Back after 3 years of not playing

[Overheat]

Got climbing set destroyed in TotHK. Lesson (re-)learned. I do have some questions though.


How do you get enough piety to crown on the Dwarftown altar?
How does Chaos Knight's downside actually affect play, if at all?
Is the only reason to grind herbs for tons of healing now?
Did ACW get nerfed at some point?

[grobblewobble]

How do you get enough piety to crown on the Dwarftown altar?
Sell all your best items to Waldenbrook, pick them up, anger Waldenbrook, re-equip items, kill Waldenbrook, sac gold. Even lawful gods love you for it.


How does Chaos Knight's downside actually affect play, if at all?
You need to juggle around your alignment a little more than with other classes.
It also used to mean that changing your alignment toward L was really tedious. But now we have the "repeat last action" button. So sacrifice 1 gold at a N or L altar and then hold that button for 1 minute or so.


Is the only reason to grind herbs for tons of healing now?
Yes.



Did ACW get nerfed at some point?
afaik he got buffed a little

[Stingray1]

Chaos Knights don't have any downsides that I'm aware of. :p

You know there is another climbing set that side of the world?

Welcome back, have fun exploring the revised Drakalor Chain.

[anon123]

How does Chaos Knight's downside actually affect play, if at all?

Try talking to people and you'll learn quickly. The starting corruptions might even make the talking requirement optional.

Chaos Knights are a tricky class to play, very powerful from the get go, but with a lot of doors closed as long as they're chaotic (and decreased power if not so). Candle-born trollish CKs are brutal, so I'd recommend that combo if you want to check the class out.

Welcome back to ADOM. All the changes since 1.1.1 will prevent you from leaving again for a very long time ;)

[Overheat]

Chaos Knights don't have any downsides that I'm aware of. :p

You know there is another climbing set that side of the world?

Welcome back, have fun exploring the revised Drakalor Chain.

I didn't feel like grinding for 4-5 levels to get my climbing to 100. Also, only had 18 Willpower.

[JellySlayer]

How do you get enough piety to crown on the Dwarftown altar?

Early crownings are a bit harder than they used to be. I find that I normally amass enough gold to crown right around the time I'm thinking about the ToEF. If you want to crown quite early, livesac is probably your main option now, though there's a few other race-specific methods that still work well too (cooked food for hurthlings + summoners).


How does Chaos Knight's downside actually affect play, if at all?

Many quests are unavailable to you as C, most notably the healing quests. As N or L, you will take damage per turn if you don't have fire resistance, and will lose access to all of your sweet class powers. As noted, your starting corruptions can very much make or break a game--starting with something particularly nasty (your body needs a lot of will to hold up, say) can make the early game a nightmare. Chaos knights play very differently from most other classes, and take a bit of getting used to.


Is the only reason to grind herbs for tons of healing now?

Herbs can still train stats, but only up to your potential maximum (actually, there are still a few bugs/exploits to circumvent this). Mountains of stoma are not so useful anymore, but the other herbs more or less work the same. If you're a fan of herbs, gardening has gotten a major buff and is now pretty sweet (you can extract seeds from flowering plants).


Did ACW get nerfed at some point?

The only change to the ACW that I'm aware of is that he is resistant to certain disablers now.

[Overheat]

The only change to the ACW that I'm aware of is that he is resistant to certain disablers now.

Which ones? I just needed one cursed invis potion to finish him. I don't want later guys to die because he isn't like he was in 1.1.1

I learned about the gardening buff, and it is nice if you only get herbs in the big room. Still annoying you give up the only guaranteed wand of cold to get it though.

[JellySlayer]

I think confusion no longer works on the ACW. Maybe paralysis too. I don't think it has been thoroughly documented yet.

Gardening is a good reason to play as a hurthling. They have probably the best skillset for a large number of classes now, IMHO.

[anon123]

I think confusion no longer works on the ACW. Maybe paralysis too. I don't think it has been thoroughly documented yet.

I can confirm paralysis doesn't work.

[Carter]

Which ones? I just needed one cursed invis potion to finish him. I don't want later guys to die because he isn't like he was in 1.1.1

I learned about the gardening buff, and it is nice if you only get herbs in the big room. Still annoying you give up the only guaranteed wand of cold to get it though.

potions don't work every time, my experience is it is dependant on dex but that could just be luck.

[grobblewobble]

Many quests are unavailable to you as C, most notably the healing quests. As N or L, you will take damage per turn if you don't have fire resistance, and will lose access to all of your sweet class powers. As noted, your starting corruptions can very much make or break a game--starting with something particularly nasty (your body needs a lot of will to hold up, say) can make the early game a nightmare. Chaos knights play very differently from most other classes, and take a bit of getting used to.

