Aspects of Adom which discourage from playing

[dfTruF]

Greetings.

Beside the fact that Adom has many cool ideas, this game has few aspects which can bring player to dislike of this game, in my opinion. And those are not coding bugs.

The most visible are:

- Rarity of potions for regenerating vital stats, and rarity of items used for [non]controlled teleportation of player from critical situations (which occur often), especially in the early game when character is weak and not developed in skills/magics.

- Non-elastic system for identifying items, addicted mostly to altars.
(Common items should be automatically identified by the character, and this should be based on level of: perception, intelligence, experience with using specified item type, overall professional experience. Beside of that, shops should have service for identifying advanced items, which surpass abilities of a character).

- Top-down condemnation of a character for the chaotic path, sooner or later, because there are limited number of scrolls of chaos resistance.
(Player should choose which path he/she wants follow to the end)

- Lack of throwing items command. Character can throw only items that can be treated as missiles.

- Lack of object examination after fully identify it (examine if it can be destroyed by fire, cold, acid, etc., and other hints, which are helpful for better understanding the nature of this object, on other rogue-likes this feature is known as "monster memory").

- No possibility to add an inscription directly to an item (for player's customizable command shortcuts, or for player's individual likings). Everyone who played Angband knows how useful this tool can be.

- No possibility to automatic pick up items which match those in inventory.

- In order to play efficiently and accomplish Adom, player must study external guides (at least one partially) from internet, sometimes even spoilers, or consult with other players about author's deep secrets.
(Games which are made in good style have all necessary amount of informations, for playing and accomplish, in the game, not outside somewhere hidden in "author's garden")

Does anybody have accomplished Adom using only informations that are placed inside the game?

[Stingray1]

I have. Most everything you mentioned is wrong. The game works perfectly as is. In fact it's the work of a game developer genius. IMO

[GordonOverkill]

Most of these problems will vanish with exprience.



- Rarity of potions for regenerating vital stats, and rarity of items used for [non]controlled teleportation of player from critical situations (which occur often), especially in the early game when character is weak and not developed in skills/magics.

You start with at least two prayers that allow you to completely heal your hitpoints. If you play carefully, in most runs this is enough to obtain another method of healing (healing skill, herbs etc.). Also there is already a guaranteed method of teleportation availible in every game. It is not all too easy to get, but maybe that's a good thing because of the huge power of this item.


- Non-elastic system for identifying items, addicted mostly to altars.
(Items should be automatically identified by the character, and this should be based on level of: perception, intelligence, experience with using specified item type, overall professional experience. Beside of that, shops should have service for identifying difficult items, which surpass abilities of a character).

You can (at least partly) identify items by: weight; shop price in relation to other items; altars; letting monsters pick them up; detect item status skill; appraising skill; scrolls of identify; first dwarven quest; possibility to use in certain equipment slots; name; and ofcourse by equipping the stuff. Don't know, maybe I missed some means, but if you know how to do it, there are already several ways to get information about your equipment.


- Top-down condemnation of a character for the chaotic path, sooner or later, because there are limited number of scrolls of chaos resistance.
(Player should choose which path he/she wants follow to the end)

Those scrolls of chaos resistance have nothing to do with your character's allignment. Maybe try to find out for yourself what they do ;-)


- In order to play efficiently and accomplish Adom, player must study external guides (at least one partially) from internet, sometimes even spoilers, or consult with other players about author's deep secrets.
(Games which are made in good style have all necessary amount of informations, for playing and accomplish, in the game, not outside somewhere hidden in "author's garden") Does anybody have accomplished Adom using only informations that are placed inside the game?

We've got a couple of players here on the forum who have won their first games completely unspoiled, so it's definitely possible, if you just remember the reasons of your characters' deaths and try to avoid them in future runs. Still you might be right in this point because there are discussions going on about the necessity to include additional sources of information, for example for ultra endings.

[dfTruF]

Stingray1 can you explain your opinion in more detailed way?

[dfTruF]

You start with at least two prayers that allow you to completely heal your Hitpoints. If you play carefully, in most runs this is enough to obtain another method of healing (healing skill, herbs etc.). Also there is already a guaranteed method of teleportation availible in every game. It is not all too easy to get, but maybe that's a good thing because of the sheer power of this item.

Yes, correct, but those information are not obtained from the game guide (inside the game). From what source can player know that gods can help at least two times? From what source can player know about method for teleportation?



You can (at least partly) identify items by: weight; shop price in relation to other items; altars; letting monsters pick them up; detect item status skill; appraising skill; scrolls of identify; first dwarven quest; possibility to use in certain equipment slots; name; and ofcourse by equipping the stuff. Don't know, maybe I missed some means, but if you know how to do it, there are already several ways to get information about your equipment.


Yes, but common sense tells that common items should be fully identified by character's perception, intelligence and experience, right?



Those scrolls of chaos resistance have nothing to do with your character's allignment. Maybe try to find out for yourself what they do ;-)


Saying about top-down condemnation to chaotic path I was talking about inexorable mutations, because of limited scrolls of resistance to chaotic powers.

[GordonOverkill]

Yes, correct, but those information are not obtained from the game guide. From what source player can know that gods can help at least two times? From what source player can know about method for teleportation?

I've found out about the prayers because I saw in the keybindings that praying was possible and I just tried it out in certain situations (it does not only help for regeneration). There was definitely no external research needed for that and honestly, if you know that you can pray, isn't it kind of trivial to try it in moments of need? The guaranteed source of teleportation I found by accident, but if you walk through that place many times, you are almost guaranteed to eventually find it by accident. And since this location is more or less senseless without this thing, it is very likely that most players will go there quite often in order to find out more about it.


Yes, but common sense tells that common items should be identified by character's perception, intelligence and experience, right?

You get a name and a weight for most items. For the details, you have to use them, which seems okay to me.


Saying about top-down condemnation to chaotic path I was talking about inexorable mutations.

Well, these mutations are one of the characteristic stand-alone features of ADOM and they somehow belong to the plot and are explained in-game, so if you really hate them from deepest heart, maybe ADOM is just the wrong game for you? Anyway, I play the game for five years now and I saw only one single character lose the game directly to corruption, so it is definitely possible to deal with that... and corruption only beginns to really matter in the late game, so as an unexperienced player there is almost no need to care about it at all. But even then there are at least three different means of getting rid of it, and many different possibilities of obtaining these means.

All in all ADOM is surely not an easy game (it REALLY isn't, kordi ;-) ), and you have to spend some time in order to really get into it, but I can say from experience that this time is well-spent. In the end there are not many games around which kept me motivated for such a long time and entertained me so much during all these years.

[dfTruF]

You get a name and a weight for most items. For the details, you have to use them, which seems okay to me.


Still, this explanation doesn't satisfy me because identifying items in specified fantasy world should be based on character's perception, intelligence and experience with regard to using this type of items in the past (not only this exact item), and with regard to character's profession in fantasy world, where character breathes. In Adom this is based on player's playing experience (and playing with experimentations), which breathes in post-modernism world, here and now. :)

[GordonOverkill]

So you mean that a fighter should be able to directly get some more information about a weapon, a wizard about a book etc.? No bad idea, I think ;-) At least there is a little of this already present in ADOM, because if you find exactly the same item again that you have already identified once, the second one will already be identified. Anyway, at least this is nothing that you should specially complain about ADOM, because this way (unidentified items) is standard in the big majority of the RPGs I played, so this would rather discourage players from playing the whole genre and not ADOM in special.

[grobblewobble]

If you find an "orange potion", the player knows it's carrot juice (and what to do with it) before the character knows it. Is that what you mean?

[dfTruF]

So you mean that a fighter should be able to directly get some more information about a weapon, a wizard about a book etc.?

Of course, this is logical, and common sense for me. More points of perception, intelligence, experience, bless,... should mean more details about new found item, through character's scrutiny.

[GordonOverkill]

Of course, this is logical, and common sense for me. More points of perception, intelligence, experience, bless,... should mean more details about new found item, through character's scrutiny.

Okay, and it really spoils your fun that you have to equip a sword in order to know how much damage it does? Never heared anybody complain about this point before and to me personally it is also no problem at all...

[kordi82]

Greetings.

Beside the fact that Adom has many cool ideas, this game has few aspects which can bring player to dislike of this game, in my opinion. And those are not coding bugs.

The most visible are:



Probably the worst post ever.... not a single sentence that actually makes sense...

