Duelist - IMO needs rebalancing

[kordi82]

In the recent game I tried duelist and IMO they need some rebalancing.

1. Their class powers start to kick in a little bit too late. All through the early game shield and heavy armor is defenitely more tempting than tapping into their class powers. I think that somewhere after the pyramid it finally started to make sense to me to skip shield and go with mummy wrapping to activate class powers. This spoils a little bit of fun IMO.

2. They are WAAAAAAAAY to heavily penalized for ranged weapons. Common, 10 times penalty with no access to spells? Farmer can shoot arrows better than duelist? Somehow this doesn't seem right. Killing some monsters in melee later on in the game is a real pain in the rear even if you can make 2,5 hits in a turn... i.e. Emperor Lich or Ancient Chaos Wyrm come to my mind.

All in all the class bore me pretty quickly and I started next playthrough with Merchant (probably the crappiest class of them all ;)).

[grobblewobble]

I'm sorry but I don't agree.. at very low level, punching through armor already makes "playing in style" a reasonable option. If you find a large crystal shield or great two hander very early on then yes, you are better off using that for the early game. But is that really a problem? If you're flexible you will always have some edge over someone who swears to a certain style.

As they progress their power really goes through the roof. By the endgame they really are the very best melee class. A high level duelist with Executor beats even a paladin with Justifier. Duelists do not need missiles, ever. They are strong enough to kill greater molochs in a fair fight, without any sort of fancy footwork or disabling. Imo it is only fair that their early game is not the strongest (and they're by no means weak even in the early game).

[Stingray1]

I have to agree with Grobblewobble, we can't have them be powerful from start to finish. My Duelist victor did not use missiles or shields. The start was tricky with karmics, oozes, etc. But hey there has to be some challenges.

When they get that Mastery class power they are IMO just too strong actually.

I would rather say CK with the right corruptions is unbalanced and too strong from start to finish, thick gauntlets has to go flying.

[kordi82]

I'm sorry but I don't agree.. at very low level, punching through armor already makes "playing in style" a reasonable option. If you find a large crystal shield or great two hander very early on then yes, you are better off using that for the early game. But is that really a problem? If you're flexible you will always have some edge over someone who swears to a certain style.


Hmm.... Maybe I am missed something. Do I understand this right that with one handed weapon and light armor they can bypass PV? and this is NOT the same as find weakness?

But even if... I still believe that penalty on ranged weapons is too much. I understand 2-3 times, but not 10.

[grobblewobble]

Hmm.... Maybe I am missed something. Do I understand this right that with one handed weapon and light armor they can bypass PV? and this is NOT the same as find weakness?

Yes, exactly. When they meet the equipment + burden requirements you will now and then see the combat message "you locate a weak spot in the armor of the -foo-" (happens even at level 1). That means you just punched through its armor, as if your weapon was "of penetration". Find weakness is something else, it increases critical hits, which deal double damage. These effects stack, so you can score critical hits that ignore armor.

[kordi82]

Yes, exactly. When they meet the equipment + burden requirements you will now and then see the combat message "you locate a weak spot in the armor of the -foo-" (happens even at level 1). That means you just punched through its armor, as if your weapon was "of penetration". Find weakness is something else, it increases critical hits, which deal double damage. These effects stack, so you can score critical hits that ignore armor.

Nice, but still early game I am much more concerend with PV and health than with my weapon dmg.
Nevertheless I believe that ranged weapon penalty is too much.

[grobblewobble]

Nevertheless I believe that ranged weapon penalty is too much.

Well, there are other classes with a penalty that effectively blocks one option completely. Beastfighters can't use melee weapons at all, or at least they get a similar penalty. Mindcrafters can forget about book learning.

So the question is: is this a workable challenge, or does it make the class too hard? I had no trouble winning with duelists, without using any missile weapons. What exactly is the reason you feel they are needed?

[Grey]

They still have wands for some ranged tactics. And missiles can still be of use even at low levels of mastery. Personally I love that they are a thematic challenge with some super-powers, especially since before their introduction melee was always seen as the boring and sometimes impossible option.

