you feel like staying here very long isn't a good idea", but I figured out the SMC because the same innocent monster types started getting really deadly and the "look" command showed them as "experienced", etc, at which point the message was clear.

Honestly, the "look" command saves me all the time here - I wonder if newbies aren't using it? Is it in the "For Beginners" section?

[KyoShinda]

There is a road leading to Terinyo, there is a warning as you enter the SMC, there is a scroll on the stairs, there is monsters killing every PC that stays there, there is a song by the Mad Minstrel that warns beginners about the SMC.

Maybe the song should be 'sung' by somebody in Terinyo.

So, if you repeatedly die in the SMC, something is amiss.

Adding the 'w' command to the short section(For Beginners) for ppl that don't want to read the entire keybindings when just starting is a good suggestion.When I started I assumed they were a little higher level, I didn't think that it was a multiplicative level thing. As an archer you can kill pretty high level things at the beginning so I kept going on and on until a fairy dragon came by and it was the first dragon I ever saw so I decided to ditch. Later I looked up details about the dungeon and that was when I discovered the real danger of the place.

Like others say, it's very close, visible, and gives good experience, so it seems like a good place to go when you don't know much about the game.



It isn't referring to the questions, but rather your background history.

I don't think that this has ever been documented in detail. The information is presumably accessible to code-divers, but nobody has ever really had an interest in writing up the details. I can tell you think being sick in your childhood is very, very, bad. Being tortured is probably bad too.
Is it legal to code dive? And if it is, what program would you use to do so?

[Stingray1]

@Harwin I don't see the 'l'ook command there, but also think it should be added. While reading though it, which literally takes a minute, I did find this sentence: "If a dungeon seems to be impossibly difficult, maybe you should look elsewhere first."

[Harwin]

@Stingray1. True. I first played Adom about 14 years ago so sometimes it's very hard for me to remember what I read in the manual then.

Edit:
At least in the version of Adom I'm looking at, all those tips are in "How to Start". That seems like something people will read (if they read it at all), before they start playing. Nowadays the only reason I look at the manual is to remember what my class powers will be etc (i.e., as a reference). If someone is having trouble with the game, will they go back and look at "How to Start?"

Some of its tips are very much "How To Start" - "Use '>' to enter Wilderness locations" (which I've heard at least one person get stumped by), and some are more useful after playing for a bit, like the aforementioned "If a dungeon seems impossibly difficult" or the "Remember the 'T'actics command" or tips on satiation. What if there were a 'Tips and Tricks' or a 'Having Trouble? Read this" section, that someone would know to reference if they were indeed having trouble.

Or it could even remind you about it after the first few deaths - "Would you like to see the last messages before your death?", "Would you like to review the 'Tips and Tricks' section of the manual"?

It seems like a lot of the response on this topic has been - "If they'd only read the manual". Maybe pointing people to the manual after death would help with that? Even just by reminding them that the manual is there and contains helpful information?

[gut]

here are some things I saw fit to work into guttbot, which is used routinely even by highly experienced players (maybe a hint it is useful enough to cover in-game).

material based ID (at least until Soi's fit): could be hinted at in-game?
heir gifts: are they already listed in the manual?
herb order: I think knowing order may be less game breaking than just knowing to make squares and don't pick to death.
pool messages: Why shouldn't a player know what is happening to them?
spell info: the fact that spells cost more when casting points are < 100

[JellySlayer]

Is it legal to code dive? And if it is, what program would you use to do so?

I'm not technically knowledgeable enough to have a clue how this is done.

TB does not approve of code-diving generally. I suspect, though I'm not certain, that code-diving could possibly constitute an infringement of TB's copyright and be illegal in the most literal sense, though this would depend on the specific laws in your/his respective jurisdictions. Unless you manage to use the extracted code to build some derivative of ADOM, I suspect TB has better things to do with his time than try to enforce it. In practice, portions of the Guidebook and other guides would probably not have been possible without code-diving, and several game bugs were probably only discovered through these means.

[Stingray1]

Something that annoyed me somewhat is Monster Memory.
The fact that it reflects the current PCs knowledge.

Now, as a new player I can do my best to memorize, make a list of all the monsters. As an experienced player I have memorized most everything about every monster none-the-less, but this takes time.

Is it best that ADOM also remains a memory training tool?
Or would it be fine if ADOM makes the list for the player, by keeping monster memory?

[Al-Khwarizmi]

As far as I know, code-diving is legal in most countries as long as you don't do it with the purpose of creating a competing product (in that case, it would be a violation of copyright).

However, in the US it's not legal if the EULA specifically says it is prohibited.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Something that annoyed me somewhat is Monster Memory.
The fact that it reflects the current PCs knowledge.

Now, as a new player I can do my best to memorize, make a list of all the monsters. As an experienced player I have memorized most everything about every monster none-the-less, but this takes time.

Is it best that ADOM also remains a memory training tool?
Or would it be fine if ADOM makes the list for the player, by keeping monster memory?
I think the monster memory is fine as it is now. Making it a memory for the player would kill immersion. And we do have the guidebook and wikis if we want, anyway.

The same goes for gut's remark about pool messages. Yes, I do use guttbot in the IRC channel - but that's because I long figured out all the messages, so knowing what they mean now is just a matter of memory - I could have taken notes (as I commonly did for 80s games), but I didn't because I know there is the guidebook, the bot, etc. But I think it's great that you have to figure the messages out at the beginning, and that pools are not only dangerous, but mysterious as well.

Players that want to be spoiled do have loads of spoily resources, so I don't see why the spoilers should be in-game. Players should have the choice between being spoiled or not. I found playing unspoiled to be a great experience back when I did it in the olden days, and I think ADOM would have been significantly less exciting if the game were throwing explicit info like pool effects at me.

[Stingray1]

Is there a way to warn new players that they will lose out on the excitement and surprises if they are unfortunate enough to spoil themselves?

Maybe a one liner in the Starting Out section of the manual?

[grobblewobble]

Is there a way to warn new players that they will lose out on the excitement and surprises if they are unfortunate enough to spoil themselves?
Common sense. ;)

[Stingray1]

Lack there of? ;)

Edit- I mean, if you haven't played through ADOM unspoiled, you wouldn't know that it is filled with it as a new player(even old spoiled).

[gut]

> Yes, I do use guttbot in the IRC channel - but that's because I long figured out all the messages

Did you save scum to do that? I sure did, and I remember most other folks saying they did as well.

In fact, that may be a better frame of reference than 'what would you tell to noobs' or 'what do you use most from GB'.
What need for info made you save scum? Getting through the chaos gate might have been done via savescum marathon.
Pool messages, herb growths, tough monster battles, etc... Why is it worse to have in-game hints for these things than
to (nearly) require savescumming?

EDIT: one possible solution would be to offer advice after an event or puzzle occured, that way the player would/could
know for the next game.

meh, then again, with internet access being what it is, maybe it is OK for adom to be a game that nearly requires spoilers

[Stingray1]

I prefer the way it works now, where the game gives you hints prior to the events.

[JellySlayer]

Did you save scum to do that? I sure did, and I remember most other folks saying they did as well.

Revelation spell? Potions of insight? Not that hard to find. Or just keep track of what the messages were and check your intrinsics upon death. Pool messages are descriptive enough that you can guess what most of them do, IMHO.