This explains it better. Rerolling them for good starting corruptions is much worth it (if you are okay with rerolling).

As mentioned, a chaos knight can't do most quests while he is C, because most NPC's will refuse to talk to you (ancient dwarf, anyone in Terinyo, Dak). But he loses his class powers and takes damage while N or L. The easiest way to deal with this:

- be C in the early game, until you find a source of -fire or gain the Immune to Pain talent. Either will negate the damage from alignment.
- Now convert to N or L for the early midgame and do all the quests you like. In the early midgame, your class powers aren't that great yet anyway.
- As soon as you're done with the Mystic, the Ancient Dwarf and whatever quests from Terinyo you wanted to do, switch back to C for good.

When played this way, they don't play *that* much different from other classes imo. Of course, if you want to play them in style and remain C for the whole game it's a different story.

[Stingray1]

The only real downside I could find playing them as Chaos Knights was the Eternal Guardian being an asshole ass well and you have to find a way past them.

They are basically unstoppable war machines from the word go, their class powers and crowning gift and moonsickle just making them gods from midgame to the end.

Edit - Actually, the equipment isn't that important even. I took one naked and unarmed from the word go all the way to D:24 where he drowned through player idiocy.

[Overheat]

The main problem with Chaos Knights is you have to get everything you want done in one go as N, or it will be a disaster converting the second time.

What is the "safe" way to do stuff on a chaotic altar? Darkness?

Also, the lack of scumming makes the pre-ToEF hole more obvious. After Pyramid, Griffyard, and TotHK, you really just sit around and do nothing until you feel like taking on the tower.

[JellySlayer]

Well, there's the Maze... But if you've done TotHK and have recovered the Water Orb, you're strong enough for the Tower anyway, IMHO.

The safest way to use chaotic altars is locked doors.

[Stingray1]

Wrt altars, if you don't have door creation yet, invisibility will also help. I would say in cavernous levels you must have doors, invisibility or very good perception at least to feel safer.

I agree especially with CKs. You have killed everything you found and now wonder whether you can take on the tower.

If you have found moonsickle and were crowned with the body armour or =Fire you are more than ready. I've found that most characters of mine were ready for the Tower after all the side-quests have been completed. Well, not confidently ready, but most of them succeeded.

Anyway, we are going to see locations and quests added to the game.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

- be C in the early game, until you find a source of -fire or gain the Immune to Pain talent. Either will negate the damage from alignment.
- Now convert to N or L for the early midgame and do all the quests you like. In the early midgame, your class powers aren't that great yet anyway.
- As soon as you're done with the Mystic, the Ancient Dwarf and whatever quests from Terinyo you wanted to do, switch back to C for good.
This is why Chaos Knights don't appeal to me at the moment, even though the idea itself is great.

I just don't like alignment juggling. I always like to identify with the characters, and roleplay them a bit. I can roleplay a chaos knight who remains C. I can roleplay a chaos knight who converts to N or even L. But converting to do some quests and then go back to C... it's just not realistic.

This is also the main reason why I'm not attracted to doing ultras (the other reason being that they make the game very long and I find it long enough with normal endings).

I hope at some point TB adds some chaotic quests (or just quests available to everyone) so that CK's that remain C have something to do in the early game. I fully agree with the fact that CK's have a more difficult (and totally different) game, with the world turned against them for being C. But the problem is that right now, they just don't have anything to do at that point in the game. If you can't do the druid or elder quests, can't do Thrundarr's quest, can't do the arena, etc... you'll probably end up grinding mindlessly before the ToEF, and that sucks.

And all that...

...to become the most stupid follower of chaos ever...

...so that it's not attractive to play a pure-C CK.

[Stingray1]

@ Al-Khwarizmi

They can still aspire to become chaos gods, that involves no grinding or alignment changes. It gives the player plenty to do.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Yes, that's right. So all needed would be things in the early game for chaotic CK's to do, and then it would be great to play a pure CK.

[anon123]

I just don't like alignment juggling. I always like to identify with the characters, and roleplay them a bit. I can roleplay a chaos knight who remains C. I can roleplay a chaos knight who converts to N or even L. But converting to do some quests and then go back to C... it's just not realistic.

It doesn't make much sense, but that's because of the way alignment works in ADOM. Making a token effort to look like a good guy and be able to reap benefits of such to advance a hidden agenda, i.e. the intention of the player behind doing this, is in line with what an evil character would do. If that RFE to be able to lie about your alignment is implemented, this would improve (and it'd also buff Charisma).

