Thoughts on buffing Andor Drakon

[JellySlayer]

I was thinking about submitting an RFE requesting a buff to Andor Drakon, but my ideas for exactly what it would look like aren't fully fleshed out, so I thought I'd post here first to get some feedback.

Basic idea: My feeling is that Andor is kind of a pushover. If you have appropriate resistances and enough SoCR to resist corruption, you can pretty much always kill him. Getting these items and resistances is really just an extension of the requirements to fight him; you need the Chaos Trinity/ToTRR, you need to be crowned, you need -Para and -Death. The battle itself isn't all that interesting either... he's got a tonne of hit points, but there's little strategy involved. You just need to keep hitting him.

Possible ways to improve him:

-His melee attack is really quite pitiful. An endgame character is likely to have enough PV/DV (60/60 is plenty) to essentially take no damage from his attacks. I'd suggest increasing the potency of his attacks--perhaps making them armor punching even.
-Immunity to paralysis. I think/hope this was already implemented, but otherwise... this seems like a no-brainer.
-Have him teleport occasionally. The AI isn't very smart with its teleport usage. AD will teleport if you stun/confuse him, but otherwise won't. Having him teleport more tactically (either across the level so you're forced to chase him, or just a couple steps away so you have to deal with summons/projectile) might be an interesting twist. Having him teleport frequently would probably be too annoying, but making it a possibility while he's in melee range might be nice.
-Give him the ability to disarm you or destroy equipment. Nasty business there.
-Unique special abilities. This could be anything, really. Maybe divine powers? Bolts of pure energy, inventory cursing/dusting, etc. Ability to remove intrinsics? Other ideas?
-More Chaos plane weirdness. How about having random room effects occasionally kick in? Sometimes the plane will randomly acquire the property (for a short period of time) that the directions are reversed, or that melee defense is increased, or the murder room effect? Other effects?

I'd argue that if his difficulty is increased through these sorts of methods, perhaps his HP could be dropped somewhat. The amount he has is a little unnecessary, IMHO.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I've never fought Andor Drakon because I find ultras boring, so I don't care much either way. But the question is: would he be a pushover also for an unspoiled player, or is he a pushover because highly spoiled players can beat him with his highly scummed chars?

People tend to wish for speed and use lots of speed-boosting items for that fight, so maybe it isn't so easy, is it?

Although as I mentioned I don't have first-person experience on this so I don't have a valuable opinion, I say this because I know that experienced ADOM players tend to err a lot on the side of buffing due to being immensely spoiled and playing with lots of scumming techniques that an average player doesn't use.

[JellySlayer]

I honestly do not believe that it is possible to reach Andor Drakon without being spoiled. I guess someone must've done it at some point, unless the original info about him is all code-dived. But yes, the battle (like Chaos Gate access) pretty much goes two ways--either you kill him fairly easily or you die instantly because you don't have paralysis/death ray resistance.

I've killed him with relatively unscummed, relatively normal speed (~130ish) characters before. He's fast (~200 speed), but his speed isn't really that much of a threat because his damage output is so low. If you have -Para and -Death, you're most at risk of either death by corruption or death by stat drain.

Ultra hopefuls are going to have significantly better-than-average stats and gear as it is...

[kordi82]

I like most of the ideas.

- chaos plane room kicking in.
- having to chase him is even more nasty than having to fight him due to severe corruption.
- no paralysis is a no-brainer. Or at least make it last very shortly.
- I also like disarming - one would have to have more than one source of DR resistance. However, destroying items + disarming + his speed + paralysis is just too much. He could destroy your amulet of DR resistance, disarm you and hit you with a DR basically in one turn or after paralyzing you. Remeber that even with resistance paralysis lasts quite long.
- punching through armor is ok, but with paralysis would be too much... same reasons as above. Imagine him constantly punching through your armor and paralyzing you for few turns. Then disarming and then Death Raying....


My ideas:
- What about him having "pain mirror" ability that he could turn on. What you do to him is done to you. Or reverse - if you boost yourself similar boost is on his side
- what about him being able to change shapes so that you cannot reliably slam him one slayer type. I.e. once he is undead, then he is unlife, then he is humanoid, then he is a ...plant :D.
- he could have corruption breath like Keriax
- he could turn on and off traits of certain monsters - i.e. once in a while he would acquire doppleganger's ability to dodge missles, or become karmic creature for few turns, then he would be quickling like etc.
- and my favorite idea would be to make him resistant gradually to the type of attacks you inflict upon him.... i.e. you hit him with Acid Ball... next Acid balls will take less dmg. This would add variety as player would have to have a few aces in his sleeve to get rid of him and would not be able to rely on one trick (btw. same way paralysis resistance could work)

Generally I like adding more ChAoS to him as you suggested so there would not be any fool-proof strategy against him and that the player would have to be prepared for everything.

