Effectiveness of Treasure Hunter

[Greyling]

So, recently I began to play characters with the treasure hunter talent as often as possible. And, also recently, I've also been getting a lot further in the game than I used to. Unfortunately, I'm becoming concerned that my increased success is mostly due to TH holding my hand.

I guess I wanted to get a feel from other people how many desirable items it is "normal" to find without treasure hunter. for instance, it seems like almost every playthough using treasure hunter that I have gotten either a RoDS or seven league boots by the ToEF (plus a lot of other great stuff). That is pretty atypical without TH, right?

On the one hand, this is great for a player like me who struggles to advance in the game. On the other hand, it makes me feel like any success I do have is probably due to the RNG being heavily weighted in my favor (at least in the case of item generation). I mean, I want to do well in the game, but I want to do well because I played well, not because the odds are stacked in my favor.

So, what do you girls/guys think? Is TH balanced, or is taking it like choosing (relatively) easy mode?

[Grond]

You'll find plenty of good items with or without TH. It's a worthwhile talent, but it doesn't really count as an 'easy mode' in my book. Personally, I think the PV talent line is a better choice in many cases. And certainly no one is going to look at your YAVP and call you a 'cheater' or a 'sissy' for taking TH.

[anon123]

I used not to bother with Treasure Hunter, taking talent lines that give less subtle benefits like stat or damage increases. Then I tried giving it a spin upon reading so much about it here and on the wiki, and upon clearing my first vault, the difference really showed. I think I got 1.5x as much loot in comparison to characters without the talent. Since then, I usually try to get TH right off the bat, with some exceptions (for example, with Chaos Knights I'd rather take just Alert, then follow the PV line first so that I can berserk nearly everything as a walking tank early on), but every PC I roll chooses it eventually.

As for your concerns that it might be an "easy mode", I think they're unfounded. TH merely means more items - not better items or more good items. More drops of course increases the chances of getting something good, but it's still the luck of the draw. If you're finding more RoDS and SLBs now, consider yourself lucky! It's very possible to take TH and never find either. :)

[JellySlayer]

You may find this (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/417-The-treasure-hunter-talent-sucks) thread an interesting read.

[Stingray1]

Sure the extra items helps, but I think you'll find it is you becoming more experienced that brings you further.

This is simple for you to test, play a few without the talent.

[JellySlayer]

I used not to bother with Treasure Hunter, taking talent lines that give less subtle benefits like stat or damage increases. Then I tried giving it a spin upon reading so much about it here and on the wiki, and upon clearing my first vault, the difference really showed. I think I got 1.5x as much loot in comparison to characters without the talent. Since then, I usually try to get TH right off the bat, with some exceptions (for example, with Chaos Knights I'd rather take just Alert, then follow the PV line first so that I can berserk nearly everything as a walking tank early on), but every PC I roll chooses it eventually.

As for your concerns that it might be an "easy mode", I think they're unfounded. TH merely means more items - not better items or more good items. More drops of course increases the chances of getting something good, but it's still the luck of the draw. If you're finding more RoDS and SLBs now, consider yourself lucky! It's very possible to take TH and never find either. :)

If memory serves, treasure hunter actually has very little effect in vaults. Vault monsters by default have a very high drop rate, so TH will rarely contribute. The effect of TH is strongest on monsters with very low drop rates--eg. killing a wererat and his summons in 1.1.1 will give you basically nothing except corpses without TH, but might give a nice pile of items with it.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Some years ago, in the long-burning flamewars about this, people came up with some calculations on code-dived data showing that the impact of TH was really small (10% more items or something like that). I don't know how they came to that conclusion, but in my humble opinion, it's bullshit. It flies in the face of experience. My feeling is that I get maybe 75% more items with TH than without it.

That said, I don't think TH is an easy mode or it detracts from the merit of your wins. It's rather a talent that allows you to scum and grind less. Players that don't take TH often go to the ID to stock up on common but useful items like potions of water or scrolls of ID, effectively achieving the same that TH gives you... only in a more boring way (at least for those of us that don't like to grind).

In fact, some people argue that TH makes the game harder because it prevents you from taking early-game survival talents (like the PV talents). This may be true, it's probably easier to take PV and speed talents and satisfy your item needs by grinding or scumming. Although to be honest, I have never thought early game difficulty to be so important. I'd rather lose characters in the early game having fun in SMC+UD dives, than lose them in the midgame when I have already invested a significant time in them.