Agree with the spoiler too, right now the only way to get a "happy" ending with a pure chaotic CK is a UCG, with all the extra playtime and difficulty that entails.

[Stingray1]

Yes, that's right. So all needed would be things in the early game for chaotic CK's to do, and then it would be great to play a pure CK.

There is plenty to do:
early= CoC, Terinyo, Oulaw village, UD, Gremlins.
A bit later=TotHK, Pyramid, DF, ID.
a bit later=Library, Mino Maze, Bugcave, ToEF.

[grobblewobble]

The main problem with Chaos Knights is you have to get everything you want done in one go as N, or it will be a disaster converting the second time.
Not really. If you are C and the N god hates you, my experience is that he will stop hating you after one punishment. So say you want to convert a second time. The first time you sacrifice one gold you get punished (but you can prepare for it), the second time "nothing else happens".


What is the "safe" way to do stuff on a chaotic altar? Darkness?
I'm not so sure about darkness. Can an orc still sac you? What I do is pacify the level, or be invisible (if possible) and lock the door.


Also, the lack of scumming makes the pre-ToEF hole more obvious. After Pyramid, Griffyard, and TotHK, you really just sit around and do nothing until you feel like taking on the tower.
You can crown first! The crowning gifts of chaos knights are superb, at least some of them. Then get the water orb like Jellyslayer said and the ToEF should be easy. If you still don't feel sure, get the shield of raw steel! That will make the ToEF a breeze, for sure.

Regarding the Eternal Guardian, bypassing him with teleportation is much easier than getting the ring, anyway.


This is why Chaos Knights don't appeal to me at the moment, even though the idea itself is great.
I agree. I'm hoping for some sort of change, but not sure how it should be done. Any ideas?

[Al-Khwarizmi]

There is plenty to do:
early= CoC, Terinyo, Oulaw village, UD, Pyramid, ID
a bit later=DF, Gremlins, TotHK, Library, Mino Maze, Bugcave, ToEF.
Not enough pre-ToEF stuff to get you experienced enough for the ToEF, except if you stop at some of those places and grind, or go to the ID, but that's also grinding in my book.

[Stingray1]

Not enough pre-ToEF stuff to get you experienced enough for the ToEF, except if you stop at some of those places and grind, or go to the ID, but that's also grinding in my book.

I shall conduct a quick experiment run tonight, I don't think you need to hop the ID though, I think just diving and coming back will be sufficient. Let's see.

[anon123]

There is plenty to do:
early= CoC, Terinyo, Oulaw village, UD, Gremlins.

There isn't much for you in Terinyo as long as you're chaotic, to the point I skip it entirely when starting.

[Stingray1]

There isn't much for you in Terinyo as long as you're chaotic, to the point I skip it entirely when starting.

There is experience and food.

[anon123]

There is experience

You like roleplaying this class, it seems :)

[Stingray1]

You like roleplaying this class, it seems :)

Yes, I refuse to not, I've had 2 CKs on D:50 and they couldn't pull those levers, it was simply too illogical a think to do. Things is not looking too bright though, got hit to old by a ghost lord while cooking a stupid corpse for no reason with hurthling CK. Hope I'll find some potions of youth soon. Have =Fire from crowning and moonsickle and vampiric weapon, so regen not a problem at moment. :)

[anon123]

I've had 2 CKs on D:50 and they couldn't pull those levers, it was simply too illogical a think to do.

I have yet to get one that far, but I reckon I'd feel the same. It's still a win, I guess (as in, it ends the game with an epilogue text), but hardly a nice one.


Things is not looking too bright though, got hit to old by a ghost lord while cooking a stupid corpse for no reason with hurthling CK. Hope I'll find some potions of youth soon. Have =Fire from crowning and moonsickle and vampiric weapon, so regen not a problem at moment. :)

Potions of youth are pretty rare, but you might get lucky and generate a potion shop. Otherwise, be careful with ghosts and shadow wyrms until reaching the Casino, which probably has at least one.

Moon Sickle is stellar for chaos knights. I basically never ever used it, until I started playing this class. Great base damage, the corruption heals you, and two-handers get 150% the usual Strength bonus in 1.2.0. At that point, you can (and probably should) raid Darkforge head on if you haven't done it already.

[Overheat]

So if you are going for a CK gate closer, you Moon Sickle it up as deep as you can go, then turn N quick for Unicorn cleansing, turn evil, crown, and go for the win? The maze might be needed for the PoCC.

[Stingray1]

What do you need PoCC and cleansing for, madness. You are a ChAoS kNiGhT. Corruption = POWER.

Why would you want to close the gate as a CK?

[Overheat]

What do you need PoCC and cleansing for, madness. You are a ChAoS kNiGhT. Coorruption = POWER.

