Casting wish from potion of wonder before khelly?

[kordi82]

Just generated orcish merchant on prerelease 16. Had a potion of wonder so drinking it was my first action... and I got Wish... It requires 5550 PP to cast meaning 2725 PP on silvernight. Now I am wondering if there is any way in hell I will be able to cast it before khelly to give him AoLS. I believe I once did this with a bard, who got wish with one of his class powers. However, I believe that his requirement was 3000 or 1500 during silvernight... and it was like "a few" adom releses back...


To be honest I seriously doubt that this is possible without some ridiculous scumming and most likely it is easier to find AoLS than actually cast the spell... but maybe someone has some bright idea I do not know of...

[Greyling]

Just generated orcish merchant on prerelease 16. Had a potion of wonder so drinking it was my first action... and I got Wish... It requires 5550 PP to cast meaning 2725 PP on silvernight. Now I am wondering if there is any way in hell I will be able to cast it before khelly to give him AoLS. I believe I once did this with a bard, who got wish with one of his class powers. However, I believe that his requirement was 3000 or 1500 during silvernight... and it was like "a few" adom releses back...

To be honest I seriously doubt that this is possible without some ridiculous scumming and most likely it is easier to find AoLS than actually cast the spell... but maybe someone has some bright idea I do not know of...

What happens if you exhaust yourself casting a spell that expensive? Certain death?

If so you could always cast it while wearing an amulet of lifesaving...

...

...

...Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[cobaltofdoom]

Unlikely w/o scumming. Casting yourself to death with an amulet of life saving saves your life but the spell doesn't go off.

http://ancardia.wikia.com/wiki/Archmage this covers a lot of good ways to be able to cast the spell. Ignore the need to be able to cast it from the book. There are rooms that reduce the cost of spells as well. Might help.

[Greyling]

Unlikely w/o scumming. Casting yourself to death with an amulet of life saving saves your life but the spell doesn't go off.

Cobalt, it was a joke. He was going to use the wish for an AoLS. If he already had one, he wouldn't need to make the wish to begin with.

This brings up an interesting question, though. Kordi is going to quite a bit of effort here to find a way to cast wish so he can Khelevaster, but I've heard veterans say you are all but guaranteed to get a wish if you drain all the pools in darkforge. Is Kordi overreacting, or is getting a wish from a pool harder than some of you have made it sound like?

[kordi82]

Cobalt, it was a joke. He was going to use the wish for an AoLS. If he already had one, he wouldn't need to make the wish to begin with.

This brings up an interesting question, though. Kordi is going to quite a bit of effort here to find a way to cast wish so he can Khelevaster, but I've heard veterans say you are all but guaranteed to get a wish if you drain all the pools in darkforge. Is Kordi overreacting, or is getting a wish from a pool harder than some of you have made it sound like?

When you say veterans... you probably mean someone like me... ;P Have been playing the game since late 90s.

And you are faaar from certain to get wish from pool draining in darkforge. No idea what are the statistics but from my experience it is below 10%.

[grobblewobble]

Chance to get a wish from the DF pools is close to 50%. (If you remove doom status whenever you get it.)

[Blasphemous]

Unless you only get 5-6 pools (it happened) and 3 of them dry out on first sip...

[GordonOverkill]

From my experience it's definitely more than 10% chance. Don't know if it's 50%, but I'd say that I get at least one pool-wish in at least one out of three games. I always make sure to be as lucky as possible while drinking from pools... can be a little tedious, but it's definitly worth it.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

In my experience, I'd say it's probably about 60% of the times if you do it right (i.e. removing dooming as many times as possible - I also always wear the blessed ankh, although I don't know if it has an influence).

With TH, in around 60% of the games I already get an AoLS without the need for draining pools, so putting it all together, it is pretty infrequent that I need to let Khelavaster die.

[grobblewobble]

The probability to get a wish from one pool is equal to 1/17 (chances to dry up versus wish are sixteen to one)
On average there are 10 pools, half the floor space. So the chance to get a wish: 1 - (16/17)^10 = 45%

Luck (intrinsic) has no influence on pool sipping (except that doom prevents wish).

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Nice math. I suppose I've been lucky (or optimistic) if I was guessing 60% then.

Note however that one typically finds a pool in the UD, and it is also possible to find one in other dungeons, so the average number of pools found in the game by that point is probably 11 point something, boosting the chance to 50%.

[Dogbreath]

I'd say the 50% figure is pretty accurate as I get a wish from pool sipping in about half my games. I've actually gotten more wishes from pools in the UD than Darkforge. Probably just confirmation bias, though...

[JellySlayer]

In my experience, I'd say it's probably about 60% of the times if you do it right (i.e. removing dooming as many times as possible - I also always wear the blessed ankh, although I don't know if it has an influence).

With TH, in around 60% of the games I already get an AoLS without the need for draining pools, so putting it all together, it is pretty infrequent that I need to let Khelavaster die.

These numbers seemed very high to me, so I ran some numbers based on the YAVP forums:

Total winners in YAVP forum is 537. Overall, 229 of those save Khelly, and 318 take treasure hunter.
Of the 229 players who save Khelly, 174 had treasure hunter and 55 did not.

