More invoked commannds idea - what do you think

[kordi82]

Before I post a sensible RFE I would like to share my idea with you as it is not fully clarified yet.

IMO there should be more special command tacticts in the game invoked as a kind of "special attacks". They would be balanced by their negative effects i.e.:
- instead of giving duelist punch through armor as "passive" ability player would be able to invoke it. However if missed, it would cost 1500 energy instead of standard 500 (500 with all duelists buffs).
- weapons could have special attacks based on the weapon type you are wielding - i.e. maces could stun opponent with invoked command with similar penalty mechanism as described above. Spear could i.e. incapacitate opponents by piercing them and sticking them on the wall but only if opponent is with their back against the wall and you would be disarmed as a result. Daggers would cause criticals at the cost of player himself being more prone to critical for the next turn... Axes could damage opponents armor with the risk of getting stunned on missed hit, maces would have the ability to stun your opponent with but you would have to fight without shield to deliver stunning blow, whips could disarm opponent for one turn at the risk of diarming yourself etc.

Possibilities are limitless and would open much more strategies than are available right now. Players would have much more "strategic" options instead of press forward or run away.

This would also make weapon choices so much more interesting. Currently there are only 3 really worthwile weapon choices in the game:
- polearms - obviuosly
- maces - due too guaranteed big punch
- two handers - less obvious - but with upgraded axe of minotaur emperor these are really good right now.

All the other weapon specialties are dictated by pure luck. If you find a good weapon of a type you simply pick it up and start using. I.e. I found hammerhead early on so I used it - but normally I would never consider training axes without such incentive.

[GordonOverkill]

Interesting idea, especially the weapon features. I know this from some game that I just can't remember at the moment. Would at least make certain weapon types more attractive. But I would not give spears a special bonus, because they already have one: increased DV.

[kordi82]

You replied before I finished editing. Look again and edited version of spears idea - you would actually loose a weapon for the time oponent was hanging on the wall. Instead of fighting him in melee you would then be able to hit him with long ranged attacks.
Of course the probability would have to be balanced not to make this OP.

Oh, and similar things could be applied to ranged weapon types. Spears having ability to hang oponent on the wall would actually make them worthwhile considering as ranged weapons. I've been playing Adom for over 10 years and do not remember ever training thrown spears as :). Same thing i.e. with thrown axes, damaging opponents armor would finally give incentive to use them.

[Singbird]

Obviously I like the idea of making weapon types distinct. At the moment there's basically only three: staves and polearms (give DV), two-handed (give damage), all the others.

But what I'm not sure about is if I like it this way. I'd make the passive weapon bonuses from training more distinct to begin with I think. Especially the situation with ranged weapons is just silly to me. All of them give exactly the same bonuses. Maybe I'd even make weapons give penalties if they're at level 0 and make training at level 1 WAY more difficult (would make starting with some weapon skills at least somehow meaningful). Then make spell casters require at least ten times the weapon marks, but that's a different issue...

But basically I like the idea, maybe not specifically these, but the idea. I feel the shortcomings of the weapon mark system should first be corrected though. Or I don't know, maybe there are no shortcomings. Maybe it's intentional all weapons have more or less the same damage and the same bonuses from skill. If that's the case, then yeah. I think making the abilities useful enough but not overpowered would be quite difficult. I wouldn't specifically go out of my way and open myself to critical hits for example, I think. Only against the Ancient Stone Beast maybe. I could want to disarm ratling warlords for sure, but permanently. Not use my shield in order to stun... Tremendous blow + Hammer of the Gods, why not. But if I carry the Hammer, then I can carry Big Punch instead, too, so maybe not. Would it make sense for earth elementals to lose their PV? Or Nuurag-Vaarn, who supposedly only wears some old rags and a blackness for outfit? Probably not. I mean, against most enemies you don't NEED any special moves, and then would it be overpowered if you could just behead Shyssiryxius right away?

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I also like this idea a lot. Although I have a sense of dèja vu. Wasn't there an RFE about this already? Or maybe it was an RFE for ADOM 2?