[JellySlayer]

I like most of the ideas.

- chaos plane room kicking in.
- having to chase him is even more nasty than having to fight him due to severe corruption.
- no paralysis is a no-brainer. Or at least make it last very shortly.
- I also like disarming - one would have to have more than one source of DR resistance. However, destroying items + disarming + his speed + paralysis is just too much. He could destroy your amulet of DR resistance, disarm you and hit you with a DR basically in one turn or after paralyzing you. Remeber that even with resistance paralysis lasts quite long.
- punching through armor is ok, but with paralysis would be too much... same reasons as above. Imagine him constantly punching through your armor and paralyzing you for few turns. Then disarming and then Death Raying....

Well, -Death can be provided by multiple artifacts. AMW is very good for Andor since it gives -Death and -SeeI anyway... Crown of Chaos also provides -Death, and you need that. Amulet of raw steel is another. Paralysis resist is more of an issue, since only a very few items give it, and none of the guaranteed artifacts are among them. Item destruction might make it a little too luck-based I suppose. Though maybe giving -Para to the Medal or Crown of Chaos could be an interesting tradeoff.


- what about him being able to change shapes so that you cannot reliably slam him one slayer type. I.e. once he is undead, then he is unlife, then he is humanoid, then he is a ...plant :D.
- he could have corruption breath like Keriax
- he could turn on and off traits of certain monsters - i.e. once in a while he would acquire doppleganger's ability to dodge missles, or become karmic creature for few turns, then he would be quickling like etc.

I like these. Might be best to combine them even. Give him four or five forms (normal, dragon, beast, grue, lich...) with different abilities and weaknesses. Dragon/Wyrm one could do corrupting bolts, say, and another might be karmic or missile resistant.

[_Ln_]

Corruption breath is a nice idea to use the unique feature of ChAoS PlAnE to change itself. Currently, as soon as you hit him with a PoCC, corruption ceases to be a big problem (unless you are really low on corruption removal).

What I would also like from this line of thought is a more generic feature for phasing monsters - you are still able to hit creatures in walls with both melee and missile attacks despite them being in walls. I've been meaning to post an RFE about that. Now this supposedly can make the fight more dangerous, as the environment may shift to include AD in a wall and you will have to clear summons around you to lure him out and be able to damage. Of course you may still use ball spells.

Speaking about ball spells - why not add him the ability to cast all elemental ball spells? These are obviously undodgeable, can destroy equipment and will make currently more or less unused rings of elemental mastery more of a interesting choice. We'll have to provide either damage or aggro immunity for his minions though (otherwise they will attack him).

EDIT: We'll need to cut out ToTRR elemental immunities for this to work which is probably fine though.

Switching abilities is also a good thing. Preferably a set of abilities could be turned on to increase the random factor (for example, become karmic and doppelganger at the same time).

Other stuff may include:
- Copying himself (a la Baal from Diablo 2). We already have this for EG.
- Momentaliry disabling teleport control and teleporting the PC (I don't think he does that now even without the first step).


I've never fought Andor Drakon because I find ultras boring, so I don't care much either way. But the question is: would he be a pushover also for an unspoiled player, or is he a pushover because highly spoiled players can beat him with his highly scummed chars?

People tend to wish for speed and use lots of speed-boosting items for that fight, so maybe it isn't so easy, is it?

Although as I mentioned I don't have first-person experience on this so I don't have a valuable opinion, I say this because I know that experienced ADOM players tend to err a lot on the side of buffing due to being immensely spoiled and playing with lots of scumming techniques that an average player doesn't use.

Did a quick search around my wins on servers. Does this char (http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/ln/salacia.flg) look too scummed? Can't evaluate what stats were before they were drained (I guess somewhat higher), but this looks to be done in ~64k turns (which means she was scummed but not extensively).

[Stingray1]

Sorry, I haven't read any posts, will later, but just a quick thing.

He probably has been buffed since pre7, I know I lost to him at least once after pre7. So he is perhaps not such a pushover anymore.

Anyway, isn't the consensus that endgame characters should beat anything and not really die.

[grobblewobble]

-His melee attack is really quite pitiful. An endgame character is likely to have enough PV/DV (60/60 is plenty) to essentially take no damage from his attacks. I'd suggest increasing the potency of his attacks--perhaps making them armor punching even.
Yes, his melee attack could be upped. Maybe he should score more criticals?