[JellySlayer]

2. They are WAAAAAAAAY to heavily penalized for ranged weapons. Common, 10 times penalty with no access to spells? Farmer can shoot arrows better than duelist? Somehow this doesn't seem right. Killing some monsters in melee later on in the game is a real pain in the rear even if you can make 2,5 hits in a turn... i.e. Emperor Lich or Ancient Chaos Wyrm come to my mind.

Well, duelists do get the concentration skill, so they're not completely hopeless casters in the late game. By the endgame, they're plenty strong enough to tank almost any powerful creature without fear anyway--their damage output probably exceeds any class except maybe archers. The missile penalty is severe, but it doesn't mean you can't use missiles at all--it just means you suck with them compared to other classes. Missile ranks aren't so very important in the grand scheme of things; I've finished lots of characters with <6 ranks in missiles.


All in all the class bore me pretty quickly

I'm not surprised that they bored you quickly if you completely ignored all of the stuff that makes them interesting! It's like playing a non-casting wizard or a non-missile archer.

Overall, I'd consider duelists among their easier melee classes to play. Probably on par with monks or beastfighters (who play quite similarly).

[gym21]

Having won with a duelist on my previous playthrough I was worried that this thread would be about nerfing them! Anyway, I see this as Grey does -- a thematic challenge. And I love how they play completely uniquely; by level 18 or so they can melee things nobody else in their right mind would even consider trying.

PS: High elven duelists have it pretty easy at the start. Elven chain mail is lovely.

[grobblewobble]

Having won with a duelist on my previous playthrough I was worried that this thread would be about nerfing them!

Me too. I feel they're just perfect as they are, the best addition in 1.2 so far. Totally in love with the class.

[Greyling]

I'm sorry but I don't agree.. at very low level, punching through armor already makes "playing in style" a reasonable option. If you find a large crystal shield or great two hander very early on then yes, you are better off using that for the early game. But is that really a problem? If you're flexible you will always have some edge over someone who swears to a certain style.

As they progress their power really goes through the roof. By the endgame they really are the very best melee class. A high level duelist with Executor beats even a paladin with Justifier. Duelists do not need missiles, ever. They are strong enough to kill greater molochs in a fair fight, without any sort of fancy footwork or disabling. Imo it is only fair that their early game is not the strongest (and they're by no means weak even in the early game).

I've been meaning to ask for help about something related to that. I can see going toe to toe with a lot of enemies as a duelist, but how do you deal with stat drainers, like in the dwarven graveyard?

[GordonOverkill]

Duelists sound so much fun to play... can't wait for the first public release where they are featured!

[grobblewobble]

Do you mean the surface level of Griff? The level 12 power helps a lot. Blessing your weapon for extra damage on undead helps, too. High PV helps. Avoid being surrounded, if you stick to the edges at first and tactically retreat now and then you shouldn't need to fight more than 3 at once. Eating wight corpses can repair toughness loss, weight lifting in the Terinyo shop can repair strength loss with some patience. Or eating a few ogres.

[gym21]

I've been meaning to ask for help about something related to that. I can see going toe to toe with a lot of enemies as a duelist, but how do you deal with stat drainers, like in the dwarven graveyard?

Stat drainers are a pain, but either weak enough to take down in melee very quickly (most undead, greater demons) or avoidable (high-level liches, minotaur mages). I had real difficulty in the minotaur maze with my last duelist, but that's because I was silly enough to go there. Has anyone cleared out a GUV with a duelist yet?

[kordi82]

I'm not surprised that they bored you quickly if you completely ignored all of the stuff that makes them interesting! It's like playing a non-casting wizard or a non-missile archer.


Actually they bore me cause they are 100&#37; melee char. It is all about pounding your way through. Once I found mace of destruction and SLB further game seemed too easy and pointless... lacking any challange. Oh... and I am too lazy to scum for AoLS and I do not find any pleasure in doing normal endings. After 15 years with Adom I get bored pretty easily ;). But that's me... There is a reason why I picked merchant now. However, I can't seem to shrug off the thought of taking up another mindcrafter - which is definitely a favorite class of mine... so challanging... until you reach level 30 hehe ;).