Another possibility is to not add commands, but instead have the weapons automatically attack in different ways (e.g. spears damaging monsters in the attacked square and in the next square, etc.)


I know this from some game that I just can't remember at the moment.
It might be ToME, it has mechanics very similar to what the OP describes. Powder also has them. ToME's are more involved (actually over the top, if you ask me), Powder's are simpler and work very well.

And a game that has different attacks for each weapon type without explicit commands is Brogue.

[kordi82]

Probably not. I mean, against most enemies you don't NEED any special moves, and then would it be overpowered if you could just behead Shyssiryxius right away?

1. The proposed ideas were just top of my head. I invented them while writing the post. Feel free to add any other that you like.
2. OP would not be an issue if these were penalized properly. This is why for each move I posted a penalty. i.e. not having a shield to deliver stunning blow is pretty big penalty. Player would have to think twice whether he really wants to do it. First of all you have to remove the shield so you loose a turn. Then you risk missing the stunning blow which will be doubly painful as you without shield you are more likely to get hit; pinning opponent to the wall with a spear would leave you with no weapon; missing with an axe would stun you... But as I said, these are top of my head. Happy to collect some more ideas.

3. Oh and for missile weapons I would really love i.e. for spear to have pushback effect or mentionned pinning effect, for thrown axes PV reduction, for thrown sticks and clubs stun and for daggers very high critical rate. Likelihood would be determined based on your weapon level. Spears pushback i.e. 4 times your skill level. At level 15 one would have 60% chance of generating special effect. Rocks, crossbows and bows I would leave as they are. Scugari I have no idea what to do with ;).




Another possibility is to not add commands, but instead have the weapons automatically attack in different ways (e.g. spears damaging monsters in the attacked square and in the next square, etc.)


No I disagree. This would bring no reward/penalty into equation and would be boring. You would still "press forward your way to victory". There would be no decision making involved.

[GordonOverkill]

Hmmm, one should try to make sure not to overdo it. I would not like to see every character hunting for at least one weapon of any possible kind in order to be able to use all the different advantages. There must still be room for specialists. That's a problem that I see with all these active special powers. I like such ideas in order to buff weapons which are otherwise more or less useless... like whips, enabeling them to disarm was my fave of your ideas.
Also this is definitely hard balancing work, even if you give them some disadvantages in return (which I would not make too complicated either... just generally increase their energy cost and it's fine in my eyes). For example extra crit chance for daggers might make phase daggers even more of ultimate super weapons than they already are.
All in all for me "pressing forward to victory" is not the problem... the main problem is some kinds of weapons being more or less totally useless, especially for the ranged weapons.

[gut]

so if I haven't trained swords or daggers I should just leave swords of sharpness and eternium daggers of devastation where they lay? OK. I guess...

EDIT: sarcasm aside, it takes about 5 minutes after finding a good weapon to get it to skill level 8 or so

[GordonOverkill]

What I ment is that I'd not like to see characters of all classes scumming for weapons of all classes in order to be able to use their nice additional options.

[Silfir]

It's definitely food for thought regarding the combat system of ADOM II. For ADOM, the simple walk-into-monsters melee combat system has the merit of already being implemented and working and I'm pretty sure ADOM 1.2.0 is in feature lock for anything but minor tweaks and the features already planned during the campaign.

Personally, I think ADOM offers plenty of strategic options at this very moment, and while the commands are hard to master in general, the simplistic melee combat is one part of the game that beginners have little trouble with. If you make success in melee combat dependant on invoked commands, you'll make the potential player base smaller than it already is. One of the most common complaints about ADOM is that it has too many commands to keep track of.

[kordi82]

Hmmm, one should try to make sure not to overdo it. I would not like to see every character hunting for at least one weapon of any possible kind in order to be able to use all the different advantages. There must still be room for specialists. That's a problem that I see with all these active special powers. I like such ideas in order to buff weapons which are otherwise more or less useless... like whips, enabeling them to disarm was my fave of your ideas.