[dfTruF]

If you find an "orange potion", the player knows it's carrot juice (and what to do with it) before the character knows it. Is that what you mean?

What I mean is that orange potion can be carrot juice, or poison from some mushroom, or even urine, for not experienced character, for character with not specified level of perception, intelligence, or skill connected with profession of creating potions.

[GordonOverkill]

Of course it can be, but this is a video game and so it hast to simplify reality somehow in order to be playable. You could also complain about the fact that ADOM characters don't have to sleep, take a shit or feel an urge to masturbate from time to time x-D But hell, why should you? If you want absolute realism, go smith yourself a sword and go out into the woods for your own adventure!

[dfTruF]

Okay, and it really spoils your fun that you have to equip a sword in order to know how much damage it does?

Why equip? Just walk next to it, or look at it. After all some cursed items stick to hands.

[asdf]

Okay, and it really spoils your fun that you have to equip a sword in order to know how much damage it does? Never heared anybody complain about this point before and to me personally it is also no problem at all...
Weaponsmiths could see weapons damage on level 50. It is really convenient, and it would be amazing if they could have it sooner.

If most of the ordinary characters could do the same to the normal low-level equipment (not seeing B/U/C, just stats) - it would be amazing to throw this [+0, +0] clothes right away. Thats just a clothes. You see dozens of them in your character life. However... this one is strange... it is different... no, i dont see any simular before... i think that i should try to equip it to see effects... *RNGG booms: TRAPPED CLOTHES OF DAMNATION, MORTAL. THATS FOR YER CURIOSITY.*

[_Ln_]

Probably the worst post ever.... not a single sentence that actually makes sense...

Will you cut out with your elitist approach (now and on bug trackers)? Someone comes here to express his opinion and ask others for theirs.

I don't agree with almost all points but I suspect there may be a reason for this. How familiar are you with roguelikes in general, dfTruf? Few healing/mana regeneration potion, few in-game sources of information are pretty standard for the genre.

As for throwing stuff, you may equip any item in the missile slot and throw it, no problem. Absence of "throw item" command is simply tied to the ammunition readying system in ADOM.

[dfTruF]

Of course it can be, but this is a video game and so it hast to simplify reality somehow in order to be playable.

This kind of realism, about identify of items, is very playable and beautiful. And is easy to implement in game where we have points of perceptions, intelligence, experience, skills, professions, etc.

[GordonOverkill]

Someone comes here to express his opinion and ask others for theirs.

To be honest, I slowly start to wonder if this thread was maybe created for trolling purposes ;-) i mean, honestly, complaining about details of realism of an ASCII video game... with this expectation you can hardly find any game at all about which you would not complain. I was about to recommend dfTruF to just program a better game if he doesn't like this one.

[dfTruF]

How familiar are you with roguelikes in general, dfTruf? Few healing/mana regeneration potion, few in-game sources of information are pretty standard for the genre.


I've played mostly Angband & variants.

[dfTruF]

To be honest, I slowly start to wonder if this thread was maybe created for trolling purposes ;-)

No, this was not my intention to trolling. Just my sincere opinion from playing Adom experience.

[GordonOverkill]

No, this was not my intention to trolling. Just my sincere opinion from playing Adom experience.

Well, then I say sorry for assuming you had bad intentions ;-) However, I personally like the thrill of not knowing the details of a new item I found, and I also like the extra challange from equipping a cursed item every now and then. For me personally this is definitely not a downside of ADOM.

[Stingray1]

The whole point of not knowing is so that the player is more likely to make mistakes, by equipping unidentified items or drinking them, whatever. If the character knew these properties of items, that part of the mystery in ADoM is somewhat lost.

[grobblewobble]

Could you maybe explain how this works in Angband, with an example or something? I never got into it.

[dfTruF]

Most of these problems will vanish with exprience.
...


Of course but player should have more elastic ways to learn solutions for them in game, not only through dying, or risking curse, or be forced to follow author's way of thinking.

When, for example, potions of healing, or items used for teleportation are so precious (rare) in the game, then author should express it through shop prices of this items, from the early moments of the game. Player should choose for himself, if he/she want to play with or without it, and have more gold for other items, if he think that taking some potions of healing is bad habit. All items which are essential for surviving critical situations, should be available from the early to late part of the game.

[dfTruF]

Could you maybe explain how this works in Angband, with an example or something? I never got into it.

For example in First Age Angband and Unnamed Angband is good identifying system, in my opinion better than in Adom.

[GordonOverkill]

Of course but player should have more elastic ways to learn solutions for them in game, not only through dying, or risking curse, or be forced to follow author's way of thinking.

When, for example, potions of healing, or items used for teleportation are so precious (rare) in the game, then author should express it through shop prices of this items, from the early moments of the game. Player should choose for himself, if he/she want to play with or without it, and have more gold for other items, if he think that taking some potions of healing is bad habit.

Well, the ADOM-way is rather "Take what the rng throws at you and make the best of it!" I honestly consider this an advantage of the game, because it is one of the main factors that guarantee almost infinite replayability. It forces you to create different strategies for every new run and not just use your favourite tactic again and again. Especially in the early game that's actually very funny to me... one time you get some early healing herbs, one time you get a good missile weapon, one time a nice armor, one time you start with good spells... there are a couple of fixed, guaranteed items that you can and should go for in order to increase your chars' survivability, but a whole lot is just random. Like I said, the game kept me playing for five years now, so at least in my case it's absolutely fine this way.

[dfTruF]

Well, the ADOM-way is rather "Take what the rng throws at you and make the best of it!"

Every game which use sandbox-like mechanics should give free hand and elastic approaches for players in this matter, in my opinion. Then feeling of freedom is bigger - this is the biggest reason why someone wants to play more.

[Stingray1]

There is much elasticity in the game to identify items.
Your survival mostly depends on your decisions and not the RNG. Through choice of skill improvements, talents, places visited and numerous actions taken. In reality the character should very rarely be in danger after the very early game. Unless the player puts the character in danger.

[GordonOverkill]

Every game which use sandbox-like mechanics should give free hand and elastic approaches for players in this matter, in my opinion. Then feeling of freedom is bigger - this is the biggest reason why someone want to play more.

So you would like it more if you had access to all kinds of items in every single run? Well, that would be a totally different game that had not much in common with ADOM, right?

[dfTruF]

So you would like it more if you had access to all kinds of items in every single run?

Not all, just items which are essential for surviving critical situations.

[Stingray1]

It sounds like you might like a game called Tales of Maj Eyal or so. Spelling might be wrong. ADoM is a very different game from it. Either one likes ADoM or they don't and prefer something straight forward like ToME. Try it, I think you'll really like it.

[dfTruF]

There is much elasticity in the game to identify items.
Your survival mostly depends on your decisions and not the RNG. Through choice of skill improvements, talents, places visited and numerous actions taken. In reality the character should very rarely be in danger after the very early game. Unless the player puts the character in danger.

Really? So what can you tell me about situation like this - once I've created character and after visiting village I headed to south east (easiest) dungeon. In forest I was attacked by group of orcs. Number of foes was so big that even gods was unable to help for very inexperienced character.

[dfTruF]

It sounds like you might like a game called Tales of Maj Eyal or so. Spelling might be wrong. ADoM is a very different game from it. Either one likes ADoM or they don't and prefer something straight forward like ToME. Try it, I think you'll really like it.

I've played old Tome when it was in ascii. And it is well-thought variant of Angband.
I don't like to compare Angband[s] with Adom. Different games with different philosophies of playing.

[GordonOverkill]

Hehe, I like both ADOM and ToME, to be honest, though if I had to make a choice, I would defintiely prefare ADOM ;-)

I can just repeat that in most ADOM runs you actually have several options availible in order to survive. You just have to learn what they are and how to use them. For me personally it took four years untill I won my first game, so this can really be a long way to go. Since then I have won seven runs and I think that I am definitely improving my skills. At least the feeling that the rng killed my character gets rarer and rarer and in most cases I know what I should have done differently in order to survive.
But in the end I guess that maybe it's just a matter of taste. This place is a forum full of ADOM lunatics, so it is not surprising that most people don't agree with your observation. For some people (like myself) ADOM is closer to the "perfect video game" than very most other games around.

[JellySlayer]

The most visible are:

- Rarity of potions for regenerating vital stats, and rarity of items used for [non]controlled teleportation of player from critical situations (which occur often), especially in the early game when character is weak and not developed in skills/magics.