-Immunity to paralysis. I think/hope this was already implemented
I don't think it is, not yet.


-Unique special abilities. This could be anything, really. Maybe divine powers? Bolts of pure energy, inventory cursing/dusting, etc. Ability to remove intrinsics? Other ideas?
I think the ability to curse the PC like witches seems appropriate?

A strong healing spell maybe?


I'd argue that if his difficulty is increased through these sorts of methods, perhaps his HP could be dropped somewhat.
He has like 10k hitpoints now, doesn't he?

[JellySlayer]

Yes, he has 10k, IIRC.

[Carter]

I honestly do not believe that it is possible to reach Andor Drakon without being spoiled. I guess someone must've done it at some point, unless the original info about him is all code-dived. But yes, the battle (like Chaos Gate access) pretty much goes two ways--either you kill him fairly easily or you die instantly because you don't have paralysis/death ray resistance.


the first win was a ULE but it followed the OCG ending which was around for years prior so there wasn't too much of a jump.

[Carter]

Did a quick search around my wins on servers. Does this char (http://ancardia.us.to/adom_users/ln/salacia.flg) look too scummed? Can't evaluate what stats were before they were drained (I guess somewhat higher), but this looks to be done in ~64k turns (which means she was scummed but not extensively).

224 base speed suggests a wish for speed was used.

I think that is the current key for Andor... i've tried it without a speed boost and is it a difficult fight simply because he has an absurd amount of HP.

I'd lower the HP and make his attack much more powerful so he is actually a threat. at the moment anyone who dies, dies from stat draining or corruption, not melee attacks.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I honestly do not believe that it is possible to reach Andor Drakon without being spoiled.
And this is a problem which should be fixed IMO.

[JellySlayer]

I've done it at least once without speed that I can find. I didn't comment in my notes on the .flg about the battle being very interesting. Then again, this character apparently used Justifier for most of the fight, so it probably went a lot faster than usual. My equipment is quite mediocre, actually. Stats aren't bad, but not outrageous.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Screenshot
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


## ### #### ####
...###... #C.C .#.
........... #CC.# ..
#.##.#...#.. .oos ##.
.....#..# #... CCC CC#
.#.#......# ##. CY sC#
#....#..##..##.. #C#C.
#...#...##. ###CCj
#.. #YCCC#
##&Y@#
#.#s#&CCjs...#
#.....Co.CC.###.o#....#.#
#......s.#s#CsCsCC....##......#
#........#..Y.##...###&.##.# .#.# ..#
.##..#.###..#....s. #.. ...#.#..# ##
... #..#.#........ ... ###......#
.. ##......#..#.s ..## .#.......#
#..#.##. #...s. ...# ..#...#...
##... # #...#.. ...# ....## .#
### ####### ##### ####
Drakepal St:52 Le:26 Wi:34 Dx:43 To:49 Ch:11 Ap:12 Ma:42 Pe:20 L+
DV/PV: 43/58 H: 829(975) P: 0(650) Exp: 50/29303283 ChAoS Sp: 132
Blessed Invisible Bloated Berserk

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 4858 stones Carrying capacity: 11475 stones

He: blessed eternium cap (+1, +1) [+0, +6] [28s]
Ne: uncursed amulet of light [3s]
Bo: blessed red dragon scale mail (-1, -4) [+1, +13] [220s]
Gi: blessed girdle of strength [+0, +0] {St+4} [15s]
Cl: blessed cloak of defense [+4, +0] [20s]
RH: blessed Trident of the Red Rooster (+36, 6d12+18) [+12, +12] {Ma+24}
LH: -
RR: blessed ring of slaying (+6 melee damage, +6 missile damage) [1s]
LR: blessed ring of mental stability [+2, +1] {Le+1} [1s]
Br: blessed bracers of defense [+4, +0] [10s]
Ga: blessed elemental gauntlets (-1, +0) [+0, +3] [10s]
Bo: blessed seven league boots [+1, +3] [30s]
MW: -
Mi: -
Tl: -

[Carter]

I've done it at least once without speed that I can find. I didn't comment in my notes on the .flg about the battle being very interesting. Then again, this character apparently used Justifier for most of the fight, so it probably went a lot faster than usual. My equipment is quite mediocre, actually. Stats aren't bad, but not outrageous.


Assume its a paladin.

I've died twice to Andy and killed him 4 times (twice with an archmage so not really that relevant), so my ratio isn't that good - imho that is about right for that kind of battle.