I personally take TH in almost all my chars (with some exceptions for testing reasons, or when I want to be an Heir, etc.) because I don't like to grind. This allows me to complete the game in a non-grindy playstyle, not going to the ID and not unnecessarily spending time in already-explored levels, with all my basic item needs covered. And furthermore, I have an AoLS prepared for Khelly without the need for pool draining in around 50-70% of games.

[Kurasu]

I frequently choose 'Alert' only for Archers (because of valuable archery talents) or for PCs who have more than one slot in the beginning (with others focusing on Strength Of Will for Melee Weapon Master/, or potentially others to overcome racial deficiencies in their class). I have gotten further with lucky PCs more than I ever have TH PCs, and while the drop rate is definitely noticeable, I consider it a boon rather than a crutch. As others have said, you get *more* items, rather than *better* items with TH. And it's likely your skill that's getting you that much further rather than TH.

If you're overly worried about it, play a week deliberately avoiding Treasure Hunter and see how it goes in comparison!

[grobblewobble]

people came up with some calculations on code-dived data showing that the impact of TH was really small (10% more items or something like that).
No, the number of extra items you get is 1 for every 10 monsters you kill. Which may roughly double the item drops for normal non-vault non-summoned monsters.

My feeling is that TH dropped in value a bit in 1.2. The talent no longer has any effect on the gazillions of rats and spiders you're fighting.


grinding
I play about half my games with TH and half without and never feel a need to grind for items with any character. Unless you call clearing vaults grinding? I never enter the ID for items, don't restock shops, never pickpocket..

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I play about half my games with TH and half without and never feel a need to grind for items with any character. Unless you call clearing vaults grinding? I never enter the ID for items, don't restock shops, never pickpocket..
I didn't mean to say that if you don't take TH the game is impossible (or very difficult) without grinding. I also play characters without TH sometimes (for example to get Heir) and it's not that I feel the need to grind either, but without TH I'm more likely to have uncomfortably low amounts of items like water or scrolls of ID, so that I end up e.g. not blessing things that I would be more comfortable blessing.

So my feel is that without TH, grinding is not necessary (hardly anything is necessary in ADOM if you are careful), but it is rather convenient. While without TH, the amount of loot I find allows me to play comfortably enough that it wouldn't even make much sense to grind.

Of course, this all depends on the amount of loot each player is comfortable with. For example Stingray always says that there are too many items in ADOM, even without TH. But I don't share this, I like playing with a relatively large and diverse toolbox (hence one of my weak points as an ADOM player is that I tend to be more burdened than I should).

[grobblewobble]

Aye, that's also how I feel. Having more water and so on is convenient. I basically take TH if I feel like attempting an ultra or at least want to leave the possibility open, or if I play a wizard for extra spellbooks.

[Kurasu]

... but without TH I'm more likely to have uncomfortably low amounts of items like water or scrolls of ID...

I'm a huge fan of picking pockets. I don't consider it grindy; I consider it fun. A little manual lotto. And because of this, with or without TH, I'm never at a loss for water (although sometimes I have issues with scrolls of ID depending on my character's literacy level). So I admit, I hadn't thought at all about this aspect of TH. It's a non-issue for me, personally, due to my playing style. For me, the biggest thing I notice without TH is the lack of extra weapons/armor. And even that's not a game-breaker, since again as I said, it's luck either way as to whether you get the good ones.

[Greyling]

You may find this (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/417-The-treasure-hunter-talent-sucks) thread an interesting read.

Thank you for the link. I did try to tackle that thread, but I'm nowhere close to being done with the 51(!!!) pages. But I will keep reading. It looks like the initial point laid out were that code diving showed there to be a relatively modest increase in drop rate, but actual in-game experience showed (or made it seem?) like it was much more significant.

I have a feeling this is the sort of thing that it is very difficult to get to the bottom of. But the length and intensity of the argument over whether TH is too good or completely worthless at least makes me feel like it is not a forgone conclusion that it is overpowered.

Some people have suggested that I just play characters without it to get a feel for how effective it is, and I have recently, but it is hard for me to tell how much the apparent difference in drops is just my imagination. Anyway, I appreciate all the input.

[Soirana]

It looks like the initial point laid out were that code diving showed there to be a relatively modest increase in drop rate, but actual in-game experience showed (or made it seem?) like it was much more significant.