While it is true that healing potions are fairly rare, there are a number of ways to heal yourself that don't require items. All characters can gain access to the Healing skill and can visit Jharod (who, by the way, will give you healing potions under certain circumstances). There are prayers for emergencies. Yes, if you are getting injured a lot, you may have problems because there is only limited access to instantaneous healing. But then you should probably be switching to coward and running away because you're fighting monsters out of your depth. As nice as teleport is, it's a powerful ability and should be hard (harder?) to get than it is. You don't need it early game anyway--above 110 speed, you can outrun almost all early monsters, and this should be accessible to all characters by level 6. If not, coward bonus will do the rest of the work.


- Non-elastic system for identifying items, addicted mostly to altars.
(Common items should be automatically identified by the character, and this should be based on level of: perception, intelligence, experience with using specified item type, overall professional experience. Beside of that, shops should have service for identifying advanced items, which surpass abilities of a character).

Identifying items is, IMHO, one of the really unique challenges that ADOM has to offer. There are lots of ways to ID gear, though granted, some item types (potions, scrolls) are harder to ID and more risky to ID than others. Scrolls of identify are one of the most common scrolls anyway. You can actually get shops to ID gear, though it's expensive and takes awhile--if you sell items to a shop, they'll eventually ID them. But you'll have to buy them back at an inflated price, of course.


- Top-down condemnation of a character for the chaotic path, sooner or later, because there are limited number of scrolls of chaos resistance.
(Player should choose which path he/she wants follow to the end)

The only SoCR that a pure chaotic will miss out on are those from the Dwarven Mystic. All others are alignment independent. You miss out on Jharod's potions too, but they're less critical. Chaotics do have a rougher go of it (altar problems, corruption on crowning), but that's the price you pay for being evil.


- Lack of throwing items command. Character can throw only items that can be treated as missiles.

All items can be thrown. Just put them in the missile slot while not wearing a launcher. Thrown potions are very useful.


- In order to play efficiently and accomplish Adom, player must study external guides (at least one partially) from internet, sometimes even spoilers, or consult with other players about author's deep secrets.

It's possible to win unspoiled. But it's pretty tough (it's tough even if you are spoiled). There are definitely some things (ultra endings in particular) that I think need more ingame detail to be able to reasonably solve. Hopefully this will get fixed in later updates.

[Singbird]

All items can be thrown. Just put them in the missile slot while not wearing a launcher. Thrown potions are very useful.


Well yeah... Take off my bow and arrows, equip my potion, throw my potion, put on my bow and arrows, shoot x 6, take off my bow and arrows. Instead of just :T (or something), choose my potion. This one is simply poor interface design to me.

On the other points I don't really agree. Sounds like you (the OP) simply want an easier game, with no real justification in my opinion. As for getting ambushed in the forest, yeah it can happen. Happens maybe every 40 games. Just like maybe every 40 games you find a plate mail in DD:2 and become invinsible. For sure, some deaths in ADOM are unavoidable (more or less). But most are not. It's simply a matter of playing smart.

Edit. The lack of throwing command may once have been one of ADOM's "aaaaah you can do this too, riiiight" -moments. Maybe that's why there isn't one. But I'd still prefer there was.

[GordonOverkill]

Really? So what can you tell me about situation like this - once I've created character and after visiting village I headed to south east (easiest) dungeon. In forest I was attacked by group of orcs. Number of foes was so big that even gods was unable to help for very inexperienced character.

I would have tried to flee. If that didn't work, I would have eaten some hits untill I got the coward speed bonus and then tried to outrun the orcs and flee. If that still didn't work, well, then I would have rolled a new character who would surely have been luckier. The longer you survive, the more equipment you gater... and that equals more options to survive. For a rather skilled and patient player chances are not too bad to survive the early game... with some race-class-combinations it is easier that with others of course.

[blob]

This thread reminds me that adom is in kind of a tough spot at the moment. People who have been playing for years (myself included) would not like to see any kind of "dumbing down" of the game, while it is difficult to attract new players to a really difficult game. TOME, imo, has a better way of dealing with this through the different difficulty settings (and option of extra lives) but I can't see adom going down that path. I do feel some things, like throwing potions, maybe prayers etc, should just be explained in FAQ/manual/turorial. There maybe was a charm ten years ago in finding out what to do with various commands, but I feel those days are gone.

[JellySlayer]

Really? So what can you tell me about situation like this - once I've created character and after visiting village I headed to south east (easiest) dungeon. In forest I was attacked by group of orcs. Number of foes was so big that even gods was unable to help for very inexperienced character.

Not every fight in ADOM is winnable. If you're inexperienced and outnumbered, then you should run away. Especially in the early game, picking your opponents carefully is an important part of the strategy. Discretion is the better part of valor, as they say.

[dfTruF]

There maybe was a charm ten years ago in finding out what to do with various commands, but I feel those days are gone.

Many authors of games in those golden years (of classical computer gaming) follow this pattern - lets create secrets burrowed deep in the game's algorithms, so players will search this tricks, from every possible source, and will get involved more deeply in the game.

Yes, this was a charm that doesn't work nowadays. People searching the internet for non-cheating guide books very often rub against spoilers (accidentally).

[dfTruF]

Sounds like you (the OP) simply want an easier game, with no real justification in my opinion.

The game wouldn't be easier if there would be potions of healing in the nearest village shop, for very big price. This is a matter of price balancing by the author.

[blob]

Actually the healer could sell a limited number of potions, that would be thematic. Of course you have to find him first, but that is not too difficult.

[Stingray1]

What, potions of healing are not that rare, one hardly needs them anyway. The early shop is there to ID some stuff and sell some early game junk to. Not so much for buying.

I remember atleast 2 rumours that hint at throwing potions and another 2 that hint at throwing other items.

A quick throw keybinding would be cool though or a global quickmarking of items in inventory. Quick throw must ofcourse use more energy.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

The game can definitely be won without spoilers. I got at least as far as the elemental anomalies (like 95% of the game) without spoilers. And I'm sure I'd have done the rest too, if I hadn't found these forums and become spoiled.

It seems that the same doesn't happen with ultras too. Let's see if they fix that.

The general ID mechanic is very good IMO, because it makes you make decisions. Do I keep this mediocre sword, or do I try that axe knowing that it might be great, but it could also be even worse, and furthermore cursed?

I do agree that some tweaks could be made to the mechanic, though.

First, there's the carrot juice issue that grobblewobble mentioned. I'm not convinced by the fact that there are items that the player knows and the PC doesn't. I think it would be better if either all the potions (and rings, etc.) were randomized, or those having always the same name were identified from the beginning. That is, if it's obvious that carrot juice is orange, that potion could be ID'd from the beginning.

Apart from that, I'd also buff appraising. A skill of 100 in appraising could tell you the damage of a weapon from time to time, or something. It would be much more useful.

I think there was an RFE somewhere that suggested that the shop in Terinyo (or maybe a second shop?) sell some basic adventuring gear like torches, basic potions of healing (or maybe bandages) and stuff like that. I for one support that RFE. It would make money more relevant in the early game, which would be a good thing, as right now the economy in ADOM is rather broken, and it could make the early game somewhat easier for beginners without introducing anything that dumbs down the game too much (the game isn't going to become significantly easier if you can spend your starting money on one healing potion or two).

By the way, the First Aid skill is now a quite decent alternative source of healing (it was all but useless before, but it got a recent buff) if you put points into it. Use it, it will make your early game easier.

[Singbird]

The game wouldn't be easier if there would be potions of healing in the nearest village shop, for very big price. This is a matter of price balancing by the author.

Maybe not. But the other things you listed would make it easier. : ) More stat increasing, more corruption removal...

[anon123]

- In order to play efficiently and accomplish Adom, player must study external guides (at least one partially) from internet, sometimes even spoilers, or consult with other players about author's deep secrets.
(Games which are made in good style have all necessary amount of informations, for playing and accomplish, in the game, not outside somewhere hidden in "author's garden")

There's a manual included with the game, which you can consult even in the middle of gameplay if you need to. It won't tell you "the non-descript cave in the middle of the map is Darkforge, and the steel golem there will shred you to pieces" or "you start with two healing prayers, or three for Candle PCs". You need spoilers to get that amount of detail. But it does say that if a dungeon looks extremely difficult you should try elsewhere, or that you can pray and doing so in times of emergency is a good idea.