So:
42 percent (229/537) of winners save Khelly.
If you have TH, your odds of saving Khelly are 55 percent (174/318)
If you don't have TH, your odds of saving Khelly are 25 percent (55/219)

This includes saving Khelly by pools. The way I ran the search, this also includes reported non-standard wins (eg. Ironman), that can't possibly save Khelly. It also includes extremely scummed wins (eg. wish engines) that are pretty much guaranteed to save him. But that's a ballpark approximation for your odds of saving him.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

But not all the players want to go through the hassle (and dangers) of draining the pools in order to save him, I suppose a fair number of them don't (at the beginning, I didn't dare do it myself). And there are also players that think it is more important to use early-game wishes for immediate survivavility rather than for an AoLS. So those stats, although very interesting, are probably underestimated. They say how many players did save Khelly, but not how many could have done so if they had made everything possible to get a wish and to use it precisely on that.

The stats do hint at the effectiveness of TH though, if TH characters are saving Khelly more than twice the time... especially taking into account that TH does not affect pools, so those stats would imply that the chance of finding an AoLS/RoDS is multiplied by significantly more than 2 with TH.

[JellySlayer]

Sure, but the number of players willing to go through very extreme lengths to save Khelly is probably not so large. I mean, if you're playing 1.1.1 and are willing to use a gremlin bomb, your odds of saving Khelly are nearly 100 percent. What I'd say is that these figures represent, reasonably well, the probability that an average player, using typical methods, will save Khelly.

[mike3]

In my experience, I'd say it's probably about 60% of the times if you do it right (i.e. removing dooming as many times as possible - I also always wear the blessed ankh, although I don't know if it has an influence).

With TH, in around 60% of the games I already get an AoLS without the need for draining pools, so putting it all together, it is pretty infrequent that I need to let Khelavaster die.

I'm curious about this, since I've never done it before: Doesn't it spend up a significant amount of game time crossing the wilderness to reach other dungeons containing altars to do the offerings to remove the dooming? With the 90-day limit (and now 180-day limits and beyond in the new versions) and all that... And what about pool aging, when you're playing a shorter-lived race?

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I'm curious about this, since I've never done it before: Doesn't it spend up a significant amount of game time crossing the wilderness to reach other dungeons containing altars to do the offerings to remove the dooming? With the 90-day limit (and now 180-day limits and beyond in the new versions) and all that... And what about pool aging, when you're playing a shorter-lived race?
In my experience you don't get doomed that often, maybe twice on average, four times if you are very unlucky. The CoC has a guaranteed altar and it is not so far. So pool draining does put some pressure on the clock but it's not that bad.

For example, my latest winner (a ratling duelist, http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/12639-YAVP-S-k-is-the-ratling-duelist-(1-2-0p14)) did it, and he finished in 91 days, meaning that the gate was closed by day 90. But even if he had spent some days more and gotten some background corruption, 6 blessed SoCR's is 6 blessed SoCR's.

About aging, yes, that's dangerous. I'd probably think twice before pool-sipping with an orc or a troll.

[Stingray1]

It does take some gametime, but not too much. Most often you will have an altar in the CoC and that's not so far from DF.
In one game I was running to TF:2, which was both funny and cool.

I have aged an orc to death in DF, so it sure can happen.
The rewards for saving Khelavaster is worth it, I suppose and if you are eager for an ultra an the AoLS haven't come naturally the pools are probably your best bet.

I'm standing next to Khelly at the moment without an AoLS, contemplating. :)

[gut]

> What I'd say is that these figures represent, reasonably well, the probability that an average player, using typical methods, will save Khelly.

average players using typical methods beat adom? Your brain has turned purple.

[Silfir]

> What I'd say is that these figures represent, reasonably well, the probability that an average player, using typical methods, will save Khelly.

average players using typical methods beat adom? Your brain has turned purple.

Average "player who beats ADOM". Already included.

[grobblewobble]

I'm standing next to Khelly at the moment without an AoLS, contemplating. :)

Khelavaster: *cough* *sputter*
PC: "Hmm, I could try to save you, but is it worth it? Six scrolls of chaos resistance is a pretty good reward."
Khelavaster: *gaaah..*
PC: "Then again, amulets of life saving don't grow on trees, you know. Can I really be bothered? I don't know.."
Khelavaster: *gurb*
PC: "I'll just think about it here while munching on a few cooked lizards."

[gut]

You missed the point... Here, I try again.

> Of the 229 players who save Khelly, 174 had treasure hunter and 55 did not.
>...
> If you have TH, your odds of saving Khelly are 55 percent (174/318)

That is like saying
"Of the 229 people who killed a deer today, 174 took a gun with them when they left the house.
So your odds of killing a deer if you leave the house with a gun are 55 percent."

[JellySlayer]

I'm eliminating the number of players who die before reaching Khelly because they aren't relevant to the calculation. Ideally, I'd include all characters who reach Khelly and either save or don't save, but there isn't an easy bank of characters that meet those criteria available. Winners are a pretty easy bank of characters to look at, because all winners have passed Khelly, one way or the other.

[Stingray1]

A more interesting statistic for me would be poolsips that saved Khelly.

There is no doubt that TH is a great talent and there is no way to argue that fact away I'm afraid.

[gut]

IMO, a more accurate way of looking at it is this:

Of the 318 winners in the db, 229 cared to save khelly and the rest didn't (as
anyone can save khelly in any game if they care to). So it isn't surprising
that 2/3 of those players were treasure-hunter-loving scummers. No doubt
the other 1/3 had enough sense to take helpful talents and just pool sip.