No just some people did not understand what info meant.

I'll give example:
Killing 100 dragons [let say greater vault] - TH gives you nothing.
Killing 100 rats [let say 4 really big rat tension rooms] - TH gives like 9-9.5 extra items.

In other words TH is designed for sucking rat lovers and not fancy dragon-slayers:)

[Greyling]

No just some people did not understand what info meant.

I'll give example:
Killing 100 dragons [let say greater vault] - TH gives you nothing.
Killing 100 rats [let say 4 really big rat tension rooms] - TH gives like 9-9.5 extra items.

In other words TH is designed for sucking rat lovers and not fancy dragon-slayers:)

So, it only increases the drop chance if the enemy wouldn't have dropped anything otherwise? Is that what you are saying?

It also seems to be assumed that it does not increase the rarity of drops. Is that accurate?

[TheCableGuy]

I love TH. Sure, You get A LOT of trash but it also means more early money.
And then, later in the game, you get a seemingly never ending supply of potions, scrolls, and wands.

So, overall, TH is a Fantastic Talent, depending on Luck and what you can do with what you find.

[JellySlayer]

So, it only increases the drop chance if the enemy wouldn't have dropped anything otherwise? Is that what you are saying?

It also seems to be assumed that it does not increase the rarity of drops. Is that accurate?

Yes, that is right.

[Greyling]

Yes, that is right.

I don't know what danger level normally allows generation of eternium broadswords (I looked on the wiki, and it wasn't listed), but I could have sworn I found one at about D:10 a couple of games ago. Could that really have happened without TH?

[JellySlayer]

I believe so. There aren't that many items above DL:10, actually.

[Grey]

Treasure hunter should only be taken with wizards, necromancers, bards, archers and merchants. With all other classes taking it is essentially crippling your character compared to the other benefits you could be having. My own testing shows that 86% of characters will have almost no noticeable effect from Treasure Hunter, and may even receive less items from dragons and grave-digging due to the item recount effect.

[Greyling]

...and may even receive less items from dragons and grave-digging due to the item recount effect.

I meant to ask you earlier, but, what is that? I've never heard of the item recount effect before.

[Grey]

I meant to ask you earlier, but, what is that? I've never heard of the item recount effect before.

Oh, it's just an interesting effect in-game linked with tree-shaking that generally means you shouldn't trust anything a forum user says ;)

[Greyling]

Oh, it's just an interesting effect in-game linked with tree-shaking that generally means you shouldn't trust anything a forum user says ;)

Oh, you mean how you can shake trees to get that really cool artifact. I didn't realize the item recount effect was triggered by that event. I should have guessed there was a downside, given how powerful the artifact is.

It's the reason I usually play druids.

[Kurasu]

Shaking trees? I thought it was 'h'andling trees. You know, how you usually just get a bunch of leaves, but revery once in a while you manage to grab that artifact that burns down the forest with one single stroke?

Er, perhaps I should have added spoiler space here, right? I mean, *leaves*...

[Soirana]

Shaking trees? I thought it was 'h'andling trees. You know, how you usually just get a bunch of leaves, but revery once in a while you manage to grab that artifact that burns down the forest with one single stroke?

I feel strange urge for post deletion again......

[gosos]

gnome wizard with treasure hunter significanlty increases your spellcasting books. If you get a good supply of strength spells you can carry most of the junk you find and sell it. this radically helps make up for the loss of gold revenues in 1.2 from the casino, etc...

Is there really a good reason not to get treasure hunter? Most talents don't seem to help all that much. I generally like to take a risky start. If I die early, I dont waste alot of time. I always go to the unremarkable dungeon and try to crown early and do atleast 1 post crown (I do 2 if I can find a holy symbol) and I also eat the oracle and get rid of doom. It took me 50 tries with a gnome/wizard to get through, but when I did I was uber badass.

treasure hunter is hugely enhanced if you get alot of casts of the spell that increases carrying capacity (I cant remember the name). so you can haul your stash back and sell it. this translates into more stats.

my take is, why does it matter if i die early? its better to gamble and when i eventually make it to a certain point to be stronger, then to get attached to a character to die much later on.