Really? So what can you tell me about situation like this - once I've created character and after visiting village I headed to south east (easiest) dungeon. In forest I was attacked by group of orcs. Number of foes was so big that even gods was unable to help for very inexperienced character.

The highly useful advice of "if you can't handle something, run away" (which is an ADOM rule, and would have saved you here) is also in the manual :)

[dfTruF]

The highly useful advice of "if you can't handle something, run away" (which is an ADOM rule, and would have saved you here) is also in the manual :)

But those was the situation, in the wilderness, in the very beginning of the game, when I was attacked and surrounded by many orcs from all directions, in addition they had throwing knives.

[JellySlayer]

But those was the situation, in the wilderness, in the very beginning of the game, when I was attacked and surrounded by many orcs from all directions, in addition they had throwing knives.

Even in an ambush (where the monsters start very close to you) there are usually a few holes where you can make a break for it right away. You will never start completely surrounded and unable to move.

Evading wilderness encounters is a skill. It requires awareness of your surroundings, understanding of speed and terrain penalties. But it requires very little luck.

[Singbird]

To add something to the topic, I think the most discouraging aspect of ADOM is that you can easily die in many situations if you're not paying attention. This eventually results in me dying in many silly ways and getting my fill of ADOM for the moment, and then coming back a month or a year later. I don't think I'd want any of these silly situations changed though.

Oh, I had five regeneration items, I meleed a karmic lizard and got one-turn killed by a chaos warlord.
Oh, I actually forgot to wear my mummy wrappings... Well I'm dead now.
Ups, forgot my ring of see invisible.

Maybe it's because then you also have nice situations like

Well damn, I've been at 0 PV since the start of the game, but I don't want to put any of these robes because they might be cursed. Well whatever, I'll try these ones. [+3, +4]
Well Nuurag wasn't so tough this time, let's switch back to our awesome crystal tower shield. Hmm wait, I'm actually not using my Lust for Glory...

[JellySlayer]

Carelessness is by far the biggest killer in ADOM. It's pretty much the only killer of endgame PCs.

[Stingray1]

@ Al-Khwarizmi I beat the game normally 100 percent unspoiled and was buzy figuring out OCG, was able to acquire all 3 parts of the trinity, but not in the same game.

I changed jobs and house and stopped playing ADOM for 7 years then. I think if I continued and acquired all 3 parts with one character, I most likely would have succeeded with OCG unspoiled too, but alas, fucking alas.

[boat]

Like singbird, I want to add something to the general topic. The biggest things I've found frustrating are:
-time required to heal. Albeit I've only played dwarves. In some early to mid game situations, the amount of turns it took to heal was outrageous. Even with the healing skill. This is why I prefer to go with candle, so I can do more of run and gun style ADOM. You could argue that the game isn't supposed to be played this way, but waiting to heal while I use up all my food provisions sucks.
-thunndar quests, I know there has been a fix, but it does take some "grinding"
-item destruction, I was a fighter with 70 literacy 13 learning, and a failed book read literally burned all my scrolls, cloaks being torn apart, etc.

I'm sure people have counters to this but for the last two issues, I think the "easy" mode on steam that has re loading after death would be a good feature. Optional of course. Also, maybe in easy mode you start with a waterproof and a fireproof blanket :). Don't get me wrong, a regular ADOM player should never expect this treatment but I just want everyone new to love the game as much as me.

I would like to hear your guys' weigh in on early/mid game healing though because without candle I've found it tough. I don't think prayers should factor into this discussion as they should be last ditch attempts. I'm talking getting beat up from normal and slightly tougher monsters, situations, etc.

[JellySlayer]

-time required to heal. Albeit I've only played dwarves. In some early to mid game situations, the amount of turns it took to heal was outrageous. Even with the healing skill. This is why I prefer to go with candle, so I can do more of run and gun style ADOM. You could argue that the game isn't supposed to be played this way, but waiting to heal while I use up all my food provisions sucks.

Best thing to do is not get hit. Always take armor that adds PV, even if it means a loss of DV. Dwarves usually start with very good armor and can add several points of PV through talents. Once your PV is above 12-15 or so--a dwarf should start with close to this, honestly--very few monsters in the early game should be able to hit you unless you are cursed/doomed. Taking lots of damage is probably a sign your PC is out of their depth. Training missiles or spells helps a lot too. There's nothing wrong with having to w5 to regain HP now and then, but you shouldn't actually need to do it very often except really early in the game. Healing outside in the wilderness is much more efficient if you're desperate for HP and near the surface. Once you get herbs, having a little pile of spenseweeds to top up with is helpful.


-thunndar quests, I know there has been a fix, but it does take some "grinding"

The current state of these is a little imbalanced, IMHO. Hopefully will be reverted/fixed. In 1.1.1, 95 percent of the time, you'd meet the monster in the usual course of play. These quests are optional anyway, and the rewards are not so important.


-item destruction, I was a fighter with 70 literacy 13 learning, and a failed book read literally burned all my scrolls, cloaks being torn apart, etc.

Not surprised. Your PC is barely literate. Get literacy to 100 and learning above 20 and maybe you'll have a shot at some easy books on a melee PC with no concentration. If your character isn't a good reader and you don't have a fireproof blanket, you can dump your extra gear before you try reading, I guess.

[dfTruF]

-item destruction, I was a fighter with 70 literacy 13 learning, and a failed book read literally burned all my scrolls, cloaks being torn apart, etc.


And you was killed by this failed book read or just stripped by fire?

[GordonOverkill]

I would like to hear your guys' weigh in on early/mid game healing though because without candle I've found it tough. I don't think prayers should factor into this discussion as they should be last ditch attempts. I'm talking getting beat up from normal and slightly tougher monsters, situations, etc.

i think prayers should actually count ;-) At least in my strategies they always play an important part for this very purpose. In many runs two complete healings is all that you need for the early game. At the beginning of the midgame there is a guaranteed altar, so you can rebuild your piety, if you didn't find a random coalligned altar earlier. At that point chances are also good that you already found some spenseweed or pepper pettals. Of course it doesn't always work (at least not for me), but at least often enough. Apart from that I am with JellySlayer... the best protection from damage is to avoid getting hit at all.

[boat]

Best thing to do is not get hit. Always take armor that adds PV, even if it means a loss of DV. Dwarves usually start with very good armor and can add several points of PV through talents. Once your PV is above 12-15 or so--a dwarf should start with close to this, honestly--very few monsters in the early game should be able to hit you unless you are cursed/doomed. Taking lots of damage is probably a sign your PC is out of their depth. Training missiles or spells helps a lot too. There's nothing wrong with having to w5 to regain HP now and then, but you shouldn't actually need to do it very often except really early in the game. Healing outside in the wilderness is much more efficient if you're desperate for HP and near the surface. Once you get herbs, having a little pile of spenseweeds to top up with is helpful.



The current state of these is a little imbalanced, IMHO. Hopefully will be reverted/fixed. In 1.1.1, 95 percent of the time, you'd meet the monster in the usual course of play. These quests are optional anyway, and the rewards are not so important.



Not surprised. Your PC is barely literate. Get literacy to 100 and learning above 20 and maybe you'll have a shot at some easy books on a melee PC with no concentration. If your character isn't a good reader and you don't have a fireproof blanket, you can dump your extra gear before you try reading, I guess.

Thanks for your insights. And I don't have too many concerns with these issues, as it's part of the game. Jelly, are you saying a weaker class has a noticeably higher healing rate to offset the lack of armor? My dwarf duellists seemed to get best up pretty bad!

Also, if you read the "a"pply skill page, it doesn't say I'm "barely literate", it probably says good or very good, I can't reeber

[boat]

And you was killed by this failed book read or just stripped by fire?
Stripped by fire. Sorry for confusion. Obviously re loading the game won't save you but for newbies it's no fun. And guys please try to see it from someone who never played adom before, and reads the first book they see! They wouldn't have the experience to know to train their skills.

[boat]

i think prayers should actually count ;-) At least in my strategies they always play an important part for this very purpose. In many runs two complete healings is all that you need for the early game. At the beginning of the midgame there is a guaranteed altar, so you can rebuild your piety, if you didn't find a random coalligned altar earlier. At that point chances are also good that you already found some spenseweed or pepper pettals. Of course it doesn't always work (at least not for me), but at least often enough. Apart from that I am with JellySlayer... the best protection from damage is to avoid getting hit at all.

