Your opinions on making PC stop multiple turn actions when spotting a hostile?

[Stingray1]

Currently the player character will continue to perform certain actions that take multiple turns to complete until he/she is interrupted by a monster attacking him/her. These actions include stuff like cooking, reading books, smithing, making rations, digging, eating, fletching, etc.

I think it acceptable to expect the game to query the player whether the character should continue with his/her current actions whenever the character sees a hostile monster and not only once the monster attacks the PC. Even maybe with a configuration variable similar to the walk_carefully one. Of course when the player answers yes the action should continue until the character is attacked and not query the player on every turn, but this point is also definitely debatable. Maybe there can be 3 possible answers. Stop, continue for one turn and ask me again, just continue until I'm attacked.

[Silfir]

I do not think that is acceptable. These are tasks that require concentration. The reason PCs spot monsters that actually enter the line of sight is that they're currently exploring the dungeon and carefully watching their surroundings. While they're studying a spellbook, handling cooking equipment, smithing, fletching etc, they can't constantly pause to watch their surroundings - and it's reasonable that they will only notice monsters at the very last moment or not at all. (The monsters have seen the player, can tell they're occupied and are going to approach as silently as they can. You're setting yourself up perfectly for an ambush.)

Finding relatively safe spots to perform tasks that require concentration is one of the many challenges players are put through while exploring dungeons. At times, that challenge can be a major source of tension or excitement. You just ran out of Frost Bolt far away from the wilderness; can you make it through the spellbook? Can you risk it?

I think the way the game handles this right now is perfect. You get a confirmation prompt that you're about to engage in risky business, and you have to make a strategic decision based on risk. Eliminate the risk, and you eliminate the decision and make the game just a tiny bit shallower for no reason at all.

[anon123]

I think it would be bad for a few reasons:

in the off chance a peaceful monster enters your LOS and just chills around you, you would still get bothered by a prompt.
even though this would gain you some extra turns to act when something shows up around the corner, most players will try to keep these long actions for a safe place within possibility (e.g. not D:45 where this feature would be welcome, because you could soak a punch from a greater moloch), or take measures not to be interrupted by wandering monsters to begin with.
removing a small risk vs. reward decision aspect of the game like Silfir mentioned above.

[Stingray1]

Well, this has taught me to make myself invisible and lock doors even for simple things like eating and changing body armour and that just feels a bit too much. But anyway, I'll just keep doing that and hope a ghost isn't near.

[SirTheta]

I'm not hot on the other stuff, but a Y/y/n prompt would actually be pretty welcome for this (instead of having to mash 'y') - I'd certainly vote for a suggestion in that regard.

[Stingray1]

Can I then ask that the Alertness skill, Listening skill, Perception attribute or being a female character gives a chance for the character to notice a hostile monster approaching? In that order of determination, Alertness having the biggest influence and being a female the smallest.

[rmcin329]

This would certainly give the listening skill an interesting use.

[GordonOverkill]

Can I then ask that the Alertness skill, Listening skill, Perception attribute or being a female character gives a chance for the character to notice a hostile monster approaching? In that order of determination, Alertness having the biggest influence and being a female the smallest.

Like this :-) This might add a nice, little facete to the atmosphere!

[Stingray1]

I wonder why monsters are displayed on the screen while performing such actions, if I understand previous posters' argument monsters should be 'invisible' then.

[GordonOverkill]

Well, in that case the PC should also not be able to see what's behind him etc. Might be a little too much realism.

[Stingray1]

Is that what ppl refer to as a strawman?

[Silfir]

Arguing against a strawman is when people construct a crappy position and rebut that instead of rebutting arguments that have actually been made. Fortunately for GordonOverkill, you provided the crappy argument for him:


I wonder why monsters are displayed on the screen while performing such actions, if I understand previous posters' argument monsters should be 'invisible' then.

That's just pedantic and devoid of substance. The display "displays" such creatures for milliseconds at most. ADOM is a video game, not a simulation. It reflects reality only insofar as doing so makes for a better game. There's no sleep in ADOM either, for dozens of excellent reasons. Whether a given mechanic would be "realistic" or otherwise is of very limited importance.

If by "previous poster" you've been referring to me, you've thoroughly misunderstood anyway. No one's been suggesting monsters become "invisible" by any stretch while the PC is occupied. (One might even wonder whether you've intentionally misunderstood, thereby creating ... a strawman.) With the tasks mentioned, there really is no way of going about them that's going to keep you fully alert and ready to instantly react to dangers. Reading a spellbook is no joke - remember the consequences of failing to read one -, Smithing takes a great deal of effort and creates a lot of noise that would mask the approach of any creature anyway, fletching requires you to drop your weapons and use your hands to perform fiddly precision work, and so on. Implementing this "realistically" would end up assigning individual activities a "noise value" and other factors that determine how it would be handled, but why go through all this work when the current solution is satisfactory? To represent the disadvantage of being distracted and not alert, creatures are given the chance to sneak up on you - perfectly fair, perfectly thematically appropriate, perfectly balanced.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

I also think the current behavior is pretty natural. When this happens to me, I think "damn, an orc sneaked up on me while I was reading the book!" and I have never seen it as unfair, only as something to be careful about.