[gosos]

i also want to note that taking TH makes early crowning more practical. in 1.2 you no longer get drops when you sacrifice mobs. This is a problem since you can run out of food while sacrificing. having TH increases your chance of food drops since this is a standard drop. staying fed can be an issue to TH. Since if you have to run back to town to get more food more often, your taking more of a piety hit since you burn more time outside than in a dungeon. crowning early is partially useful if it doesn't take forever... it gets boring if you do that and makes it more likely you will screw up.

also. if you get fireball and go to the tree level in CoC... TH is real nice. you can fry the trees with it. especially if you get your Wilpower to 32.

[JellySlayer]

Is there really a good reason not to get treasure hunter? Most talents don't seem to help all that much. I generally like to take a risky start. If I die early, I dont waste alot of time. I always go to the unremarkable dungeon and try to crown early and do atleast 1 post crown (I do 2 if I can find a holy symbol) and I also eat the oracle and get rid of doom. It took me 50 tries with a gnome/wizard to get through, but when I did I was uber badass.

It depends on your playing style. I can't imagine rolling 50 wizards and trying to get through the UD. I'd rather get through on my first try and not need to rely on dumb luck. Given the choice between having 50 wizards die with TH or one with Quick/Very Quick/Greased Lightning surviving, I'll take the latter.

That said, I think wizards and other casters probably benefit more from TH than a lot of other characters due to the fact that a lack of spells early on can be quite crippling. They also have less need of, say, ranged attacks, so the very desirable Good Shot/Keen Shot/Quick Shot/Eagle Eye/Lightning Shot talent line is not so important. For characters more heavily dependent on missile attacks--farmers, say--you're, IMHO, much better off abandoning TH for more reliable missile prowess. I don't think that wizards are necessarily the best metric of the value of talents anyway, because wizards have a lot of advantages compared to an average class.

When I play my doomed characters, I almost always skip TH these days. Speed is just too important in the early game to sacrifice for items later. If I can't outrun a ghul by level 6, I won't make it to level 7.

[anon123]

in 1.2 you no longer get drops when you sacrifice mobs.

You never did. Sacrificed monsters only drop stuff they randomly picked up and, after prerelease 1, fixed things like the black torc from Keethrax.

[Stingray1]

You never did. Sacrificed monsters only drop stuff they randomly picked up and, after prerelease 1, fixed things like the black torc from Keethrax.

Monsters no longer pick up artifacts. Which is both cool, wrt black torc never getting cursed, and shit wrt RcT not brought towards you when the whole level is filled with chaos spawn.

[gosos]

@jellyslayer: what is a doomed character?

[Stingray1]

The doomed intrinsic basically means your character has terrible luck, more and experieced monsters will spawn, he is less likely to hit and pass other checks, he will be hit more often and harder. A truly awful state to have your character in.
You say you often eat the oracle, well that dooms the character. Jellyslayer challenges himself by praying to his god at the start of the game until it is so pissed that it dooms his character. He then keeps the doomed intrinsic for the entire game or wears dooming equipment to remain doomed.

[gut]

> upon clearing my first vault, the difference really showed

absolutely, and also in items just found on the ground too, I noticed a big difference in that as well

> My feeling is that I get maybe 75% more items with TH than without it.

That is nothing compared to my feelings. I get fully erect at the thought of th.

[Greyling]

> upon clearing my first vault, the difference really showed

absolutely, and also in items just found on the ground too, I noticed a big difference in that as well

> My feeling is that I get maybe 75% more items with TH than without it.

That is nothing compared to my feelings. I get fully erect at the thought of th.

This is comedy gold. Is there any way that could be incorporated into the in-game description for TH?

[Laukku]

Monsters no longer pick up artifacts.

I always liked the distant possibility that a ratling duelist would be summoned in ChAoS, and disarm the TotRR, which is then picked up by Andy. No chance for that now. :-(

[Stingray1]

I always liked the distant possibility that a ratling duelist would be summoned in ChAoS, and disarm the TotRR, which is then picked up by Andy. No chance for that now. :-(

Well, the sensible thing to do is to revert back to them being able to pick up artifacts, as there is no more need with the current behaviour.

Monsters destroy the wall they occupy and monsters drop the items they picked up when sacced or turned into wretching masses of primal chaosness and succumb to the universe.

[JellySlayer]

Well, the sensible thing to do is to revert back to them being able to pick up artifacts, as there is no more need with the current behaviour.

Monsters destroy the wall they occupy and monsters drop the items they picked up when sacced or turned into wretching masses of primal chaosness and succumb to the universe.

I'm pretty sure/hoping desperately this is a bug that will be fixed. It makes no sense.