The first death was with an underprepared Wizard who didn't cast spells in the battle, he died pretty quickly. Was quite unspoiled for the battle.
The other was a weapon smith who died because he just couldn't do enough damage, eventually his stats got drained and died

[Spellweaver]

I've killed him with barbarian without wish for speed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Screenshot
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


###### ############
#..#..### # . .# # ..
##..#. # ## ..# ##...
####.. ## ## . #.#
.. #.# # # #. # #..#
. ## #.# ### # .....
. #### ..# . .# .#....
#.. . ## .....
# #..##### ..# ### .####
...# # ###.#.# .# #.#
# . # #jj.# # # ...
####.jj.## # .......#
#.j@jjj# # ##..#.#.
#.jj#....# .#......#
#...#jj ##.# ...#.###
####.#.### .###....
#. .#.#. .# ..#...#
#.###.# #. ..#..#..
#.. #### ##.....## .
### #########
Meara St:54 Le:23 Wi:31 Dx:51 To:45 Ch:16 Ap:23 Ma:48 Pe:26 N=
DV/PV: 55/67 H:1176(1176) P:0(615) Exp: 50/37807837 ChAoS Sp: 156
Blessed Bloated Berserk
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventory
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total weight: 14562 stones Carrying capacity: 20719 stones

He: blessed rustproof crown of regeneration [+0, +0] [55s]
Ne: blessed amulet of life saving [3s]
Bo: uncursed eternium plate mail (-1, -2) [+4, +16] [240s]
Gi: blessed girdle of giant strength [+3, +4] {St+12} [30s]
Cl: blessed cloak of protection [+0, +4] [20s]
RH: blessed Trident of the Red Rooster (+36, 6d12+18) [+12, +12] {Ma+24}
LH: -
RR: uncursed ring of the master cat [+0, +5] {Dx+16} (+16 spd) [1s]
LR: blessed ring of slaying (+6 melee damage, +6 missile damage) [1s]
Br: uncursed bracers of toughness [+0, +0] {To+6} [10s]
Ga: blessed thick gauntlets (-1, -2) [+0, +4] [15s]
Bo: blessed seven league boots [+1, +4] [30s]
MW: uncursed rustproof light crossbow of accuracy (+10, +1) [70s]
Mi: blessed quarrel of humanoid slaying (+4, 2d6+3) [4s]
Tl: uncursed everburning torch [+1, +0] [10s]


It was a powerful barbarian though.

[Stingray1]

Andor Drakon confuses, he casts darkness he casts deathray. He deflects PoCC. I think he is =para, not 100 percent sure. He teleports when disabled. He drains stats. Among other which I don't think of right now.

This guy is pretty buff. You can't waste too many turns there, otherwise you will just be a j shortly.

Besides, he does already kill scummed stat characters controlled by spoiled, experienced players. I think the HP is fine to put the player under immense pressure to get the job done.

I remember in most all my fights against him, I was on the edge of my seat gritting my teeth to the bone.

[Spellweaver]

Andor Drakon confuses, he casts darkness he casts deathray. He deflects PoCC. I think he is =para, not 100 percent sure. He teleports when disabled. He drains stats. Among other which I don't think of right now.

This guy is pretty buff. You can't waste too many turns there, otherwise you will just be a j shortly.

Besides, he does already kill scummed stat characters controlled by spoiled, experienced players. I think the HP is fine to put the player under immense pressure to get the job done.

I remember in most all my fights against him, I was on the edge of my seat gritting my teeth to the bone.

The problem of Andor, unlike other powerful enemies, it that he never kills you fast. So, you always have time to do something to him.

[Stingray1]

The problem of Andor, unlike other powerful enemies, it that he never kills you fast. So, you always have time to do something to him.

Very few enemies in the game can kill the hero standing next to Andor fast. Maybe only the banshee.

Look Andor must be difficult, which he is. Is all I'm saying.

[JellySlayer]

He deflects PoCC. I think he is =para, not 100 percent sure.

Paralysis is a fairly common way to kill him. PoCC work fine against him and rob him of his corrupting attacks.

[Spellweaver]

Very few enemies in the game can kill the hero standing next to Andor fast. Maybe only the banshee.

Look Andor must be difficult, which he is. Is all I'm saying.

Even ancient dragons can, depending on character.

[Stingray1]

I was referring to the Andor Drakon in the current prereleases. Have you fought a post prerelease 7 Andor Drakon, hmm? Are you telling me I imagined the text on my screen? Andor Drakon the chaos whatever deflects the blessed potion of cure corruption. The blessed potion of cure corruption shatters.