So you would encourage beginners to use praying as a "potion belt" so to speak? Herbs are nice to have but hard to get. For some reason I always remember your videos and you say "eat a pepper petal " "eat a pepper petal" it's how you say it, dainty like, and your accent - I find it funny. :)

[JellySlayer]

Thanks for your insights. And I don't have too many concerns with these issues, as it's part of the game. Jelly, are you saying a weaker class has a noticeably higher healing rate to offset the lack of armor? My dwarf duellists seemed to get best up pretty bad!

No, it probably just means you have poor PV. What I mean is that when your PV is high, you don't take much damage so you don't need to heal so much. A dwarf paladin, say, will start with 10+ PV, and shouldn't take more than a couple points of damage before Dwaftown. Duelists are doubly bad for this, because they can't use a shield to increase their DV either. They are quite vulnerable early on, but become powerhouses later.


Also, if you read the "a"pply skill page, it doesn't say I'm "barely literate", it probably says good or very good, I can't reeber

For book reading, you pretty much need 100 literacy to even have a shot at it, especially if you don't also have concentration. Book reading depends on a lot of different things, and there are some pretty huge penalties that are applied to non-casters. Skill bonuses are highly non-linear in ADOM as well. Healing at 100 is twice as good as Healing at 99, and four times as good as Healing at 79, IIRC.


And guys please try to see it from someone who never played adom before, and reads the first book they see! They wouldn't have the experience to know to train their skills.

After having a few books explode in their face, they'll figure it out ;) Same thing happens if you start drinking random unID potions or zapping random wands.

[dfTruF]

I think there was an RFE somewhere that suggested that the shop in Terinyo (or maybe a second shop?) sell some basic adventuring gear like torches, basic potions of healing (or maybe bandages) and stuff like that.

AFAIK Terinyo as a place of some civilization, with some population, doesn't experience massive attacks from orc warbands, or goblin wolf riders, etc., in a whole era of the game. So it is a common sense that there should be shop with some essential items (not only food).

[GordonOverkill]

Thanks for your insights. And I don't have too many concerns with these issues, as it's part of the game. Jelly, are you saying a weaker class has a noticeably higher healing rate to offset the lack of armor? My dwarf duellists seemed to get best up pretty bad!

Also, if you read the "a"pply skill page, it doesn't say I'm "barely literate", it probably says good or very good, I can't reeber

Do you guys really consider it a logical mistake that even a rather smart fighter can hardly learn magical spells? Dudes, he is a fighter... nobody ever taught him how to use magic. It's just natural that you have to put serious effort into your deeds if you want him to become a spellcaster. If he wants to succeed in this task, it's definitely not enough to be a "rather smart" fighter. Also magic is a dangerous task. Only one wrong word can easily make the difference between life and death, so in my eyes it is perfectly right that an unprofessional caster needs not a point less than literacy 100.


AFAIK Terinyo as a place of some civilization, with some population, doesn't experience massive attacks from orc warbands, or goblin wolf riders, etc., in a whole era of the game. So it is a common sense that there should be shop with some essential items (not only food).

Hmmm, how far did you get into the game? I am afraid, if there are so many things about ADOM's logics that you don't like even in the very beginning, this will maybe continue untill the very end and you will just not like the game very much. What you consider is at the one hand a reballancing of the whole early game, so you have some more stuff availible that you consider essential for survival. On the other hand you consider reworking it in terms of logical coherence. All in all you are suggesting a ton of work which will all have serious balance effects. For example if there was a general adventurers shop in Terinyo, the black market would become more or less obsolete and the whole town of Lawenilothehl would lose alot of it's importance.
At least I'd suggest that we keep both your issues separated: Logical problems and difficulty problems. What exactly spoils your gaming experience: That you consider it illogical or that you consider your characters' deaths unavoidable? And another thing that I am a little curious about: With all those weaknesses that you see, what are the positive things that make you care about the game, anyway? Actually you explicitly dislike alot of the points that I personally consider advantages of the game, so this is really not too easy to get for me.


Stripped by fire. Sorry for confusion. Obviously re loading the game won't save you but for newbies it's no fun. And guys please try to see it from someone who never played adom before, and reads the first book they see! They wouldn't have the experience to know to train their skills.

I think that's how learning in ADOM works. You make an anoying mistake and try to avoid it in the future. If somebody wants to play a very intuitive game where you are part of a well-thought story through which you progress rather quickly, I am afraid that ADOM is just not the perfect game for such a person... and at least I think that ADOM should not pretend to be something that it just is not. The choice is between "a rather average something else" and "one of the best of a very special kind".


So you would encourage beginners to use praying as a "potion belt" so to speak?

As long as he/she doesn't get into danger of starvation: Definitely a big, fat "YES!"


Herbs are nice to have but hard to get. For some reason I always remember your videos and you say "eat a pepper petal " "eat a pepper petal" it's how you say it, dainty like, and your accent - I find it funny.

:o

[Al-Khwarizmi]

For example if there was a general adventurers shop in Terinyo, the black market would become more or less obsolete and the whole town of Lawenilothehl would lose alot of it's importance.
Well, IIRC what the RFE said (sorry, I can't find it - I'm really bad at searching the issue tracker) is that the shop could stock very basic adventuring items, like torches, bandages, potions of plain healing, plain blankets, maybe a plain dagger without modifiers, etc. I don't think that would make the black market obsolete, as I don't think anyone goes to the black market for that kind of items (in case it stocks them).

Mind you, I disagree with most of what the OP says, but that concept of the Terinyo shop doesn't seem very unbalancing to me. I'd make the shop not restocking so that people can't get infinite healing potions though.

[GordonOverkill]

Well, IIRC what the RFE said (sorry, I can't find it - I'm really bad at searching the issue tracker) is that the shop could stock very basic adventuring items, like torches, bandages, potions of plain healing, plain blankets, maybe a plain dagger without modifiers, etc. I don't think that would make the black market obsolete, as I don't think anyone goes to the black market for that kind of items (in case it stocks them).

Mind you, I disagree with most of what the OP says, but that concept of the Terinyo shop doesn't seem very unbalancing to me. I'd make the shop not restocking so that people can't get infinite healing potions though.

Okay, then I somehow didn't get it right. Thanks for the explanation ;-)

[Stingray1]

Every game which use sandbox-like mechanics should give free hand and elastic approaches for players in this matter, in my opinion. Then feeling of freedom is bigger - this is the biggest reason why someone wants to play more.

During each turn the player probably has around 60 different actions he/she can take. This amount of elasticity varies from race/class and progression into the game, increasing.

It is most likely one of the most elastic games on the planet.


Really? So what can you tell me about situation like this - once I've created character and after visiting village I headed to south east (easiest) dungeon. In forest I was attacked by group of orcs. Number of foes was so big that even gods was unable to help for very inexperienced character.

I suggest you learn to take in what you read, especially when playing ADoM.

In the past week or so I took about 60 new characters straight to the gremlin cave about 5 was cursed and not one of them died en route.


I've played old Tome when it was in ascii. And it is well-thought variant of Angband.
I don't like to compare Angband[s] with Adom. Different games with different philosophies of playing.

Still you want the aspects that conveniences you in those games to be present in ADoM. ADoM works fine, I can confirm that. I did not even know about exploits.


Many authors of games in those golden years (of classical computer gaming) follow this pattern - lets create secrets burrowed deep in the game's algorithms, so players will search this tricks, from every possible source, and will get involved more deeply in the game.

Yes, this was a charm that doesn't work nowadays. People searching the internet for non-cheating guide books very often rub against spoilers (accidentally).

One doesn't need to search the internet for non-cheating guide books, the game has a manual build into it.

[dfTruF]

I think that's how learning in ADOM works. You make an anoying mistake and try to avoid it in the future.

From this point of view ADOM is an easy game.

New players, simply don't have knowledge about which parts of mechanics are rigid (constant in every reborn), and which have elements of sandbox. Beside of that, most people are playing very naturally when they are fresh to the game. Then many approaches for methods of conduct are based from natural intuition, which has been shaped in reality (or in other similar games). Many players simply frustrate on mistakes made in a game (even when they have knowledge about mechanics) and tend to be more careless berserkers. So it is from this point of view that ADOM can be difficult game.
But for everyone become used to step by step progress ADOM gives "golden space" where is easy and safe, even when they made mistake. Knowledge about betting and good risk estimation is the most universal knowledge in many games. For sport bettors ADOM should be very easy game.

