Chaos Knights and Duelists: A Discussion

[cobaltofdoom]

I haven't been hit by an urge to try either one of these really (at least more then a couple quick deaths at the start)
Duelists seem quite limited in their 1 handed limit with no shields/2h weaps and Chaos Knights seem to be crippled and pointless (if they stray from alignment)
unless you go directly for chaos god (Ultimate or other) Just seem very static and uninteresting.

What other other peoples experiences with them? Very welcoming of opposing views.

[anon123]

If you're willing to reroll a little, Chaos Knights can be absolute powerhouses right from the start. I've started many with 30+ PV. With stats like that, you can just berserk everything early on, without breaking a sweat (excepting claw bugs and karmic lizards :p). That and the extremely powerful crowning gifts make up for the fact everyone hates them in Ancardia, at least partially. I recommend the Candle starsign, since CKs don't start with the Healing skill and cannot obtain it without converting (which otherwise means you'll heal really slowly, unless playing a troll or having the corrupted tissue corruption). Once you get to level 18, you essentially get free Grand Mastery on any weapon class you have or can get a few levels on.

[JellySlayer]

I think both classes are pretty interesting to play.

Duelists are a lot like monks in many ways. They have several restrictions in place that makes them a bit tricky to play and limits your equipment in different ways, but they make up for it by having some pretty considerable advantages. They lose a lot of DV by not having a shield, but they're very fast and do lots and lots of damage. I like that it forces players to move out of their comfort zone--you can't just play spear and shield all the time.

Chaos knights are a tricky class. They are probably one of the most luck-dependent classes in the game, in fact. If you start with scales + acid blood + stilts + regeneration, you're pretty much a god early on. If you start with stiff muscles or wasting tissues, you're gonna be in for a really tough game. Their class powers are quite strong, and you have to balance the power gained by extra corruptions versus the risk/damage they can cause. I think/hope that TB introduces a bit more useful chaotic questing for them--they really at very least should be able to get Healing via killing Jharod--but, again, they require a very different style of play from what a lot of people are used to. And like anon says, their starting PV is just godly.

Honestly, IMHO the most disappointing new entrants are ratlings. I've found them to be very mediocre. I like detect item status, but it trains terribly for most classes, and ratlings seem to start with just terrible stats and poor starting gear, and none of their other skills are really worth mentioning. They're probably on par or maybe worse than humans in my books.

[cobaltofdoom]

Is it at all viable though to stray from chaotic for Chaos Knight?

[JellySlayer]

If you have fire resistance, you can stray as long as you want. You can win on another alignment even, if you feel like it. It's better to stay chaotic though, because you lose out on your excellent class powers if you change alignment.

[Stingray1]

For me it was very interesting to play without healing. One gets so used to not worry about HP not generating. And then you do a few lithiums or CKs and you learn to preserve HP.
Was really fun challenges.

[grobblewobble]

Is it at all viable though to stray from chaotic for Chaos Knight?

Switching temporarily, to do all the quests, is not that hard. You need to get either fire resistance or immune to pain. Then you can easily convert yourself at an altar. Doing the N / L quests without class powers is no big deal. So many classes get crappy class powers, having none is a bit like playing one of those classes. At least you still have good Str, PV, To and good skills, it's better than playing a thief.

Switching permanently and ending the game non-chaotic is really dull. I did a CK UNE, it's viable, just not much fun. You can still hope for a great crowning gift, at least.

[anon123]

Chaos knights are a tricky class. (...) they require a very different style of play from what a lot of people are used to.

This is correct. I like to see them as something for those who are already familiar with the game, and want a different challenge. And although there are still a few rough edges and things to improve, they currently succeed at this.

But as awesome and powerful as they are, I wouldn't at all recommend them to a new player. Too many doors are shut for them right from the beginning.


Is it at all viable though to stray from chaotic for Chaos Knight?

Switching alignments has the following disadvantages:

-2 to all stats
you lose all your class powers
you take a little fire damage continuously


The first is hardly noticeable and worth the exchange. The second isn't a big deal either. You won't have many of them at that point in the game where the quest rewards are highly useful.

It's the third point that's the most annoying disadvantage (once you're past offering 200 gold pieces on a cross-aligned altar one by one, that is; there seems to be a huge penalty on positive alignment changes). Not because the damage is life-threatening (you can nullify it with -Fire), but because you get spam messages about the pain practically every other turn, even if you aren't being damaged. It's highly annoying. You feel fiery pain in your stomach, you feel fiery pain in your stomach, you feel fiery pain in your stomach... someone give these guys an antacid already.

[szopin]

because you get spam messages

RFE to silence if no damage dealt?

[Greyling]

RFE to silence if no damage dealt?

There's already a "no spam" feature being discussed in a recent RFE about incorporating ADOM sage features into future prereleases. Go vote for it!

[Saracen]

I really like the Chaos Knight playstyle atm. I rolled a nice one with decent corruptions, managed to livesac enough for the armor crowning gift (pv +35 or something). I decided not to remove the armor in towns/shops.... super high pv allowed me to kill shopkeepers and most of DT even at low level. Eventually Glod killed me, but that was my own stupidity. I could have escaped and heal up. I will roll another CK soon and finish the game killing everybody I come across. Very fun :)

[Stingray1]

Be careful of Dak, he's pretty tough even for a low level CK.

[Saracen]

I had no problems with him, maybe I was just lucky...

[grobblewobble]

The only monsters I find difficult as a chaos knight (especially when lucky enough to get the armor) are monsters that punch through armor. For example muscular dwarves do, they can be surprisingly dangerous.

[Saracen]

Agree, they took most of my health while in DT.

[Stingray1]

Well, wearing the best armour is a whole different story.

[plllizzz9]

They lose a lot of DV by not having a shield

That point about Duelists really stops mattering after level 12, I found that the 40+ DV they hit even without a shield by then tends to be enough to eviscerate most opposition with their attack speed increases - and unless another character grabs a tower crystal shield by level 12, their DV tends to be -lower-

[grobblewobble]

That point about Duelists really stops mattering after level 12

Before level 12 it doesn't matter much either, because if you find a really good shield that early you can just use it. (You don't lose out on too much yet; giving up the class powers is not yet that much of a loss.)

[Saracen]

I played one duelist so far, got him to Casino with no problems. I decided to rob it, but lot was changed since last time :) I tried to teleport big guard first, surprise surprise, he was resistant and got mad. Went downstairs to kill him... After that I put doors around stairs and get on with the robbery. Teleported to stairs...impossible. Then I tried some other spots around it. Managed to get in the "room" I created only to find out it was full of guards. Paralyzed and hacked to death... Need a new plan next time. It was too easy before to rob Casino, I like the new changes. Duelist is awesome if you have a good weapon, I had Kingslayer.