And doing a ULE or chaos knight doesn't count because corruption is a non-issue then.

If a character cannot survive ancient dragons then he was very lucky to reach the chaos plane.

[_Ln_]

Are you telling me I imagined the text on my screen? Andor Drakon the chaos whatever deflects the blessed potion of cure corruption. The blessed potion of cure corruption shatters.

I've used a PoCC against him in p13 without any trouble.

[gut]

let any buff be based upon adjusting to the PC's power

[kordi82]

let any buff be based upon adjusting to the PC's power

I disagree:
- how do you measure power? Stats? Damage? Spells possessed? Instricts? Pv?
- how do you want to link certain buff to mentioned power? System would be too complex and most likely would not work as intented and there would be tons of workarounds? i.e. if he would get buffier depending on you PV people would start to remove their own PV and would compensate with healing ... and other absurds like that.

- Last but not least... Why would you penalize characters that put effort into preparation?

IMHO the best way to buff him is to force players to apply vast majority of tacticts against him and not only one i.e. paralysis or pounding humanoid slayers at him. This would force players to build their characters more *rounded*. Hence was the idea of shape shifting... but if anyone has another idea to achieve similar goal this would also be welcome.

[gut]

how to adjust in power? Bosses do this already. Reports indicate that if you leave killing keethrax until xl 50 he is nearly as dangerous as the archmage.

[kordi82]

how to adjust in power? Bosses do this already. Reports indicate that if you leave killing keethrax until xl 50 he is nearly as dangerous as the archmage.

So you are saying Andor should adjust to your experience level then... hmm... that's a veeeery interesting idea. It is so interesting that I am speachless. Really.

And seriously. Character's level has little to do with power. I will take down i.e. Keriax with level 30 mindcrafter with much greater ease than with level 50 barbarian. So I will ask once again. How do you define *power*. How exactly you would like this to work?

[gut]

enter smc with xl 1 character with hacked stats to 99 and see what monsters are genned there.

leave the snarking to others

[kordi82]

and is there anything of value you want to add? stats do not constitute power either.... In other words .... details, details baby..



What I am pointing out to you is:
1. There are too many variables in Adom determining player's power. Despite best efforts you will not be able to balance this system properly.
i.e. if system is based on stats then is it on base stat or overall stat? If overall stat, you will randomize gameplay depending on set of corruptions you have. If base stat then people having good equipment will be preferred to ones having good base stats. Charisma and appearecnce do not have the same value to the player as i.e. strength Stats do not issues such as powerful artifacts. Paladin with low stats and purifier will be prefered to one with good stats. Why? Duelist with high weapon polearms mark willl and low stats is much stronger than one with good stats..... etc. TOO MANY VARIABLES.

2. However intricate the abuse preventing system will be people will find ways to deliberately lowering Andor's power. I.e. they will keep all the potions until they enter chaos plane. They will drink cursed potions of charisma before the fight begins ... and other stupid nonesense like this. In one year we will have another wall of RFE saying that you can kill him too easily.

3. Lastly, why do you want to penalize people who prepare themselves for the fight? I seriiously do not understand this logic.

[Mobius]

Why over think it? Just make it if you don't slay A.D. with the ToRR, he comes back again, stronger.
You want to slay him 5 times for the challenge? Go for it! but if you die, it's for naught.

[anon123]

I only skimmed through the thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned already. But most if not all of the people who have posted here are pros with tons of experience and several wins under their belt, so it makes sense that you'd find him an easy boss.

As far as I'm concerned, Andor Drakon is a formidable opponent. His HP is monstrous in ADOM terms, he confuses, teleports, paralyzes, drains stats, summons and ton other stuff, in addition to residing on a changing, massively corrupting level, half the ultra ending flavors available requiring you to be nearly a purple 'j' when you enter it. And I probably shouldn't even know all that, because despite playing for close to 7 years, I've never been even somewhat close to scoring an ultra. Chances an average and/or unspoiled player knows Andy even exists are low, and even in the off chance they manage to reach him (really off, considering the nearly nonexistent amount of in-game hints about this; which isn't necessarily a bad thing), they may not know about things that for you are simply part of a pre-entering-the-ChAoS-plane checklist, like sources of -Para or -Deth.

Even if you made him a undead demonic dragon golem with 2000 speed that breathes death rays and corruption bolts and is immune to everything, someone would eventually find a method or combination thereof that works to defeat him, and the situation would become the same. It would only be a large setback for those who don't read spoilers, whatever the reason.