[GordonOverkill]

And you think they would get more exciting by buffing their ranged combat?

[kordi82]

And you think they would get more exciting by buffing their ranged combat?

I think I made it pretty clear what I would rebalance.

1. Their class powers in early game to be more viable.
2. Giving them an option to actually shoot something once in a while instead of constantly finding more creative ways to press your forward button.

Oh... and I didn't know about the PV bypass thing... this I would defenitely make a kind of class power accessible with ctrl-x and penalize it with higher energy consumption - similarily to how barbarian's blow works. Another idea would be to give them a kind of "hop backwards" attack accessible via ctrl-x. Meaning you would make attack and immediately moved backwards from your opponent in the same turn not allowing them to retaliate. This is actually how fencers move... lightning strike hit and jump backward. Or maybe attack accessible by ctrl-x that can be done from one field away?

This would add a little bit of strategy to mindless pressing forward.

[GordonOverkill]

I think I made it pretty clear what I would rebalance.

1. Their class powers in early game to be more viable.
2. Giving them an option to actually shoot something once in a while instead of constantly finding more creative ways to press your forward button.

Oh... and I didn't know about the PV bypass thing... this I would defenitely make a kind of class power accessible with ctrl-x and penalize it with higher energy consumption - similarily to how barbarian's blow works. Another idea would be to give them a kind of "hop backwards" attack accessible via ctrl-x. Meaning you would make attack and immediately moved backwards from your opponent in the same turn not allowing them to retaliate. This is actually how fencers move... lightning strike hit and jump backward.

This would add a little bit of strategy to mindless pressing forward.

What I mean is: If they were able to kill everything in melee before those changes, they will still be afterwards. They would only have more options for the early game and they would get some free missile-attacks before they start meleeing like crazy. I can hardly judge a class that I have never ever played, but at least it sounds to me that those changes might heavily overpower these guys.
I personally think that especially those weaknesses make them very attractive... having to deal with jellys, stat-drainers, certain bosses etc. without being able to shot them.

[gym21]

Another idea would be to give them a kind of "hop backwards" attack accessible via ctrl-x. Meaning you would make attack and immediately moved backwards from your opponent in the same turn not allowing them to retaliate. This is actually how fencers move... lightning strike hit and jump backward. Or maybe attack accessible by ctrl-x that can be done from one field away?

This is essentially the level six class power. Energy costs get so low in melee and duelists are so fast that move-strike-move is the optimal way of dealing with difficult melee opponents, even quite fast ones.

[kordi82]

This is essentially the level six class power. Energy costs get so low in melee and duelists are so fast that move-strike-move is the optimal way of dealing with difficult melee opponents, even quite fast ones.

Yes I do realize this... and this is where boredom begins... especially when you are able to penetrate their PV....

OK... no point in continuing this thread. No one else seems to agree with me. So I was "over voted".

[gym21]

Yes I do realize this... and this is where boredom begins... especially when you are able to penetrate their PV....

Boredom begins when you're able to dance in and out of melee range? Isn't that ability what you were suggesting earlier?

[kordi82]

Boredom begins when you're able to dance in and out of melee range? Isn't that ability what you were suggesting earlier?

This has been in ADOM since the beginning of time... you can do it with every class. You just need more speed to compensate. That's it. Nothing revolutionary in here.

[gym21]

I'm just having trouble reconciling these two quotes, is all.


This has been in ADOM since the beginning of time... you can do it with every class. You just need more speed to compensate. That's it. Nothing revolutionary in here.


Another idea would be to give them a kind of "hop backwards" attack accessible via ctrl-x. Meaning you would make attack and immediately moved backwards from your opponent in the same turn not allowing them to retaliate. This is actually how fencers move... lightning strike hit and jump backward. Or maybe attack accessible by ctrl-x that can be done from one field away?

Is the difference just in the ctrl-x selection?

[kordi82]

Is the difference just in the ctrl-x selection?

Nope... also in somehow penalizing it. Making it unique for the class. Making it available EARLIER in the game. Disabling penetration for it.... I don't know. The way it is is boring. I was killing greater molochs with gray dagger with this method way before it was cool....