Too much of a good thing, man.

[Stingray1]

Too much of a good thing, man.

Will turn you into a purple j. I love the thematics in this game.


At that point, you can (and probably should) raid Darkforge head on if you haven't done it already.

DF was very disappointing, only staves and clothes. All kinds of clothes, not fitting for a CK. It is actually DF's fault that in the top lvl this guy got aged. Maybe ID will yield a few potions of youth, no extra shops were encountered.

[anon123]

DF was very disappointing, only staves and clothes. All kinds of clothes, not fitting for a CK.

This is why I was opposed to breaking teleportation in DFG. Besides the quest artifacts for those who are into that, the only good things you are guaranteed are the crown of science and some gold. In most of my games I don't get anything particularly great.

I'm thinking, would it be too overpowered to let chaos knights use corrupting essence items like the shield of raw steel with a decreased penalty? Or perhaps give them a small regenerative property since they slowly corrupt you?

[Stingray1]

I think that decreased penalty(whoa, I wouldn't call it that) would make thematic sense. Wow, that word thematic is used a lot lately. I better google it to find out its exact meaning.

In all honesty we just need to get TB to fix character leveling(indirectly), then most ADOM player's complaints about class powers, talents, having to grind, having to scum and learning magic will be sorted and characters don't have to enter D:50 at xl 30.

[Overheat]

Is Cat Lord immune to any of the old tricks? I am somewhat far away, but I am grinding for water before ToEF and the dive. Only got 7 waters all game.

[_Ln_]

I'm thinking, would it be too overpowered to let chaos knights use corrupting essence items like the shield of raw steel with a decreased penalty? Or perhaps give them a small regenerative property since they slowly corrupt you?

It's like getting crowned early with the armor didn't guarantee the victory. ;)
In any case, 1 hp/turn or still not worth it.

With regeneration, though and taking into account Jelly's experience with neglibility of multiple doomings we'll get the following rig:
Crown of Chaos [+0, +15] +10 speed,
Medal of chaos [+12, +3],
Celestrix, [+13, +13]
spiked armor [-6, +35] +8 St
Sceptre of Chaos +8 Ma, +8 speed,
Shield of Raw Steel [+18, +12] +8 To,
boots of great speed [+5, +0] +100 speed

78 PV, +118 speed, +8 Ma, +11 St, +8 To, +6 hp/turn.
Quintuple doom and quadruple curse? Doesn't matter, had sex.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

In all honesty we just need to get TB to fix character leveling(indirectly), then most ADOM player's complaints about class powers, talents, having to grind, having to scum and learning magic will be sorted and characters don't have to enter D:50 at xl 30.
Big +1 to that, I think it is one of the most important positive changes that could be made to the game.

[Stingray1]

Not enough pre-ToEF stuff to get you experienced enough for the ToEF, except if you stop at some of those places and grind, or go to the ID, but that's also grinding in my book.



I shall conduct a quick experiment run tonight, I don't think you need to hop the ID though, I think just diving and coming back will be sufficient. Let's see. Well, just to report back. Sorry for taking so long, I did not get a chance to play much during the weekend.

So I random rolled one CK once, turned out to be a literate, Book born male Hurthling. Decided to do it in true Al-Khwarizmi style.

Anyway, just died to a Greater Moloch on I:60 after miss-timing one attack. That is what you get for being greedy. Was at xl 19 after clearing Terinyo, Holeinthewall, UD, CoC up to Khelavaster( in restrospect I don't think a pure CK would save him ), Gremlin cave, Pyramid, DF and TotHK. Dwarftown was not yet cleared. Hadn't killed HMV either yet.

I think one Greater Moloch would have given me more than enough levels for the tower.

My plan was shoot a few arrows at MaLaKaI and see how it goes otherwise 'steal' the sceptre and then clear the assassin guild, get the water orb and maybe the library and mino maze prior to ToEF depending on how strong I felt to do the tower.

I only crowned, which didn't take long(loads of cooked corpses.:)). No pre/post-crowns. I did not farm any herbs just picked them up as I discovered them nor did I once use the Gardening skill. I did not even scout the entire big room, only about half. I did Pick Pocket a little for the thieves guild skills only and only 'neutral' monsters. I did not grind any levels for xp or items except for scouting UC:5 completely for a potion of booze to recharge my wand of cold. I descended as soon as I found the stairs in the ID.

I don't know at which level you guys feel ready for the ToEF, but I think there certainly is enough to do for a pure CK prior to the Tower.

I'll attempt this again at a later date again the first random CK. I have learned a little during this run, so the next can only go better and faster.