Anyway, just wanted to express how I feel on this.

[kordi82]

Anon123, I think that the thread is more about making him interesting to fight than buffing him.

[gut]

it doesn't matter. if you reach andor without the spoilers+savescumming tactic (yeah, right) , you will just die anyway.

[Grey]

-More Chaos plane weirdness. How about having random room effects occasionally kick in? Sometimes the plane will randomly acquire the property (for a short period of time) that the directions are reversed, or that melee defense is increased, or the murder room effect? Other effects?

This is what I'd like to see most. The walls should move every turn. I messed about with chaotic walls in UNSTOPPABLE and it is seriously mind-fucking, which is exactly what the Chaos Plane should be like. Make the chaos walls behave like Game of Life, but random ones appearing and disappearing all the time and the Life rules changing now and then.

Chaos rivers should appear and wind around the map. Stepping in them drowns and corrupts.

Andor should be paralyse resistant, but also stun resistant otherwise thieves will be unable to kill him. He should teleport more often.

There should be more greater balors on the level and Andor should summon greater balors. Multiple opponents become far trickier than 1.

There should be mini Keriax dragons. Multi-headed corruption dragons with corrupting breath. D50 could do with a couple of these too - one in each of the monster-filled chambers perhaps.

Andor should have his HP reduced. If these interesting details are added then the current HP is just stupid. Half his current HP would still be too much.

[Carter]

I guess the issue with those ideas is it isn't really a "1 on 1 fight to death" as opposed to a "defeat the forces of chaos" type scenario you are talking about.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I think what anon says makes sense and hits the nail on the head.

[kordi82]

I think what anon says makes sense and hits the nail on the head.

I disagree. Taking into account view of "inexperienced" players is a good thing... but taking into account ONLY their view is wrong. Remember that those "experienced" players are the ones who promote the game the most.

[Stingray1]

I was able to find the trinity.

If you asked me whether I would have figured out in what way to the enter the gate, I think there was a decent chance if I had continued playing unspoiled.

Chances are good I would have been crowned and upon failing because according to Andor I wasn't wearing the insignia correctly, the next time around I would have worn it correctly.

The 'being very corrupted' I'm not sure of, what is the message when you fail that check?

So, I think having it a fair battle for an unspoiled player is relevant. Although it seems I'm one of a few that has beaten ADoM on his own, but who says everyone should be able to figure the game out.

Besides TB has already added the Chaos Knight to help out in the regard, who knows what else he might have in store. I think we should maybe wait till all the new content has been added.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I disagree. Taking into account view of "inexperienced" players is a good thing... but taking into account ONLY their view is wrong. Remember that those "experienced" players are the ones who promote the game the most.
But his point is that it isn't even that relevant for experienced players. If you set a higher bar of requirements, experienced players are just going to read them in the spoilers and gather them all.

[BlitzerkidSix]

I think this part of the game is perfectly fine the way it is. All I hear is a handful of experienced, nay, truly elite, players proposing changes specifically to challenge them, personally. I am experienced (nine wins, no ultras); anyone bored with the Elder Chaos God is elite. My two cents. Have a nice day, everyone.

[JellySlayer]

I only skimmed through the thread, so apologies if this has been mentioned already. But most if not all of the people who have posted here are pros with tons of experience and several wins under their belt, so it makes sense that you'd find him an easy boss.

As far as I'm concerned, Andor Drakon is a formidable opponent. His HP is monstrous in ADOM terms, he confuses, teleports, paralyzes, drains stats, summons and ton other stuff, in addition to residing on a changing, massively corrupting level, half the ultra ending flavors available requiring you to be nearly a purple 'j' when you enter it. And I probably shouldn't even know all that, because despite playing for close to 7 years, I've never been even somewhat close to scoring an ultra. Chances an average and/or unspoiled player knows Andy even exists are low, and even in the off chance they manage to reach him (really off, considering the nearly nonexistent amount of in-game hints about this; which isn't necessarily a bad thing), they may not know about things that for you are simply part of a pre-entering-the-ChAoS-plane checklist, like sources of -Para or -Deth.

Okay, first, I certainly agree that the hints regarding the ultra requirements are very opaque and this needs to be improved. Forcing players to do trial-and-error on gate entry where failure results in the death of level 50 character is pretty ridiculous. I don't think it's unreasonable that various NPCs should provide more details on this.