[Stingray1]

Until the Greater Moloch equipped some Moloch armor. ;)

[Harwin]

Until the Greater Moloch equipped some Moloch armor. ;)

Out of curiosity... that would prevent phase dagger use?

[gym21]

Out of curiosity... that would prevent phase dagger use?

Used to be a bug in which their speed got so low when they equipped the armour that it overflowed and became absurdly high. So they turned into quickling molochs and then you died.

[Stingray1]

Yeah, I think that was the scariest thing I ever faced in ADOM. And it was on the same level as Shaador-Waador. I was so panic stricken I even attacked him. So he could help me with his breath attacks.

Luckily there was a long corridor and I could keep teleporting away and shoot demon slayers. Even took some hits, but luckily survived them.

P.S. I didn't realize it was a bug at the time and greedy me wanted that awesome armour. In case you wondered why I didn't just get the hell outa there.

[Greyling]

Oh... and I didn't know about the PV bypass thing... this I would defenitely make a kind of class power accessible with ctrl-x and penalize it with higher energy consumption - similarily to how barbarian's blow works. Another idea would be to give them a kind of "hop backwards" attack accessible via ctrl-x. Meaning you would make attack and immediately moved backwards from your opponent in the same turn not allowing them to retaliate. This is actually how fencers move... lightning strike hit and jump backward. Or maybe attack accessible by ctrl-x that can be done from one field away?


Okay, I personally think that's a very creative and interesting idea.

[grobblewobble]

The way it is is boring.
Well you can't argue about taste, but I'll just say what I like about them as they are now.

First off, every other melee class except duelists can be played as ranged / melee hybrids. To have one class where this is not possible, or at least not very effective, is interesting. If you want a hybrid ranged / melee, there are about 14 other classes to enjoy.

Second, it is not fair to say duelists can mindlessly plow through everything. They become more or less strong enough to do that in the endgame, but even then there are still exceptions (karmics in particular). And more importantly, the endgame only makes up like 10% of the game. The interesting parts of the game are early and midgame. Also, other classes become strong enough to beat the game with mindless repetitive attacks too: wizards can mindlessly spam acid balls or whatever, archers can stick a knife into the T button.

So back to this early and midgame. During this time, a duelist cannot plow on mindlessly. At that point you need to be creative. Your melee attack is strong, but not strong enough yet to be the answer to every problem. And you do lack a really good missile attack (although shooting can still work sometimes, as Jellyslayer noted). So you will need to think, use wands, companions, disablers, slaying ammo, or whatever you have to work with. Just like other classes, but a little different.

One thing that really makes them unique is the possibility to punch through armor with a high damage weapon. No other class can do that, barring very exceptional luck with item generation.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Having won with a duelist on my previous playthrough I was worried that this thread would be about nerfing them! Anyway, I see this as Grey does -- a thematic challenge. And I love how they play completely uniquely; by level 18 or so they can melee things nobody else in their right mind would even consider trying.


Me too. I feel they're just perfect as they are, the best addition in 1.2 so far. Totally in love with the class.

Same here.

[Grey]

I think I made it pretty clear what I would rebalance.

1. Their class powers in early game to be more viable.
2. Giving them an option to actually shoot something once in a while instead of constantly finding more creative ways to press your forward button.

Oh... and I didn't know about the PV bypass thing... this I would defenitely make a kind of class power accessible with ctrl-x and penalize it with higher energy consumption - similarily to how barbarian's blow works. Another idea would be to give them a kind of "hop backwards" attack accessible via ctrl-x. Meaning you would make attack and immediately moved backwards from your opponent in the same turn not allowing them to retaliate. This is actually how fencers move... lightning strike hit and jump backward. Or maybe attack accessible by ctrl-x that can be done from one field away?

This would add a little bit of strategy to mindless pressing forward.

Have you played ToME4? You might like the melee classes in that game. A lot more activated skills and moving around the battlefield.

Melee in ADOM is usually kinda dull. The majority of my play is with casters for that reason.