[Blasphemous]

I think Silfir got it right, things that require concentration and occupy attention should not allow the PC to notice monsters until they are very close.
The way this works right now feels just right to me.

[Stingray1]

Fair enough. For the record I was referring to Silfir and anon123's posts.

I'll just keep equipping protective items and lock doors when performing such tasks, I must say I kind of like that mini-game. But I would still love to have my RFE (http://www.adom.de/forums/project.php?issueid=2215) to have pre-selected outfits 'saved' to make these efforts less cumbersome.

[_Ln_]

Personally I think it would be nice if the game sets DV to 1 (lowest value) for the duration of continuous action requiring concentration. Right now when I eat some food while being attacked from all 8 directions, I always picture my PC as Jackie Chan. Especially if the PC is using a shield.

[Stingray1]

Personally I think it would be nice if the game sets DV to 1 (lowest value) for the duration of continuous action requiring concentration. Right now when I eat some food while being attacked from all 8 directions, I always picture my PC as Jackie Chan. Especially if the PC is using a shield.

Yeah, well currently it is best to equip 2 shields while performing these actions, except for smithing of course. That is exactly what I currently do, 2 shields and item of invisibility. Webs down the corridors and room filled with webs and all doors to the room locked.

[GordonOverkill]

My strategy: Close the doors (well, not always, to be honest x-) ) and cross the fingers!

[Stingray1]

I've had some bad experiences with mid leveled characters, so I'm extra cautious when it comes to this.

[anon123]

Yeah, well currently it is best to equip 2 shields while performing these actions, except for smithing of course. That is exactly what I currently do, 2 shields and item of invisibility. Webs down the corridors and room filled with webs and all doors to the room locked.

Wow! I only lock doors, and maybe throw invisibility in if it feels necessary. But don't let anyone tell you your method is overkill, there's no such thing as being too careful in this game. ;)

Spellbooks I try to read in the plains whenever possible. For some reason, I like the picture of my character taking some time off crawling dark dungeons and reading in a calm, open-air place :)

[Stingray1]

Yes, wilderness is an excellent place, but it is not always practical to go back up to the wilderness. Hence, one is forced really to try and cover all bases while performing these actions. Don't worry, I doubt anyone will convince me otherwise. I strive to make every character successful, so I won't let some monster ruin that.

As an aside, we briefly mentioned Listening earlier. Although it is an excellent skill, letting you know what is going on, on the level; I feel there is at least one thing that it lets you know about that doesn't seem appropriate. That being the existence of an altar on the level, to me something else should maybe determine whether the PC senses a pious aura, I'm not certain what it should be though? For thematic reasons. Mana? But that is also not entirely connected.

[anon123]

As an aside, we briefly mentioned Listening earlier. Although it is an excellent skill, letting you know what is going on, on the level; I feel there is at least one thing that it lets you know about that doesn't seem appropriate. That being the existence of an altar on the level, to me something else should maybe determine whether the PC senses a pious aura, I'm not certain what it should be though? For thematic reasons. Mana? But that is also not entirely connected.

That sounds reasonable, although the message is a bit ambiguous. Does "sensing" a pious aura means the PC hears something, or that he feels it?

On a sidenote, I for one would like to see Listening extended as an active skill. Right now, it always says for a short moment everything is silent when 'a'pplied unless you're deaf, and that doesn't make a lot of sense when you're e.g. getting swarmed by a tension room in the ToEF (apparently those monsters shut up and the extremely hot fire doesn't sizzle?).

There could be different messages for special levels, dungeon features (e.g. applying it in a level with a pool could have a chance to say you hear water splashing in the distance/nearby, applying it standing on the Mana anomaly could say you hear a strange hum, etc.). It would add some depth to the game.

[Stingray1]

That sounds reasonable, although the message is a bit ambiguous. Does "sensing" a pious aura means the PC hears something, or that he feels it?

Well, off the top of me head, I can only recall 2 instances where sense is used. The other being 'tension'. In most other cases wrt the Listening skill the game uses the word 'hear' and not "You sense a distant wind." or "You sense the sound of rushing water!", etc.


On a sidenote, I for one would like to see Listening extended as an active skill. Right now, it always says for a short moment everything is silent when 'a'pplied unless you're deaf, and that doesn't make a lot of sense when you're e.g. getting swarmed by a tension room in the ToEF (apparently those monsters shut up and the extremely hot fire doesn't sizzle?).

There could be different messages for special levels, dungeon features (e.g. applying it in a level with a pool could have a chance to say you hear water splashing in the distance/nearby, applying it standing on the Mana anomaly could say you hear a strange hum, etc.). It would add some depth to the game.

Personally, I would prefer if the game tells you it is automatically used, like when you try to apply Healing with a non-healer. That would also eliminate one of the Confusion staggering circumvention exploits.

[anon123]

Personally, I would prefer if the game tells you it is automatically used, like when you try to apply Healing with a non-healer.

That could work too, and it would be much easier to implement. :D