It's worth noting that the ToTRR supplies -Death, as does the Crown of Chaos. Players by this point will have already fought the Chaos Archmage, who does invis, darkness, death ray, stat drain, confusion, and will have to fight with near-zero PP for the entire battle. Players should not be overly surprised to find that a much more powerful boss will use the same abilities and will have appropriate resistances. The major differences that Andor brings to the battle that are different from the Archmage are: Paralysis, higher speed, and more HP. The shifting walls in the Chaos plane have little effect in practice, since you basically have to fight him in melee range even if you intend on using missiles to do damage. Chaos plane is highly corrupting, but you've seen that before as well--you've already been through the Scintillating Cave or the SIL, as well as D:50.

The problem, as I see it, is that the battle with Andor isn't a tactical battle at all. You have to press left sixty or seventy times, and you kill him. That's it, with a few periodic stops for PoUH or SoCR. His monstrous HP doesn't affect the difficulty of the battle per se, it just affects the calculation of whether your collection of SoCR/PoUH are sufficient to overcome the stat drains/death rays/corruption of the area. But the entire battle is purely algorithmic--the conclusion is more or less inevitable the moment you enter the gate. You either have enough supplies and can do enough damage or you don't. Like Grey, I'd be quite happy dropping his HP by half, or two thirds, or whatever is appropriate for balance purposes, but make the battle more interesting and less of a chore.

[Stingray1]

If you give him Keriax's random bolt, he's going to annihilate the WMoPCs giving you space to move out of direct line. It would have worked for some item destruction otherwise and manuevering to stay out of direct line, might even still.

If you give him random ball spells he's also killing the jellies, could also have helped with item destruction otherwise.

Making him teleport away, will be unfair, if he does it too often as you said, but could be interesting.

I don't think there is many room effects that will have an impact, but two of them could be interesting. Wrong perception, shifting wind maybe.

You can give him item destruction abilities like a Annihilator, but then the player just needs to stay out of melee range, which most players maybe do anyway to avoid stat drains and paralysis and damage. It does sometimes get tricky with walls and jellies that are in the way, but that is what teleportation is for.

If you take away teleportation on the plane, then many characters will maybe just become a j before even getting near him.

With the walls changing and jellies all around it is already somewhat interesting.

It all depends on what character you bring to the fight on how interesting it is, I suppose.

What could maybe work is if you make him hit harder and more and teleport into melee range like unicorns like doing, but then I feel very sorry for a duelist.

[Stingray1]

What could be interesting is if the ChAoS pLaNe alters even the player character. We already know the landscape changes occasionally. We also see chaos knights changing on every turn.

I'm thinking, maybe have the effects of corruption change on every few turns. Make the player character's worn items change every few turns to random ones, maybe not the artifacts though.

Edit - Oi, where did my 600 blessed spenseweed go, I did not put no cursed stetoscope there. No, no, no, not my only blessed glass amulet. Maybe, well get to use those 30 torches or 10 crystals of light in our backpack.

Who knew even the ChAoS pLaNe had grues lurking in the shadows, snicker.

[asdf]

Apply temporary potion of exchange effect on player every several turns. Could be too cruel, i know, i know. But ChAoTiC too!

[Blasphemous]

Since this is the very last battle in the entire game, the culmination of all your valiant efforts, I feel it should require you to use everything you've encountered in the game up until that point.
So:
- Make (powerful) traps appear randomly on chaos plane so PC is forced to either use the spell or skill to disable them or just the wand to detect and avoid. Takes time and effort.
- Make purple j's multiply so you will have to read scroll of vermin control every time Andor summons them.
- There should be fire/air temple effects kicking in occasionally so PC's without blankets will have a hard time there. Covers equipment destruction as well, at least to some extent.
- Force the player to fight while wearing all chaos insignia. Normally, players will have them unequipped on the spot after arriving through the gate and drop them. This feels a bit anticlimactic, after all the effort to obtain those powerful, legendary items, you just drop them there. Maybe Andor should regen rapidly without those items worn by the PC?
- Andor teleports randomly from what I know, so maybe similar mechanics should be applied to PC, just like in Darkforge. You can tele, but there is a small chance to be able to select destination.
- He's vulnerable to demon slaying but since we're dealing with the ultimate chaos god, maybe he should change his nature every 2-3 turns? One moment he's undead, another he's a demon, yet another humanoid, so the player has to determine his nature each time to know what is the effective means of attacking him? Of course there is TotRR which has two slaying powers but it might still be effective if all types of monsters are possible for Andy.
- Give Andor aging attack, so you will have to gather appropriate potions to counter that threat. Imagine being hit several times: "Andy hits you. You suddenly age! You feel very old! Andy hits you. You feel corrupted. Your legs stiffen slowing you down greatly! Andy hits you. Your blessed 7LBs are destroyed! Andy screams words of magic! Suddenly a multi-tentacled horror of unspeakable might appears! Andy screams words of magic! Andy curses you!" etc.