[Stingray1]

ADOM is more of an adventure, puzzle solving roguelike, where tome is just straight forward fighting. Quite different games in the same genre.

One is fun for one type of player and the other boring and both are fun for some I suppose.

I enjoy both, but ADOM is much more fun for me. I like solving riddles and so. Tome I find a bit stale with the lack of creative gameplay it is just too much buff-my-character and very little um how-am-I-going-to-get-this-done. Your options are just too limited. Where on the ADOM side you often have numerous in one situation and it's up to you to pick them.

Great stuff TB.

P.S. I do believe TOME appeals to more because of these reasons. ;) and of course the UI I've used.

[Greyling]

Incidentally, what are some good duelist races? How does it work out to choose something like dark elf or mist elf in the hopes of being able to spellcast to make up for the lack of other ranged attack options? I really don't have a good feel for how easy it is for duelists to learn magic.

[grobblewobble]

Drakeling. Good race for any class, for duelist even better. Acid spit kills the karmic lizards.

[Stingray1]

Give it a shot, but you must remember you aren't going to find many spellbooks. There is atleast the guaranteed frost bolt one, which is better than nothing, for sure.

Your best options are evasion and wands otherwise or training missiles from the early game. When you hit that class power that basically gives you Mastery in your melee weapon of choice you aren't going to miss the training with it you missed out on.

P.S. I have no experience with using missiles as a duelist, so take what I say lightly.

[JellySlayer]

Drakeling is IMHO the best choice for duelist (granted, drakelings are the best choice for just about everything). Drakeling adds Food Preservation which is always great to have, and acid spit offers an alternative, reliable, missile attack.

I don't think there's any other choices that really stand out as exceptional. A lot of people like ratling duelists, but I think that's more of a thematic choice--ratlings aren't really all that good, actually: their stats and starting gear are pretty lousy, and while detect item status is very nice, it is a very, very difficult skill to train for most classes.

[Greyling]

Thanks again you guys. I actually already started a mist elf duelist character, but I will do a drakeling for my next one. How hard will the mist elf be to play?

I know mist elves take half melee damage, but I also thought that mana was a factor in magic defense. Is that true? If so it makes me think that my character will also do well against magical damage. And, of course, he has alertness to help with magical defense also.

That seems to leave mainly traps and maybe vortices(?) to worry about. Is damage from the vortices physical, or would it be mitigated by a high mana also?

[Stingray1]

I remember now, my duelist had mana battery from before the ToEF flame, so one can do it without wands, spells, missiles, potions or spitting. Quite impressive.

[JellySlayer]

Thanks again you guys. I actually already started a mist elf duelist character, but I will do a drakeling for my next one. How hard will the mist elf be to play?

I know mist elves take half melee damage, but I also thought that mana was a factor in magic defense. Is that true? If so it makes me think that my character will also do well against magical damage. And, of course, he has alertness to help with magical defense also.

AFAIK, ADOM does not have "magic defense". You can be resistant to elements or death rays, and you can be fast/lucky and dodge bolts, but that's it. Mana has an effect on your luck, but it's pretty minor. Alertness and speed are much more important for protecting yourself against magical attacks.

[Harwin]

AFAIK, ADOM does not have "magic defense". You can be resistant to elements or death rays, and you can be fast/lucky and dodge bolts, but that's it. Mana has an effect on your luck, but it's pretty minor. Alertness and speed are much more important for protecting yourself against magical attacks.

I thought it had a slight effect on resisting stat drains - which might matter more for a duelist due to having to engage in melee range.

[mike3]

I have to agree with Grobblewobble, we can't have them be powerful from start to finish. My Duelist victor did not use missiles or shields. The start was tricky with karmics, oozes, etc. But hey there has to be some challenges.

When they get that Mastery class power they are IMO just too strong actually.

I would rather say CK with the right corruptions is unbalanced and too strong from start to finish, thick gauntlets has to go flying.

So what did you do about karmics and oozes and so forth?

[Stingray1]

I recall accidentily hitting one ooze, the rest I evaded or used pets. Once you have your artifact weapon you don't worry about corrosion of course.