Playing ADOM and most other rogue-like games is about balancing alertness in the middle, between two extremes - frustration from overestimation of your power and boredom from grinding cowardly.

[Stingray1]

ADoM is both an easy game and a difficult one. For beginners it is very difficult. The second most important thing you must learn is perseverance and then to accept consequence of your actions.

The rest will fall into place once you have mastered the above 3. It is a very long road though, with much hardship, but pleasantly rewarding in the long run.

[Mobius]

What I hate are the insta-death things. 5th level, one trap boom kills, step on alter get sacrificed, paralyze cycle of death.

Even if paralyze made your speed 10 instead of 0, it would be less frustrating.

[*invalidname*]

^ i love the fact my char can die from unexpected sources like random teleport onto an altar and being sacced by an invisible stalker, or my much loved gear can be destroyed by a blink dog landing on a fireball next to me.

I don't want a game that holds my hand and cuddles me to victory.

That's why i play Adom :)

[Moeba]

Mind you, I disagree with most of what the OP says, but that concept of the Terinyo shop doesn't seem very unbalancing to me. I'd make the shop not restocking so that people can't get infinite healing potions though.

Infinite healing potions are the thing to fall back to in almost any RPG. I think that whoever wanted this feature in ADOM was just searching for an already known way of playing that would work in ADOM. Therefore I like that ADOM doesn't supply these potions, it makes the game different from the boringly predictable mainstream.
Don't take the viewpoint that ADOM should be playable for anyone who has experience with RPG's; the already existing playerbase obviously doesn't want that. If you like the idea of the game (especially the concept roguelike), you will also prefer ADOM the way it is once you know the game better.

[Deathwind]

ADOM has a rightly earned reputation for being one of the hardest roguelikes and that is a good thing.

That said I think a few adjustments might be in order:
-basic healing potions are really weak, maybe a small increase in die size?

-a small tool shop in town is a good idea, just basic gear such as torches, fire making sets, and cooking sets. The building left of the elder's would be a nice fit (if there is an issue with multiple shops in one level Munxip's could be reworked into a unique sell only food/tool shop)

-merge the box with flint and steel and the tinderbox into one fire making set, when was the last time you were able to light a torch if you didn't start with all three items?

-why do we need to keep the bridge building manual to improve the skill? trolls start with the skill and can't advance it unless they carry a book they can't even read. if you want us to keep maybe allow the book to be read more than once to train the skill?

-toning down the wilderness encounters a little bit in the areas east of the river, facing a pair of werejackels 2 steps out of Terinyo is lethal to most level 1 characters.

-the labels describing your ability with skills is really misleading, a skill rated 'fair' has roughly 50% odds. lowering all the descriptions one level would more accurate.

-cats, in the early game they are too fast to get away from and late game they die far too easy. The main reason I quit is because I accidentally killed a cat (who's bright idea was it to add a named cat that can walk through walls? I've seen it 14 times already). maybe a speed reduction is in order?

-how does a large ration weigh as much as a huge iron hammer?

[GordonOverkill]

-toning down the wilderness encounters a little bit in the areas east of the river, facing a pair of werejackels 2 steps out of Terinyo is lethal to most level 1 characters.


Do you really consider those encounters that hard? It has been mentioned a couple of times now, but at least from my experience the encounters are very rare and them being lethal is even rarer. I lose alot more characters to... let's say... stone block traps or extraordinarily strong random dungeon monsters.

[dfTruF]

I know that this is just a game, but ADOM is very easy in comparison to reality. And many people compare aspects of the game to the reality (especially when the game uses ideas such as: learning, skills, experience, will power, perception, etc., taken from reality).
For example, on planet Earth, there would be too easy, when someone could just go into some dungeon and collect valuable items (even few gold units, large rations, clothes, etc.) on relative shallow levels, as easy as this can be done in ADOM, with skills and experience that can be enlarged as easy. And this easiness can discourages for playing too.

[JellySlayer]

ADOM has a rightly earned reputation for being one of the hardest roguelikes and that is a good thing.

That said I think a few adjustments might be in order:
-basic healing potions are really weak, maybe a small increase in die size?

Supposedly they were buffed in 1.2.0. I have to admit though, I haven't noticed much of a difference.


-a small tool shop in town is a good idea, just basic gear such as torches, fire making sets, and cooking sets. The building left of the elder's would be a nice fit (if there is an issue with multiple shops in one level Munxip's could be reworked into a unique sell only food/tool shop)

-merge the box with flint and steel and the tinderbox into one fire making set, when was the last time you were able to light a torch if you didn't start with all three items?


These items are pretty common now, and not so desperately important that you need a shop for them, IMHO. It's very rare that I don't have multiple firemaking kits by level 10 or so these days.


-why do we need to keep the bridge building manual to improve the skill? trolls start with the skill and can't advance it unless they carry a book they can't even read. if you want us to keep maybe allow the book to be read more than once to train the skill?

Yeah, bridge building is poorly set up, especially considering the other difficulties with this skill...


-toning down the wilderness encounters a little bit in the areas east of the river, facing a pair of werejackels 2 steps out of Terinyo is lethal to most level 1 characters.

Terinyo is in a forested area, and forest encounters are already among the easiest to survive/avoid. Virtually all wilderness can be avoided safely, even at level 1, if you invest in speed. If you want to make the early game harder for yourself by going for treasure hunter right away, that's your choice, but not being able to outrun things when you need to is the price you pay.


-cats, in the early game they are too fast to get away from and late game they die far too easy. The main reason I quit is because I accidentally killed a cat (who's bright idea was it to add a named cat that can walk through walls? I've seen it 14 times already). maybe a speed reduction is in order?

Cats are a special, difficult, optional quest. If you kill a cat, well, you shrug and move on. XP from the cat lord is pretty good anyway.

[GordonOverkill]

I know that this is just a game, but ADOM is very easy in comparison to reality. And many people compare aspects of the game to the reality.
For example, on planet Earth, there would be too easy, when someone could just go into some dungeon and collect valuable items (even few gold units, large rations, clothes, etc.) on relative shallow levels, as easy as this can be done in ADOM. And this easiness can discourages for playing too.

Dude, with all these strange points that discourage you, maybe you should just play something else.

[dfTruF]

Dude, with all these strange points that discourage you, maybe you should just play something else.

Why do you even suppose that I want to play just one game (ADOM)?

[GordonOverkill]

I don't. But it doesn't seem that you like this one game very much in which's forum you are talking. At least there are so many and so general points that you would like to change that the result would very likely be a totally different game... which I do definitely not want because this is one of my all-time favourite games. And by the way, I don't have the impression that you spent very much time with the game so far. You have played a little through the early game and found a whole lot to complain about, so my hint would definitely be to play some other game instead that fits your ideals better. And honestly, considering it discouraging that a video game is "easy in comparison to reality"... I have serious doubts that such "hints" could make any good discussion.

e: And just to mention it once, your last posting didn't make any sense at all. I recommended you to play "something else" and you responded by asking why I would suppose that you want to play "just one game"... where do you see me supposing anything like this? Surely not in the phrase you quoted. "Something else" includes more or less everything except ADOM and surely not "just one game"... strange...

[dfTruF]

I don't. But it doesn't seem that you like this one game very much

ADOM is not so bad, but it is not the game that is so close to perfect rogue-like, in my opinion. Maybe ADOM II will be closer to perfection, who knows.

[gut]

I tried the whole 'more info should be available in-game' line a month or so ago. Everybody said then they prefered the existing save-scum + external guides method, though they didn't actually say it. Instead they tried to lay out a hypothetical way that things could theoretically be done with no spoilers or savescumming (despite the fact that we all save-scummed and spoilered ourselves stupid and still do).

[Stingray1]

> I tried the whole 'more info should be available in-game' line a month or so ago. Everybody said then they prefered the existing save-scum + external guides method, though they didn't actually say it. Instead they tried to lay out a hypothetical way that things could theoretically be done with no spoilers or savescumming (despite the fact that we all save-scummed and spoilered ourselves stupid and still do).

Speak for yourself bud. Some good points were actually raised in that thread. Maybe you should go read it again, with an open mind this time.

[Deathwind]

save-scumming actually makes the game much harder because it wrecks your luck rolls.

[gut]

yeah, prolly

anyway, I kinda like the existing system. It pretty much forces new players to join the community, else they won't be sticking with adom very long.

[Stingray1]

I'm certain there is some intelligent new players out there, that enjoy a game in full. Not everyone needs 'help'.