The above changes would force the player to step back, gulp proper potions, read scrolls, rearrange equipment, uncurse something, reconsider approach and only then continue. Makes battle non-linear.

[GordonOverkill]

Never even reached him, so my experience is actually not existing, but as far as I know, there is already alot of grinding required to get that far. If he should get buffed now, I think that he should definitely not be buffed in a way that forces the player to grind even more for preparation. If he is too easy to beat with the possibilities of an average char who reaches him, the aim should be to make him somehow harder to beat with that equipment, not to make him as easy to beat with even better equipment.

[Mobius]

Never even reached him, so my experience is actually not existing, but as far as I know, there is already alot of grinding required to get that far. If he should get buffed now, I think that he should definitely not be buffed in a way that forces the player to grind even more for preparation. If he is too easy to beat with the possibilities of an average char who reaches him, the aim should be to make him somehow harder to beat with that equipment, not to make him as easy to beat with even better equipment.

Just took A.D. (pre-16) on, YAVP coming soon. My quick summary:
Spells are no good, because of the making him stronger thing.
Melee is problematic,
so we're down to ranged, with all the Quarrels and Arrows of Slaying / Demon Slaying / etc.

Spam him with those, say 40 of them, till he's dead.

Problems:
boring.
AD's tactics are sit 3 spaces away and use Death Ray, despite me dodging and being resistant to them. Boring.
I didn't even run out of slaying ammo, so didn't have to go pick up the ones I left behind.
Didn't summon anything.

Imagine instead he took on the aspects of the 5 elemental guardians in sequence, then was AD at the end, but with fewer HP.

Let me use magic in the Chaos plane.

[Stingray1]

I don't know what you expect from a two dimentional roguelike, either you repetitively cast spells, shoot missiles or melee to kill opponents? If this is boring for you maybe try some other genres.

I have fought AD, what 6 times now, and the last was as exciting as the first.

Edit - I do agree ADoM generates too many items.

[Mobius]

I don't know what you expect from a two dimentional roguelike, either you repetitively cast spells, shoot missiles or melee to kill opponents? If this is boring for you maybe try some other genres.

I have fought AD, what 6 times now, and the last was as exciting as the first.

Edit - I do agree ADoM generates too many items.

Having beaten Nethack a few times, that endgame of racing back up the dungeon with the Wizard of Yendor constantly coming back, stealing the amulet, cursing stuff and so on is more challenging. And less formulaic in strategy.

And I'm a bit peeved that my character trains his magical abilities to the hilt, but needs to use scummed crossbow bolts to achieve victory. It's out of character.
(not bored, peeved you know. anti-climactic, not cinematic enough)
Perhaps Andor Drakon's control of the elemental altars is what makes him empowered by your magic - and if you can convert them (or some?) magic is effective.
Convert water, and Ice Bolt/Ball can be used. And so on.

[JellySlayer]

I've killed him in 1.1.1. with magic before. It works fine. You just have to cast from HP constantly. Might be a bit harder in 1.2.0 since HPcasting is more expensive, but it still should work. Casting only gives him a little speed, which isn't that big of a problem since most PCs are pretty speed-buffed by the time they reach him.

[Mobius]

I've killed him in 1.1.1. with magic before. It works fine. You just have to cast from HP constantly. Might be a bit harder in 1.2.0 since HPcasting is more expensive, but it still should work. Casting only gives him a little speed, which isn't that big of a problem since most PCs are pretty speed-buffed by the time they reach him.

Ah, I guess I was being paranoid. He's supposed to summon also? He forgot to do that for me, 1.2.0 r16

[grobblewobble]

as far as I know, there is already alot of grinding required to get that far.
I defeated him several times and never did any extra grinding for it. I have lost two battles, but both times it was because of dumb mistakes (one time I forgot to wear paralysis resistance and one time I prayed and got killed by the greater balors that my angry god summoned).
I never lost a battle with him from lack of grinding. If you just play normally, you'll be easily strong enough to take him at the end of the game.


Melee is problematic,
so we're down to ranged, with all the Quarrels and Arrows of Slaying / Demon Slaying / etc.

Melee is my default option. The ToTRR is just made to kill him. Huge damage, multiplied by slaying and the blessed weapon vs demon bonus. Normally, my experience is that you will kill him before the stat drains become a real problem.