Very simple balacing tool is to link it to weapon level you have. Moreover to make in incremental and not linear.
i.e. level 1 your chance is 1%, level 2 your chance is 2,5%, level 3 your chance is 4,3% etc.
The progression would be tightly linked to the number of hits you require to achieve certain level. Therefore the greatest % chance increase would be noted at level 15. Since this would not be linear progression but "curved" one prior to level 10 it would be actually kinda hard to use these on experienced monsters. Here you have your balance....
Additionally the chance could be balanced to experience point you receive for killing certain monster. All the variables are already in the game so not that difficult to implement.


As for gray dagger being ultimate weapon with increased critical chance... nah... with what I proposed this would be kinda the opposit. If you would be more prone to criticals using weapon power the last weapon you would use it with would be gray dagger. I do not even know how to explain it to you. Just try to think about it real hard. You would want to use this skill in two situations:
1. for opponents with high PV
2. when you have no choice - you either kill quickly or you are killed.
For 1. gray dagger takes care of it already.
For 2. gray dagger gives you very little advantage.

I believe the propositions I mentioned are all relatively well balanced. My favorite is ability to pin down opponents using spear. But on successful hit you would be left without your main weapon and would have to use your spare one.

BTW.
Do not take it personally but I saw you video when you were playing drakish something and you had a very hard time remembering about acid breath special ability. So I understand your concern about system being over the top... It all comes with experience...

[kordi82]

By accident started double post...




Personally, I think ADOM offers plenty of strategic options at this very moment, and while the commands are hard to master in general, the simplistic melee combat is one part of the game that beginners have little trouble with. If you make success in melee combat dependant on invoked commands, you'll make the potential player base smaller than it already is. One of the most common complaints about ADOM is that it has too many commands to keep track of.

Forward to vicotry system would still be there. This would be something on top of it to make combat more interesting and with more options. The same *complaint* that it has too many command is also Adom's greatest virtue that makes people play it for 15 years and still coming back to it. My personal feeling about people not being able to follow commands is to suggest them playing Mass Effect. They will find it much more enjoyable and less frustrating... and will forget about it 3 days after finishing campaign. (I know I did)

[JellySlayer]

Unless the commands were single button push to activate, I think this would be more annoying than anything else. I already never use class powers that need to be activated (tremendous blows, etc.)

[kordi82]

Unless the commands were single button push to activate, I think this would be more annoying than anything else. I already never use class powers that need to be activated (tremendous blows, etc.)

tremendous blow is quite awful and has very limited usability as it is. It is only worthwhile on monsters that have very high PV and it is *very* risky to use. You are multiplying your damage by 3 and spend time that is required to deliver 4 hits.... Good chances are that if you need it to use on a monster he will be able to kill you in the 3-4 turns you spend on recovery....

On the other hand we have acid breath and you will agree with me that it is very useful skill.

The mentioned powers could work like acid breath. There would be on key binded to weapon class ability. You would press i.e. b and indicated direction. No need to bind it to more than one key as player is usually using one weapon. Some kind of more complex dialog box could pop up if player was wieleding two weapons.

[GordonOverkill]

BTW.
Do not take it personally but I saw you video when you were playing drakish something and you had a very hard time remembering about acid breath special ability. So I understand your concern about system being over the top... It all comes with experience...

Hehe, of course! But don't forget that even I play the game for quite some years and that I am very likely among the top twenty percent of players in terms of performance. Expecting alot more of experience in order to express an oppinion might end up in a very small group discussing the whole thing ;-)

[Stingray1]

It's definitely food for thought regarding the combat system of ADOM II. For ADOM, the simple walk-into-monsters melee combat system has the merit of already being implemented and working and I'm pretty sure ADOM 1.2.0 is in feature lock for anything but minor tweaks and the features already planned during the campaign.

Personally, I think ADOM offers plenty of strategic options at this very moment, and while the commands are hard to master in general, the simplistic melee combat is one part of the game that beginners have little trouble with. If you make success in melee combat dependant on invoked commands, you'll make the potential player base smaller than it already is. One of the most common complaints about ADOM is that it has too many commands to keep track of.

The most valid points in this thread.

Although invoked commands would be cool, hypothetically perhaps if they only kicked in at a certain skill level( or chance on success passing skill check among other ), hope I'm not repeating what somebody else said.