[Silfir]

Winning the game without spoilers is hard, though not impossible. Enjoying it for years on end is very easy as long as you don't particularly care about winning. I played ADOM for years before I participated in any kind of online community.

[Moeba]

save-scumming actually makes the game much harder because it wrecks your luck rolls.

Does the RNG in ADOM really work this way? That having much luck at some point has to be compensated by less luck at other points?
I always thought any two luck rolls were independent of each other.

Or is it just that the game can detect save-scumming and makes you kind of doomed? No right?

[Stingray1]

There is some detection going on, I think. In the old days when we had regular game crashes, I used to keep a backup savefile. The times I did restore, I felt less lucky.

The biggest downside to save-scumming however is that it inhibits cognitive processes in the brain, which is the worst thing a player can do to himself.

[anon123]

Savescumming doesn't affect your character's Luck; it's save editing that does, and in that case, "makes the game much harder" is a complete understatement ;)

[gut]

> The times I did restore, I felt less lucky

Well there's the proof right there. What more do you want?

[dfTruF]

After some time of playing, I've found three more aspects:

- Lack of item examination after fully identify it (examine if it can be destroyed by fire, cold, acid, etc., and other hints, which are helpful for better understanding the nature of this item).

- No possibility to add an inscription directly to an item (for player's customizable command shortcuts, or for player's individual likings). Everyone who played Angband knows how useful this tool can be.

- No possibility to automatic pick up items which match those in inventory.

[JellySlayer]

After some time of playing, I've found three more aspects:

- Lack of item examination after fully identify it (examine if it can be destroyed by fire, cold, acid, etc., and other hints, which are helpful for better understanding the nature of this item).

Greater identify provides many extra details about items. Others (eg. material resistance) can be inferred or, in some cases, picked up from metallurgy skill.


- No possibility to add an inscription directly to an item (for player's customizable command shortcuts, or for player's individual likings). Everyone who played Angband knows how useful this tool can be.

Customizable shortcuts would be great. I think there is already an RFE for this, possibly several.


- No possibility to automatic pick up items which match those in inventory.

I'm not sure why you would want auto pickup to only get items that match your inventory.

[Singbird]

Greater identify provides many extra details about items. Others (eg. material resistance) can be inferred or, in some cases, picked up from metallurgy skill.


What he means (I think) is that there is no "item memory" like there is monster memory. It would be great if you only had to greater identify an artifact once during a game and you could just examine it again at any time. It's pretty hard sometimes, when you have six artifact weapons, to remember which is which exactly. Especially for things like confusion resistance or see invisible.

[Stingray1]

I have a folder full of screenshots of every greater identify of artifacts I've encountered. In the old days before windows, I had a physical notebook full of notes.

It is very easy today to make screenshots and/or open a notebook file. I think having such a function ingame would be good. There is a few RFEs regarding such features I think.

[dfTruF]

What he means (I think) is that there is no "item memory" like there is monster memory. It would be great if you only had to greater identify an artifact once during a game and you could just examine it again at any time. It's pretty hard sometimes, when you have six artifact weapons, to remember which is which exactly. Especially for things like confusion resistance or see invisible.

Exactly, this is what I mean. Not only for artifacts, but for everything which has some description.

[dfTruF]

I'm not sure why you would want auto pickup to only get items that match your inventory.

For example - someone wants to automatic pick up only arrows, without quarrels and other items which look like missiles '/'.
Or someone wants to automatic pick up only keys (for locked doors), without other items which look like tools ']'.
It is easy to implement in code, and to add as one line in cfg file (Auto_Pickup_Match_Inventory = [true/false]).


If ADOM would be as open source then all this aspects would vanished after very short time. And this would be possible to play ADOM on mobiles and mobile playing consoles (gp2x, psp, pandora, dingoo, etc.). This would mean more players, and more players means bigger probability for more donations.

[dfTruF]

Customizable shortcuts would be great. I think there is already an RFE for this, possibly several.


It is still possible to use AutoHotkey external tool for ADOM. But without inscriptions on items players can only create commands combinations, without item naming.

I use AutoHotkey for example, for dropping, or picking up, every (or just only not identified) items from/to inventory (with repeated spaces). By one button on keyboard.

[GordonOverkill]

If ADOM would be as open source then all this aspects would vanished after very short time. And this would be possible to play ADOM on mobiles and mobile playing consoles (gp2x, psp, pandora, dingoo, etc.). This would mean more players, and more players means bigger probability for more donations.

Well, but it ain't and the creator made quite clear multiple times that he pereferes it that way. I think, it's quite obvious that - although every friend of ADOM is surely happy about every player who enjoyes it - the game was never intended to maximise the profit or the number of players by any means.
However, this is the place on this board to discuss things like this: http://www.adom.de/forums/forumdisplay.php/13-Release-of-the-ADOM-source-code

[dfTruF]

the game was never intended to maximise the profit or the number of players by any means.


We live in a such economic system that most authors of freeware games feel strong boost in their motivation (for making bugfixes and improvements) based on donations. But, of course, computer games are not golden cows for making money and become millionaire nowadays. Chances to become millionaire, by creating computer games, are equal to get hit by golden meteorite, or winning on national lottery.

Things like this: B-will-release-the-source-for-1-8million! (http://www.adom.de/forums/showthread.php/11821-TB-will-release-the-source-for-1-8million!)

[JellySlayer]

Pretty sure that was a joke...

[dfTruF]

Pretty sure that was a joke...

If it is a joke then it has not clear meaning.

[GordonOverkill]

If it is a joke then it has not clear meaning.

Dude, please... you really think that he programmed an ultra difficult ASCII game in order to get rich ? And keeps the code a secret just because he seriously hopes to sell it for a million bucks? xD

[JellySlayer]

If it is a joke then it has not clear meaning.

He's trolling all of the people who have been asking him to release the source (despite his repeated refusals and explanations) for the past fifteen years.

[gosos]

the large number of commands and they way they are just listed in the help is a hassle. the commands should be organized better into tabs with more common commands at the front and the others listed as 'extra commands' and such. its hard to find commands.

[dfTruF]

Dude, please... you really think that he programmed an ultra difficult ASCII game in order to get rich ? And keeps the code a secret just because he seriously hopes to sell it for a million bucks? xD

ADOM is not so difficult. Even not knowing deep secrets in rigid quests plot, player can find valuable items on relatively shallow levels in random dungeon and accumulate much amounts of experience, skills, and gold by quite safe methods.
For example, game - Powder is much harder than ADOM.

I think that he keeps the code because he likes fun from providing secrets to players. He likes when players discuss about ADOM, when players create extensive guides based on playing (not based on code analysis), and get excited from discovering unknown things implemented in the closed code.

[GordonOverkill]

ADOM is not so difficult. Even not knowing deep secrets in rigid quests plot, player can find valuable items on relatively shallow levels in random dungeon and accumulate much amounts of experience, skills, and gold by quite safe methods.
For example, game - Powder is much harder than ADOM.

Well, for me it is damn hard. Took me about four years to beat the game, which is a whole lot more than 99% of the games around. Even now as I consider myself a more or less okay player, I still lose the big majority of my chars. Also for most of my friends who gave it a try, it appears damn hard. Still there are some people around who consider it an easy game... although I never met anyone of them at another place but this board.
Apart from that, what do you want to express with this statement? That I was wrong and ADOM is actually a casual game programmed to make some money? Or do you just like to object? Talking with you is a little strenuous... at least it appears so to me.


I think that he keeps the code because he likes fun from providing secrets to players. He likes when players discuss about ADOM, when players create extensive guides based on playing (not based on code analysis), and get excited from discovering unknown things implemented in the closed code.

Yeah, I think so, too. So why exactly did you quote the 1.8 million dollar pharse again?

[Stingray1]

Going to I:1 and I:2 back and forth might be easy and you can even reach experience level 50 this way, but come-on try to imagine that the character is really alive and has important things to do than grinding for experience and items. You are of course allowed to play the game any which way you like.

But don't come with bullshit about it being easy, I:1 and I:2 is not ADoM.

[heavensblade23]

I think the OP hits on an interesting point: the feedback during the resurrection campaign was an echo chamber of people that were already invested in the status quo and not much thought was given to attracting new players or who exactly would be purchasing the eventual Steam version. The game mechanics are still obtuse and it still takes way too many keyboard commands to play the game. More recent entries in the genre have done a much better job both in transparency of how the game actually works and how easy it is to control the darn thing.

[Singbird]

I think the OP hits on an interesting point: the feedback during the resurrection campaign was an echo chamber of people that were already invested in the status quo and not much thought was given to attracting new players or who exactly would be purchasing the eventual Steam version. The game mechanics are still obtuse and it still takes way too many keyboard commands to play the game. More recent entries in the genre have done a much better job both in transparency of how the game actually works and how easy it is to control the darn thing.

What do you consider difficult to achieve in the ADOM interface?

As for transparency of how it works. Well in my opinion this is not a good or a bad thing, it's just a different decision. I certainly don't need to know the exact formulas for melee damage for example. I don't need to have a piety meter to know when I'm extremely close. I don't need to know how much extra damage Nonnak takes from fire. In fact I hardly know which formulas are even present in the manual. I don't know how much my spell knowledge is reduced from casting spells. I know basically nothing. But I do know mimics can paralyze you. I do know Keethrax can drain your stats. I do know trying to dive directly to Dwarftown is pretty dangerous for most PCs. I'd say I know a lot of the actually USEFUL information, not the useless tidbits. Or did you mean something else by transparency?

For me ADOM is easy to control, but that's of course because I've played it for a long time. Whenever I try to get into a new roguelike I kind of hit a small obstacle because of the controls. What roguelikes do you think are easier to control?

[dfTruF]

Apart from that, what do you want to express with this statement? That I was wrong and ADOM is actually a casual game programmed to make some money? Or do you just like to object? Talking with you is a little strenuous... at least it appears so to me.



Yeah, I think so, too. So why exactly did you quote the 1.8 million dollar pharse again?


Just my sincere opinion from playing experience (with regard to aspects). I've started playing ADOM after Mordor - rogue-like experience 2000 years after Christ (when I was in a college). So I play it (with huge breaks) over 10 years, parallel with Angband[s] (among others).
No, ADOM was not created to make money. I guess (I hope that I will say it for sure) that Thomas is an intelligent and wise man so he should not be greedy.
No, I don't like to object. This is only fantasy about improvements.
I quoted 1.8 million dollar phrase to emphasize that calculation. Why not 2.3, or 5.5 million$? When someone is joking then he just says "million dollar silk".

[dfTruF]

Going to I:1 and I:2 back and forth might be easy and you can even reach experience level 50 this way

As I said it before: "Playing ADOM and most other rogue-like games is about balancing alertness in the middle, between two extremes - frustration from overestimation of your power and boredom from grinding cowardly."

[GordonOverkill]

As I said it before: "Playing ADOM and most other rogue-like games is about balancing alertness in the middle, between two extremes - frustration from overestimation of your power and boredom from grinding cowardly."

The art of playing a roguelike is chosing the pace that you enjoy most. If you feel boringly overpowered, just grind a little less. It is an advantage if a game allows different paces for different players, at least in my eyes.

[dfTruF]

The art of playing a roguelike is chosing the pace that you enjoy most.

Well said - "the art".

[dfTruF]

For me ADOM is easy to control, but that's of course because I've played it for a long time. Whenever I try to get into a new roguelike I kind of hit a small obstacle because of the controls. What roguelikes do you think are easier to control?

For example - Angband[s] are easier to control.

[gut]

> its hard to find commands.

run adom with -r switch and edit out the ones that you will never use. print it and be happy

whoops, just tested that and realized it needs to be run through dosbox for it to even work these days -_-

also, it may be /r for windows... or dosbox... whatever

[KyoShinda]

I think they should elaborate on some of the commands in the help menu, considering there's like 3 pick-ups etc.

I also think they should get rid of redundant displays, anything that lists info that is already displayed in the character information, such as burden levels, although you could argue that they are a quicker access to where you don't have to be in a menu to see.

[Stingray1]

No, I use all those. Ctrl-e, :b, M, W. I would actually like it if they were permanently disdplayed. I only use character information screen to look at attributes, during training stage of game. In fact, I never used it before I was spoiled about herbs.

[magpie]

For example - Angband[s] are easier to control.

But Angband is booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring. ;)

My main problem at first with ADOM was the luck involved with working out certain mechanics which are basically essential (like blessing water, using stuff from the backpack ... ) So basically, I agree with you - but you must admit, ADOM is a very well documented game, and a lot of problems people have with ADOM controls comes simply from not RTFM. ;)

Also, I am adamant that I will not savescum (and, ironically, it's easier to work out how to savescum than it is to work out a lot of game commands), so winning a game still eludes me. I've come so, so close a few times. But that's okay - most of the fun with ADOM is getting to D:50 in the first place, which will take hundreds of dead characters.

[StViers]

As someone who has finally hit D:50 (I underestimated balors on my way to lever 2 >_<) I agree with Magpie 100%

[BlitzerkidSix]

When I was about 16, I resolved to sit down and read the entire manual. I was a much better and more cautious player after that. I made a cheat-sheet of useful commands and how to use different items. I make copies of it for new people. I play ADOM the best when I take notes, and frequent breaks to consider my options. This is a complex, cerebral game and I like it that way.

[dfTruF]

But Angband is booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring. ;)


If you play in boring style then you feel boredom, this is normal.
Almost every rogue like game gives three general ways of playing:
*risky (full of stress from permadeaths, gambling) - fast progress;
*middle (balancing alertness, good risk estimation) - moderate progress;
*grinding (boring) - slow progress.

ADOM, and Angband[s], are not an exception.

Free hand in taking elastic risk - this is the main reason why rogue like games have more depth and freedom than over 99 percent of other games (especially current, snazzy, full blown, million dollar productions).

[magpie]

As someone who has finally hit D:50 (I underestimated balors on my way to lever 2 >_<)

Balors are easy - if you have a powerful missile attack ready to deal with them.

Meleeing them is a massive risk - not just because of the power of their attacks (although at D:50 they crit you for a lot, and in one run I can remember, I was reduced to 1HP by balor attacks only because I have Lucky and Fate Smiles instrinsics and the ankh), but the massive corruption they pile on you at a point in the game where corruption really is the single biggest risk to you.

Actually, that was the closest I've come to a solid win with a melee character - I was 2 steps away from hitting the second lever and being home and hosed, and background corruption turned me into a WMoPC. After the game ended, I realised that if I hadn't stopped on D:47 to loot a greater humanoid vault, I would have had enough time to hit that lever and win the game. Valuable lesson there. :D

[adom-admin]

My main problem at first with ADOM was the luck involved with working out certain mechanics which are basically essential (like blessing water, using stuff from the backpack ... ) So basically, I agree with you - but you must admit, ADOM is a very well documented game, and a lot of problems people have with ADOM controls comes simply from not RTFM. ;)


Starting with ADOM 1.2.0p21 there is a new tutorial mode that tries to explore the various most important commands to you in a context-sensitive fashion. Additionally it includes a small beginner dungeon to start right away.

I hope that there will be a lot of suggestions on how to extend the tutorial in a meaningful way once p21 has been released. So far I am pretty happy but there surely is a lot more that could be done.

[adom-admin]

the large number of commands and they way they are just listed in the help is a hassle. the commands should be organized better into tabs with more common commands at the front and the others listed as 'extra commands' and such. its hard to find commands.

How do you like the re-organization in the online command help that we recently introduced?

[adom-admin]

I think the OP hits on an interesting point: the feedback during the resurrection campaign was an echo chamber of people that were already invested in the status quo and not much thought was given to attracting new players or who exactly would be purchasing the eventual Steam version. The game mechanics are still obtuse and it still takes way too many keyboard commands to play the game. More recent entries in the genre have done a much better job both in transparency of how the game actually works and how easy it is to control the darn thing.

I'm eager to receive as many specific suggestions as possible. While ADOM is not going to be transformed into a cheap clone of some other game ae are happy to improve the UI. Among the new features of the upcoming ADOM 1.2.0p21 are
- a new tutorial mode with hints and some game simplifications when starting out that gradually are removed the more experienced the character becomes (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2606)
- an introductory dungeon (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2596)
- a hint system that gets used throughout the tutorial mode (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2607)
- a word based filter for inventories (my personal favorite, http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2173)
- new icons for the graphical mode that immediately show monster and PC statuses, disposition and more (no official RFE for that)
- simplifications for missile stacking (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1705)
- preferring hostile over non-hostile monsters when targeting (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2674)
- improvements to the look command (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2665)
- and minor stuff like adding synonyms for some items which confuse people again and again (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=1761)